Millions of Dead Genders: A MOGAI Retrospective

[@lily_lxndr]

Two years later, this video has a sequel! Another deep-dive into a committed online movement - this time, the Aesthetics Wiki and the internet’s fixation on vibes. Millions of Dead Vibes: How Aesthetics Hurt Art kzbin.info/www/bejne/eX7Nqauwpp1riJI

[@andycordy5190]

Yes. This is all working in the same direction. I'm all in favour of learning from the lessons of the past whenever possible which makes the failure of the internet as a satisfactory archive in the long term into a significant problem. Your emphasis on self discovery is very important. Models and archetypes are all well and good but the individual is not too easy to fit into any category in my experience and a critical gaze is very important to self development. What I think we see a lot is that a critique like "that is not like me" can easily become "I don't like that" or worse " if I'm like that then I don't like myself". Milo, who is new to me, has an admirable modesty around representation. When we're young, we are hungry for models with whom to identify. Some people are comfortable with that role, others not, but in expressing opinions freely on the internet maybe we have a duty to shoulder the responsibility of influencing the opinion of others and therefore the need to act responsibly. It's too easy to just open up the mic and flap your jaw without thinking about the consequences which I regard as the primary reason why so much offensive material exists and will continue to be generated. Any label upon me is open to mis interpretation. Partial liberation has not helped the way I feel about people's assumptions about me. It's a broadly human issue how assumptions cause offense (racism, homophobia, etc) because labels misrepresent individuals and for that reason, however many labels there are, I will be wanting to debunk them.

[@Eeter26]

Love the accordion beat, good music taste my dude

[@luketaylor7262]

"It encourages us to stick a name on a confusion instead of trying to work through it." When I clicked on this video, I was a bit nervous it would just be tearing apart the MOGAI concept uncritically. But this... this is exactly what I've been trying to express for years. Those labels were very confusing for me when I was questioning my identity, and I'm just fortunate that they didn't cause me too much trouble. I also agree with the online-only issue. The more I got involved with LGBT+ people irl the less I cared about any of that discourse.

[@procyon2911]

For me, I've begun to care less and less about gender and sexuality. Microlabels are just for me to tell myself who I am. In actuality? I don't even care. To me, I just use they for everything unless I know someone's pronouns.

[@Nakia11798]

My biggest issue with MOGAI is that it invents terms for things that already have definitions or aren't abnormal enough to need a term. For example, we don't really need a term for people who are only attracted to people they know, that's extremely common. And we don't need a term for every type of GNC people out there.

[@BeepBeepRayya]

Some people feel that these labels bring them more peace, though. Some people feel that putting specific labels on how they feel help keep their thoughts and feelings organized. It’s like journaling. I understand that you don’t like them, but many do. Please respect other people’s views too.

[@malum9478]

@@BeepBeepRayya completely ignoring the point of what's being said.

[@jyjaeskz]

@@malum9478 Do people need to find their real gender if they're fine putting a label on it and get enough peace of mind to just life life as themselves, knowing they're not sure? (Just a thought I had right now, haven't thought about it much)

[@cmmusic4721]

You hit the nail on the head with the “they’re all 13 (so maybe we can just chill)” and it being about validation because that’s just what kids need at that age, someone to listen and give them some acceptance.

[@I_always_have_been_Daniel49]

Exactly! Instead of telling us we're too young!

[@Xvladin]

But couldn't it go the other way too? That they're 13 and are impressionable so we should be careful? Or that their validation seeking isn't healthy or good?

[@cmmusic4721]

@@Xvladin I think the validation/acceptance seeking is part of their process of entering the world trying to find belonging and community, so imo, being gentle with them and not judging them too harshly is the best response

[@quinnfarris]

Gotta say, as someone who fought in the trenches of the great gender wars... those 13yo stargenders had insaaane hatemail game

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

@@quinnfarris | Makes sense. 13/14 year olds make for _fantastic_ digital shock troopers. At that age the brain has developed to a point where it's capable of coming up with genuinely hurtful insults, while ALSO lacking the maturity/emotional intelligence to understand just how cruel/petty it's actually being. There's a reason why that age is so hard for most parents.

[@sugaredyoongi]

An interesting thing about the internet is that a post made by a 13 year old and a post made by an adult are gonna look the same. You can't see age through text, and even if you know the person is 13, it's not gonna have the same impact on you as seeing a literal child in front of you. The amount of shit people say to teenager online would just be completely insane in real life

[@willfreitas6244]

You can absolutely tell when a post is made by a child compared to an adult.

[@TheRealMikanTsumiki]

@@willfreitas6244 read Trump's tweets and tell me you can't imagine a child saying

[@ccfffvbbbbbffg1774]

@@willfreitas6244 Eh, not really. You can sure take a guess when it's written really poorly but even then it could be someone not used to English. I'd say you have a good case to make when someone displays a lack of understanding as far as stuff like how the world works though.

[@kitkatmelon]

@@TheRealMikanTsumiki LMAO TRUE

[@Hayden_Cat]

I’m stupid and autistic I hate myself I’m sorry

[@briankai4936]

Mogai started as well-meaning idea, but it's fundamentally flawed because, at least the way I see it, language will never be able to completely describe our experience with ANYTHING. Two people can go their entire lives never feeling "sad" in the same way, but they'll both say they've felt sad because that's all the information we need to understand their basic experience. It's the same with gender and sexuality. My gender may not be the same as any other trans man, and I may not experience being aromantic the same as another aromatic person, but I use these labels because it's all the information I need.

[@Nao-ze5sz]

That may be all the information you need, but what if someone else feels better having a microlabel? I don't see how it can be flawed specifically because everyone is different, and some might prefer having words for every little experience

[@suranumitu7734]

@@Nao-ze5sz Gender is primarily a *social* category. It's a signifier (or: a conventional cluster of signifiers) of intelligibility between members of a group with a shared cultural semiotic system. Highly individualized microlabels fail to communicate anything meaningful on a broader social level. I wanna stress that I'm not trying to invalidate people's attempts to make sense of their subjective lived experiences. I see gender as fundamentally contingent, there is no right or wrong, no natural or real way to relate to a gender; gender is not an innate feeling, no inner truth connected to an eternal inner self. It is, as I said, a contingent social construct used for interpersonal communication. Microlabels are valid, sure, but they are not genders in the same way that male, female, or even nonbinary are. In the long run, I would love to see the social significance of traditional genders to vanish entirely, but as of now that's not the case and I don't think further multiplying the number of identities is the way to go.

[@Nao-ze5sz]

@@suranumitu7734 why do you get to judge and decide that? If other people think their gender is best represented by a micro label then why does it matter what you think a microlabel means?

[@delarlie9186]

In my experience, people rarely JUST use a microlabel. most people I've seen have labels they use for the purpose of social communication, and then more specific labels they use to find people w more niche experiences OR just to be able to put a word to an experience they have.

[@purgxzur1]

To be honest I get that perspective too though I do think mogai still deserves to exist and I'm glad it exist. We will never truly be able to put an incomprehensible feeling, a set of firing neurons into any language but just saying that doesn't mean there's no point in trying if it makes you happy. If hyperspecific labels make someone feel seen then I feel they deserve to exist

[@andrewlynch4126]

Well shit I read the title as “Millions of dead gamers” thought this would be a meme video

[@bryce4395]

lol that's much better than my case i forgot about this tab or a while and it was seen as "millions of dead g..." and for whatever goddamn reason my mind went "girls?"

[@andrewlynch4126]

@@juliannacaskey8831 if you’re talking about me then no I don’t teach lol

[@gaogao9542]

Rip in peace

[@boozle8125]

@@juliannacaskey8831 Did we have the same english teacher because mine was also named andrew lynch

[@yat_ii]

SAME AND I SWEAR I SAW AN AMONGUS CHARACTER IN THE THUMBNAIL

[@reverendmothercheryl2276]

Excellent presentation! I’m a 70 year old transgender woman and it does seem to me that the narrative does favour the younger people seeking to learn who they are. To me, this is beautiful, and the creativity is astounding. It makes me wish that all of this had happened 50 or 60 years ago. The only problem is that when trans people begin to trash other trans people. It feels the same as the bigotry that I experienced from transphobic cis people in the 1980s. My admonition is that if you’re not supporting other people’s self exploration, then you very likely aren’t supportive of your own and are lost in your own fears of what other people think of you.

[@zesty6781]

I’m almost in tears right now. As someone who’s growing up in a conservative part of Canada I’ve never met any trans person over the age of 20, if ever. Idk this seems really stupid but it makes me feel better to know that some of us get the chance to grow up? Sorry if this is too personal in any way

[@icaca9872]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It really truly helps hearing an elder lgbt person.

[@lizlee8715]

You go girl!

[@Raw774]

I wish there were more people like you. I find I'm as nervous talking to binary trans people as I am cis people at times

[@beatqueenofcrud]

i want to give you a fucking nobel prize rn tbh

[@StormRyan]

I scrolled down 19 minutes in to begin typing my comment because I felt like I had a pretty good understanding of everything you had explained so far, and I'm glad I didn't pause the video because hearing my own voice made me freeze up. I've been doing a lot of self reflecting in the past year about how my online presence and the ideologies I pushed effected people in my community so first off, thank you for including me in the video. I took this video (and a few others) down yesterday after a much needed content review, but I will admit I mainly took my mogai videos down for the bullying. although my opinions and approach on some things have changed, my view was still pretty "this doesn't make any sense to me therefore I'll just leave it alone." when it came to mogai (prior to this video). My views on transmedicalism shifted after removing myself from an echo chamber of seeking cis approval, and even more so in the last 3 months while I've been consuming media in an effort to detach myself completely from something that played such a huge role in my faith. okok now for what I actually wanted to say about your video: AMAZING. I think it goes without saying that this is the mogai video that should have been made originally. you educated a variety of viewers in a very respectful way on a topic that neither shames nor romanticizes it vs the way I would not only shame the audience but convince them that they were undoubtedly incompetent for showing an ounce of empathy for the victims I was harassing. the amount of effort you put into this video was insane, the research and interview you included to help give the viewer more of an inside view besides just "this is what mogai is" is something I hope more trans youtubers catch onto especially when so many people who watch our videos are seeking guidance and education. every word you said in your conclusion gave me a lot more comfort in what I hope to be the future for the queer community, thank you for this video.

[@lily_lxndr]

Holy shit! I have to say, I wasn't expecting to hear from you. Thanks for taking the time to watch and reach out. I'm glad you got something out of the project. All the best.

[@lily_lxndr]

Out of curiosity... how'd you even find this video?

[@StormRyan]

Lily Alexandre milo’s playlist!

[@lily_lxndr]

@@StormRyan oh cool! didn't know i was on there!

[@jelly1592]

I'm so glad you've taken a look back and grown from your experience. With all the recent drama, it's a breath of fresh air.

[@marist1079]

Honestly this explanation makes so much sense. While I don’t see Xenogenders or microlabels as inherently wrong, I think they could be a good way to express yourself. They fall into the age-old trap of trying to assign a label to every single point on the gender spectrum when that literally impossible. Humans and our gender isn’t “black and white” enough for us to categorize it so specifically. Its why more overarching labels exist, even if there is variation between those who identify within a label.

[@Sotha_Sil]

As an autistic person xenogenderd are so confusing and I’m called ableist for asking questions and I’m just so mad that allistic people are calling me ableist because I can’t understand “cake gender,” feeling fluffy and soft like cake. I have a really bad expirence with people who only have mild autism getting madd at me

[@tentativegazer]

​​@@Sotha_Sil Hey so I know I'm replying super late but I sort of get where you're coming from (although almost certainly with less intense autism) What I usually do when I see a weird gender/sexuality thing I don't get is just move on. It's easier that way, I don't really understand at all how someone could feel they have a shark/rot/wind gender (all ones I've seen) but tbh I don't really need to understand. It's way way way easier to just go the path of least resistance, if you don't really understand where their gender comes from I think it's best to assume you don't really need to. I totally get wanting to ask questions, but doing so often just causes more friction than ignoring it does. I understand if getting told "just don't bother" isn't really helpful advice to you, but as someone who's binary myself I can't give deep insights into why someone might feel that way.

