Ming Xiaoshao Horn Bow, 114#@28.25" (Koppedrayer)

[@HistoricalWeapons]

wow thats impressive. my carbon fiber laminate at 5gpp gets 282 fps and this horn bow using medieval technology is almost there

[@BibtheChib]

What an awesome bow! First time I've seen the energy efficiency calculations on a bow in detail like this too, that's awesome!

[@cernel5799]

I've no direct experience, but I believe that bows like this one should have a length/draw-length ratio of 2. If you draw to 28.25 inches, you should get a 1.44 metres bow for optimal results (instead of an 1.12 metres one). Great video! Loved the precision and the quantity of data and the chart.

[@ericaugust1501]

going to convert those grains to grams for those who think mostly in grams: 1560 grain = 101 grams (that's actually very heavy. When Todd, from Todd's Workshop, had his authentic medieval war arrows made up for the 160lb warbow, they were between 80-90grams). 793 grain = 51 grams, 638 grain = 41 grams, 466 grain = 30 grams.

[@rossmcleod7983]

Ah yes metric. Thankyou. Imperial is barbaric.

[@ericaugust1501]

@@rossmcleod7983 haha

[@lemagicbaguette1917]

That's not an arrow. That's a bloody telephone pole.

[@iyoo1]

crazy how much energy those things can have. awesome video. thank you :)

[@magyararcher7478]

Great content Justin. That bow is powerful, even with heavy arrows. People knew a few things back then, using only natural materials, as a new technology.

[@rolldysharpshooter6593]

Im impressed with efficiency of the bow

[@permadynamicsnewzealand2698]

Insane. What a beautiful bow. Great to hear your young one in the back. Wonder what a great archer will come from that early exposure to the high skills of that dad.

[@TheAthanik]

Great video, thank you!

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Thank you for doing this video & providing all the data. I notice that this bow performs somewhat worse than the Turkish bows made & tested by Adam Karpowicz in 2004/2005. For instance, his 136lb@30in war/target bow shot 245 fps with a 5.39gpp arrow, while this bow does 217 fps at 5.6gpp & needs go down to 4.09gpp to achieve 248 fps. The higher draw length of the Turkish bow in this case only explain part of the performance difference. Some could come from how Karpowicz used a machine that completed the whole draw & release within 2 seconds, while you hold the bow near full draw for a few seconds. It's also possible Karpowicz's bows are a bit more efficient because of their construction details, & might store a little more energy too.

[@jake4194]

interesting, I've known turkish and korean bows to be the best. I wonder how closely they'd perform with equal examples of each bow.

[@alexanderflack566]

@@jake4194 Turkish and Korean bows will get the highest efficiency with very light arrows, but they don't store a great deal of energy and so their performance is good but not amazing with heavier arrows. Manchu bows store an incredible amount of energy, but are very inefficient with lighter arrows, so they're dangerous to use with arrows that are too light. However, a Manchu shooting 20 gpp will massively outperform a Turkish or Korean bow shooting 20 gpp. So, if you want to shoot slow arrows that carry as much kinetic energy as possible, you would use a Manchu bow, but if you want to shoot lighter arrows with high arrow speed, Turkish and Korean bows are a better fit.

[@skyworm8006]

@@alexanderflack566 yeah these style of bows basically come in two broad functions. archers that are meant to mass clouds of arrows very quickly in an arc from a distance to harass an enemy and archers that are meant loose damaging arrows at closer range while closing to engage with their other weapons.

[@alexanderflack566]

@@skyworm8006 Given their high cost and large size, Manchu bows (despite being short ranged) were clearly not meant to be used while closing to melee range with other weapons. Given that using the bow takes both hands and that bows and arrows take a lot of space and can't easily be used while moving, I don't think that any of them were really used for that purpose. If you want a ranged weapon to use against a target as you close with them, thrown weapons were the preferred choice for that.

[@dustinthewind3925]

Wow, so do horn composites handle light arrows better than fiberglass/wood lam? Kinda scared me even with the 600gr arrow

[@dgriswold93]

Very interesting. Joes replica Mary Rose bows match or even slightly exceed this bow in performance. The selfbows even keep up when shooting in the 5-6 gr/lb range.

[@Yojimbo61]

Don't the draw lengths on the Mary Rose Bows have a longer draw length than the length he is drawing? He's only going to about 28" and getting those speeds.

