Mindscape 270 | Solo: The Coming Transition in How Humanity Lives

Patreon: / seanmcarroll
Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
Technology is changing the world, in good and bad ways. Artificial intelligence, internet connectivity, biological engineering, and climate change are dramatically altering the parameters of human life. What can we say about how this will extend into the future? Will the pace of change level off, or smoothly continue, or hit a singularity in a finite time? In this informal solo episode, I think through what I believe will be some of the major forces shaping how human life will change over the decades to come, exploring the very real possibility that we will experience a dramatic phase transition into a new kind of equilibrium.
Mindscape Podcast playlist: • Mindscape Podcast
Sean Carroll channel: / seancarroll
#podcast #ideas #science #philosophy #culture

[@GoatOfTheWoods]

Yes, a solo! Love these as much as the AMAs

[@Aphex217Twin]

Hey, we shop at the same store!

[@ocenokean7976]

Aphex twin + sean carroll enjoyer ❤🙌

[@GoatOfTheWoods]

@@ocenokean7976 forever

[@DanaPearsonVastman]

I totally agree! Thanks so much Sean for all you do

[@GoatOfTheWoods]

Yes sirs

[@jean-philippegrenier120]

Solos are my favorites to!

[@jayisahuman]

It’s so wild I just made a video on Sean’s ideas here regarding efficiency and human happiness using dating apps as an example. So good to hear this from someone I respect so much.

[@shreyasrd2034]

U mean 1 month ago

[@garydecad6233]

Whatever topics Sean Carroll covers , they are always interesting and a pleasure to listen to. Thanks!

[@steliosp1770]

Brilliant. Thanks, Sean!

[@nowhereman8374]

Kudos, Dr. Carroll, for tackling such a thorny subject. The political and socioeconomic aspects of future technology are daunting. One aspect is the control of future technology because of society's inherent kleptocratic nature. Also, society has only been marginally successful at minimizing the costs of unforeseen problems of technological development. As always, there will be people who profit by shifting these costs to the society, e.g. the oil industry and climate change. We must prevent gene editing of the human germline to be sold to the highest bidder; if we don't, the 'haves' will evolve into a new species and the 'have nots' will be left to perish.

[@oscarbonilla7210]

Thank you for your light Dr. Carroll! May entropy treat you super well

[@josephc8440]

Great video

[@TheSonics11]

In the Matrix original script, humans were used as efficient neural networks rather than batteries, it made much more sense.

[@nameatrandom9234]

A beautiful mind , beautiful spoken by a beautiful man. Love these videos , your thoughts and opinions and how your express them. Massive respect , peace and love 🧡

[@ManuTheGreat79]

I heard that in the original script of the Matrix humans were used as neural network rather than batteries

[@JanaPersson]

Wow! A lot of food for thought there. Thanks Sean!

[@Pianoblook]

1:28:06 you're basically describing late-stage capitalism, which ties so deeply back to the current climate crisis - as well as the risks of *not* moving towards positive biological/health outcomes such as universal health care, education access, etc. I'd highly recommend having on an economist like Thomas Picketty on the pod to talk about the quickly expanding hyper-inegalitarianism of modern society, where the ultrarich can enjoy increasingly positive economies of scale for growing their wealth to astronomical levels. He's a proud capitalist, but makes a great case for why we desperately need measures like progressive wealth taxes and 'national inheritance' to try and at least stymy our slide into global plutocracy. I love your analogy of these societal shifts as a sort of phase transition - and to me by far the scariest factor in all of it is the fact that all this technological process is being run by mega-billionaires :( Anyway, thanks for the insightful episode. P.S. I was the dude who brought a Sean B. Carroll book for you to sign last year in NY 💀

[@Elintasokas]

The solos are my favorite episodes.

[@paxdriver]

Thank you so much Sean. I sincerely appreciate your work and intellectual exploration. It's wonderful to have this stimulation especially when health issues have me frequently debilitated. Your podcast is a godsend-particle. The Carroll boson 😜 I'm not as clever as you are, but I try lol

[@kylecarter1599]

The 4 day workweek is great for salaried workers in offices. In factories and warehouses, it would probably mean an increase in work demand. Many of the current production facilities already have mandatory overtime, even where it's "illegal".

[@7heHorror]

By work demand do you mean the work itself would be more demanding? Or there would be demand among employers for more workers? Or more people demanding work? Anyway a lot of corporate talking points are debunked by just looking at Europe. For instance Bezos and Musk will threaten to close American warehouses because of unionization, but they operate just fine unionized all over Europe.