[@xilj4002]

I don't even think it's a trap or an issue if people are labeling everything. We have overarching inclusive labels for many things, but we are a species that likes organization and language shortcuts. The issue is forgetting microlabels are under bigger labels, and ignoring how they relate to each other

[@alexrose20]

I'm neurodivergent and I've spent days reading about genders to see if there was any specific label that fit me. It was super confusing and I realized that it was silly to waste so much time finding a label that no one will know about. I realized that gender is an expansive universe and that my gender is its own little planet floating in space. I identify as nonbinary because it doesn't put me in a little box and there's no single way to define the nonbinary experience.

[@orangeworm]

it's not odd at all that neurodivergent folks can feel a greater disconnection from gender than neurotypicals bc gender is literally a construct. and the way down of us may perceive it and interact with it is similar to how we may not understand or reject social norms. these things don't really matter as much as surviving every day and pursuing our interests.

[@waterwraith1189]

@@kaiyodei How many more years are you going to have this creepy obsession with trans people and never do an ounce of actual research? It’s so bizarre to see you STILL in such a state, so sad.

[@gaymess8678]

Im not neurodivergent but I relate to this so much, I used to identify as cis, then genderneutral and now im just going with nonbinary, im still not sure what my pronouns are but thats ok

[@alexrose20]

i did not expect so many ppl to relate this community is so cool 😳

[@mparagames]

@@waterwraith1189 i'm confused, what is the context here? You talked like you have known this person for a while

[@MiloStewart]

In an often cruel online trans community, taking the time to show compassion and understanding for the experiences of trans/questioning teenagers online is such a powerful moment. This video does a lot of work - trying to understand /why/ MOGAI identities became a thing, thinking about how they could be helpful or harmful in a teenager's coming out experience, making nerdy connections about internet culture and documentation of queer history, and giving some important ways to understand and respond to the outrage to these identities. Such an excellent video essay! Thanks for including me in this project!

[@alexrose20]

this video and this comment has led me to subscribe to you. I haven't even seen your videos yet just scrolled but sometimes you just know lol 🤗

[@ilexdiapason]

i hope you're doing well since All That happened to you a few years ago, milo!

[@yonkerz6456]

stop influencing young people to be something they’re not just to be “different”

[@lizziestired]

Yonkers stfu

[@stolenbyfairiesmorrigan5085]

You are brave, you were targeted so so young (probably precisely for that reason) and you still speak up, helping those who might be in a similar situation to you all those years ago. Honestly, the people who still feel the need to dislike your every video should probably do some self-reflecting, it can't be healthy for them.

[@zkme2734]

i just stopped caring about gender. i am the person i am and thats fine.

[@dreamingneon1274]

same :D

[@averageknockoff]

That's what I'm trying to do, I just want to exist but being young it's hard for me

[@NIHIL_EGO]

This. Some would accuse me of wanting to destroy gender, masculinity and femininity, and oh my stars, they couldn't be more right.

[@quillclock]

I say fuck it, be who you are. let others apply labels if necessary because no one will know your self assigned label without getting to know you first. never let yourself be easily defined let alone apply a label to yourself. you are you. be uniquely you. edit: my option has nothing to do with gender but still applies.

[@RoosSkywalker]

Yeah, fuck labels and pronouns. If it means that much to someone, I will have the basic respect to use their preference, but they have to make it known to me first. During my teennage years I tried so hard to find what would fit me and my own identity that I came to the conclusion that no label exists for me. As someone who is not sexually attracted to anything/anyone and capable of loving anyone regardless of appearance, I thought the absence of a label was extremely appropriate, so I just accepted that. I have no label, because I have no sexuality.

[@ravenwolfkittyface1802]

Wow. I’ve never been able to put into words my simultaneous discomfort with certain aspects of MOGAI communities, and disgust with people who spend so much time “dunking” on them. You put it into words so beautifully. Thank you for this.

[@lily_lxndr]

Thank you!

[@shockedbaby2590]

I can agree with you on that

[@thesealky6445]

Exactly how I felt

[@hexeddecimals]

This was a very pleasant levelheaded look at the MOGAI phenomenon that doesn't paint it as either a menace to society or the vanguard of progress. You showed what is really was: a small movement with good intentions that didn't do much

[@NIHIL_EGO]

I feel like people tend to overblown what happens on the Internet.

[@dog-ez2nu]

@@NIHIL_EGO I think it's either people underestimating or overestimating the Internet. How BINARY, hahahaha

[@icandoboth]

The issue with MOGAI isn’t that the genders were “too specific”. The issue was that they were trying to be prescriptive about what other people should call themselves. We need to give people the space to figure out who they are.

[@pee-flavoredvapegotojail1149]

god ur so right

[@JackhammerJesus]

I feel the problem with MOGAI and the people criticizing it is that they both think gender is something objective that can be clearly defined and that people need to follow their roles. A man who likes cats cannot possibly be a real man, so he needs his own label. And trans women with beards are not allowed to use female pronouns (because we all know cis women NEVER have facial hair) so they should just shave. For me the umbrella term "queer" describes all people who are uncomfortable with their gender roles and do not follow the rules set to them by others.

[@will.2155]

I think I’d disagree. I thought the purpose of the hundreds of different genders were to help people better describe their experiences(?)

[@generalsynch6519]

yeah I feel like its kind of an oxymoron in a sense, its a community thats for everybody but tries to slap genders onto people, what if people don’t want to have a label

[@generalsynch6519]

@@will.2155 but what if others don’t want to apply a label to themselves, MOGAI would make it so that they HAVE to have SOME kind of label, and even if they didn’t have to there would still be a label for them

[@SarahZ]

Can't wait for your channel to blow up

[@lily_lxndr]

Holy shit, thanks!

[@r.z.v.1455]

it's happening !!!

[@Trinthegay]

Holy shittens the mitterns it's Sarah Z

[@kaiwryn]

Well, this just popped into my recommend so... I think maybe it's happening...

[@Aithan83]

Think it is, this showed up in my recommended. I loved the analysis on a part of the internet that, so far, I had only experienced through mocking and memes. I still think it's pretty silly, but this gave me a whole new perspective on the whys and hows, which I found incredibly interesting. Subscribed, thank you!

[@raiy3171]

“When i want to be called she i shave my face” that is such a rawly depressing line, like i felt pity for that girl when she said that.

[@RyanTosh]

That gives a really interesting view into why she's making that video. Maybe sort of like she feels as if the people she's making fun of have skipped over (or just haven't yet reached) some of the sacrifices and difficulties she's encountered, and maybe that feels like a threat or a failure that reflects on the rest of the community.

[@redken3919]

That’s reality.

[@arrowpuppet]

@@redken3919 Doesn't have to be that way forever. The world is changing, and transgender people are getting to be more and more accepted every day. It shouldn't matter whether someone has a beard or not, if they want to be referred as "she", it just simply makes more sense to do so rather than sticking to outdated, "traditional" conceptualizations of gender.

[@vlacheda]

@@arrowpuppet you know that reality is rough. If someone wants to be referred as a bird, for example, I won't do it, because people just want attention and validation, it's just a psychological problem. People with common sense won't use it neither. If a guy wants to be referred as she, it's only his problem. He can't feel like woman, because he is not a woman, the same thing with women that feel like male

[@arrowpuppet]

@@vlacheda Like I said, it doesn't *have* to be rough. You're just contributing to the problem by just refusing to accept people's own identities. Sure it might be weird at first if someone wants to be identified as bird, but it literally hurts no one in the end. You only make the world a better place by respecting people's own identities, even if you don't understand them.

[@ivecaughtfire7431]

im a straight cis dude and can say this type of content is what the rest of the world needs. Not to empathize with or "vibe" with the trans community, but to educate itself in a healthy non-confrontational way that informs actual acceptance of other human beings. Not because trans-existence or movements ARE confrontational for normies but because they FEEL personally threatened by something thats been otherized or stigmatized in their minds. So good content on/by the trans community like this here is what becomes the most powerful tool for education and acceptance for those with no prior engagement with, exposure to, or understanding of progressive issues. And I can attest to this because of my being cis-het places me around other cis-het people more often than not and its just a matter of good communication that makes all the difference. Amazing video

[@coolguy9869]

This is the most concise, thoughtful, empathetic, genuine discussion of transmedicalism I have ever seen. As someone who was shoved back in the closet by "trans cringe" culture, I am in love w u and this entire video

[@breadsenpai8703]

If you haven’t already, I’d recommend checking out Brennen Beckwith’s videos on transmedicalism. they mean a lot to me as someone who was also shoved back into the closet by trans cringe culture

[@ryanmarie4461]

*oddly phrase afab anon ask* Me: "haha, mood" Lily: "This is clearly gender dysphoria" Me: "shhh, Im pretending like I dont know what that is."

[@SZebS]

i pretend i do not -see- hear it

[@averagefunnyguy491]

Ashamed to say I laughed at "A MOGAI" because it sounds like the plural of amogus.

[@MB-hc9we]

i burst out laughing when i fully processed this comment

[@alchemlemnis]

amogii

[@Nugcon]

This is canon now

[@rivulet5417]

🤡 Lol

[@ofeekins9614]

Amogus has got you

[@kajamiletic3223]

Maybe it's just a fundamental difference in goals? MOGAI seems to be more about "how do I explain to MYSELF what I am", "how do I identify what I'm feeling and differentiate it from other types of feelings" rather than "How do I explain to others who I am or who they are", but since it's mostly done by people who haven't figured it out yet it ends up vague and confusing.

[@m.holmes]

I agree! And I think the platform is largely the reason it BECAME about defining oneself to others; tumblr thrives on "showcasing" and putting yourself out there, it's all about being perceived and reacted to constantly, for better or worse. So it makes sense that a bunch of young people already involved in an online space like that trying to pin down who they are would wind up openly sharing that process with others before they've even finished it for themselves, and doing so with confidence (specific labels and definitions, flags, etc) because to seem uncertain at all would be to risk backlash and criticism and invalidation.

[@purgxzur1]

Sometimes it can be the latter but you're right in that at least in the early days it was mostly teens figuring themselves out. Now as someone part of that community I see it in people as secondary additions to an already established gender that greater fits most of the general ideas of gender

[@purgxzur1]

@@m.holmes to be honest they get way more backlash for this than if they were just questioning and I'm sure they knew that

[@СвеБожилова]

Oh woow, I am actually that anon from 2017 who said "my gender is female but I want an amab body". I'll be honest and say back when I wrote that, as an 18 year old I was being slightly dishonest. I am someone who has identified as non-binary since I was 14. But I also have always felt a little bit like a girl, even now as a 23 year old I still identify with the word "demigirl", partially a girl. The reason why I said what I did in that ask is because I was very confused about which labels I wanted to use and I just wanted someone to tell me I can still transition, regardless of what gender label I used, that's all I wanted. Also this was the first time I ever actually read the person's response lol because I didn't really use Tumblr and I kept checking to see if they had answered my ask but they hadn't for a very long time, so I never got to see the list of labels they gave me lol. Nowadays, I am still very much enby and still very much want to transition, I am saving money for top surgery rn.

[@lily_lxndr]

Omg, never would've guessed you'd see this! I def get wanting to hear "it's okay to transition" - I definitely needed that too back in the day. Hope all's well with you :)

[@СвеБожилова]

@@lily_lxndr I never would have thought my gender bs that is scattered all over the internet would have ended up in someone's video 😂. Regardless, it was great, thank you for making it! I hope your channel gets more success in the future, I already subscribed ☺️

[@nadia4067]

i feel the exact same way, i present fem but also have body dysphoria due to my lack of dick and no tits, i go by non binary atm, I'm just kinda scared of being abandoned by my friends if i went through surgery

[@1358Paco]

I've often had these exact feelings, but as an amab person. I've identified as non-binary for years now, but keep revisiting "demi-boy" as it sometimes feels accurate and is more specific than NB.

[@arietis2501]

@@nadia4067 Are... are you me?

[@BebopAlly]

"If you're not familiar with anti-trans cringe, keep it that way. You will watch it and leave a less companionate person." is the greatest line ive heard in a video essay

[@quinndawsonosgood5261]

Truth

[@masicbemester]

Edit: I think I forgave myself enough. this or you could've watched it, have the memes propagate the anti-trans message into your brain, only to become the very thing you blindly swore to destroy years later, with a particular difficulty in forgiving yourself. I did that and I don't know how to move on for some reason. Is it because I'm neurodivergent (specifically autistic, which I am diagnosed as)?

