Mindscape 259 | Adam Frank on What Aliens Might Be Like

Patreon: / seanmcarroll
Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
It wasn't that long ago that topics like the nature of consciousness, or the foundations of quantum mechanics, or prospects for extraterrestrial life were considered fringey and disreputable by much of the scientific community. In all these cases, the tide of opinion is gradually changing. Life on other worlds, in particular, has seen a remarkable growth in interest -- how life could start on other worlds, how we can detect it in the solar system and on exoplanets, and even thoughts about advanced alien civilizations. I talk with astrophysicist Adam Frank about some of those thoughts. We also give the inside scoop on what professional scientists think about UFOs.
Adam Frank received a Ph.D. in physics from the University of Washington. He is currently the Helen F. and Fred H. Gowen Professor in the Department of Physics and Astronomy and Distinguished Scientist at the Laboratory for Laser Energetics at the University of Rochester. Among his awards are the National Honors Society Best Book in Science award, and the Carl Sagan Medal from the American Astronomical Society. His new book is The Little Book of Aliens.
Mindscape Podcast playlist: • Mindscape Podcast
Sean Carroll channel: / seancarroll
#podcast #ideas #science #philosophy #culture

[@Iamthepossum]

Thank you, Sean, for your tireless efforts to advance the education of the common man. I am so disheartened by the negative comments and sarcastic snipes on your channel, and wanted to take a moment to express my gratitude for your selflessness, extraordinary humility and devotion to the intellectual development and well-being of millions of people you will never know - now and in the future - whose lives are immeasurably improved by the existence of people like you. You are a standard bearer for all of us, and inspire so much hope in the collective group of us assembling around you and your work.

[@davegrundgeiger9063]

Carroll: "With enough years of practice, I could figure it out." Right on.

[@Amethyst_Friend]

With a billion. Enough for anyone!

[@nameatrandom9234]

Love this channel , love this episode and I love Sean. Keep up the good work 👍✌️

[@RicardoMarlowFlamenco]

I was a bit surprised you guys did not discuss the grabby aliens conjecture. A brief mention of filters and some of Seans questions are addressed by that statistical model. For example at 36:36 or so, the concept of expansive aliens (grabby) implies we would actually see these engineering constructs in the sky. At least the size of the full moon, etc. Obvious from our point of view now….only if we are behind the times a bit and the Aliens expand slower than light speed. The grabby thing shows that based on simple time data (evolution of universe and stars) we are here 10 to power 18 too early to be alone. Otherwise right on time for grabby statistics. If they expand at light speed we can’t see them until 1 billion years from now as we expand ourselves (or remain quiet). This countdown of time moves down the SLOWER they expand, such that we SHOULD see them now if they are pretty slow. At 37:28 he says engineering of structuring stars and galaxies “moving them around”, no one has taken these survey. Sean rightly pushed back at 38:36… we HAVE this data. Dark matter is the engineering of galactic structure, not understood however not “natural” either, so far it seems. Sean talks about anomalies in the data at 39:33….The anomalies have been collected already….galaxies that obey Einstein with zero dark matter have not been “engineered” (there are a bunch observed already), and structures that have few visible stars (Dark matter galaxies), have been “over engineered” (again a bunch of these weird things too). This interpretation falls within the statistical model that, they move slow and yes are HERE all around us already.. we just don’t understand the observations yet, only the gravitational signals or “movement” of structure. Further more, the grabby model states that as the universe expands we have limited time to stay connected and “grabby” on large scales…ie, the structures will be isolated. Taken with the vacuum decay conjecture (speed of light bubble of universe destruction will not be visible until it arrives, too late), it is further possible that this very real, scary, possibility, could be delt with by engineering an accelerated expansion…exactly as the one we have observed kicking in at a likely opportune moment in cosmic history where the engineers realized the potential problem. Again how is this achieved? Correlation to supmassive black holes increasing in mass was observed, could be a clue, as well as the Hubble tension likely contains a clue. For sure, the bottom line is this process is happening already, and the future will “protect” the galactic structure isolated “projects” from any vacuum decay.

