Mindscape 284 | Doris Tsao on How the Brain Turns Vision Into the World

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@davegrundgeiger9063 3 ай бұрын

This was wonderful! I especially like how they were both geeking out at the end and so obviously happy to have access to each other's expertise to come at the same topic from different directions. What a great model of intellectual discourse!

@dangeroustoothpaste 3 ай бұрын

Great episode as always! The conversation flowed very well. Dr. Tsao has worked and is working on some fascinating research. Thanks Sean for doing this show, you're a very good conversationalist and I appreciate that you clearly do your homework before each episode in order to be able to competently interview the guest.

@dazecm 3 ай бұрын

It was great Doris started to quiz Sean for his views on things near the end of the podcast where she mentions Sean's paper titled 'Why is there Something Rather than Nothing' and that there's the concept of something not necessarily having an answer. When friends ask me similar questions about why the Universe or life exists instead of nothing, I tell them the correct question is HOW is there something rather than nothing. Who knows, if there is an answer to the why question, it may very well be the case that asking the HOW question first is the right order in which to get to any answers if they exist.

@reecemarkowsky3446 2 ай бұрын

this was just fantastic. especially love how we learned about the fragmented consciousness at the same time as Sean Carroll.

@AugustReversal 3 ай бұрын

This is absolutely the best episode I've heard yet. This was so beyond fascinating and went into territory I was not expecting it to expand into. From visual to consciousness. Amazing episode! Thank you Sean and Doris!

@steliosp1770 3 ай бұрын

oh this is gonna be an excellent episode. i love this topic. saving it for tomorrow at work, thanks Sean, all the best!

@rumidude 3 ай бұрын

Could have listen to another hour of this.

@3dlabs99 3 ай бұрын

A future episode with Nancy Kanwisher would be fantastic. I can recommend watching some of her lectures available on youtube. Great stuff along the same lines.

@TankorSmash 3 ай бұрын

Yeah this was super cool

@PedroTricking 3 ай бұрын

Easily one of the best episodes until now! Definitely top5 best!

@whitb62 3 ай бұрын

I love how she seemed to agree with the rejection of the hard problem of consciousness to then use it at the end to show the irreducibility of consciousness.

@lesliespeaker668 3 ай бұрын

I was once so high on LSD, my vision glitched out and froze, it looked like a video stream suddenly cutting out, it all became blocky and parts of my FOV not just stopped moving overwriting other parts, until it all stopped, my vision froze in my mind. And the coolest part about it was, as soon as my vision froze, it felt like time stopped. My sense of before and after stopped existing. Even though I was able to think consecutive thoughts, and of that contradiction I was even aware of while this happened.

@ExplodingBears 3 ай бұрын

Before reading this I was about to post a comment relating my own experience on LSD. I think that LSD's effects on visual processing allow for a very deep kind of reflection on the way that our brain constructs reality. In my experience I seemed to see the "frame rate" of reality slow down to the point where I could "see" each frame deteriorate as the information that comprised it became old and irrelevant and was replaced by the next "computed" frame which was composed of information from newer measurements. My naive thought at the time was that in effect the LSD was slowing down the "frame rate" because the information processing step culminating in each frame was taking longer. It may have instead had more to do with my perception of time, but at the time it felt like it was a result of computations at each step being "deeper", in that the web of associations in my brain that were becoming activated as a result of the visual input of each moment spread a little wider than usual. This experience left me with the distinct impression of an image that started out photorealistic then rapidly aged and revealed itself to be just a painting, the paint drying and falling off in flakes, losing its color, and eventually replaced by the next photorealistic image.

@lesliespeaker668 3 ай бұрын

@@ExplodingBears > This experience left me with the distinct impression of an image that started out photorealistic then rapidly aged and revealed itself to be just a painting, the paint drying and falling off in flakes, losing its color, and eventually replaced by the next photorealistic image. That's exactly how it looked like. I had my eyes half closed, so maybe when there wasn't much visual input coming from my eyes anyway visual processing slowed down very rapidly to a halt. It's interesting and exciting to be able to experience such a thing, to actually feel like how the brain does stuff by making it not do it quite correctly.