[@plantmomindistress3420]

@@masicbemester i know thins might sounds overly simplistic, but you can try to forgive yourself. It's a painful feeling, but atleast we aren't alone!

[@masicbemester]

@@plantmomindistress3420 I know and I'm sort of close to over it I guess but yeah

[@KaitlinGaspar]

@@masicbemester you are worth forgiveness friend ❤️ keep growing and it will get easier i promise

[@BigDrahma]

It was so weird seeing genderqueer in the list of MOGAI because it has always felt like a pretty widely accepted term, and one I’ve favored basically the entire time I’ve been out. And I definitely agree that letting labels prevent further exploration is wrong, I can’t help but thing that it’s not a bad thing if a million dead genders results in two or three that stick and gain traction.

[@NechoJak]

i actually actively identify as genderqueer so it was..... mmm.

[@jadedfire4351]

yeah as well as a few like genderfluid and non-binary hahah

[@lumalalu]

genderqueer also isnt a MOGAI term. its a way older term -- its from the 70s at the least.

[@Leeqzombie]

Yeah, as someone who was present for MOGAI... a lot of them actively avoided using the word because of 'queer is a slur' discourse. Genderqueer not only predates MOGAI, it predates 'non-binary' as a label, and was the default word for anyone beyond the binary until like, 2013. 'Genderqueer: Voices Beyond the Sexual Binary' was an anthology published in 2002, and there's documented use of the word dating back to the early 90s at least. I've identified as genderqueer since the late 00s, and still have copies of zines from around that period.

[@AmyAberrant]

I obviously can’t read cus I thought this was about “millions of dead GAMERS” and I was like damn what happened??

[@frenchiestbread4755]

The gamer war took many lives...

[@funnycomedymaster]

god this gives me flashbacks to the online gamer vs furry war

[@brandonj7586]

@@funnycomedymaster oh my god i forgot about *that*

[@Zuzu00000]

@@funnycomedymaster Furries and gamers had a war?? When was this???

[@funnycomedymaster]

@@Zuzu00000 it was in like 2019 iirc. it was all over tiktok.

[@brianarbenz7206]

I recall the first public discussions of what was just called homosexuality in the late '60s. About that time (I was 12) I realized I was bisexual. The Human Rights Campaign was the primary organization. Its name did not include labels for people. It was about equal rights and equal protection, without discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. The focus of the cause needs to be on the rights of people, not on a mass production of new categories and identities. The rights and dignity of the individual are what count.

[@tortis6342]

That is such a wonderful sentiment, and so beautifully worded too. I really enjoyed reading this and I thank you for putting this out there.

[@kainovember]

THIS. This is what I needed someone to say.

[@x4nkys]

as someone who uses mogai terms due to my complicated relationship with gender, since i'm autistic, this video really spoke to me in ways you may never know. the mogai community has been stomped on and dragged because of the fact we're so misunderstood, the mogai community has to be EXPERIENCED in order to be understood. most xenogenders were created with neurodivergent people in mind because our relationship with gender is extremely different than neurotypicals. thank you so much for being respectful and educating others on this very touchy subject within the lgbtq+ community, nd yes, a lot of the mogai community consists of young neurodivergent trans folks who are just trying to find themselves. this may not be a forever label or forever community, but if it helps us in this moment, then it's valid. because who are we to say the way someone experiences gender/attraction is valid or invalid based on our personal experiences since everybody is different nd won't share the same ideas. so thank you again for posting this very informative video nd i hope that one day everyone or most people can share your opinion on this topic so that the lgbtq+ community, spec. the trans community can stop being so divided with the "truscum/transmed" and "tucute" debate/arguement nd just come together as people.

[@autumn4941]

As a neurodivergent person I'm just curious what you meant when you said that we have a complicated relationship with gender.

[@x4nkys]

@@autumn4941 most neurodivergent ppl that i know, including myself, have issues w/ social constructs such as gender. understanding gender & identities is a very hard thing in the nd community, however your experience may not be the same as mine & may not be the same as many other neurodivergent ppl who are welcomed into the mogai space :)

[@meyomin]

I was scared to watch this video because I didn't know what its take on MOGAI would be. I've been looking through the comments to see if it's safe to watch, and I found yours. I'm also autistic, and while my gender isn't considered a xenogender (I'm boyflux), the hate that those identities received really affected me. I came out as a trans guy in 2014 and then later discovered the term demiguy in 2016 and genderflux in 2017. I really related to them both, but I felt so ashamed because I didn't think they were seen as valid. It was a combination of internalised transphobia and societal pressure. So it wasn't until last year that I was finally able to accept that I'm a genderflux guy. And honestly, I think I would've been able to accept myself sooner if it weren't for the people who criticised MOGAI.

[@thepinkestpigglet7529]

Yeah I really liked the term neurogender because of my inability to figure out the difference between gender dysphoria and sensory processing disorder but people got really mad at that because they think I'm trying to say trans is a mental illness or something. I don't understand why I cant talk about my personal experience without people assuming I'm talking about an entire group of people.

[@idasvenning3892]

I hadn't heard it before but mogai really, really gives off ND vibes. I fell like people hate it for the same reason that they hate furries and anything else that mostly ND people like, ie it's different, they don't understand it and therefore it's apparently shameful?

[@parkerpenafiel9014]

As someone who has a really complicated gender - I don’t explain it to people offline cause it’s not important. They just need to know how to refer to me. My labels are for me, and I use the micro labels just as a way to help sort my own feelings.

[@teocatnation4818]

i’m the same way! i have hyper specific labels for myself but it’s not something i explain to others especially offline because it’s a hassle and not important, all they really need to know is how to refer to me.

[@sincerecinnamon]

My labels are fairly easy to explain, but I agree that my labels are for me. I find comfort in having labels and communities that I can connect myself to, and it's specifically for me to know

[@purgxzur1]

Same here!

[@pissbaby6849]

Same here :))

[@ha_des]

oh its *exactly* that.

[@limonx6778]

If I had a queercore punk band I would def call it "dead genders"

[@imsodonewiththissh1t]

i would be a fan 10/10

[@ohokay4663]

I would absolutely join your queercore band 😳

[@Not_An_EV]

I can sorta play the kalimba when and where do I audition.

[@limonx6778]

@@Not_An_EV i can barely sing, but this seems to be going somewhere

[@m0th-m0th-m0th-m0th]

i play guitar let me in

[@nuclearw0rmzz]

I think a major thing with MOGAI is that the labels were never intuitive; it was more about scrolling around on tumblr for hours at a time, soaking in as many labels as you could, until you found the label that made you go "yea this accurately describes my current relationship with my gender" without much thought to WHY you feel this way about your gender. And like when ur a 13 year old autistic kid who doesn't really go,,yknow,,outside and therefore has no frame of reference for queer identities aside from ur one friend who came out as bi last week; MOGAI slaps! It gives you words to latch onto when you're in the rocky, chaotic phases of discovering your identity so that you won't have to confront all the changes happening (and also just so that there Is a word; I've always found them so much easier to understand than feelings), AND it gives you something to focus all your energy and interest into for weeks or months at a time (very helpful when you don't have a special interest). However, when ur a 17 year old autistic person unpacking all their trauma and coming to terms with all the overlapping shit that goes into gender...MOGAI's pretty weird and rigid. I find myself falling back on some of those labels bc yknow,,,structure good, but it's so much nicer to go "i'm transmasc; there's quite a bit of gender in me but it's often masculine aligned" instead of going "i'm a polygender/genderfluid demiboy + demigirl who keeps a chart specifically to mark when my gender changes" (not an exaggeration; that is in fact what I was up to in 2017.)

[@harrisondorn7091]

Damn, this comment made me feel like finding a new MOGAI gender that fits lol, you just described me. Now I know I'm 100% a binary trans guy but gender is so confusing to me that it took way too long too realize....a large part of that is autism. The drive to label and compartmentalize everything right away can be really detrimental. There needs to be more research on the inner lives of autistic people and how we think in different ways, because I KNOW this shit isn't isolated to gender. Other aspects of identity, surely: self-image, values, hopes and fears. What invisible differences impact people's lives? Wish I knew how but only got one brain to compare with, gosh darn it!

[@bayza7955]

I find identifying with the different labels helps me track my self-discovery journey as well as help me not lose that progress because I have a terrible memory. I get depressed when things aren't organized and that includes myself and my emotions. If I don't know exactly what I'm feeling and exactly why, I can spend hours to days trying to figure it out. If I can stick a label on something, that's that and I'm happy. While I think obsessing over gender and sexuality is something that can wreck people, I don't think marking when, where, and why gender shifts occur is a bad thing. It's the same reason I track my periods or keep a diary on my PTSD-related panic attacks and nightmares (helpful for both me and the professionals). It keeps me in control and I can understand how to prevent the worst-case scenario such as lashing out during a girl's day at the mall. You can spot patterns and plan around them or use them to your advantage. Then again, could just be my obsessive neat freak talking. I completely agree with you and love the thoughts that went into this. Good luck on your journey!

[@sketchreemead6353]

I'm starting to tentatively identify as transmasc and MAN are you me? I've still got my gender journal from 2014...

[@tarathoughts13]

@@sketchreemead6353 may I please ask what a gender journal is? And why I kinda want one even though I’m cis?

[@sketchreemead6353]

@tarathoughts13 oh sure! uh when I was young and questioning my identity at like 16, i kept a private tumblr where I'd make note of how my gender felt that day, and shifts in my identity, like "ooooh I really feel like a guy right now" or "I'm OK with all pronouns!" Looking back and Knowing Things about myself now, sometimes my heart hurts because I'll read things like "my mom's family are here. I feel like I don't have a gender right now." And now after years of therapy I'm like "sweetheart they are right wing conservative evangelicals and you are dissociating, it wasn't exactly about your gender." But even all that aside it was a way to track shifts when my being felt really fluid. As for why you want one even though you're cis? Can't answer that for you! But I will say it's fun and cool to get silly with your gender, cis or otherwise, and everyone should be able to decide what they like and don't like wrt to gender. So if it's something you'd like to journal on and process, then by all means, no one can stop you. >:)

[@PhilosophyTube]

This was very interesting and well-made, thank you!

[@lily_lxndr]

Thank you! :)

[@lucano2582]

Hi there Abigail! Do you think youll ever make an episode on something similar to MOGAI etc?

[@Eve.v]

@@lucano2582 she recently tweeted her bibliography for her upcoming video, and this video is in it !!! sorry if this is weird, but since you expressed interest, i wanted you to know she'll probably be doing a vid about (mogai?) gender(s) (and capitalism??) !! ^.^

[@lucano2582]

@@Eve.v amazing! Not weird at all, thank you

[@charliekahn4205]

@@frog973 what's changed?

[@hevalemin6520]

This really gets at the heart of what is wrong with this sytem of microlabels in a way that doesn't veer into transmedicalism, transphobia, societal hatred of teenage girls, etc. It shows a lot of empathy and understanding for what need this was developed to meet. It genuinely helped me see the world in a more compassionate way and be more supportive of parts of our community that I previously didn't understand and felt embarassed by.

[@Yyygyhyj]

It’s just a lil uncomfy when MOGAI discourse cover up trans issues such as hate crimes, health care accessibility, homelessness and more

[@Yyygyhyj]

But I still think these identities are valid

[@apollo6662]

Yeah i think thats what was the real issue with the MOGAI movement

[@blueoutrun]

Sadly, it's easier to anonymously type at home to argue over minutia and philosophy, rather than showing up to a local organization or protest. One is lower risk and feels productive (even when it's not), and the other can be high risk, requires sharp awareness of the material consequences of oppression, and is often unsatisfying.

[@lessevilnyarlathotep1595]

@@wolfetteplays8894 congrats on the gender

[@elliot.woohoo]

@@wolfetteplays8894 Cool! What are your pronouns? And is that your only gender or do you have multiple?

[@SomeoneBeginingWithI]

22:00 "no discourse on this post please I am a minor and I panic easily" unironically made me go "awww". How can you not feel compassion for someone who is clearly a scared child in need of support.

[@vicious-w7m]

Maybe if you don't want criticism don't publish your opinion in the public square.

[@pahotline]

@@vicious-w7m Completely true but human decency towards a child, I would think is still expected.