[@leeFbeatz]

Gonna catch it on Spotify ❤

[@KirkpatrickSounds]

Fantastic episode

[@missh1774]

1:06:05 hahaha. Good one Sean. It's the most accurate line in this entire interview.

[@jamesragsdale8202]

Awesome show.

[@danielpaulson8838]

Clear thinking Sean. Thanks you

[@tonybowen455]

A fun one. Thanks again!

[@surkewrasoul4711]

It would be interesting to see Sean meeting an alien, Imagine the difficult conversation between an alien and a super smart human. 🤔🤓

[@markstipulkoski1389]

The whole premise of Dyson spheres is questionable: assuming that an advanced civilization would have the need or desire to harvest so much energy. Maybe in the far, far future when the universe is experiencing heat death.

[@alvarorodriguez1592]

I fully agree. If you can have fusion confortably at home, why bother disassembling whole planets. Also I have noone considering its maintenance, which must be mental

[@ralphclark]

You’re assuming the energy requirements of such a civilization would be just like ours. Why would you make such a ridiculous assumption? They’re powering mega-engineering industries. Zettawatt space laser arrays. Antimatter factories. Relativistic starships. A million space habitats. Black hole confinement shields. Wormhole generators. Who knows what else.

[@noein88]

There is the non exclusivity principle, maybe not all advanced civilization will build Dyson sphere, but if even 1% did they would leave those signature. With all that energy they would have high power laser to push colony ship all over their galaxy leaving Dyson on every star in less than a million year.

[@alanbarker2279]

Just because Dyson was able to conceive of the idea in no way makes a likely outcome for an advanced civilisation's energy needs. Conversely the very fact that he was able to come up with the idea makes it less likely to be true, as no one can truly envisage the discoveries that will be made in the next 1000 years, let alone 1,000,000. Just look at the way the year 2000 was portrayed by writers and even scientists in the 1930's. They did not get a lot right...

[@blarbysliggelberry3896]

this was fun. this was well done. perhaps he could be the first repeat repeat guest.

[@atp_3249]

I found it interesting that the guests' releuctance to consider extremely long-lived creatures/beings/machines. If we are, in fact, limited to light speed in traveling the cosmos, that would be the logcial solution. He made many good points and understand he focuses on exoplanets. But with so much talk about astrobiology, near immortal lifetimes seem much more reality than fiction. Good talk, but I wasn't expecting to disagree?! with so much that said.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i'm inclined to agree, i think terraforming isn't going to be practical, whereas we already have evolution (!) but also robotics, AI, neuralink, genetic engineering - if you've read "the seedling stars" by james blish he foresees humans being engineered for the planets they are sent to. the people going to mars ought to be prepared to stay there, returning to earth after the length of time a round trip, with a stop over, would take would be quite hard work. david sinclair is working on a "ten years younger" pill that is working for rats and even de grasse tyson is saying things like "the first person to live a thousand years is alive today".

[@dukeallen432]

Harry: “Inclined”?!? Commit Harry, commit. Or shush.

[@Young.Supernovas]

I have to disagree on the "no evidence in the fossil record" point. Thomas Holtz did a great lecture on this which I recommend, available on youtube.

[@CorwynGC]

24:00 If you want to decrease your waste heat all the way down to near the temperature of the background radiation, doesn't your sphere need to be VERY large, as you still have to dissipate the entire output of your star?

[@coorz64]

Interesting talk. I find it really hard to believe that an advanced civilization that visited Earth would not be detectable… glad you pushed back on that point.

[@wilpertz]

Don’t forget to search in the really low frequency bands for alien bass players!

[@dustinarand]

Re: Sean's objection that advanced civilizations would not give off the kind of waste/heat signature that Adam asserts they would, I think Adam is right. At a certain point, it costs more to try and capture all that heat and redirect it to do work than the energy you would get out of it.

[@twonumber22]

I just want to hear their music.

[@DaMonster]

That would be out of this world 😎

[@danielgrizzlus3950]

99% chance you wouldn't be able to hear it, and 99% chance you wouldn't be able to see any of the colours/light frequencies they see either. Sorry to say

[@twonumber22]

@@danielgrizzlus3950 Doubtful, especially if they use instruments.