[@dgriswold93]

@@Yojimbo61 The short answer is yes and no. Most of the arrows on the MR are built ~30" from inside of nock to back of point. The only other length that is common is in fact 28". So a significant number of arrows could only be pulled about that far. In the videos I'm referring to Joe shoots both at 28" and 30".

[@teejaypei2143]

Hi Justin, got a question for you! I have a same Xiaohao Bow like this one in the video, and the legit draw length is 28”. However, i could only draw back and anchor my draw hand to align with my lip edge, it’s getting really tight after that. As I watched your previous videos, that doesn’t utilize the full potential of my draw side of back muscle. How come you can draw back further with this bow? It seems like the draw hand anchor position has no difference with you using a much larger draw length bow. It doesn’t make sense to me in this case.

[@lemagicbaguette1917]

I'm no expert, but I can tell you that, in order to get that kind of a draw, your elbow actually starts to point inwards towards your back. You can probably get away with another four to six inches of draw before the misalignment gets too bad.

[@jamieparkinson2044]

Where could I buy one of Jaap Koppedrayers bows from?

[@TheWayofArchery]

You may contact Jaap Koppedrayer at [e-mail]

[@epicyea3168]

That is a crazy. That draw weight on such a short shot. Arent you worried the limbs may snap because thicker you make limbs, the stiffer it gets

[@TheWayofArchery]

Nope.

[@epicyea3168]

Could you test composite bows with fast flight string?

[@Bobthewarbow184]

Wonderful horn bow. But why do you conduct the test with CARBON arrows? With these arrowspeeds you are sure going to get some blow- ups with wood.

[@Daylon91]

Wow 14 gpp and 150 fps? Not bad at all. Faster then a manchu I reckon or not?

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

A simple modern KAYA does 260 fps wid half of Poundage. (6.6 gpp Arrow)

[@TheWayofArchery]

This bow in this video is a full horn composite bow (no artificial material). The term "Biocomposite" is a trade name used for bows that contain some artificial epoxies.

[@robinj6997]

Martin, If you use an arrow that weight half as much then the momentum of the arrow will also be half as much. When it comes to arrow penetration; momentum is more important than kinetic energy.

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

@@robinj6997 I know is a old Story. But i compare his 6.9 gpp Arrow wich is 202 fps vs a KAYA wid 260 fps and half of poundage ;) 60 Pound and 390 grain Arrow my Friend ;)

[@robinj6997]

@@AlfaRevoluzione Your video with 60# Kaya is with a 360 grain arrow and 241 fps. That is about half the momentum of what we see here, which is exactly my point. If you achieved even greater speed with a even heavier arrow, as you describe. The momentum will be exactly on the trend line for a normal bow and this Ming horn bow will be more than 50% above that. But the speed is impressive, no doubt about that.

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

@@robinj6997 Meanwhile its 245, Matthias Lehner (you know him) has longer Arms, he draw to 260 fps with a 398 grain Arrow. And its a Black Cat 46-60. That Green Camo KTB got only 255. Its on the other Channel of Combat Archery Switzerland visible. Hes doing 287 fps wid a 75 lbs KTB and the same Arrow. Now were looking for heavy Aluminum Arrows. Bless Robin

[@quarantinedarcher4348]

Heck man that's near 50% the KE of a 115gr 9mm bullet at 100 yrds

[@MarcRitzMD]

In case you weren't aware, if you've plotted the data points for draw length and draw weight in excel, then you can get the area under the curve (definite integral) with quadxy function: QUADXY(A1-A10, B1-B12) for example. Also, I believe the power-stroke, rather than the draw length, is the correct data point in computing for potential energy. So draw length minus brace height.

[@TheWayofArchery]

Yes, the power stroke length has been accounted for.

[@muazhdarchery2473]

In the case of the graph be a linear functions, would you agree that the value of "k" will effect the store energy when the bow is pull @ 28inch? For example I have 2 bow similar spec (100#@28) with same brace height of 6" but different power stroke , bow A 10#@7" and bow B 15#@7".. which bow that u believe giving the more energy to arrow which lead to high arrow speed?