[@kolebaby12]

@@vicious-w7m 'public square' dude its not an agora for intellectuals to convene its a kids blog on tumblr.

[@cfor8129]

@Melody Ackerman I mean there's probably better ways to deal w a child doing something wrong than online harrassment so yeah?

[@user-bo6vy5eg8g]

@Melody Ackerman is it the same person? Yeah, minors do shitty things sometimes. But *this* minor is just a kid wanting help. Just because one person does a thing doesn't mean an entire group does

[@byronlee991017]

I still can't believe a bunch of grown ass adults really just harassed a bunch of kids trying to find themselves... I just stayed to myself because I was relatively shy on tumblr but I now feel so bad

[@kaitai-san2783]

Honestly the old mogai community was very avid on labeling EVERY experience but lately the mogai community has been coming back. I see a lot of xenogenders being used on mainstream social media with catgender and dollgender etc. It’s interesting to see how the community has shifted from labeling every experience to labeling connections with things. I’ve been a part of the community for a long time, the history is interestingx

[@sketchreemead6353]

I was just noticing this again!

[@r3alityisnotreal]

Ye but gender isn't experience it's how what body u are most comfortable in

[@redswanmusic3627]

I feel the main problem with these terms is that they attempt to express all feelings around gender to a gender identity, and all feelings around sexuality to a single identify, which aligns with the young demographic: it's people figuring themselves out. I remember looking through hundreds of these genders to try and pick mine out, when the real answer was just "idk yet". What kids needed to hear when discussing their experiences was "it's okay not to be sure", not "you are this, and that's valid" (whilst an obscure gender identity is certainly valid, it seems to me that too much focus was put on this, and not enough validity on the act of questioning and discovering oneself). Ultimately tho, it was kids trying to help each other, and it's a sad reflection on society that the only people queer kids could discuss their true feelings with was these people.

[@LivyRivy]

A lot of these labels don't even have anything to do with gender.

[@okay3666]

While ‘it’s okay to not know” is what kids should be told it’s not what they want to hear. It’s frustrating to hear that because it doesn’t feel helpful because it doesn’t bring you any closer to knowing.

[@cfor8129]

I don't think a nuanced expanded vocab to express feelings about gender is a problem, the same way niche terminology on knitting forums isn't a problem - any topic considered in depth will create new words

[@romem1952]

I disagree a bit. I took part towards it's fall. It gave me the sense of security that even if I did fit a gender nobody really knew, that it would be okay, and that I would be okay. I never felt not okay with questioning. In my circles at least, I was assured often that it was okay.

[@lusiferm1187]

As a teenager who is 100% sure of being trans, I don't experience connection to xenogenders because I'm confused or unsure of my identity, I feel that connection because I have a very unique relationship with my gender. Terms like that help me describe my connection, and once I finally found them, it was like my experience finally made sense. You may not need them, hell most people may not need them, but to some people, us who use them aren't just confused, we've just finally found something that fits :) This isn't meant to come off as aggressive at all, I just wanted to let you know that indeed people do use these labels, and yes it is 100% serious and definitely needed by some. :)

[@helixtheraptor9374]

I know I’m young (14) and I’ve decided that I’m nobinary and using they/them pronouns as of right now. I’ve had people tell me I’m too young or whatever and I feel like the only response is “you can think that but this is what I’ve chosen for myself right now, it may change in the future but this is who I am now.”

[@lisaparamonova3664]

I had that exact mentality when I was your age, and I definitely think it was the healthiest approach I could have had. Thinking of labels as what you find best at the present, rather than something innate in you, allows you to question your own experience, and possibly grow into something different over time. Seeking to find what made me happy rather than what 'describes me' was a lot more useful in actually figuring myself out. I hope it goes well for you!

[@lop311]

You decided to be non-binary ? Wtf ?

[@ambertasniem7245]

Hey! I think this is a really healthy approach, well done - definitely do whatever feels right for you in the moment. Best of luck for the future!

[@naolucillerandom5280]

@@lop311 No, no, decided *that they are* non binary. Like, finding the word.

[@Nakia11798]

I mean, you ARE too young to be sure, but they/them pronouns aren't doing anything to hurt you, so like, why do they care? Just take care of your mental health and don't go making any rash decisions on medical care. Good luck with your discovery journey.

[@suitov]

I was expecting this to be one of those anti-MOGAI cringe vids - which is no shade against you, I just didn't know your channel before this popped up in my recommends - and I was pleasantly surprised. This was an informed and balanced take. You nailed a few of the things that disturb me about Tumblr communities (not counting the bullying. My god the bullying) and how sometimes the best person to advise a 13yo isn't necessarily another 13yo who happens to have a blog, and lived experience is very important when someone is looking for guidance. Teens have this huge need to be labelled. That's why personality quizzes never seem to die as a trend. They don't like to hear the answer "you're not there yet; you've got more work to do; this is a journey that may last your whole life". And I can understand why, but the alternative is letting a stranger with a tarot deck or a crystal or some cool slime gifs tell you who you are.

[@ravenwolfkittyface1802]

Your second paragraph! As true as that is, I also think a lot of people never grew out of it. Like, look at how huge the alternative wellness industry is.

[@noahhager1187]

so I'm a cis boy who kinda never grew up in that community, and my answer to mogai and mogai cringe is just not to care. like unless you're like triggering my anxiety by being loud and kinda crazy in public, I shouldn't care. I think most people care too much about what others around them are doing. just live and let live.

[@god_2.0_the_better_version]

People should just let everybody vibe and do their own thing as long as it's not hurting anyone, people really need to just chill and stop deciding how everybody else should live

[@JD-ld1vk]

I was active on tumblr for most of the MOGAI community's existence, and even as a young teenager I had an understanding that the majority of these genders I was reading about would never be used. But I didn't care, because it excited me. MOGAI felt to me like the growing pains of a language trying to reconcile itself with its incompleteness. English can feel so restrictive and binary and, at the time, any language I tried to use to describe myself felt clunky and imprecise. I realized that for all the words in this language, none of them would define could ever perfectly define me. That scared me as a teenager, because if I couldn't put a label on who/what I was, who could anyone ever understand me? I'm much more comfortable with that uncertainty as an adult, and for all the confusion it did cause me, I'm ultimately glad for those 500+ glossaries that let me play around and explore myself, always with the reassurance that no matter what I chose for myself it would be valid. I guess it was like my gender training wheels, letting me explore with safety. Anyways, I think this video was really neat, thanks for talking about this subject.

[@mx.hyacinth]

I was really hesitant about this video, so many videos about MOGAI are just toxic and accusatory. I often ran parallel to this community without vocally participating, and there are some labels I came across through it that I still use (ex. antigirl, nebularomantic). I really like putting language to how I feel and conceptualize my gender, though I also don't try to remain in a lable that is too fixed and doesn't allow for personal growth. There's definitely valid criticism to be made of the movement, and it did harm to certain people, but microlables can be helpful to some and shouldn't be immediately shot down. Some of them do stick and catch on, pansexuality and demigenders being the clearest example imo. Frankly, I remember when being non-binary was considered too different and making a bad name for the trans community, so I'm weary of making broad statements of condemnation.

[@-beee-]

Heck yeah, I think exploring neologisms and using those new words to explore is awesome! Not everything people try has to "stick" for it to have been valuable, and even then we don't know which ones will. Thanks for sharing this perspective!

[@miamafalda1118]

No way! I'm nebularomantic too! Didn't think I'd find anyone else who identified that way, lol.

[@death_crater]

So the wild thing about the whole "they're making REAL trans people look bad" line from the anti-MOGAI grifters is that, like, 99% of the posts they feature would probably have lived and died with only a couple thousand impressions, tops. All they've accomplished is taking this content that supposedly delegitimizes their own identity just by existing and giving it a much, much larger audience. Almost gives one the impression that they're just reassuring their fans and viewers that dunking on a bunch of extremely online middle schoolers is somehow morally righteous and not fucking embarassing. Great video, I'm so glad ✨the algorithm✨ seems to be picking it up

[@CorinneA3]

Yeah now that you mention it, I once came across a video by a pretty small creator that did just that, though it called these people "transtrenders" instead of MOGAI. At the time, I was definitely an LQBTQ+ ally, but I didn't really know much about the complexities of gender identity and stuff like that. It was only until I watched Contrapoints' video about transtrenders that I gained a new perspective. I'm glad I didn't go down that rabbit hole too far.

[@horrorsans6427]

Some don't realize that you can still be trans and a xenogender, like giving yourself male parts with female parts or cross-dressing with whatever xenogender you are (I'm a trans catgender, so I try to look like a semi-cat, kind of like a fursuit-less asexual furry.)

[@horrorsans6427]

@@kaiyodei "Teehee break the binary" Binary does not bother me, so I don't say that bullshit.

[@averywebb3093]

unrelated but i love your pfp!

[@punkmouze134]

Honestly the whole argument of "mogai makes trans look like a joke!" never really had a good enough basis to go off of imo. Yeah, they can be perceived as silly constantly if you don't know why people use them, but we trans people don't exist for cis validation. We don't exist to make sure cis people approve of us, especially if we "pass" or not. We exist to be comfortable in our own skin regardless of what other people think.

[@venamotylek]

I'm someone pretty new to the LGBT community, I'm 15 and just started publically expressing that I was queer and oh my god experiencing being queer offline vs online is very VERY different. Edit: lmao this started blowing up again, I'll be 17 in march. Can confirm I still kiss women.

[@lily_lxndr]

Super different!

[@garlottos]

get out while you can

[@georckbread3403]

@@garlottos cringe

[@arrowfinnegan]

It really is different. Best thing to do is fine some folks who are ready to support you and be there for you in real life and then find yourself a niche or corner online

[@2tri749]

​@@garlottos out of what

[@chickengenders7899]

its also important to reiterate that MOGAI was mainly made for and by neurodivergent people. this is due to the fact that those who are ND often have a very complicated relationship with their gender and sexuality, and might just flat out not understand gender/sexuality as a whole (im personally more of the latter). its important to note that MOGAI is one of those things that you really need to experience yourself to fully understand it. they may seem useless to you, but to someone else, it might change their whole view of their gender. TL;DR MOGAI was made mostly for neurodivergent people who don't have a solid or clear grasp on their gender, and a lot of these identities need to be personally experienced to be understood completely.

[@dr.bandito60]

Thanks for explaining this 👍

[@btljxs84930]

so much like neopronouns now?

[@bugsy7050]

yes! from what i’ve seen, neopronouns being used by autistics, people with adhd, or other nuerodivergents who hyperfixate or deal with their sense of identity being changed by something usually use pronouns related to that thing that is changing or “covering” their identity. for example, i don’t really feel connected to any pronouns, but i thought about using pronouns related to my special interest and that made me SO happy because i feel like that interest is so ingrained in to my being. it’s the same concept just with pronouns

[@gr1mreap3rz15]

yes!! this!! i'm autistic - i use xenogenders and neopronouns because other labels don't feel like they entirely fit me. it's like trying to wear an outfit that was tailor-made for someone else.

[@yukiandkanamekuran]

I agree with this entirely. For me, it's something I can find a word to describe how I really feel. And it gives me euphoria. Im neurodivergent and my gender is intrinsically changed by my system.

[@kermishy]

as a cis het person this was really helpful in my understanding of this side of the internet that i had sort of seen from a distance in the past but never looked closer at. thank you :)

[@unknownname3703]

same here, simple dude trying to wrap my head around all of this gender stuff without being an asshole.

[@canavero4288]

as a gay im laughing at this lol this kind of stuff is why people think the lgbt community is a joke

[@nirvana-owo]

When I was 13-15 I had a decently popular truscum/transmed tumblr. I took a break from tumblr for a year due to mental health treatment and when I came back I realized I had spread so many lies and toxcicty. At this point I've been trying to work on my gender issues myself without bringing other people down. I hope that my blog never harmed anyone and if it did that it wasn't as bad.

[@justicefordannyphantom7126]

@@thefirehawk1921 i- would you mind explaining how communism spreads lies and/or toxicity?

[@lgbtqiarights]

@@justicefordannyphantom7126 their logic is “communism bad capitalism good”, and it’s irrelevant anyway so i’d ignore them

[@justicefordannyphantom7126]

@@lgbtqiarights thats fair & i love your name btw

[@lgbtqiarights]

@@justicefordannyphantom7126 ty!