[@dukeallen432]

Dig

[@KirkpatrickSounds]

It's already here - check out Allan Holdsworth (clearly an alien) haha.

[@smith5796]

They might be Monsters?

[@davidwright8432]

For various statistical reasons too tedious to go into (doing statistics on a sample of exactly one), almost everything that's out there, ''of interest' in this context, is almost certainly unimagined so far by us, or flat out unimaginable. We can't even agree on how 'intelligent' cetaceans are; or octopodes. ('Eight feet'). Or for that matter an ant colony seen as a unified critter. Huge fun trying to wrestle with the difficulties, tho! 'Know yourself' might be a good place to start. We don't really know what we are.

[@LEDewey_MD]

A very fun and engaging discusssion! If I may be so bold, regardijng abiogenesis, I highly recommend the book, "The Vital Question", by Dr. Nick Lane, (a director at the Centre For Life's Origins and Evolution, at University College London). The book describes a compelling possible pathway from geochemistry to biochemistry in a highly readable and engaging manner, with references to the research done in the area. Dr. Lane proposes that understanding how life on Earth evolved could guide us in our search for life on other planets.

[@RandomNooby]

A happy solution for the Fermi hypothesis. (I say hypothesis, because paradox is a misnomer.) Perhaps we observe no exo-life in the universe; primarily because either it is bacterial analogues for the most part, or the advanced life that attains technology is no longer here, for lack of a better term. Technological advancement is exponential, and while this is an N=1 sample, it is virtually impossible to conceive of it not being universally so, and thusly civilisations go from technology, like splitting the atom, and AGI straight to subliming, or transcendence so quickly, due to being so far along the exponential curve, they leave virtually no visible mark on the universe. Never needing Dyson spheres, or ram-scoops, etc..

[@mehridin]

didnt "like" the guy to begin with, but ended up being impressed and entertained.

[@RodrigoOshiro]

I think when two alien civilizations meet, either they are in the same solar system or they are inorganic life forms.

[@CorwynGC]

Why? Carbon and hydrogen are the simplest ingredients that anyone has thought of. Anything else is more complicated, and thus rarer.

[@ciarandevine8490]

Sean some of us know the aliens much better than our neighbours. A few pointers: They share our DNA They seeded our planet. They look very much like us. They are one million earth years ahead of us. They’re not into conquest as that’s a thinking process of a less developed 3 & 4 Dimensional species. If you’d like to focus on the 7 Sisters Constellation (which is actually 9 Sisters as there’s 2 stars hidden from view) Maybe get the JWT should be pointed at this location. 🌟

[@jeremiahmilazzo1446]

What we are able to see is far in the past not what is actually happening right now

[@danielgrizzlus3950]

When it comes to our galaxy, it's not far enough into the past to matter or be a valid argument, the galaxy is only 100k light years in diameter. Only 10 times more than we've been around for.

[@mcwulf25]

I often wonder whether aliens might be the size of the moon or the size of an ant. And whether they might be liquid or gaseous. In which case how would we know they were life forms? Maybe they are made of neutrinos?

[@chili4852]

The fact that asteroid 16 Psyche exists, with its ginormous metals motherlode untouched (?) would mean that there is nobody around this galaxy who finds it useful, except us.

[@labibbidabibbadum]

Hmm, I’d have said around 23:00 that that’s really not a great argument against the infrared visibility of Dyson spheres. You’re suggesting that even though I have access to essentially limitless, low entropy entropy with the capacity to do anything I want, I’m going to piss about essentially with some Stirling engines trying to capture 2/5 of sod all of the waste hear from my Dyson sphere? I mean, maybe if you’re suggesting I’m going to deliberately try to hide my Dyson sphere from prying eyes, ok… just maybe. But I’m still going to be advertising (a la Tabby’s Star) my presence just by dimming the output.

[@labibbidabibbadum]

* low entropy ENERGY

[@scrubjay93]

I believe there is life on other planets but if it is as scary and weird as the deep-sea creatures we see on ROV videos, maybe we don't want them to "visit". If they treat other species anything like humans treat other intelligent species on this planet (rats, dolphins, elephants), we should hope they never visit. I would love to live long enough to see us discover an exoplanet full of biodiversity untouched by civilization and technological "progress". I don't think we should be exporting "intelligent" primates to any exoplanets. Let life on other planets evolve in peace. Starfleet's Prime Directive should be a guide.

