Minisode - Kylo Ren as a Compelling Villain

Dan talks about that Star Wars thing. As always: WE ASSUME YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE!

[@jmorales09]

Juh Jabrams

[@Jixaw15]

Joe Kerr ...pretty sure he's saying jewjabrams

[@stevenbeckwith6307]

Joe Kerr is juh jabrams really a thing? because I didn't find it charming, more cringing.

[@FooLove91]

Jixaw15 yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not and he's actually saying J-Jabrams. Since his name is, ya know, JJ Abrams. And maybe you should reevaluate why you're hearing him say "jewjabrams." Yikes.

[@ohhoworiginal]

Steven Beckwith In another video, he pronounces the new "Fantastic 4" movie as Fan-4-stic, like how the title card is designed. I think he just likes to poke fun of how names look the way they're written out, especially when used so repeatedly. And maybe reduce the number of syllables.

[@Jixaw15]

Emily Johnson I'm hearing him say jewjabrams because he's very obviously Jewish (which he has said himself in many interviews) and it is quite clear that the guy in the video is alluding to that as well. What do you mean yikes?! there is nothing wrong with seeing that very obvious connection nor with calling a Jewish person a Jew...

[@JeanneNey99]

Watching this after Rise of Skywalker is a little heartbreaking

[@ashikjaman1940]

Hindsight is 2020

[@hypherism]

TRoS isn't nearly as good as 7 and 8, but it's fine. Definitely not "terrible" like everyone seems to treat it

[@lizardlegend42]

@@hypherism nah it's... pretty bad. It's only really focused on going from plotpoint to plotpoint, doesn't resolve multiple threads (wtf did Finn want to tell Rey?), shoehorns in palpatine in the most hanfisted and clearly rushed way and so much more. Overall though, it's just not enjoyable for me, at all. It's so corporate and cares nothing for worldbuilding nor making sense. It's not quite as soul crushing as episodes 1 and 2, but at least those clearly had a lot of passion and attention to detail put in even of it was very misdirected. But hey, that's just my opinion

[@briansebor]

@@hypherism all the movies you listed are terrible

[@hypherism]

@@briansebor oh, sorry, I forgot you didn't like them. Obviously that means they're objectively "terrible" lol

[@KingsandGenerals]

I feel that this video exists only to say JaJabrams few times :-)

[@Crowley9]

I personally prefer Jar Jar Abrams.

[@lead_downpour8854]

You’re everywhere!

[@crisis8v88]

And maybe for the joke at the end.

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

Darth Bad'gi? What'chu talkin' bout? I mean, the other villains were Darth Maul, Darth Sideous, Darth Tyrannus, General Grievous . . . Oh, I think I see what you're getting at.

[@GeahkBurchill]

And Admiral Bone-2-pick... but they didn't mention him.

[@Fullbatteri]

Geahk Burchill, I love you.

[@BrooksMWhalen]

cheezemonkeyeater For reference, George Lucas wanted to name Starkiller Darth Icky. That's a real thing. Thank god he was over ruled. (Even though Starkiller is fan service garbage.)

[@Enruler]

Wow dude, you left out Captain I'm a Bad Guy.

[@skidooshlayman12]

Don't forget Cad Bane from the clone wars series.

[@theeverydaychallenge]

Jupiter Ascending? Say whaaaaaaaa?

[@FoldingIdeas]

I WILL HEAR NO EVIL WORD ABOUT OUR BEE QUEEN! BEES KNOW ROYALTY!

[@benodell7906]

Are......... you joking?

[@GeahkBurchill]

So, because you are trolling us on Jupiter Ascending I must assume you are also trolling us when saying TFA is any damn good.

[@FoldingIdeas]

Jupiter Ascending is great trash, and I love it for all the same reasons I love The Chronicles of Riddick. TFA is a decent adventure film driven by an entertaining cast. While hardly perfect it is mostly high points with some flashes of true brilliance.