[@ImportNaming]

Thanks Jolyne.

[@CacophonyScamp]

I was in the Mogai crowd. It's hard to call it a community it was mostly just a bunch of baby trans people not sure how to deal with that. The most helpful thing I found was when older Trans people interacted with it and helped answer questions and offer support. There will always be young trans people who need support and help finding answers.

[@elliart7432]

I’m not gonna lie, it is honestly frustrating seeing there’s a million unused, unneeded words that basically all mean the same thing, meanwhile there’s still millions of nonbinary people waiting for unisex words for common practical terms be common place. Like I still don’t know wtf I am to my aunts

[@mhenderson7673]

Ooooo the gender-neutral term for niece/nephew is nibling! I heard it from a friend irl and it's been around since the 1950s apparently.

[@elliart7432]

@@mhenderson7673 we should work on being organized behind words like that we really need, and be DECISIVE as a community about it too. My aunts would laugh in my face if I asked them to call me that

[@mhenderson7673]

@@elliart7432 Yes I agree, I've never heard nibling actually being used before. I hope that if I use it for myself, then maybe it could be more normalised? At least to the people in my life

[@Rubyoreo]

true.

[@whatisthis1958]

@@mhenderson7673 nibling is just an amazing sounding word to be honest

[@orangethedemoncat5772]

Blaire White was really there like "There's a lot of cringe on this app specifically LGBT trans cringe." acting as if she hasn't heard about or seen straight Tik Tok. Let's be honest. Straight Tik Tok is a whole nother level. It's a mix of cringy and just ew.

[@Jinkroll]

Tik tok is just a cringe fest. Straight tik tok makes me wish I didn’t like men and lgbt tik tok makes me want to be straight. There’s no end. It’s just a void that we can never escape

[@dislikeroftheinternet5499]

She did?? Lmfao. 💀💀💀 this comment failed through the cracks

[@biophype]

thats your opinion though.

[@fingersinyourass9527]

Both of them are equally horrible

[@yunaarika]

Isn't she on straight tiktok?

[@Sky-TheYouTubeAccount]

I think it's very important to let younger and/or questioning members of the lgbt+ community know that it is okay to not have a label.

[@toby_beloved1825]

25:45 bruh when they have so much internalized transphobia and fear towards invalidation they tell another trans person that their transition/appearance is invalid

[@cbeech8622]

I feel like there is a big connection between these MOGAI communities and the JREG/Political Compass memes community. They both seem hyper-online and seem to almost be taxonomists for genders and ideologies

[@lily_lxndr]

Taxonomists is a great word for this - wish I'd thought of that lol

[@frejo1931]

oh yeah definitely. Have you seen the meme jreg used as the thumbnail for his video "Why are young people more ideological"? That constant switching of identity is what made me realize this is basically just mogai for the "edgier" hyper online teens

[@der_metzgermeister]

Its kinda funny cause the edgier kids into obscure ideologies usually think of the mogai kids as cringe, not seeing that they're very similar. They say "stargender? f+ck off i dont believe in that sh1t" then turn and say they identify as plutocratic xenofascist paleominarchists with chinese characteristics.

[@tortis6342]

@@der_metzgermeister It reminds them of themself and they don't like it. They distance themselves from the MOGAIs so they don't have to face what they are.

[@darkacadpresenceinblood]

lmaooo i didn't think of that comparison but as someone that's been on both sides of the internet, definitely accurate

[@neo-pronouns]

multiple terms i coined were listed and one of my flags was in the thumbnail,, i feel weirdly honored fjkldgs

[@lily_lxndr]

your influence

[@neo-pronouns]

@Sappho oh, i'm still very active in the mogai community! i run two blogs. the community has been nothing but positive for me as a dysphoric trans person, and i'm proud to be able to help people be more comfortable in their labels.

[@neo-pronouns]

@Sappho the community itself is actually larger and more active than ever!

[@MackenziiRivers]

out of curiosity what terms did you coin/flags?

[@neo-pronouns]

@@MackenziiRivers the flag of mine is on the far right, first from the top, and it's the original flag for bronzehemaec (i made a different flag recently, as i made that flag around three years ago and wanted to update it to reflect my improved flagmaking skills. as for terms, i noticed: almopronominal, almneopronominal, exterpronominal, panneopronominal, panpronominal, femigen, feminec, neutraned, formarenec, formarenecflux, neutragen, formaregen, formaregenflux, femigec, mascugec, mascunec, formaregec, formaregecflux, themisgender, frythen, switchfluid, and azurgirl, though i may have missed a few! i've coined a LOT of terms over the years, and sometimes i forget some of them.

[@mattyowen158]

"no one has made that video yet, which is why I'm here today" we love an unmet need

[@finolausseece]

When I was 16-17 I had a very confusing gender experience. I had transitioned with the support of my family several years prior, identified as a trans man, was on T, was very happy with my gender experience, until I wasn't. Around 16-17, I started feeling less and less attached to the concept of maleness. Which was somewhat panic inducing, mostly because I knew, and had always known, that I wasn't a girl. I knew that I wasn't a girl long before I knew what being trans was. I liked the effects of T on my body and mind. I was more comfortable with myself physically than I ever had been. I was excited for my upcoming top surgery. And suddenly, gender no longer made sense, because, suddenly, I was still not a girl, but I was also no longer a boy, and I didn't know what to make of that. The MOGAI community helped me find a lot of ways to describe my experience. I often think that that was what it succeeded at. Less at, identities that people can identify actively with, and more, descriptions of the day to day lives of trans people. My gender has always been Not A Girl, so concepts such as "antigirl" were extremely useful to explain why, I had assumed, for years, being Not A Girl, must mean, It's A Boy. But these aren't actually the same thing, and the MOGAI community was one of the first places that I found that talked about that experience. In contrast, when I was about 19, I wore a skirt at an all trans conference, and was speaking with another trans person about gender and presentation, and she said to me, "In my opinion, if it wears a skirt, it's a girl." When one of the few things I have literally always known about my gender is that I'm not a girl. I'm 26 now, and several years prior I settled on the easiest term for general conversation use - being nonbinary - but I still actually use some MOGAI words in conversation with people when we're having a more deep dive, interpersonal, conversation about the very weird and subjective experience that is gender, gender expression, gender play, and gender dysphoria, because I think that it's extremely useful to have and use specific words and descriptions. I have to go, but I have a lot of thoughts about gender and language. It's what I studied in college.

[@pedroxqui]

I loved that you didn't stopped at a "this is ridiculous" and went on to a "...but why?"

[@supersungal2]

I did a little informal reddit ama about my non-binary identity and someone asked me how I felt about the concept of non-binary being so broad. I told them that I actually really enjoyed the fact that it was so broad because it meant that I didn't have to sift through every single aspect of my gender to come up with a specific and accurate label. I tell people I'm non binary, and if they want to know more, I tell them that the vibe I'm trying to capture is "Boyfriend wearing his girlfriend's prom dress as a joke but also kinda enjoying it" but also "lesbian, but only to the people I'm close to". I like the fact that these days people speak more about the vibe that they're going for in terms of an instance that makes them euphoric or a feeling that they revolve around to form their identity and expression. Gender is such an abstract idea.

[@birdysama2980]

I tried to explain that same exact thing to some friends.

[@gato_bry]

love those descriptions omg

[@JMan54030]

"Boyfriend wearing his girlfriend's prom dress as a joke but also kinda enjoying it" 😂 This was actually me though. I'm a cisgender male, but I wore a dress to prom and went with my friend who's a lesbian, who also wore a dress. It even specifically started out as a joke in my sophomore year of high school, that I was going to wear a dress to senior prom, and I ended up actually loving it. To help paint a picture: I'm white; 6' 2"; moderately physically fit; wearing a glittery sky blue colored dress with enough padding in the chest to make it look like I had B cups and size 13 blue and white Converse; wearing cherry red lipstick, black eyeliner, and mascara; and topped off with body glitter on my arms, chest, neck, and beard.

[@supersungal2]

@@JMan54030 God I want to BE you that is so excellent brava brava

[@minehermit]

​@@JMan54030 thats so cool of you! just more proof that clothes are just fabric. No matter what you wear if you feel good you will be handsome/beautiful.

[@GelidGanef]

TFW: you click on a video about trans issues, and let the waves of dread rush over you as you wait to learn if youtube sent you a terf video

[@leakypfaucet]

HAHDHAHAHWH THIS IS ME WAtCHING IT I’m nervous

[@calliespltn]

LOLOL i was scared to even click on the video...

[@systemerror591]

Same I haven't even watched it yet, because a lot of things with titles like this are either terfy or gatekeepy. I'm scared to watch, what does it matter if people use labels under MOGAI? I think it is a great jumping off point and explanation of gender for when you're trying to find yourself, because a lot of common boxes are too shallow and so limited. MOGAI gave many the terms they need, especially like with what one commenter said about it helping neurodivergent people like myself, to feel like they're human and to be able to find a community like theirs

[@cadr003]

A comment straight outta of my mind

[@leakypfaucet]

@@anziepanzie plssss😭😭😭 i was like waittt he sounds hot *feverishly googles* ....oh 😐😐😐

[@Enajirot]

To me, a lot of these labels seem to be people blurring their sexuality/gender with their personality and just who they are as a person. Especially when you’re young, you have no idea who you are beyond just gender and orientation wise. but, in my experience as a kid/teen online, those are really the only things talked about in regards to “who you are” so it makes sense that a lot of young kids would gravitate toward hyper specific labels to define themselves because they haven’t been told they have the right to exist simply as themselves, I know I had trouble with it. It’s horrifying to not know who you are and I think mogai was a way to combat that fear. But in reality, identity is a multifaceted, complex thing that constantly evolves and can’t be properly labeled or defined, and that’s okay. You have a right to exist as you, and that’s enough.

[@grenlinmew]

i mean the meaning of the gender is quite literally how someone feels, if someone feels silly and goofy and want that as their gender then there’s no harm in that, what’s wrong with discovering who u are? and the argument with “kids are gonna…” is infantilizing

[@osheridan]

@@grenlinmew fr

[@OO-ct4hq]

@@grenlinmew tf

[@grenlinmew]

@@OO-ct4hq hashtag ur transphobic

[@lunawolfheart336]

I agree I think people are confusing identity in general and gender. In reality gender is only one aspect of our identity. Our identity is made up of a lot of different things not just gender or sexuality

[@cheshiretrick]

"hot girl hitting a wall stock photo" is so funny, what a great video

[@thereisnofood2008]

the trans community needs more of this: nuanced discussion and compassion. this is a wonderfully honest and refreshing video on this topic, thank you

[@L4UNDRYBE4R]

tbh as i've gotten older [and im not that old I'm 15, but I've had internet access since I was 11 & have known about mogai since I was 11] I've went from "ew mogai its so toxic and bad and trivializing!!" to... not really caring. who gives a crap if someone says they're bunnygender. i know plenty of people who identify as some form of xenogender & uses neopronouns and I could not care less. they're all nice & it's not like they're out here purposely trying to push back binary or more socially acceptable trans identities. y'know, some people argue that it makes us look like a joke, but if someone is going to be transphobic to me because some person identified as bunnygender, they were still transphobic, they just found an excuse for it that isn't "I'm a jerk" because they damn well could say "ph well I believe in binary trans people but not xenogenders" like people [unfortunately] do with binary and non-binary trans identities, y'know? at the end of the day, mogai is pretty harmless, let people do what they want, it doesn't effect you.,

[@quicksilverchaos4122]

this. someone being a terrible person isn't justified by the person they're attacking being "silly". at the end of the day, if it makes someone feel good and isn't hurting anyone, why can't they be bunnygender?

[@viveleshistoires4874]

Yes! It took me some time but I finally understand the value of _respecting_ over understanding. Who cares if I don’t understand every gender, orientation, or why people would identify as this or that? I don’t need to understand them to respect them. It’s not that hard! You identify as a bunnygender lesbian oriented aroace and use xe/xem pronouns? Cool! Do I understand what all of those things mean? No. Do I understand how you feel? No. Do I understand why you identify as such? No. Do I need to understand these things in order to treat you with respect and use your correct pronouns? HECK NO! I might not understand everything, but respect is key! ^^

[@Yippieyiyo]

This is honestly what got me out of the alt-right pipeline. I realized life became a lot more pleasant when I stopped getting angry at things that had nothing to do with me.