[@markdavich5829]

What I never like about these discussions is that we assume that "because we can't do it, they can't either". The UFO topic may be silly to some but to those of us with the experience and frame of reference to look something spectacular and know immediately and without a doubt, what it isn't or what it can't be, it's a little less silly. Aside from that, I enjoy a little science-based speculation on what that something might be and of course, how.

[@origins7298]

The thing with UFOs is it just seems much more like humans misinterpreting things and letting our imagination running wild then actual plausible scenarios Why wouldn't civilizations just send out artificial probes like we do. Why wouldn't they just send out machines that can replicate themselves and do useful work Further they make the point that all the technology that people report is kind of like what we have but a little bit better which is very dubious It's unlikely that a civilization will be kind of like where we are considering we only have 100 years of airplane flight And if they were millions of years ahead of us it just makes what we are observing very suspect. I mean all the stuff I have seen looks a lot more like drones and camera anomalies and just people misinterpreting stuff, flares, meteorologic stuff I mean people get literally high on imagining all these science fiction like scenarios so it's a lot more believable that it's just human gullibility and wishful thinking

[@Hugh_I]

The main objection here wasn't that we don't know how to build space craft like that, but that you have to construct a very unlikely explanation around why we see them. If they aren't hiding, why be that sneaky at all? If they are trying to hide, why would they with their advanced tech be so clumsy to constantly make themselves seen by accident?

[@markdavich5829]

@@Hugh_I Hmmnm - Did it look like the phenomena in the Navy film was hiding? Or clumsy? Or "sneaky"??... Yeah, it didn't look that way to me either. Look, I didn't mean to imply that I think it's aliens - Only that based on the caliber of the evidence and the people involved, (and there's no shortage of this kind of evidence) the subject deserves a bit more consideration than that of an inexperienced, educated, armchair quarterback. I'm admittedly biased - I've had my own spectacular sighting and just like the pilots and other personnel, I can't tell you what it was but I can absolutely give you a detailed explanation of what it wasn't. Based on that, if I were the one being interviewed, I'd be a little more careful with my words/opinions.

[@Hugh_I]

@@markdavich5829 apologies, I misread you then. I took it as you arguing aliens is the best explanation if we don't exactly have another one. Because yes I agree, there is some evidence of phenomena out there like that Navy film that are not easy to explain. My and the guests point here just was that assuming therefore it must be aliens would be jumping to conclusions that bring with it a lot of other issues, like why they'd allow themselves to be seen like that, but otherwise would chose to avoid detection.

[@markdavich5829]

@@Hugh_I Agreed - I'm just not convinced, (assuming for a moment that it's extraterrestrial in nature) that avoiding detection is of any concern.

[@Hugh_I]

The whole Dyson's sphere idea always seems like the least promising pursuit to me. This whole idea feels like a hopeless projection of our own current tech into the future, like: how would we best harness a star with our current knowledge, extended into the (near) future with better engineering capabilities. I mean, we went from giant mega structures to swarms of smaller orbiting solar panels in like 50 years already. How can we possibly conceive how an advances civ with thousands of years under their tentacles would go about it? Finding any of the other tech signatures would not exactly surprise me, but this one really would.

[@coreyander286]

59:30: It's funny he asks how you get the properties of Darwinian evolution to work for these intelligent interstellar clouds. In the book, the characters ask the Black Cloud that, and it responds that its kind had no beginning. Someone says, "That's one in the eye for the exploding-universe boys". Because Hoyle didn't believe in the Big Bang. He thought the universe has existed for an eternity, so he had the revelations from the Black Cloud be Ls for his real-life opponents.

[@dukeallen432]

Congress needs Sean to weed out wasteful scientific ventures. Not really want him here but…….,

[@ModusOperandi2009]

I owned a 1980s Dodge Omni and am deeply offended by Dr. Frank's comment.