[@MarcRitzMD]

@@muazhdarchery2473 if the draw curves of both bows are linear, then k must be the same for both if they both end up at 100# at 28". Both would necessarily have the same draw weight at 7". Remember that both bows must have 0 lbs force at 6" and 100 lbs force at 28". The k-value must be 4.54 (100 divided by 22; draw length minus brace height). At 7", they would have 4.54 lbs. To fit different data points at 7", you'd need a curve not a line. If we allow curves, then the bow with the greater draw weight early would have more energy. You can visualize it by looking at the area under the curves. And you can calculate by finding the definite integral.

[@muazhdarchery2473]

@@MarcRitzMD thanks for the explanation.. I assume the k value could be different If the bow design and it's limb curvatures between bow A & B is different. This is just an example. If I plot the linear line (draw length vs Poundage) based on the above example data that I mentioned, where I started at 6inch draw length with a different draw weight ( bow A & B) and endup to 100#@28, the K value is different right?. Based on this, I believed that K value play important role when we calculate the store energy . Would agree on this? Just seek ur opinion in this example.

[@MarcRitzMD]

@@muazhdarchery2473 I think the confusion comes from the brace height. You would start plotting it at 6". So, 6" draw length is x=0 (and y=0) and 28" draw length is x=22 (and y=100). Different bow designs will store different amounts of potential energy but we wouldn't try to represent it as k because the simple formula for springs only applies to idealized, linear simple springs. A straight bow would have a curve that is just a linear line for the most part. One reason why compound bows and the really good composite bows are so much better is visible in their force draw curve. It bulges up compared to a straight force draw curve. Googling "compound force draw curve" will have some image results

[@sitrilko]

The question in the desc makes me curious. Why is 5.25gpp too low for modern material bows? And is ti suitable for horn bows?

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

There's a difference between what's safe & what you can do if you want to push the limits. For instance, Kevin Strothers claims to shoot around 2.8-3gpp for a hunting compound bow (135-150lb draw, 410-430-grain arrows). He doesn't recommend customers shoot his production bows under 5gpp, but personally does so.

[@srinjoyroychoudhury7034]

What does the word xiaoshao mean?

[@aerindeleon9878]

I think it means “Small/short ear” with regards to the length of the siyahs

[@kylin3197]

小弰 "little ends of a bow"

[@srinjoyroychoudhury7034]

@@kylin3197 Thank you 😊

[@stav1369]

Great vid

[@MarcRitzMD]

Is there a specific archaeological bow that this one is a replica of?

[@hipanny3792]

That bow is called Ming xiao shao. "ming" is mean Ming dynesty which is a dynasty of anicent Chinese(around 600-500years ago)."xiaoshao" is mean small ear bow.together means small ear bow in Ming dynasty.

[@hipanny3792]

If you want to know more about that you can found some old book like“武经总要"，there is some military knowledge of Ming dynasty.but that book doesn't have English translation.they are all written in ancient Chinese.

[@theatrenisha9345]

Master Jaap's creation is exquisite , sheer poetry.

[@lotoreo]

god that kid is adorable lol

[@combatarcheryswitzerland1582]

Not bad for a Bio Composite. A simple Kaya KTB does 287 fps @ 75 lbs

[@TheWayofArchery]

This is a full horn composite. There is no artificial material in this bow.

[@hipanny3792]

This bow has a small different to mordern Korean bow.what we see today is the korean“礼弓”(bow used for sporting)not war bow.although It is can gives a higher arrow speed,it can not perform well when shooting heavy war arrow and this bow is ming war bow,which is suitable for shooting heavier arrow in lower arrow speed.they are two different kind of bow.

[@scratchyrick]

BIOcomposit is a trade name for a modern material with some natural products added that Grozer makes bicycles, oh and bows, from. This is a true natural horn composite bow.

[@gushlergushler]

It is incredible that a bow that short can draw this long with such a high drawweight. Incredibly impressive.

[@hipanny3792]

Yeah a lot of Asian bow can do that like Korean bow,Ming xiaoshao and kai yuan bow

[@jake4194]

this bow probably weighs under 1 pound also. the efficiency of these bows is amazing

[@rcislariu]

I never saw those types of cut out for the string on the siah's before. Beautiful bow and excellent technique as always.

[@gizmonomono]

I find it very impressive that you can hold it at full draw for that long. Amazing 248 fps! That's incredible!