Mindscape 179 | David Reich on Genetics and Ancient Humanity

Patreon: / seanmcarroll
Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
Human beings like to divide themselves into groups, and then cooperate, socialize, and reproduce with members of their own group. But they’re not very absolutist about it; groups tend to gradually (or suddenly) intermingle, as people explore, intermarry, or conquer each other. David Reich has pioneered the use of genetic data in uncovering the history of ancient humanity: what groups existed where and when, and how they interacted. The result is a picture of churning populations in constant flux, including “ghost populations” that no longer exist today.
David Reich received his Ph.D. in zoology from the University of Oxford. He is currently a professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School. Among his awards are the Dan David Prize, the National Academy of Sciences Award in Molecular Biology, the Wiley Prize, the Darwin-Wallace Medal, and the Massry Prize. He is the author of Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past.
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[@KevinArdala01]

I'm currently re-reading Dr. Reich's book 'Who We Are And How We Got Here" for the fourth time and taking detailed notes - it's my favourite book and is surprisingly readable. My only hope is that he writes a follow-up book, either providing more resolution for Africa, or any other fascinating discoveries he's been working on...can't recommend it enough. ✌

[@vedser]

@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 is there up to date book then?

[@nyrdybyrd1702]

Prof. Carroll works so very hard for us & I’m so very appreciative. 💙

[@skatekraft]

Me, too ❤️

[@MrMrbloobloo]

This topic is so amazing! Fantastic guest

[@EasyLifeEntertainment]

this is what mindscape is about for me, constant stream of info = just a pleasure to listen !

[@kens.9406]

wow, so much information, and still so many questions, wish it was longer, will definitely watch again !

[@DeclanMBrennan]

Fascinating. I'd love to see an interactive visualizer of population movements and mixing based on our current best understanding.

[@rayffis]

His book also had some interesting analysis about population bottlenecks (the example being endogamy in India) ... Some revisionist historians have suggested that the caste system hasn't stood for that long and it was British that strengthened the segregation. When the author and his colleagues tested to see what is the genetic differentiation between jatis, they found that the differentiation was at least 3 times greater than among European groups separated by similar geographic distances. Famous population bottlenecks in the European ancestry include the Finnish people (around two thousand years ago), Ashkenazi Jews (around six hundred years ago), and religious dissenters like Amish and Hutterites. The genetic data told a clear story: around a third of Indian groups experienced population bottlenecks as strong or stronger than the ones that occurred among Finns or Ashkenazi Jews. Many of the bottlenecks in India are also exceedingly old. For example one middle class caste Vysya (that includes 5 million people) in Indian state of Andhra Pradesh the bottleneck timing was 3500-2000 years old. This means that this caste had maintained strict endogamy and allowed essentially no genetic mixing for thousands of years. Even an average rate of 1% mixing would have erased the genetic signal of the bottleneck. Vysya did not live in geographic isolation. Instead they lived in densely populated part of India. Despite proximity the genetic migration was essentially nil. People tend to think India as a single population mass. In reality the genetic differentiation among Indian jati groups living side by side in the same village is typically 2 to 3 times higher than the genetic differentiation between northern and southern Europeans. The truth is that India is composed of a large number of small populations. In comparison Han Chinese are is truly a large population that has been freely mixing for thousands of years.

[@tomhrio]

"thats a philosophical question" im gonna start using this copout

[@Notmehimorthem]

Davud Reich does some superb work. YThis is real cutting edge and will change our understanding of our own evolution dramaticallyt and accurately. This is also SO clear!

[@mohdnoor9974]

Thank you Sean and David

[@rayffis]

Read his book last month. Lots of interesting info and shows how archaeological methods are often misleading when trying to infer how the populations have mixed and migrated. For example: Prior to the spread of Beaker culture into Britain, not a single ancient DNA sample from among the many dozens of samples contained steppe ancestry. After the point of ~4500 years ago, all the British samples contained strong steppe ancestry (indistinguishable from the DNA that is found across the channel in European mainland). Skeletons from the bronze age that followed the Beaker period had at most 10 percent ancestry from the first farmers. Drastic population replacement. Bell Beaker culture was very different from the Corded War culture, which in turn was very different from the Yamnaya culture. But they shared the same steppe ancestry. Prior to the genetic findings, any claim that a new way of seeing the world could have been shared across cultures as archeologically different from one another as the Yamnaya, Corded Ware, and Bell Beaker were dismissed as fanciful. ... A great lesson of the ancient DNA revolution is that its account of migrations are very different from pre-existing models, showing ho little we knew about human migration and population formation. The farmers who lived about 8800-4500 years ago in Germany, Spain, Hungary, and Anatolia. Ancient farmers from all these places were genetically similar to present-day sardinians showing that a pioneer farmer population had landed in Greece probably from Anatolia, and then spread to Iberia in the west and Germany in the north, retaining at least 90 percent of their DNA from that immigrant source, which meant that they mixed minimally with the hunter-gatherers they encountered along the way.