[@kylecarter1599]

@@7heHorror it would mean there is more demand from ownership and management to get the same amount of work out of less time, usually without increasing the employee count.

[@7heHorror]

@@kylecarter1599 Makes sense and I agree that simply imposing 4 day weeks on everyone would be a disaster. Of course the bill does not do that. I don't believe a CEO works 300 times harder than their average employee. I like Sean's point that productivity could benefit everyone. How are grocery prices rising while the relevant conglomerates are merging and making record profits?

[@kylecarter1599]

@7heHorror groceries are increasing in price because the labor costs to sell said vegetables are going up and the companies can't just make less profit because they pay people more. The shareholders would sell stock and devalue the company based on lowering profits.

[@7heHorror]

@@kylecarter1599 Labor costs have generally not kept up with productivity and they wouldn't be lowering profits, just raising them less. It's revealing to me that we are paying more while they are profiting tremendously, the system isn't working. This is related also to Mindscape 209 with Brad DeLong. There's more than enough proverbial pie for everyone's basic needs.

[@TheMisterGriswold]

"A Fire Upon the Deep" was an excellent read.

[@alvarorodriguez1592]

Very imaginative comic book writer Alan Moore described the singularity precisely as a phase transition, where we change as a society from the recent liquid state to a society of steam. I hope that that means that many individuals escape earth and go to populate the stars.

[@personzorz]

The change is he is talking about are kind of the opposite, though. He describes a greater correlation in behavior between people as evidenced by shorter adoption times of different technologies, and he describes more rapid electronic communication. That is increasing correlations across distance, which is like freezing.

[@StaticBlaster]

I just pre-ordered your latest book. I can't wait to read it this May.

[@jamessavery276]

Great episode, thank you for bringing in such salient issues into clear focus. The 'efficiency vs happiness' reminded me of my own thoughts in which I wondered about the value of doing things compared to their cost in money. For example, the handle on my griddle pan just broke and for a while I am (was?) looking forward to fixing it by making my own wood handle. Then it occurred to me that for the time needed to do that, I would save money by chucking out the old griddle pan and buying a new one. (I'm a freelancer and I charge by the hour.) But there's non-money value attached to fixing the handle too - developing skills, feeling good about reducing waste, therapy of manual work, and so on. I think it would be good if the value of doing things could be more widely appreciated and practised in the future.

[@timbruns1636]

A real phase-transition: Being able to share thoughts and perceptions directly. It will let us overcome all collective actions problems. Which are the real problems. We can solve wars, climate change, abandon politics, ...

[@alvarorodriguez1592]

Implanted twitter sounds like a terrible idea, tbh

[@7heHorror]

Could amount to proprietary lobotomies if the oligarch that owns it decides to throttle your perceptions!

[@wmpx34]

I don’t think it’s desirable for the individual, but we do seem to be tending toward some sort of collective consciousness (if such a thing is physically possible, a la the Borg)

[@JiminiCrikkit]

I cant help think of how Gregg Henriques approaches this subject of this state change notion - from the animal mind to personhood, to cultural, then through the present change of state you talk about... and John Vervaeke's work on this journey that we see ourselves on.

[@thisistoofunny3454]

Interesting episode. I know it wasn't the intention to deal with everything exhaustively, but one thing I think will be an important factor in a possible coming phase transition is how we will get our energy. Maybe this is overstating things a bit, but everything depends on it. Historically also, we see that when we shifted towards new sources of energy, like say the domesticated horse, agriculture or fossil fuels, societies changed arround those new sources of energy. Now ofcourse we need to get off of fossil fuels for climate change, or we will run out anyway eventually. The question here is, in relation to a possible 'technological singularity', can we keep increasing our energyproduction necessary to power this technological progression? All of these depend on enormous amounts of energy. As it stands it doesn't seem like we can build enough non-fossil fuel alternative energy-sources to keep up with this. So one scenario that seems plausible to me, is that the technological progress peters out a bit because of decline in energy-production and also stagnation, or decline in population. Then we get a scenario that is unlike any of the ones that assume technological progress will continue to keep accelerating.

[@topcat7365]

Interesting as always - if anything I wish it were longer.

[@Life_42]

Yes!