[@GeahkBurchill]

Folding Ideas I legit gained more entertainment value from Jupiter ascending than The Force Awakens. This is largely because I don't care anything about the world created by the Wachaowskis. There was no previous character arcs to destroy and they only imagined there were any future stories to tell. (They turned out to be wrong) While, TFA, on the other hand failed to do three important things. • It failed to stand up as a single film experience, relying entirely on, both, the past and future to "fix" it. • It failed to logically continue the stories of characters from the previous films in a way which was consistent with those characters and their adventure. •It failed to adequately entice the audience to want to see future chapters (Outside of it being Star Wars - I mean, Imagine if Star Wars had never existed and TFA came out? - it would have been Jupiter ASCENDING - in which case I wouldn't have cared and would have enjoyed it more) Structurally, it was OK. Fine. Serviceable. Especially if you don't have any great love for Han, Leia or Luke and their previous accomplishments. It was made decently. BUT, I _enjoyed_ Rogue One far more even though it _ALSO_ doesn't stand on it's own. Rogue One did the singularly exceptional thing of actually improving A New Hope by adding significant emotional weight and urgency. TFA, instead, lessened the impact of Return of the Jedi. It rendered the arcs of the characters meaningless and their actions insignificant. The OT went from being Epic to being a historical pebble in a pond which produced no ripples.

[@poontang3zizo]

Kylo Ren to me is like the anti Anakin Skywalker. He's basically the same brash, brave, whiny teenager that wants to prove himself. Except this time he's already on the dark side and is tempted toward the light. Anakin was just the opposite.

[@kiwikakashi]

+poontang3zizo I think this film gave that sort of character its proper treatment. Anakin was taken a bit too seriously in the prequels I think given that he was often dumb and vain. Kylo is scary but FA takes time to point out his flaws and laugh a little. I think FA handles it's humour to much greater effect than the prequels ever did.

[@poontang3zizo]

kiwikakashi I agree wholeheartedly with you brother

[@snowpdx]

+kiwikakashi "I think FA handles it's humour to much greater effect than the prequels ever did." QFT

[@lawlz888]

+poontang3zizo how does he whine im guessing you didnt even watch the movie, he has more to him and more depth in 1 movie then vadar had in 6

[@poontang3zizo]

Jukes Jukes Dude. I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about...

[@SEH221]

bless how you say jj Abrams

[@lizarddude7874]

jejabrams

[@ShovelChef]

The more he said it, and the more I read it in the comments, the harder I laugh. It's infectious or something. 😂😭😵

[@orka16605]

J.J. Binks

[@kiwikakashi]

His reveal was less 'nothing' and more 'holy shit he's a teenager' to me. It really helped frame his anger and frustration as childish tantrums and I'm glad the rest of the film tried to reflect this (the stormtroopers just sheepishly walking away was hilairious). He still does possess immense power but I'm glad they've countered that with real emotional vulnerabilities rather than making him a totally dark and edgy sith lord. Kylo is definitely a lot more human and relatable and it made him the best character in the film.

[@kalashnikovdevil]

+kiwikakashi Sheepishly walking away seemed more of a "Let's beat feet before we become collateral damage" to me.

[@ForeverFreeStudios]

Teenager? His character is literally 30 years old in the film

[@msjkramey]

He does look very boyish tho

[@Keihzaru]

A 32 year old tenager.

[@Darth_Bateman]

@Gerr Gerring a spoiled child? Eh iunno about that. But I do know that unresolved anger in one's twenties does not go away just because one ages up.

[@Punchcado]

Agree. The only additional detail I would have called out is that the viewer can tell something is up with Kylo Ren from the first moment he appears, simply by his walk: hurried, a bit shoulder-hunched, just slightly unstable, the walk of someone afraid he might not make it to the party on time, and is obsessing about what people might think of him. Contrast with Vader's entry in Ep IV.

[@ugurcanergn]

I thought him as a middle finger from the authors for the "OMG Sith are so cool!" people.

[@AI_Frog]

sith are cool though

[@agilemind6241]

@@AI_Frog Why? Most Sith have been little more than cardboard cut outs that look mean. Sith have cool outfits but they themselves have less personality than most corporate mascots.

[@Transfixed]

Yes! Someone gets it! Kylo Ren is interesting and doesn't need to be diluted into a "badass" as people seem to want.

[@sebastianquintero1834]

Dendric's Evening Toy his backstory was interesting but they made him act like a spoiled child in the movie

[@Transfixed]

Sebastian Quintero Well yeah, he is a villain after all. Young, impetuous, and taking the quick and easy route to power.