@alfriedrich 3 ай бұрын

This was the best Mindscape episode I've listened to. So much fun, so many ideas coming together to complement each other. Great!

@davidhyduke8493 3 ай бұрын

Wow. Best discussion of concepts of vision and it's connection with consciousness I've ever heard. Thank you.

@TheGnocid 3 ай бұрын

thank you Sean, keep up your on the path !

@hmp01 3 ай бұрын

I enjoyed this thoroughly

@chrisnewell3331 3 ай бұрын

I like that. I was kind of yearning for Jocha Bach to be part of the conversation as he goes to the trouble to define these terms, much better, consciousness, sentience, intelligence, etc.

@ThePrimaFacie 3 ай бұрын

There is a lot of really cool stuff in this. Thanks to both of you

@DirtmopAZ 3 ай бұрын

Loved this one. Really…opened my eyes to some things 😂. I also thought temporal lobe had to do with time processing or something.

@Jgill99911 3 ай бұрын

Loved it👍👍

@jean-philippegrenier120 3 ай бұрын

awesome guest. thank you!

@nda4591 3 ай бұрын

Great conversation!!!

@Amethyst_Friend 3 ай бұрын

Wish this was longer!

@aosidh 3 ай бұрын

It seems like the most common example of qualia is "seeing the color red". I wonder if this is significant 🙀

@davegrundgeiger9063 3 ай бұрын

lol I've thought the same thing! It's almost always red!

@3dlabs99 3 ай бұрын

The brain definitely responds a lot to the color red. Maybe partly because blood is red. Many strong feelings and reactions are related to blood. Like a red heart and red roses etc. might be in part a reference to blood.

@miedzinshs 3 ай бұрын

It is significant because it's a reference to the original argument for the so called hard problem of consciousness in the literature.

@drbqqq1433 3 ай бұрын

This is because stop lights and stop signs across the globe are red and suddenly stopping is one of the most important things that

@neilbeni7744 3 ай бұрын

I have Left Hamonymous Hemianopia and when I bump into things that I don't perceive on my blind side,my body reacts to the object and reduces the impact like it knows the object it's about to collide with without my knowing and takes control of my body to soften or avoid the object.. I walk out of hospital after seizures and walk home whilst doing in and out of consciousness at particular points on the way home then wake up in my room.. I think it's my fight or flight taking over due to dissociation .. My right optic nerve is disconnected.. And yes i see pictures not a smooth movie.

@Sean-n7j 3 ай бұрын

Wow, what a wonderful episode. I listened to it at 3x speed obviously.

@bryandraughn9830 2 ай бұрын

While I'm fascinated by the idea that the brain creates a world for us to experience, based on models and sensory input, I'm astounded that the brain locates a "self" within that world. "No matter where you go, there you are!"--George Carlin

@SnoopGotTheScoop 3 ай бұрын

good shit sean 👍🐢

@marcelotemer 3 ай бұрын

In 28:50 she’s overlooked that the flicker may be caused by the illumination (electric current frequency 50 / 60 Hz)

@dangeroustoothpaste 3 ай бұрын

Hmmm... you mention electric current frequency (50 or 60 Hz), presumably referring to the cycle rate of an alternating current, which is usually 60 Hz on US power grids. That's the cycle rate of AC which is used for long-distance power transmission primarily. Devices such as lights have already converted that current to DC. But regardless, the frequency of the alternating current shouldn't correspond to the actual light source 'flickering' as such, right?

@d.lav.2198 3 ай бұрын

Perceptual reality is a working hypothesis that works.

@stephengibbins8661 3 ай бұрын

Bravo!

@iAnasazi 3 ай бұрын

That was great.

@dzidmail 3 ай бұрын

9:04 a little bit? Conceptually this is the same as multilayer artifical neural networks. Unsurprisingly. The differences in the learning processes is the interesting to me.

@missh1774 3 ай бұрын

Sometimes there is no reason for anything (56:00). Everytime I find myself saying it, I never conceptualizing it in the same way and it seems to have gained another layer on top that says it's true again.