[@erock7138]

1:01:28 Science is about knowledge, evidence, annnnnnnnd profit margin. At least when it comes a lot of things these days… imagine how much more advanced we’d be as a civilization if the US Defense budget was spent on science/health/clean-energy instead of buying an arsenal that could wipe out the earth 10x over.

[@spacefarer1]

If aliens visited us millions of year ago. We might see any geostationary satellites which would be still up there after millions of years.

[@Jgill99911]

That’s assuming that they had geostationary satellites and then why would they leave em here. why would satellites still be here after that long time ?

[@sstrick500]

Orbital decay ... they'd crash and burn fairly quickly (500 years or less).

[@rotarolla1]

When I was about 7. Me and a girl one year older had a strong feeling to leave the school play grounds on a hot summer day. We saw a craft, it came down, we were paralyzed but told telepathically we would be OK. We floated at 45 degrees tilted backwards into the craft. I could only move my eyes, I was terrified, I don't remember what happened but we were missing for about 20 minutes.

[@davidcampos1463]

I worked hard to stay to the end of this one.

[@jamesragsdale8202]

Too much into for you?

[@phenghs2007]

Why?

[@ScienceAfterDark]

Well, fair enough: this may not be the channel for you. Have you perhaps considered watching Hee Haw reruns instead?

[@williamhcarlton]

"Science shows you how to change your mind honorably." Earlier in the podcast, when Sean points out that a super-advanced technological civilization that has solved superintelligence should have ALSO solved mortality, and ought to have astronomical lifespans: "Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... I don't like to think ab that".

[@odinata]

Aliens be like: "What kind of ready-to-wear custom tailoring are available for me-- options that will make people think, "That alien is smart! That alien is successful! That alien is an academic!"

[@aaronmcelrea8172]

What would be more amazing, that god exists or that we are totally alone in the universe?

[@twonumber22]

God for sure. That's absolutely bonkers.

[@aaronmcelrea8172]

@@twonumber22 maybe I should have said what’s more frightening, the existence of god or that we are totally alone in the universe just drifting through empty space, no one watching, no one caring, no way off this rock.

[@twonumber22]

@@aaronmcelrea8172 I'd still say god.

[@origins7298]

​​@@aaronmcelrea8172God and gods are so obviously human-made fantasy. We know for a fact that we are in a universe where no one cares about us.... I doubt there are other civilizations in our galaxy. Maybe in the other galaxies. But it just seems like there's so little chance of it happening in so many obstacles. We know for sure that it's very rare in our galaxy to have the stability we have had here on earth for billions of years Basically like 95% of our Galaxy would never allow life to develop like it has on earth. You just have way too many cataclysmic events... Also it just seems like it was such a fluke for one species to rise to technology.

[@raginald7mars408]

.. as a German Bio Chemist Ph D - We search the Universe for Clues of Life Many Civilizations before us Did the same and do the same With advanced Artificial Intelligence and Robotics The Galaxies are screened for signs of Life Earth is easy to detect from afar We are observed for Millions of years And our self Titanick behaviour Will accelerate the Cosmic Deletion programme We help

[@johnnycharisma162]

Surprised Sean stooped to this level of discussion.

[@Misdajay73]

😂

[@endrawes0]

Hyperbole

[@kylecarter1599]

Has anyone theorized that the "dark matter" could be life on planets that we aren't able to detect yet?

[@odinata]

Has anybody told you "put down the bong"?

[@kylecarter1599]

@@odinata I don't have a bong

[@lolafinch]

Such a great topic. But why is this guest going about it like a car sales man? It's off-putting. Maybe the trend to "science out reach" is to blame.

[@jamesragsdale8202]

He is an engaged lecturer. Enjoy.

[@KirkpatrickSounds]

Personally thought he was incredibly well-spoken.

[@yaserthe1]

I realley wanted to enjoy this, but in the end, i just felt Sean was constantly frustrated by his guest, who just isnt as rigorous as Sean. Generally when Sean gives push back its because he has a different opinion, but still respects the opinion of his guest. Here the pushback seemed to come from a different place, not so much a difference of opinion, rather it was like Sean did not respect the intelligence of his guest, like his guest was making shit up or something. Anyway it was all very awkward, so could not finish it