[@VultureClone]

Sebastian Quintero That's the point. It's called a character arc. He's started off as an impetuous, bratty child and we'll see him grow into an actual competent villain in later movies.

[@tylerskiss]

plus, and I said this elsewhere, they were smart enough to leave him alive. Now we are entering Episode VIII with our characters already established and in their starting positions, which will leave us more time for the story to build.

[@OnyDeus]

"Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering" - Yoda. Kylo is one of the few Dark Side Jedi to actually show fear and anger and hate like this line portrays.

[@Browntable]

JuhJabram made me laugh lol

[@S0larisPrime]

Excellent stuff. Ren was fascinating in a Kilgrave kinda way. A PATHETIC character, whose attempts at gravitas ring hollow, and that's brilliant.

[@Learned_English_Dog]

+DoctorWhat SA Absolutely. I love that the screenwriter was willing to frame Ren's violent outburts (tantrums) as comic. Just lovely.

[@goroakechi6126]

The problem is (or I guess was now) is that it doesn’t work for long term conflict. I think it’s why JJ set up Snoke, to be an actual threat to Rey, Finn and Poe in comparison to Kylo.

[@mischake]

Kylo Ren is a good character, but the movie mishandled him in a small but crucial way: they made him take off his helmet too early. Imagine if Kylo Ren remained this masked villain throughout the movie up till the moment that he confronts han solo, his father, on that bridge... han tries to reason with this masked guy whom we've seen is a manacing reckless guy, young but really powerful and dangerous... and then he takes off his helmet and we see that he really is just a kid, we see a face that looks so innocent, we think this moment might actually be a turning point in the story where han solo wins back his son... and then that hope is immediately shattered as kylo ren kills his father. i felt that in the movie that we got to see too much of him as a person, too early, and i stopped being impressed by him as a manacing villain, simply because they showed his teenage face too early and for very little reason. the reveal that it's just a kid is really placed in the wrong spot in the movie.

[@Noah-Lach]

I never though of it that way, but something always felt off about his character. I 100% agree with your analysis.

[@1001stDuck]

I liked how he removed his helmet in front of Rey because it showed how vulnerable he really felt. He isn't Vader, and possesses none of the menace or intrigue. We already know about his family, and his identity. In that sense, as the video guy said, we find him more relatable. It's less about the menace and mystery behind his character, and more about understanding his personality and motives, which was better communicated by him removing his mask earlier. That being said, you still have a point. It would've built more suspense later in the film if he didn't remove his mask, but up to that point it didn't appear he was vulnerable to being turned back to the light. There wasn't much foreshadowing of any such conversion, so it wouldn't have been as convincing.

[@mischake]

then it really comes down to what they were going for: awesome badguy or redeemable character. we'll have to find out in the next movie i guess. I still think the bridge scene would have been better in my version :)

[@maxkehm5080]

I Like the fact that he was revealed infront of Rey. Especially with her saying the line " that happens when you are being hunted by a creature in a mask" and than he takes it off and it is revelead that indeed he isn´t a creature. The moment of wonder and dissapointment that the Audience felt when he was revealed, is in my Eyes something that we were supposed to feel. He was supossed to be exactly that thing that we did not expect, and it fit so well with that Moment.

[@PauKj]

I honestly feel like that's the genius thing with him, though. Maybe I'm overthinking it a little, but when we're constantly disappointed by the villain that is actually behind the mask, we're being put more or less into the shoes of Ben Solo. He knows he's a disappointment, but he tries so desperately to keep his persona up as the evil villain Kylo Ren - the next Darth Vader, even though the illusion crumbles more and more for every passing minute. I agree that your version on the bridge would be more menacing, but I think in the way they did it that we get a better idea of his character.

[@IGameChangerI]

Jejabrams is now the way I will refer to JJ Abrams.

[@GeahkBurchill]

I call him Jarjarbrums.

[@trtx84]

Watching this after seeing Rise.... Just, ugh. So much potential and then Rise happened.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

I love rise because it's so perfectly horrible. There is no competency at all. It's not like Last were I don't like it and it messed up a lot but occasionally there's something done really well. It's a train wreck from start to finish.