@csours 3 ай бұрын

"Are people who are illiterate better at recognizing faces" - I'd love to see those IRB notes.

@citizizen 3 ай бұрын

So there are the eyes, so i figured: there is the face, and the eyes, maybe an interesting perspective to explore. Unless, there is work done in this field already. Maybe, our hands and legs and skull, etc, plus our eyes... What we see, and respond to..

@TheReferrer72 3 ай бұрын

Oh now Sean seems to agree with Hinton that their is no such thing as consciousness, We just use the tern because we don't understand the processes of the brain.

@davegrundgeiger9063 3 ай бұрын

I have a different interpretation of Carroll's position. He's said that his view is that consciousness, like tables and chairs, emerges from and is compatible with fundamental physics. He has said that tables and chairs don't appear in the standard model of physics -- that they're emergent -- but that he nevertheless considers them real. He has said explicitly that he considers consciousness real in the same way.

@TheReferrer72 3 ай бұрын

@@davegrundgeiger9063 I thought his statement that you could point to the neurons that fire for the qualia red, implied that the brain could be explained by physical processes.

@davegrundgeiger9063 3 ай бұрын

@@TheReferrer72 I think he does say that consciousness is created by physical processes, but that doesn't mean that consciousness isn't a useful way to course-grain the processes. Just like "table" is a way to course-grain the positions and momenta of the very large number of particles that make up a table. We wouldn't say that a table doesn't exist or isn't real. I think Carroll treats the notion of consciousness similarly.

@3dlabs99 3 ай бұрын

Consciousness is probably causing trouble because it is very emergent. Its built on many other layers of emergent systems and hence very abstract and hard to define. But of course its real at an abstract level and makes perfect sense at that level. And of course its just a natural result of many many neurons working together in a very large network. What else would it be?

@johnthehillboy7369 3 ай бұрын

Hello anyone, For 300ms of unconsciousness to be considered a long time we would need to know how long moments of conscious perception are. Do we? I didn’t catch that. I also wonder if in the non-linear presentation of these packaged inferential steps; do any ever get lost, or unused, or recycled? Thanks, John

@AlistairGale 3 ай бұрын

Doris’ latest research suggests that consciousness is updated every 100 ms (10 hertz), if gamers and video card manufacturers were able to sync to this brain frame rate, maybe they wouldn’t be wasting money and silicon on multi kilohertz frame rates.

@Vdryjvxzaef 3 ай бұрын

Cool

@ericdovigi7927 3 ай бұрын

Your rebuttal to Chalmers' "zombie" seems to suggest that consciousness is "bestowed" upon a subject by an object. The whole idea of "deeming" something conscious or unconscious seems to contradict what we mean when we say "consciousness" -- at least no one would be likely to want to admit that their OWN consciousness is dependent upon someone else's noticing of it. This is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to talk about consciousness. I think that consciousness is a moral substance economized by the powerful over the less powerful. I.e. the history of animal rights, treating animals better or worse according to your belief that they are capable of suffering.

@lesliespeaker668 3 ай бұрын

Then why do I feel less conscious when I'm around other people. 🤔

@thuankhuongminh4127 Ай бұрын

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@eenblanke 2 ай бұрын

may I ask about DMT?

@Hecarim420 3 ай бұрын

I am not great with faces from the begening

@zack_120 3 ай бұрын

28:44- wheel rotating backwards is a daily experience, weird. Sounds like the brain samples frames in backward order, creating that illusion and cheating the host 😂 what's the implication to witness statements in the court? Another example nothing is perfect, now including this error in spieces evolution.

@wolfRAMM 3 ай бұрын

The brain's sampling is correctl, it's just the same "rolling shutter" problem as with cameras. And if similar situations were to be happening during human evolution, the brain would have evolved a solution to that. The only similar thing to aliasing IRL that I can think of are zebra stripes, which purportedly mess with predator's perception. As for witness statements, sometimes human memory do fail, but in general the evolutionary pressure was high enough for humans to evolve quite robust temporal system.

@HkFinn83 3 ай бұрын

NOT perfect?!😮 seems more like unfathomably and mind bogglingly perfect to me!