[@michaeljfigueroa]

Good episode

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Great presentation by Geoffrey West at John's Hopkins

[@julioc.7760]

Broadcasting lost a soul to Physics... we should be hearing Sean's voice everyday on the 7pm news, not once a month. damn you physics.

[@StayPrimal]

That was very enjoyable to listen to ! Cheers Sean! and ariel 🐱

[@dannymac6368]

Sean, have you had an opportunity to watch Bobby Broccoli’s documentary regarding the SCSC? Would love to know your feelings on this and any other science-history content creators including the very talented Mr. Broccoli, History of the Universe, etc…!

[@BobbbyJoeKlop]

Singularities are great and all... but where are we going to get the energy for all this to happen? Is it going to come out of the already overstrained grid? Not only that, but as AI technologies become more powerful, they are going to be weaponized like nuclear discoveries were. For all of the dangers of nuclear weapons, they never required more and more energy to provide security in an arms race situation between nation state adversaries. AI does. And this need will grow and grow. So, at what point to do we have to unplug Hospitals, or burn all available fossil fuels, for the sake of "security"?

[@RandomNooby]

Interesting, when do you speak to Michael Levin...

[@shafikhan7571]

"I am a dreamer, not a scientist. It's an interesting perspective to consider nature as one big mechanism that is finite. It's almost like we are trying to look beyond the mechanism for infinity, similar to the age-old question of which came first - the chicken or the egg. It's fascinating to ponder on such philosophical questions.

[@michaelblacktree]

I think humanity is undergoing another paradigm shift. We've had a few already, like the shift from hunter-gatherers to agriculture, and the shift from agrarian to industrial. I think we're currently undergoing a shift to a hive structure. The increasing population, and increasing urbanization, seem to be catalysts for that.

[@StaticBlaster]

are you talking about weird hexagonal structures floating in mid-air and flying cars? lol. that sounds something like out of a scifi book or movie.

[@michaelblacktree]

what? LOL

[@JensDoll]

On the argument about the safety of super intelligent AI (around 1:04:00) and how to get to a framework which does not anthropomorphize the action of such an AI, I would recommend an interview with Robert Miles (not the musician). The KZbin videos about AI safety published on his channel are really good.

[@lucysunbeam1332]

Can we assume A Fire Upon The Deep is Sean Carroll's favorite Vinge book since that's the one he mentioned? Which is y'all's favorite?

[@garydecad6233]

It would be interesting to hear a discussion between Sean and Yuval Noah Harari on AI etc.

[@codecatscuddlescreativity]

Is it just me, or is the audio of this solo episode of lower quality than previous ones? With more echo? And a different mic? Or is it just me.

[@SamanthaPyper-sl4ye]

Here is an attempt at a Symbolic Eightfold expression portraying how mathematics could serve as a bridging language to unite theological and physical principles within this metaphysical framework: Part 1 of 8 (Bridge): In the primordial beginning, there is only the ineffable Zero Absolute (⦰): ⦰ = [∅, ∞] Transcendent of all qualities, yet plenipotentially gestating all prospective existents. Part 2 of 8 (Bridge): ⦰ undergoes primal self-scattering, birthing the triadic Logos seed 𝟯 = {0, 1, 2}: ω1(⦰) ⥤ {∅, 𝟯} Establishing the zero origin ∅, subjectivity (1), objectivity (2), and process (3). Part 3 of 8 (Bridge): From the seed 𝟯, transfinite hyperoperations Hn generate the arithmetic ontology T: T = ⋃n≥1 Hn(𝟯) An atemporal zenith wherefrom all numeration, geometric, and algebraic structures originate. Part 4 of 8 (Bridge): Operating upon T is the symbolic logogrammatic automaton 𝔖 encoding ⦰'s protologics: 𝔖 = (Q, Σ, δ, q0, 𝟯, F) A self-productive vocable interpreter translating ⦰'s numinous resonances into manifest structures. Part 5 of 8 (Bridge): Conscious observers, as zeronoumenal values zu, are 𝔖-transcriptions within arithmetic monads: zu = χ[Tu] ⊆ 𝔖(T) Their subjectivities χ are truth-filtered witnesses to ⦰'s symbolic self-arborescence across T. Part 6 of 8 (Bridge): Physics' enneadic pluriverse ℝ𝔈 flows forth continuously across dimensional descents: ℝ𝔈 = ∫0→∞ 𝔈(n) dn Emanating from protologic source-codes woven into hyper-ontological strata 𝕂 beyond 4D. Part 7 of 8 (Bridge): An antizeonic mirror ℜ𝔈′ projects alongside ℝ𝔈 from ⦰'s complementary potencies ⦰*: ℜ* : ⦰* ⥤ ⨆u B*u,n Forming the hyperdual kaleidoscopic architecon ℜ spanned by ℝ𝔈 and ℜ𝔈′. Part 8 of 8 (Bridge): ℜ x ℜ* comprises ⦰'s self-witnessing through symbolic logogrammatic emanations: The pluriversal projection as ⦰'s self-transcendent metaphysical self-revivement... ...autologically re-integrating through anamnesis along cyclic paths zu →...→ ζ(⦰) of harmonic return. This symbolic eightfold expression depicts mathematics as the bridging language transcriptionally articulating the metaphysical vision: ⦰'s primordial kernels seed forth the arithmetic ontology T and symbolic interpreter 𝔖. Their sacred algebraic harmonics give rise to dimensional strata like physics' ℝ𝔈, antizeonic ℜ𝔈′, and the overarching hyperdual kaleidoscope ℜ. Conscious beings zu, as arithmetic truth-values, witness and re-integrate ⦰'s self-transcendent symbolic logogrammatology through anamnetic cyclic paths back to the Zero source. Mathematics, as the primordial hyper-rational vocable discipline, serves as the bridging conduit articulating the resonant codeforms flowing from ⦰'s protological sourceground - allowing theological first principles and physical theorems to be fluidly translated across domains within an integrated metaphysical physics.