[@Learned_English_Dog]

Out of all the gut punches that a nostalgia-drunk geek might be expected to get emotional over, it was Han shouting "Ben!" that got me. That name is such a wonderful touch, given the vaguely adversarial/dismissive relationship Han and Obi-Wan had. Ford's delivery is perfection. I unfortunately had the event that follows spoiled for me online, which is a shame, but honestly it wasn't even that important in the end. There was so much more to that scene.

[@N0obShroomerPlus]

+BakehousePictures Still think he's Jacen Solo...

[@erinhaury5773]

@@N0obShroomerPlus Popping in 3 years later to agree with you. It's like Disney canned the Extended Universe, then gave us Jacen in Kylo and Jaina in Rey. They're not siblings, but the spirit of Jacen and Jaina's relationship is still there. Also, every time someone said "Ben!" when talking to/about Kylo, I became momentarily confused because it made me think of Ben Skywalker. =p

[@RainaThrownAway]

I really like Kylo Ren as a character, and I cannot wait to see more of him. He is like Anakin Skywalker done right. The prequels had the unfortunate effect of diminishing Vader as a character. Seeing beyond the mask makes the whole thing feel wrong. When I look at the prequels version of Anakin Skywalker, I do not see a bad ass who commands the respect and fear of everyone in a room when he enters it. But Kylo Ren starts the movie as a blank slate, and the reveal that he's an impulsive, impetuous teenager gives his fits of anger early in the film more context. Early in the film, his mannerisms seem to be trying to ape Vader, but with an obvious lack of success. He's certainly impressive in his power, and his anger makes him someone to be feared, but he never seems to have that quiet command of a room that Vader has. And then the reveal happens, and... it's immediately obvious that that is *exactly* what Kylo Ren is. He tries to be more like his grandfather, but he just isn't quite able to get there. I legitimately have no idea where Kylo Ren's character arc is going to go. But whether he becomes a true big bad and turns his back completely on the Light, or he manages to turn away from the Dark Side, I look forward to every minute of it.

[@jedimarhwini948]

Eh, George Lucas pretty much knew from the beginning that Vader was going to be the "dark father". This idea of Vader as ultimate evil was not what he intended, so in fact the audience is incorrect. George Lucas didn't "diminish" Vader. He corrected a wrong assumption.

[@maximeteppe7627]

metatextually, this is fascinating seeing a character twho is "prequel anakin skywalker trying to be OT Darth Vader" and as a result succeds in being a compelling character. Lots of other things aboout the movie fell flat for me. But Kylo is a compelling character.

[@MrFrostburner]

Eh, George Lucas didn't think he was getting more than one movie, Darth Vader doesn't mean Dark Father in any language, and he didn't plan shit about his movies until he started writing them.

[@jedimarhwini948]

MrFrostburner Um, have you seen any of the archived notes and images? Yes, he wasn't certain if he was going to get other movie, but he definitely knew there was more to Vader than just "pure evil". That is why it is crucial to keep in mind the way that the movie business works. Lucas did what a responsible movie maker should go and made a film that did not leave the audience with questions that compromised the integrity of the movie's structure, yet it wasn't so close-ended that a sequel wasn't going to feel like a natural narrative progression. No, he didn't plan EVERYTHING, but he sure as hell had ideas about where he wanted the story to go. Darth Vader being the father of the hero(es) was definitely one of those ideas. So the point still stands.

[@DainLaguna]

Jedi Marhwini did it need correcting though? They establish his redemption and that he was never the penultimate bad guy by the end of jedi. The prequels hamper vaders story, because they require you to endure films that hardly work as films. Kylo Ren is fucking shakespear by comparison

[@Crazy_Diamond_75]

Omg, so much this. Everyone bitched about how Kylo Ren acted like a petulant child, but for all the reasons you just pointed out, I thought he was one of the most compelling characters in the Star Wars film-iverse.

[@kevinvu5432]

AMGwtfBBQsauce but he is a child.....and unfortunately hasn't has a single mature thought come out of hi.. He's great because he reflects all our struggles and insecurities? Well no duh. Usually great compelling characters do. But how is he a great "villain". We don't see enough of what makes him a worthy villain to the Mary sue Rey.