[@richardfraser1562]

Excellent. Thank you.

[@gkelly34]

That just blew my mind. Fascinating interview

[@bubaks2]

the adds should be kept to the beginning of the podcast. PS: love the podcast. thanks so much really

[@comets4sale]

Such high octane conversation. The back and forth is so crisp, and the intellectual exchange at not just a high level but sheer rate of efficiency--far less bullshitty hemming and hawing you get on other frankly pseudo-intellectual podcasts.

[@MrGroetale]

In the thumbnail I thought it was Juan Maldacena. Can't see that he has been on the mindscape. Anyway almost everything Prof Carroll talks about is interesting so looking forward to listening to this.

[@bethbartlett5692]

I've come to admire Dr Reich for his Authentic Academic Standard, ie: fully adheres to the "Standards of Science and Research" which prohibits using a Theory as Fact. He has exhibited the urmost in Ethics, through his research, correcting presumed ideas/theories, and noting the greater facts, through Peer Reviewed Science. Truly desirable Science Quality. Note: I find the value of Dr Reich's Undergrad a "fortunate value" to his subsequent choice in Professional works. Although he notes his lack if 8nterestv8n Philosophy, it is of vast importance that he 8s able to engage both lobes in his work, despite the resistance of the 20th Century influenced by "Mainstream Academia's Paradigm". A subject that will be seen as fading, now that we are entered inti a Lab Based Science Foundation of Humanity. Beth Bartlett Sociologist/Behavioralist and Historian

[@DeclanMBrennan]

For David Reich: "That would be a philosophical question" appears to be his version of Father's Ted's: "That would be an ecumenical matter". :-)

[@johnnycharisma162]

The way this guy responds and articulates reminds me very much of Steven Pinker.

[@frankdelahue9761]

I have problem with remembering information from these podcasts. I forget most of the info from them.

[@MarvinMonroe]

Apparently Reich includes people from the Andaman Islands in with Southern Indians. This greatly exaggerates the genetic differences between people from the Northern and Southern sections of the Indian Subcontinent

[@mrloop1530]

David Reich sounds exactly like Steven Pinker. Great episode on a fascinating subject.

[@mrloop1530]

@@myutubechannel_nr1 Maybe something went awry with the collapse of some wavefunction. Would be nice to have this matter resolved in Sean's next AMA.

[@comets4sale]

True, but even more crisp, articulate, and on point, in my opinion.

[@frilansspion]

@@myutubechannel_nr1He does have something lisp-like with sh, th and ch sounds that Pinker doesnt have. But very similar yeah

[@KevinArdala01]

If ever there was a book that deserved a *Folio* *Society* edition, this is it...

[@radical137]

Wow, this was illuminating and important for multiple disciplines of research. David Reich seemed like he was trying to be a little too careful for this kind of interview IMO, he was holding back. I understand that his work is extremely controversial to some, Hindu nationalists will likely be outraged. Discussions of the definition of species in the terms of early man is controversial as some may use it for to promote racial division. I think there are more surprises to come in the line of research.

[@AliTheIrfan]

Very suprised that dr reich didn't mention anything regarding those yamnaya cultures connection to dairy farming plus lactose tolerance of these people.

[@hughJ]

Reading the reactions to his NYT op-eds from 2018 explains why he seems so cagey here about straying outside the vocabulary of his field and being unwilling to make inferences or speculations, even if they're explicitly couched as musings for the sake of conversation. It makes for an interview that feels rigid or combative at times, but it's probably necessary if there's a contingent of people out there looking to make an example of him.

[@malachi-]

That's what political correctness does to everything it touches.

[@stanleywilliams4429]

Native Americans are going to disagree about your timeline for the settlement of the Americas and frankly yeah I think looking at some of the of the ancient tombs and temples. The human activity around the America probably started out a lot earlier. Still think about that humans skull was found in 1866 in California, it was about 2 million years worth of gravel.