[@EmeraldEmolga]

Is it weird that I had no internet access until I was 15 and I'm only 17 now-

[@Yippieyiyo]

@@EmeraldEmolga no, honestly you’re probably much more well-adjusted for it

[@BeefBronson]

When I was about 14 years old, I remember seriously questioning my gender identity and my role in society. I felt incredibly dissatisfied with being a man, and with what “being a man” even meant. I didn’t want to hold myself to those standards because they simply didn’t feel like the right standards for me. After doing some soul-searching regarding my gender, I came across the term “demiboy.” I thought that made perfect sense, because *obviously* I still felt like I was a boy, it’s just that I didn’t want to do boyness all the way, y’know? I ran with that label for a few weeks before ultimately dropping it. I wouldn’t question my gender again for another 5 years, when I finally realized that I was a trans woman. To this day, I feel intense regret for not realizing it sooner. I feel like if I didn’t have access to the tumblr information superhighway slamming MOGAI stuff in my face 24/7, then maybe I would have figured it out at 14 instead of burying it. Ah, well. Water under the bridge, I guess.

[@cameronscott9399]

As a side note, as someone who went down the mogai rabbit hole but then left. This is because what eventually happened to me is that I essentially started to develop a need to have a label for every facet of who I was which then led to me refusing to confront any of my issues that I'd labeled because they where now a part of my identity aswell as trying to change myself in different ways to fit some labels so they where more accurate. I'm not saying that this is something intentionally done by the mogai community or that it's what inevitably happens to everyone in the community but that I think it's a very real risk that at least needs addressed in some way

[@francis7385]

yep same

[@sethleth6577]

this is exactly the kind of thing that I worried about while seeing this go down on Tumblr - I was already in my twenties and comfortable using a lot of jokey, allegory type descriptions to describe my gender. The taxonomic structure of so many MOGAI terms and the implication that it was possible, if you could only pay close enough attention to every single thought you had, to somehow pin down and exactly describe the relationship between you and gender and how that interacted with other people and your desires, seemed perfectly built to create obsessive and ultimately isolating thoughts.

[@darkacadpresenceinblood]

this shit literally happened to me except with a certain personality typology so i feel you

[@rainiestday]

@dark acad presence in blood oh hey same here. i was (and am still) very interested in typology and was really obsessed with "collecting" typology labels. and i semi-subconsciously changed how i acted (mostly on typology forums) to align more with the traits typically associated with whatever type(s) i was identifying with at the time. it's a lot more fun now that i don't feel that pressure to figure out my type.

[@darkacadpresenceinblood]

@@rainiestday same!! plus i was also obsessed with typing others, especially fictional characters, to the point where i literally couldn't read a damn book without distracting myself with "OMG that is SUCH a [insert random type] way to act" "yeah i am sure [insert character] is [insert type] now" every scene...

[@rhyanisyes4512]

While I was in the early stages of questioning my gender, I was watching Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah. For a long time, I was like "something feels really...off about this" which is when I realized how toxic they were but I forced myself to watch it anyway because I thought I had to because I was a snowflake if it made me uncomfortable. The last straw was that video Blaire did about "cringey trans tiktoks", when I saw this *full-grown woman* ripping apart these teens who are just trying to be themselves and figure things out. The comments were even worse, saying all these horrible things about the kids in the video and especially non-binary people as a whole. It was only after I stopped watching that I realized how much self-hatred I had created through those videos. Later, I saw that it wasn't just me being a snowflake- it was a lot of people. Kalvin Garrah especially was known for his fanbase who dogpiled on anyone that didn't fit their view. CopsHateMoe has an excellent video detailing this.

[@fruity4820]

I had a similar experience with some shorts channel called "the comment section" or something like that. The name doesn't matter. It was a full grown woman with so much hate towards young people trying to make sense of themselves. I looked at that woman and all the people in her comments asked myself "if it annoys them so much why don't they just move on and forget about it?" And then I realize I need to do the exact same thing myself with this type of "reacting to cringy trans TikTok"

[@flaccidbabyteeth2602]

@@fruity4820 brett cooper?

[@bari_bari_bari]

This was such a wonderful video. What you said about the potential dangers of sticking a label on someone's confusion really struck a chord with me. When I was 14-15, instead of questioning why I liked girls but felt deep unbearable shame at the thought of being intimate with one, I just started calling myself "homoromantic heterosexual" because that's what I saw people doing on Tumblr. But at the same time, it was also extremely helpful to see that I wasn't the only person with complicated feelings. MOGAI for me was a way to have a conversation (albeit an extremely clumsy one) about how it's okay if your experiences don't line up 100% with the popular narrative. Edit: It's been a while and I just wanted to say that the reason I always had complicated feelings about my sexuality was that I'm actually a bi trans man. My attraction to both women and men always felt wrong -- I never really related to other lesbians, but also the thought of being perceived as a straight woman gave me face-melting-off dysphoria (though I couldn't put words to that feeling yet). It took 25 years but I'm glad to have finally figured myself out!

[@maito404]

I absolutely love this take on MOGAI labels - I've seen so many people just clown on them as kids trying to be special snowflakes online

[@shockedbaby2590]

I agree. As much as I don’t really like MOGAI, I don’t wanna hate like these commentary youtubers either. Just feels wrong

[@maya5689]

I'm so glad I found this video. I first joined the MOGAI Tumblr community when i was 11 or 12, around the same time of Tumblr's fade into obscurity (around 2016-2017). I even ran an editing blog, where I would make backgrounds and icons for people with gender and sexuality flags. The blog managed to reach almost 8k followers, until I officially closed it in mid-2019 (even if the number wasn't that big, it was such an ego boost for little me, and probably part of the reason I stuck around on Tumblr for so long) Needless to say, 12 year old me didn't know how I identified. First, I was straight. Then, I realized I was bisexual. Then I jumped from pansexual, to flux, to asexual and aromantic, to bisexual and demisexual, back to just bisexual. Not to say anything of my complicated relationship with gender, nor the online discourse I surrounded myself with. As I grew older (not that old lol, I turned 16 this year) I realized that most of those labels just.. weren't me. I wasn't asexual or aromantic, I was 13 and dealing with trauma. I wasn't demiromantic, I just preferred women and was forcing myself to like men. I won't act like these labels don't apply to some people, it just wasn't me. Joining the community at a young age, I felt like I needed a new, updated label every time I felt or experienced something different. Ranting aside, thank you for making this video essay in such a non-judgmental way. I've only ever seen MOGAI be talked about by either those within the community or those judging it from the outside. It's made it difficult for me, I'd met so many great people through MOGAI and it was a part of my self discovery, even if I did grow out of it and do disagree with a lot of it now. I know I'm a few months late to the party and you likely won't see even this but, regardless, thank you.

[@RyanTosh]

This has given me another perspective on why the MOGAI hate was so wrong. What you're describing just reminds me of...community. I'm in a small, niche computer science related community, and the way I've felt about that, I just get that same feeling from the first part of this post. And like, if my little niche coding community was being attacked by a ton of older people, and people with similar experiences even, I can imagine that'd be pretty awful.

[@Bela13]

I joined mogai in 2022 lol!

[@brutus3631]

Mogai and xenogender people moved to tiktok now, most I've seen are young teens and it's honestly so sad seeing other trans people bashing them in their comments or dueting them just to shit on them, like don't they see most of them are straight up children trying to figure themselves out? EDIT: hi a lot of people are replying to this thinking that i consider xenogender identities a kid only thing- i don't! i know that everyone of any age can identify as xenogender and i see no wrong in it, i just said that most of the xenogender people on TikTok are 12-16, since 1: that's the main TikTok demographic and 2: most of them are trying to figure themselves out and microlabels are one way to do it If you're xenogender then fuck yeah power to you!!!

[@Nakia11798]

It kinda hurts to see these confused teens be mocked by some people and pushed into labels by others. People need to let them find themselves.

[@romem1952]

I'm not a young teen anymore, and honestly I feel like the association of xenogenders with children kind of alienates the people who do use those labels. I feel like it's dismissive of the fact that people do use them.

[@brutus3631]

@@romem1952 oh no i absolutely know that adult people identify as xenogender, I'm just saying that many super specific mogai identities are created by young people who are trying to figure themselves out. i absolutely support xenogender people, no matter how specific or obscure their label might be and I'm sorry if my comment came off as dismissive of that!

[@lusiferm1187]

I couldn't agree more, I'm 15 and have a really unique relationship with my gender, and I've never found labels that truly fit except those considered "outside of the norm." I'm boyflux, but I've also found that I have a connection to certain xenogenders which I may use, and I currently use a few neopronouns alongside he/him. I don't understand why people are so quick to say that I'm supposedly "mocking the trans community" when I'm a trans person myself. Having a gender that differs from cishet standards and expectations doesnt mean I'm not trans, it means that I don't care about what cishet people think and want to feel free to express myself. Never anything harmful about that. People are way too eager to seek validation from transphobes, especially cis members of the community :/

[@user-mh7db7ei1s]

I think that seeing it happen on Tik Tok is even worse than when it happened on Tumblr simply because a lot of those young trans/enby show their faces, thus putting targets on their backs.

[@eli.muskett8645]

“Don’t say stupid shit online” They don’t know it’s stupid, they’re kids, even if they have experienced something big they have no real experience on something’s. In fact, they’re experiencing it now and you’re making it way harder. I know it’s cringeworthy to look back on when you experienced it, but do it. We all experience the same things usually. Guess what, I am too. And I understand exactly what I’m experiencing is something that will pass. Don’t make puberty harder, they’re gonna think what’s happening will last forever. My main feeling is just don’t make anyone wanna kill themselves. Especially *CHILDREN* you’re making them not wanna experience life before they even did in the first place. Edit : I made it sound like everyone experiences gender identity problems. Which isn’t true. Maybe to some extent it is but -

[@madelinevlogs5898]

I think all teens go through a similar thing like wondering “who am I? Who do I want to be friends with? What group do I fit into? What are my interests and passions?” And those questions can also be really stressful

[@Nakia11798]

Honestly just don't say anything online. Minors shouldn't have accounts on 18+ websites.

[@liasavvi6475]

I agree to this. In fact, if all they're doing is trying to find themselves, why pressure them not to? If identifying as a star is what makes them happy, why not let them do it?? Especially if they're not hurting anyone..

[@somethingclever8916]

How do we correct it? Have to be 18 to use the internet?

[@peppermint5117]

​@@somethingclever8916 im 14 rn and if that were the case, since im homeschooled i would: 1. have no education except the really flawed and religious ones my parents give 2. have no way of communication with the outside world 3. have no understanding of LGBTQ+ or mental health issues 4. not be able to email helplines 5. not be able to listen to music or have literally any way of taking a break because i literally was stuck at home most of my childhood, never been to school, only church a few times. so no thats a bad idea, things will be the same, just people will start learning only at 18 and wouldnt have anywhere to google if what they are experiencing is normal

[@zomboney8039]

dead genders sounds like a great name for an alt rock band

[@crystalcharofficial]

wait it does

[@kingoftropes922]

A 30+ minute well researched video on a subculture from a long time ago online I know next to nothing about? We eatin' *good* today

[@askfjk1102]

I'd also like to point out that MOGAI covers a westernized description of people's genders, especially English-speaking people. many POC have their own understanding of the gender and sexuality spectrum and these identities can often be exclusive to these people and their cultures with many identities have been lost due to colonization. I do think it's interesting the attempt to categorize one's gender down to the very specifics and I really wonder if that is because of a lack of cultural identity that seems to be so prevalent in westernized spaces, either because as a POC you've been assimilated to western lifestyles or as a non-POC who has grown up in a westernized country/community, especially on the internet where you can show your true self, as opposed to how you present yourself, say, around your homophobic transphobic grandparents, where comparatively in POC's cultures, POC whose gender and sexuality spectrum differed from others were often respected, even worshiped in some parts of the world and some even had religions who had people representing them and their gender identities and sexualities as well. They had a strong sense of community and identity because their cultures reaffirmed both so. MOGAI perhaps is a result of westernization, especially on the internet, as Non-POC, who have never had a sense of cultural identity that validates their existence to begin with nor can they ever go back and find their reaffirmation in their cultures, languages, and religion because it never existed, to begin with, and as a result, can't present themselves as who they are within IRL communities because of western stigmas and societal/familial pressures.