[@luckyDancer100]

I actually really applaud JJ and Kathleen for fleshing out a decent, new villain. I remember seeing the first trailer for TFA, and thinking “I dunno about this.” It looked like Darth Vader 2.0. And if you’re gonna revamp a beloved franchise, it’s always best to start fresh. Not repeat the same beats from all the originals. Personally, I think they’ve done fantastic work.

[@vincentdawn9689]

Jupiter Ascending? Jesus.

[@FoldingIdeas]

+Wolfshead Ill fite u

[@TooFatTooFurious]

+Folding Ideas i am really impressed that you liked it that much...on that note, is there a hope that you will do a full "Folding ideas" episode on it? I would love to hear your oppinion.

[@fuckenps3]

Jupiter Ascending is great fun, I don't get the hate.

[@HotaruKara]

My same exact reaction. I hope he meant it in a "so bad it's good way".

[@bobcho105]

NDfor SPDadsdas you're right, it's hilariously bad

[@JackHails]

What drives Kylo Ren? Adam! Get it, cause the actor's name is Adam Driver and I'll just go away now..

[@fuckinzell]

For a second I took this as a Bioshock reference lol

[@JackHails]

Bunsen Labs sorry just a stupid pun. no little sister kylo here :D

[@fuckinzell]

Nonsense! All puns are good puns lol.

[@oof-rr5nf]

Noooooo. Come back, Ida. That was a good joke.

[@Fungo4]

People seem not to like how angry and emotional and angsty Kylo was, but to me it makes so much sense because that's literally how the Dark Side works. Original Trilogy Vader is great and all, but the one thing I never understood was how despite the Dark Side being well explained, he never once feels like someone who uses anger and hate to accomplish goals, fight, or use the force. Sure he can raise his voice to his subordinates sometimes, but he's not an emotional type. Especially compared to the Emperor who revels in being eeeevil, Vader just doesn't fit the Dark Side description. Kylo on the other hand is exactly the type to fall to the dark side, but more importantly he still is.

[@ericsheldahl5158]

On Vader: Think about this. Everyone really seems to hate that "NOOOOOOO!" moment at the end of Revenge of the Sith, but what did it actually accomplish in terms of developing the character? He had just learned that his wife and children were dead, Obi-wan had just betrayed him and mangled his body (or, as it actually happened, he betrayed Obi-wan), and most of his body was replaced with prosthetic parts. In that moment, he recognized that he had become a real monster, inside and out. Sure, he hates the Jedi because they denied him what he believed he deserved (the title of Master, a non-secretive relationship with Padme), but he also hates himself for all the atrocities he'd committed in the name of revenge. And he hates the Emperor for manipulating him like that. However, at that point, there was no going back. The only path he could see was to serve the Emperor, who he knew could easily kill him at any time. After twenty years, he had given up on hope for redemption, until he saw an opportunity to kill the Emperor with the help of Luke (in Return of the Jedi). All of this to say, Darth Vader's use of the Dark Side is fueled by grief and self-loathing. I think that's plenty Sith Lord.

[@PrimordialNightmare]

Soo Vader is basically past fear anger and hate and has reached the destination suffering.

[@ericsheldahl5158]

PrimordialNightmare Huh. I guess you could put it like that.

[@Gveskoyen]

"Darth Ba'dgii" Yep, Star Wars names can sometimes be a bit on the nose. I mean, Savage Opress, really?

[@DT-od3hd]

Honestly I don't think that name is all that bad. I mean, when you write it down it looks goofy but when you say it out loud the two words lose their context in a way.

[@LegendLeaguer]

Padaster maybe because Savage Opress sounds like they're saying those words but try to make them sound French instead.

[@JackgarPrime]

Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus and two of the most laughable names I've ever seen. Ever.

[@ConnorNotyerbidness]

Am i the only one who heard him say jajabrams?

[@Trynottoblink]

Yeah, you are. You should get your ears checked.

[@enigma19833]

Indeed, you are literally the only person who heard it.

[@jakewd8830]

Yeah I heard that too

[@Dajawright]

Are you guys joking? He obviously said "jajabrams"

[@skii_mask_]

Connor notyerbidness It's supposed to be funny, but I just find it annoying.