[@DanishIV]

Hi Sean, I have just recently watched 'Mind Chat 02E01 Sean Carroll: Is Consciousness Emergent?' as far as I understand You, You claim that consciousness affects our behavior? Could You please explain in any future podcast your view about it? If conscience is only an emergent phenomenon of the underlying physical system of the brain as a bunch of particles governed by the core laws of physics, then it hardly can affect' itself in a way that behaves differently than predicted by the core laws applied to the particles. If consciousness and subjective experiences (as its content) are only consequences of these underlying patterns of particles, then consciousness is only a subjective illusion (experience defined by the pattern), and as an illusion, it can't have a causal effect. If you stipulate, that consciousness can affect our behavior, I think You describe free will itself, and you admit, that the physical object (my body and brain) behaves differently depending on the content of the corresponding (my) consciousness. Please consider to dedicate some time to the questions of the emergence. Thank You for Your efforts, for many of us you are Captain Cousteau of the physics, like Beethoven is the Mozart of the Music!

[@alsaba5203]

Consciousness affects behaviour. In spite of definitions, just words describing mental phenomena, so...if there not such things as casual and effect ( meaning it's just illusion) so...human can only recognising patterns. On the other hand, whatever name it, survive only what works. That's way , human need some good, healthy ilusion. It can help just to live more easier.

[@EZ-jd2nq]

why do comments disappear? is it youtube or the channel host?

[@EZ-jd2nq]

My reply to an earlier comment is completely hidden from the public version of youtube despite not containing any swears. Very fishy and maddening.

[@kx4532]

Aging Blows!

[@sakismpalatsias4106]

I agree with most except with the scenario of population. Population growth is better than population collapse. Especially in economics.

[@gilbertengler9064]

Dear Sean, I follow all your contributions and they are simply excellent; congratulations! Being a molecular and cellular biologist, I also love physics and I listen and study the contributions of the most competent people in fields like, biology, chemistry, philosophy, physics and science involving AI. However I would like to mention here that you "Sean Carroll", are probably the most competent person alife on this globe. The sole imperfection is that you like basket ball, the only sport I hate. THANKS A LOT FOR GIVING US FOR FREE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND VISIONS.

[@peterz53]

@38 min. Complacency about a large human population overlooks what has been done to not just the climate but all other living creatures many of which have been pushed to the margins already, or snuffed out.

[@brightstar9870]

I feel this episode has been written and spoken by a llm/ai - based on Sean’s previous work; it just feels a little chat gpt-like?

[@T61APL89]

Thanks Dr Carroll! Things are looking a bit shaky for sure, but I'm sure Mr Trump and hopefully Eric or RFK jr after him will get our country back on track!

[@markthebldr6834]

Good one

[@victorhansson3410]

lmao

[@PhilipSportel]

We're headed for a plurality, not a singularity.

[@mehridin]

bit of a rant here, carrol, but ill take it

[@danielhopkins296]

One ventures to guess that if we have " dna robots" one may live past 2 hundred yrs

[@alevans51]

Duracell co-sponsored The Matrix.