[@catherinetyndale1734]

A lot of western culture is influenced by Christianity. In christianity only male and female were talked about and if people identified outside these binaries they were seen as a bad person and someone who will be punished for it. Not only that there were no words to describe those who fell in between and outside these binaries.

[@keepyourshoesathedoor]

I’m a POC. Black, to be specific, and born in the US with family who has been here since the 1600s or more. Could be different but I can’t tell you because of colonization here. You are right but your comment sounds very smug. Most of us don’t have a culture that allows us do gendered things comfortably or happily. Not even the POC who lived here for years. Majority of us been stripped of lands and identities and don’t learn anything about our cultures to the point none of us can place them. Many Black people here are forced to assimilate to Christianity and if they don’t they live in a bitter state of Atheism and anger. However, our philosophy only allows two genders, whatever capitalism mindsets, and femininity and masculinity. Any time someone brings of gender, they’d have the binary genitalia talk that excludes and terrorizes intersex people. Most Black people here will think that a person is embarrassing to them if they talk about not feeling a particular way. It’s shoved down our throats of a binary gender that the point of trying to escape is a form of ostracism or a burden. We live under Christianity and Western standards that honestly came out of nowhere, some of original cultures that our ancestors had died in the ship. Now for me? I don’t feel like POC but everything about me is so vague right now, I don’t have cultures, ceremonies, in honor of what I do. I don’t get to have my body or hang out with anyone. I feel alone and not Black enough, too white, and weird with odd religious thoughts. I spend my days making characters do that because I’ll never have that connection. 🤷🏾

[@Chrysobubulle]

Not westernized: americanized. Make not mistake, this is first and foremost an american thing. That then is carried away to other western countries though american cultural imperialism. But it is an american thing.

[@thag_simmons]

idk, I would argue that spain, portugal, and the UK have done comparable colonial damage, particularly when taking missionaries into account

[@eliebelkin6273]

@@Chrysobubulle I don't see how strict gender binaries and a lack of non-binary identities or cultural signifiers for them are unique to America compared to... basically any part of Western or Central Europe?

[@derekjackson8465]

It makes me cringe seeing other Transfolk ripping on these kids. Let them explore ffs.

[@normanclatcher]

Nice PFP. Is that from Stanley?

[@gaysatan4565]

Ikr. My sibling rn is gender fluid. In my own opinion, gender identity is personal. If I go by they/them pronouns, whatever. Even if you don’t get it, cause tbh gender is confusing, no one is hurting you by not identifying with the gender binary

[@deepfriedspaghetti982]

@@gaysatan4565 yea but seeing kids idetify as traumagender or bloodgender and shit like that feels really worrying yknow

[@gaysatan4565]

@@deepfriedspaghetti982 that’s true! There’s a lot of stuff like that’s worrying like that, but I still think most of these gender identities are just kids trying to be unique/identify themselves.

[@lgbtqiarights]

@@deepfriedspaghetti982 more often than not the people under those labels are neurodivergent (adhd, autism, etc.). they interpret gender differently because their brains are just wired in a unique way. doesnt hurt anyone anyway

[@ikaart6247]

Honestly, all these flags make great color pallets.

[@god_2.0_the_better_version]

I know, my pfp is the pretty much the only thing I haven't used pride flags as a color pallet for lol

[@alexmacgregor9631]

This was really great! I know I was stuck in the MOGAI community for years and it made everything so much more difficult for me to actually explore myself and my identity and actually stunted my growth in that. There were some things in the community that were genuinely helpful for people but it was so stagnant and hyper online

[@autumn7809]

As a cis person (queer, but cis) who has been on the sidelines watching all of this, this presentation opened my third eye. Thank you.

[@NBvagabond]

I'm really glad I didn't find mogai until a little while after I was comfortable with myself as nonbinary. Being "just" nonbinary, I probably would have leaned into the pathologizing of gender experience a lot of these labels did, trying to put an exact, detailed pin in my experience. I did have some trouble with the sexuality side of mogai (I IDed as wtf/quoiromantic, meaning I couldn't tell the difference between romantic and platonic feelings. Turns out I was just autistic, and actually had a crush on my best friend so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) but again I mean. I was like 13. All thirteen year olds are cringey and weird and I think this was just our way of trying to gain any control over our lives

[@PanthereaLeonis]

My autistic butt still struggles with attraction in general. Got my eyes set on aro/ace for now, but who tf knows. Maybe I'll figure out what attraction really is later. I've definitely had squishes, where I've seen someone and just wanted to be their friend. Like, talk to them about aeroplanes or some dumb stuff, but I've never seen anyone and thought I want to hug and hold this person or something? Feelings are weird. Autism is making things weird.

[@nyassaisleaving990]

i did exactly the same thing! i’m also autistic and i’ve known i was a lesbian since i was quite young but when i was 12/13 i also identified with both arospec and acespec identities (including quoiromantic) for a while because i wanted an explanation for my emotional confusion but really it was just me being an average 13 year old.

[@elm._.]

Omg i found my fellow autistics! When I was searching for a label to describe my asexuality I actually found quoisexual and thought it might describe me. Nowadays I just identity as queer, but if I get into labels I'll say im aegosexual, which has a definition on the asexuality wiki. I like my labels and I think they fit however im not as attached to them as I was when I first found them. I feel like for a lot of people the label just means there are people like you and that means you're not alone 😊 I also feel like the asexuality and aromatic spectrums are just like that, you feel like you can't identify as either if you aren't void of any and all sexual or romantic feelings and this may make you feel even more pressured to label yourself. I don't think it's emphasized enough that asexuality and aromanticism are spectrums and so you may land anywhere on it.

[@hadley269]

This is 100% true. I consider myself pansexual, but what that means for me can mean something totally different for another person who identifies with the same label.

[@purgxzur1]

Same tbh though you can be autistic, wtfromantic and have a crush on your best friend at the same time -as an autistic person who has had a crush on his best friend and I could technically be counted as wtfromantic but I don't openly identify that way

[@sincerecinnamon]

I am 14, and I am genderfluid, but I almost settled on a wrong label that didn't fit me because I was confused. I tried to use girlflux because I knew my gender fluctuated, but I am AFAB, and I wanted to keep feeling AFAB. I am in a Christian area in Texas, so I think that I found a small gender to try and hide to feel as "normal" as I could. I'm still very much on my gender and sexuality journey to accept everything and come out, but I feel bad for the confused labels because I know first hand that it's easy to settle for something that doesn't fit you if you don't try to dig any deeper.

[@tallussy_hallussy]

i love ur domo pfp

[@sincerecinnamon]

@@tallussy_hallussy Thank you! It's a sock monkey domo I got as a young kid that I still have to this day :))

[@tallussy_hallussy]

@@sincerecinnamon you're welcome! It's adorable ^^

[@nomethodonlymadness9528]

When I was a teenager and all my friends were talking about how hot they found boys and all that I went searching for why I wasn't like that. I was in denial about finding girls attractive, so I searched Tumblr. I found like 100 different labels that I fell under and just ended up more confused and just gave up on it. Finally at 24 I accepted I was a lesbian and am much happier.

[@Nakia11798]

I'm glad you found yourself! What you explained here is the exact problem with MOGAI. People go looking for information and they get confused seeing so many options. I convinced myself for years that I wasn't cis, and in reality, I'm just GNC. Because that's what it is when you're comfortable with your sex and just don't conform to gender roles. Not Demi-girl or agender or non-binary. Non-binary people exist, but MOGAI has made it seem WAY more common than it really is. A lot of young women who are rejecting femininity for whatever reason are being lead to believe they're not women.

[@jinkieez]

@@Nakia11798 yea i hate when it's like "youre not a walking stereotype of a woman? non binary!" like....no.....

[@ene_ai]

When it comes to talking with people who are questioning or still figuring things out, I always try to encourage a view in which one's perspective on their own gender is allowed to change over time. Gender is messy and complex and if you feel one way today, it is okay to feel differently tomorrow, the next month, or even ten years later. I don't think the labels on MOGAI are inherently a bad thing. Even if nobody actively uses that label, it has very little utilitarian value, and it descends into obscurity, if it helped one person in their journey to understand themselves and understand gender as a whole I think it was worth it, even if that person was just the creator of the label themselves.

[@AmyJ_ThaFurryWitch]

Exactly! It's not an inherently bad thing for someone trying to figure out what they are to adopt a term, grow out of it, and find something else that fits a lot better. It's all a part of the human experience to grow and change.

[@Alexgarcia-cn9vh]

I first saw your mushroom's poster and I was like "Oh, a fellow lesbian" and then I felt bad for assuming your sexuality, sorry for that (? (I love your room's decoration btw) I loved your video, I had a mental debate about all those different and strange new gender identities and you cleared it up! Thank you so much for doing such a good work!

[@lily_lxndr]

Assume all you want! It's definitely the vibe I'm trying to put out, haha

[@s2sHoXXs2]

i love that mushroom poster!! i have one very similar in my room (im a gay transmasc tho)

[@OmenaOmega]

Are mushrooms a lesbian thing? Just asking... for a friend

[@Alexgarcia-cn9vh]

@@OmenaOmega My theory is that lesbians are weirdly attracted to mushrooms OR/AND frogs, I don't have proofs but neither doubts

[@ZA1ISTYPING_]

@@Alexgarcia-cn9vh what if ur a non binary and like those stuffs too?

[@reanimatedmanx]

As a straight white male based in a third world country, I find this to be very interesting & insightful, thanks for the hard work and research involved in this video 💖

[@Spubbily01]

I like to imagine the real meaning is that you're based, and in a third world country.

[@MetalBansheeX]

@Spubbily01 Well, based on what he said, he truly is based.

[@359339]

Great video. Though I think there are two important aspects missing. One: It's significant that the MOGAI community were creating new gender labels for people to feel validated by, because for a lot of these folks, identifying with an existing label felt like being an intruder/imposter. I'm a whole ass adult and I still feel like I'm stepping on people's toes if I call myself cis or trans; my nonbinaryness feels like an inconvenient accident. As much as critics/bullies said that these people were trying to claim marginalized identities they weren't entitled to, really the creation of new labels was about /not/ doing that very thing. Two: Gender confusion is really prevalent among autistic people and ADHD brains, and that experience is very visible online but obscured in most real life queer spaces. A big part of our social power is confined to the written word, both because that's a more accessible way for a lot of us to communicate our thoughts, and because people online will announce their identities so it's possible to find kindred spirits and have less diplomatically simplified conversations. Cultural/social norms are challenging enough when you're not neurotypical, and gender norms are even worse because there's supposed to be a performance that satisfies others that's also related to an internal feeling. Impossible!

[@ilexdiapason]

just marked your account "trans-friendly" on the shinigami eyes chrome extension, you've made it lol

[@amiaswolfgang]

its really not... she just,,, attacked mogai identities for 20 minutes

[@lauren-db8zg]

@@amiaswolfgang what part of this video was an attack? it seems to me like she really tried to understand and be charitable to the community while still critiquing its shortcomings

[@mparagames]

@Pingo how does it work?

[@mparagames]

@Pingo i see. interesting concept :P

[@PARAQS]

@@amiaswolfgang did you not watch the video or are you purposefully being obtuse

[@UtauReni]

IMAGINE MY SURPRISE to see that this video only has slightly over 4000 views (at the time of writing)!!! This is absolutely brilliantly researched & produced!! I'm so happy KZbin algorithm'd me onto your channel!!

[@lily_lxndr]

Thank you so much! It’s starting to get picked up by the algorithm, which has never happened for me before, so you never know!

[@amiaswolfgang]

its really not... its incredibly harmful to people who use mogai labels... please dont listen to OP...

[@blazekitsune]

@@amiaswolfgang what do you mean?

[@amiaswolfgang]

@@blazekitsune OP actively insulted several labels, calling the people who used them "confused" and accusing them of putting other genders in boxes. As someone who uses the masc equivalent of juxera, I can't help but see another fake, someone who pretends to support us just so they can attack us and wear us down. It's so common for someone to say they support us and then go on to invalidate us left and right, and what's even worse about this video is that she is telling our story for us in the process while hurting us.

[@blazekitsune]

@@amiaswolfgang ooookkkk then.........