[@casiandsouza7031]

I recall seeing an observation in Scotland of a correlation of mitochondria haplotypes to intelligence. This suggests that mitochondria differ in their ability to enable chromosome potential. It could account for our smaller brain being more efficient than the large neanderthal one. The evolution of our mitochondria could explain us surviving other hominids. Mitochondria could have a life of their own outcompeting each other in migration and survival. It is also possible mitochondria differ in their compatibility with different genotypes. It would be nice if the mitochondria genome compatibility could be evaluated in thoroughbreds.

[@DestroManiak]

Wake up sweetie, new Mindscape podcast just dropped.

[@AliTheIrfan]

Its refreshing to hear that a jewish man affirms his ancestry is from Europe rather than near east Palestine/ modern day Israel. But would not be suprise if in the future his family or posterity settled in Palestine and loudly claiming that its their ancestral home. While consciously expelling the native just because they are now Christians or muslims... With due Respect to dr. Reich. ❤ frm A'irYan.

[@geneticjen9312]

“I grew up with Neanderthals” - Sean Carroll Heard it here first

[@jeffsnow7547]

David is Steven Pinker's voice twin.

[@dylangrahamhusmann3418]

I fuckin love david reich here we fo

[@smoogems]

Thats what I'm talking boot

[@thestrongdadprotocol]

I'm getting real Charles Murray vibes from this.

[@TheShootist]

trust (the) science, eh? /sarc. murray follows the facts where they lead, as should you.

[@CP-yl5bl]

Population of South Asia ( specially India)has much more documented history in their historical scriptures.There is definately 12000 years history documented in Rig Veda.There is also evidence of man made structures in Bay of Cambay which is under water now due to melting of ice at the end of Ice age which is about 12000 years ago.

[@puppetperception7861]

Homo Erectus was an aquatic ape

[@Raydensheraj]

Now please post the evidence and research done on your - cough, cough - hYpoTHeSiS

[@puppetperception7861]

@@Raydensheraj sure. I can also demonstrate

[@puppetperception7861]

@@Raydensheraj The partial webbing between my fingers Subcutaneous fat layer The ability to swim at childbirth but not walk Lack of hair on back etc… Comparing this to all other primates who do not have a resting upright posture, there is only one meaningful way to distinguish a difference

[@Raydensheraj]

@@puppetperception7861 Partial webbing between your fingers?!?! WTF You cranks crack me up.

[@puppetperception7861]

@@Raydensheraj what then is your explanation for these unique adaptations? No other primates have them

[@christianbaughn199]

So back in the day, humans got it on with neanderthals. Are there any pure humans left, or instead what are the odds of a (I'm assuming African) human having pure human DNA ancestry?

[@peterjf7723]

Yes people in Africa are pure Homosapiens sapiens, the rest of the non Africans population has between 1.5 to 2.5 percent Neanderthal genes.

[@christianbaughn199]

@@peterjf7723 Thank you Peter

[@CorwynGC]

There is no such thing as *pure* anything ancestry. The question doesn't even make sense. Purebred animals just pick an arbitrary ancestor and put a label on that individuals descendants.

[@christianbaughn199]

@@CorwynGC Sorry the question doesn't make sense to you. At some point there would have been humans whose ancestors hadn't bred with neanderthals or humans containing neanderthal DNA. I guess I was just thinking out loud, wondering if there were human beings alive today who contain no neanderthal DNA

[@twonumber22]

I remember reading something (probably eurekalert) a year or two ago that said the thinking now is that all modern humans have some Neanderthal genetics, including modern Africans.

[@bethbartlett5692]

BTW, I cant imagine the Pressure on Dr Reich, by the sheer impact of his business, holding the very real strength to "Change the Paradigm". On a separate point, II notice his interest/Passion is equal in the Research Methodologies, as 8n the Research. I find this highly valuable to his field and potentuals for greater discovery data sets. Beth Bartlett Sociologist/Behavioralist and Historian

[@nowhereman8374]

I wish Dr Carroll would have ask Dr. Reich about an earlier podcast guest's, Adam Rutherford, statement about chromosome 2 being formed from two other chromosomes. This happened about the same time as humans evolving from chimps and bonobos

[@petermsiegel573]

We didn’t evolve from chimps, nor did they evolve from us. They’re our closest relatives, not our ancestors.

[@nowhereman8374]

@@petermsiegel573 Sorry for me not being clear in my language

[@mogret7451]

His voice is kind of simular to Steven Pinker.

[@danielm5161]

This is probably interesting but this guy is spit firing through everything so fast I am not tracking what he is saying well.

[@Martinit0]

It's much easier to follow if you have graphical representation of what he says - see for example here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2qTYWhorLasra8