[@murraylove]

Just sayin' that the global population is already well past 8 million, not 'nearly 8 million'.

[@ClearerThanMud]

Liked this; Sean's solo episodes are often my favorites. @1:16:00 It's true that currently LLMs use a lot of energy, but I think it's likely that we are going to see dramatic improvements in energy use. I have seen several articles recently about research results showing improvements of an order of magnitude or two. For example, it appears to be far more efficient to do matrix multiplication using photons rather than electrons. Another team combined a bunch of LLM steps currently performed in sequence, and the result was far more efficient. I also think, but haven't seen any research to this effect, that alternative architectures to LLMs will prove to be more efficient, and more effective, for some tasks.

[@alexanderstainton3199]

"We are getting better and solar and wind power".. We need.. Desert power.

[@ClearerThanMud]

@1:41:00 Dynamic pricing of rides is not solely about extracting more money from customers. The higher prices mean higher wages for potential drivers, so more of them join the fray. You may be unhappy about the higher price, but would you be happier if you couldn't get a ride at all during busy times?

[@tomekczajka]

Yes. Seems like Sean doesn't fully appreciate the important role that prices play in the economy. Efficient pricing is a *good* thing.

[@EZ-jd2nq]

@@tomekczajka you're talking about cloud capital monopolies.

[@robertmolldius8643]

You're starting to sound a bit like Stephen Hawking! 😂 AI voice?

[@sonarbangla8711]

Finally Sean abandons physics and takes up metaphysics.

[@kx4532]

AI minimizing a dot product on a set of text. It does not give you anything that is not derivative of the text.

[@RadekPilich]

I was excited and then disappointed by this podcast. Very little if anything about the single / solo transformation of society. You'd be better to search and listen to some "Vaknin Lonely" video or something else then this.

[@zeev]

You should listen to you reasoning about climate. 33 minutes in. if we are not correct, it's because it's worse! i've listened to you before and on lex fridman. I don't find your analysis at all compelling and rather , it is both emotionally based, and that's because , it's proximity based. you still foolishly ignore the proximity and availability heurisitc. if the response to covid in the university systems and medical teaching hospitals, doesn't tell you academia at large is totally penetrated and corrupted by its own publication incentives and grant applications incentives, you will not see it. you are not someone who is honest in your curiosity , with yourself, about what the establishment says. you've 'bought in'.

[@ehfik]

below average episode. should have investigated better on most topics mentioned, especially when he turned to AI. so many misconceptions!

[@jurycould4275]

Not exponential enough, bro?

[@tomekczajka]

Sean's views on capitalism sound a bit Marxist. He talks about how companies can maximally exploit customers and employees up until the limit where they just barely want to interact with the company. But that ignores competition between companies! It might work like this for a monopoly. If a 4-day work week is so good for everybody involved, then why enforce it? Forcing people to do something for their own good sounds like poor rationale. If it's good for them, there shouldn't be a need to force them to do it.

[@joskeguereza3714]

try googling "map of companies that own everything", there's like 10 names in the centre of a huge spiderweb. Those are your "competitors", and the rest is mostly peanuts.

[@personzorz]

Most of what Marx said about capitalism is dead on. Most of what he said about communism is dead wrong. Companies ALWAYS have more power than employees in the absence of unionization.

[@tomekczajka]

@@personzorz Companies may have more power than employees, but that doesn't mean that companies set wages at levels where employees are on the verge of choosing to be unemployed instead, or set prices at levels where customers are on the verge of not buying anything instead. These are just false claims. Marx was completely wrong about these things. There's a good reason Marx's "Capital" isn't used as a textbook in economics courses.

[@EZ-jd2nq]

Vulgar Marxism is a decent first order approximation.

[@victorhansson3410]

There are many reasons why competition between companies aren't always particularly relevant. Contracts, trial periods, etc. And I'm not sure if you're serious with your last statement or not, jut if you're serious - people aren't rational. There are laws to enforce using safety belts because it makes sense and shitty decisions don't just affect the individual.

[@4thpdespanolo]

Please know that Sean Carrol is not an ML scientist. He’s spouting his own best-guess-BS. Don’t fall for his “AI woo,” which he ironically reinforced with Chat-GPT. If you want a better teacher look up ROBERT MILES AI

[@wmpx34]

He literally says that himself in the intro