[@ayedunno3255]

I’m nonbinary and also neurodivergent. I also didn’t grow up on tumblr or in the queer community at all. I started identifying as nonbinary at the age of 18. I, full of internalized transphobia and anti-trans cringe, thought MOGAI genders were the worst things on the internet because all I’d ever heard was people bullying nonbinary people because of MOGAI genders. I started questioning my gender as young as 12, but there was no such thing as trans in my vocabulary; I wasn’t raised online. I didn’t have access to tumblr or social media. Now, I’m 21 and on HRT. That being said, the vastness of nonbinary freaks me out. The broadness of the label is not a bad thing! I just like labels. And although I use it as my go-to term, I really would like a more specific label. I’ve more recently turned to old MOGAI dictionaries for help, and, after a year of searching and considering, I found a MOGAI label that I liked and swapped it around so I liked it. I feel very weird as an adult using neopronouns (I use both they/them and ey/em, but I only tell very close friends about the ey/em ones) and a gender label based on a word my autistic brain relates to that I don’t tell anyone. I feel embarrassed, even though this label feels very right for me at the moment, because I already struggle so hard to be seen as an adult as an autistic person, I don’t want to be infantilized and associated with the 15 year-olds who are also using these labels. I don’t consume much trans content. The first trans video I ever saw was a Calvin video when I was at the age of 17. This is the first video of yours I’ve ever seen. I know that I always battle my internalized transphobia and nonbinaryphobia, and I wish that people, especially these big popular binary trans people, didn’t make it so difficult.

[@mattiecastillo2683]

Shellgender sounds like trying to define being an egg as it's own gender rather than a step in self discovery.

[@PanthereaLeonis]

Or like being in denial, presenting as one thing, but it feels not really there. But yes. We don't need a million terms for "I don't really know what I am yet." We need only one word. Questioning. That is usually a phase, and it's fine, and it's a journey. Being plural and just now getting to truly know who we& all are, there's been a lot of questioning. Questioning gender, sexuality and all sorts of things. Heck, we don't even all like the same food. It's okay to question things, and to not have an answer right away.

[@lucymartyr4364]

@@diydylana3151 there’s actually a label for when your just SO done with gender & sexuality. It’s called quoigender/sexual/romantic.

[@foldingsystem3814]

Shell gender sounds like trying to explain the gender of a shell alter. Actually looking at a lot of MOGAI labels, it sounds like people with dissociative identity disorder trying to explain the clusterfck of gender one experiences when they don't have a single unified identity, but assume all those identities are a single one.

[@siblinghoodsys]

@@foldingsystem3814 Big agree from us as well

[@inihilisme1511]

@@PanthereaLeonis well, with your logic, let's remove every lgbt word.... yay... so useless.... or maybe some details are different ?

[@EldenaDoubleca5t]

god, MOGAI being mostly 13 year old explains LITERALLY EVERYTHING about MOGAI

[@gezh88]

This comment section is the met gala for trans youtubers right now

[@adrianmalmstrom2771]

@@gezh88 um

[@koribailey5305]

Yeah bc at 13 your views change, because it's like that for a lot of your teenage years until your brain fully develops. Lmao.

[@lgbtqiarights]

really not just that. a lot of mogai identities were formed by neurodivergent people. it’s why sexualities and genders within it can seem strange

[@catherinetyndale1734]

@@lgbtqiarights Neurodivergent conditions can affect the way that you view your gender so it makes sense that it doesn't make sense to neurotypical people. Because it can only be understood through a neurodivergent lens.

[@rangerartemis9579]

This was incredibly well produced, outlined, and articulated. I feel like a lot of the KZbin "analyses" I watch barely make a coherent point. This, on the other hand, was phenomenal! I'm so lucky to have found your channel this early, guarantee you won't be small for long

[@louloudaki_]

also to whoever that anon who was trying to figure out how their dysphoria: i’m a trans enby guy, and i’m very feminine. being feminine doesn’t mean you can’t be male. if you feel like you’re a male but you wanna be feminine? hell yea dude! join the club!

[@JuliusCaesar2005]

say it with me friends; *presentation! does! not! equal! gender!* and good for you!! be who you want, dress how you want cause you are you and that is something special

[@bingobongo7335]

yeah! just look at gottmik!

[@procyon2911]

@ahwwhhzh Hey, I think a good idea for you right now would to focus on what _you_ want. I know it's been a bit since you made the comment, but I feel like the term "androgynous" or "nonbinary" would be good for you right now. It's very vague, and lets you define your meaning of the term. I felt similar when I was figuring myself out. Though, you did say you like being a girl, and that you want a flat chest and to not have a period, so it might just be your body. There's a few things you can do depending on your age, if you're close to moving out (like around 16-18) then you might wanna look into surgeries. If you're younger (like 12-15) you might want to see puberty blockers. BIG thing though. Before you do anything, try to get or talk to a gender therapist, since I imagine they would be more helpful to you than I, a random internet stranger. Hope this helps!

[@valerielefebvre927]

omg that response angered me(not yours but the one in the video). Instead of helping this confused kid, they shamed them for using the wrong term. that's fucked. what they did just taught them that you have to express yourself in a way that is how everyone says it with no space to be wrong about anything.

[@connorscorner443]

I'm a femme trans guy. Hehe so much makeup.

[@L_Aster]

I was supportive of mogai in the 'if it makes people happy that's good for them, I don't understand it but I still support it' way that was actually more like 'this is a thing that makes me self reflect too much so I'm just going to ignore it' until I saw a random post with a bunch of flags I hadn't seen before. I wanted to know what they meant so I looked it up and went down a rabbit hole of mogai identities where I ended up seeing myself. I realized that alexigender, one of the identities I'd seen a flag for, felt incredibly close to home for me. I hadn't thought of my gender identity and autism being linked before, but since it influences everything else in my life, why not gender? I also learned about alexithymia for the first time and finding out why I am the way I am with emotions has been so so helpful. Learning more about mogai has made a genuinely positive impact on my life, I'm so glad I did.

[@mparagames]

hm

[@midnight.tantrum727]

ive only just begun my gender identity journey this past year. I always say that the “way my brain works” is that i desire to know everything about myself down to the specific label. I am well aware that i do not need a label to have my experience be valid and “real”, but all the same, that desire to pinpoint exactly what i am feeling itches at my brain. this is a very difficult trait to have, especially when trying to figure out my relationship with gender and presentation. the most common labels within the community have never really described how my experience feels. they’ve always felt too broad or too hollow, and left me questioning myself even further despite me being in a constant state of confusion anyway. this comment is the first time i have looked into a term (one that i’ve never heard of) and had it resonate with me. maybe not to the fullest degree of my experience, but definitely one step closer to understanding and putting a label on my experience. thank you for introducing me to this new term

[@pozzsicle]

Thank you for showing me my new label kind stranger.

[@L_Aster]

@@pozzsicle I’m so glad!

[@L_Aster]

@@midnight.tantrum727 oh man that’s all so relatable to me

[@sylph8005]

8:00 I saw the word "forestkin" but didn't see the t...

[@andromeda_va39]

Oh dear

[@4DD3R]

I was part of a community that was definitely the crumbling remains of the MOGAI community, and what you said about labels that quite literally describe being confused is super accurate. I remember I scrolled through and read through thousands of identities just trying to find something that resonated with how confused and scared I felt because I didn’t want to accept that maybe I was just trans.

[@aleigha_irene]

the way you went in with kalvin, ryan, and blaire i- they’re so toxic

[@irongirltoni]

I can't believe i used to follow them 🤢 I learned that conservatives can't be trusted, as that is basically the bigoted party.

[@Blue_910]

Ryan posted a comment! You should read it

[@gaysatan4565]

@@irongirltoniDon’t feel bad for liking them at one point, mindsets change and as you get older you see through their bs

[@keckingrabbit354]

@@irongirltoni there are some good conservatives out there

[@salemcrow5078]

@@irongirltoni I don't think that's the most healthy way of going about it, personally with conservatives/republicans I just kinda figure out where their beliefs lie. Most of the one I know aren't bigoted tbh

[@em9325]

holy shit this video just made me question everything i believe about trans people, i was a truscum but idk if thats even correct i just want to thank you for putting this in the r/truscum subreddit or else i would have never found it

[@lily_lxndr]

Hey, I’m super glad you got something out of the video. There’s tons of other content like this on KZbin - I highly recommend Milo Stewart’s stuff on depathologization, and the many response videos to Kalvin Garrah thatve been coming out lately. Take care!

[@kraft.singles]

this is wholesome thanks for getting educated, legend behavior

[@em9325]

@@kraft.singles hell yeah, i recently left the subreddt and discord server all together, growth is a good thing, im glad i found something to push that along

[@phoneheaded]

@@em9325 You might like Mia Mudler's video Transexuals and Suffering for more on the evolution of trucsum ideals and trans history.

[@biandanxious3438]

@@phoneheaded Not to be the grammar police but it’s transgender not transsexual.

[@thesupremecatlord3188]

I remember finding MOGAI stuff in 2014 or so and as a closeted trans person who didn't even know it, I found lots of comfort in it. I viewed (and still view) these terms less as labels and more as descriptors. It was comforting knowing there were other people who felt similarly to me and that I wasn't as weird or unnatural as I thought I was. I've since moved on and and found use in the term "non-binary" given it's an umbrella term. That doesn't mean that I now dislike the MOGAI community. I look upon the accounts, people and posts with fondness as they helped me on a journey to figure myself out.

[@yukiandkanamekuran]

I agree with this a lot. These are descriptors to help describe what I'm experiencing.

[@JennaGetsCreative]

I'm a 34 year old non-binary individual, and while I get the messiness of MOGAI, I do find some of the labels MOGAI popularized are more effective than the less-specific LGBTQIA+ umbrellas they belong under. I latched onto "bisuexual" as a teen because that was the only "LGBTQ" letter that somewhat fit me back in the early 2000s and those letters were all I knew. Then in my 20s I learned about pansexuality and thought "yes, that, wait... what's the difference?" And because the difference is complexly linked to "parts" vs gender, I was quite confused. When MOGAI finally came across my radar, I explored other labels. I realized I can label sexual and romantic attraction separately. I realized I was confused about how to define my attraction because I'm demisexual, panromantic. I'm romantically attracted first, to anybody regardless of gender. Sexual attraction builds within a romantic relationship. I also realized that "I'm AFAB and that's fine, sometimes I play up the fem, but mostly I really don't feel gender at all" makes me non-binary sliding into agender, and I'm completely fine just being known as non-binary, but under MOGAI I can introduce myself as demigirl. I feel like if you think about that word, demi-girl, you might get a better idea of my gender than if I simply say non-binary.

[@fourthpanda]

Although my identity is very different than yours I highly agree with your sentiment. Some MOGAI labels ate legitimately useful at helping me parse out where some stuff starts and other stuff stops. This isn't necessarily something that everyone wants but for me I like specifics so it really helped me.

[@lolcandyyy]

I don’t consider demigirl a MOGAI label, I don’t consider many specific genders MOGAI like genderfluid or agender or bigender. I think MOGAI only refers to the vague and confusing labels like xenogender

[@JennaGetsCreative]

@@lolcandyyy The demi gender labels were literally created by the MOGAI community.

[@lolcandyyy]

@@JennaGetsCreative oh okay, I didn’t know

[@UD503J]

I identified for years as bi before I'd even heard the term pansexual and even panromantic, and when it was explained in a (Reddit) comment thread I realized that it was the way I had always felt. In mixed company (that is, people that think that all LGBTQIA people are either "gays" or "lesbians"), it's easier to say bi because I'd have to explain the nuances...and honestly it's really none of their business anyhow. I don't need everyone I meet to know my full gender and sexual identity history, but I'm glad that my close friends can understand and appreciate the difference. It wasn't originally MOGAI, but the Reddit thread that provided those labels certainly helped me appreciate who I was as a person. A few years ago I had a conversation with a coworker who is a close friend who previously had said negative things about LGBTQIA people because of the way they'd been brought up, in a majority Catholic household hearing nothing but hate against us. I'm not out at work because of all kinds of other factors, but I came out to them and told them the story about how I found that I was pansexual and panro, and they were one of those people I'd mentioned before, thinking its all just "gays" and "lesbians". The issue with a lot of cis people thinking the labels are nonsense is because they don't understand how they're applied. I'm glad I did come out to them because they are legitimately one of my best friends now and has even come to a Pride event with me.