[@BR-ec2ph]

I disagree with people saying this aged poorly. Kylo Ren is still hands down the most compelling part of the new Star Wars films clearly and obviously. Even if you think they didn't stick the landing, he was a well crafted, well performed character.

[@stellaluna6421]

I'm of the opinion that he has the most emotional and story continuity of any of the characters and they did a great job telling his story. Other characters tended to be much more uneven between films and it was clear that plotlines got swapped or scrapped, but Kylo Ren got a clean and well-defined arc that was set up excellently in the TFA. Whether or not audiences prioritized his story the same as the filmmakers is another story, but he wasn't the weak link.

[@NelsonStJames]

I'd really like to see if Dan's opinion has evolved over time, or stayed the same, because I think a lot of people were riding high on emotion after seeing TFA, but that enthusiasm simmered down pretty rapidly after they had time to really think about it.

[@AzaJabar]

Jupiter Ascending? hhhhmmm...

[@FoldingIdeas]

Bees. They know royalty.

[@AzaJabar]

they do!

[@joyjump9880]

I rewatched the force awakens recently and I’m still blown away by how fantastic Adam Driver’s performance is. Yes it is decently written, but I can’t get over how in helmet reveal scene you can FEEL the middle school awkwardness of a boy trying to impress his crush. I remember watching it for the first time and thinking, “oh this is a HUMAN human boy” and all the fucked up implication of him having so much power at his disposal. What a waste of a character and performance on this clusterfuck of a trilogy

[@viralengine908]

So, what I've gathered and this is from reading a lot of the other reviews, Kylo Ren is Zuko.

[@HannibalHanslaughter]

+viralengine908 he's not handsome though ^^

[@QwertyCaesar]

+viralengine908 Zuko without Uncle Iroh. Also unlike Zuko he starts out as a defector. Zuko is being faithful to his family who doesn't deserve it, Kylo Ren abandoned his family for reasons unknown, likely due to his force sensitivity.

[@viralengine908]

I'm speaking thematically. He's a guy who does bad things because he holds on to a false ideal and doesn't have any motivation or reason to other than fear of change.

[@QwertyCaesar]

viralengine908 Well his motivations are unclear so I'm not sure if its right to call it a "false ideal" yet. Its difficult for him to do it but sometimes you're in situations you have to do one thing that is bad to avoid an outcome that is even worse. Star Wars actually dealt with that notion before in Knights of the Old Republic. Is Revan kind of a bad guy for attacking the Republic and trying to take over the known galaxy? Yeah. But he's not completely wrongheaded in doing so because finds that to be the most rational course of action given that he believes an otherwise insurmountable threat is on the horizon coming from the unknown parts of the galaxy. TFA didn't really go into the values or motivations of the New Order, Snoke, Kylo Ren or any of the other antagonists except that the general of the New Order vaguely said something about "order" in a speech and the fact that Kylo Ren, the only antagonist we have any real understanding of, isn't black-and-white we might see more grey in the future films.

[@ReinhardOrDieTrying]

Except Zuko is well written and Kylo Ren is not.

[@ogrej9667]

"Juh Jabrum" earned a like from me.

[@DevotedpupaVODs]

He'll probably get a Darth Rly Eveel when he finishes his training.

[@andrewp6738]

4 years out, still a stellar analysis of Kylo Ren’s character. I’ve removed episode 9 from my brain so who’s to say how his arc ended lol

[@lizardlegend42]

Honestly the scene where he reunites with Han's memory/force ghost/whatever is the only genuinely good scene in the film. Which is cool since it's the only one that applies the "it's like poetry, it rhymes" philosiphy of Lucas in its intended way. Not as a lame reference or nostalgia kick in the balls, but as an actual narrative tool to demonstrate thematic parallels. I guess a broken clock is still right twice a day after all

[@orbaitv5991]

TF is wrong with 9? It literally concluded his character perfectly.

[@adamb1117]

This aged well.

[@APlayfulLittleBlend]

YES, YES, for Fucks sake yes, finally, people who realize that he is a complex character, not just the bad guy from grandma's boy

[@AkashWShah]

The fact that he listed Jupiter ascending at the beginning kind of astonished me.

[@haroldp.sadwood1181]

Seriously! Was he for real? It has to be in a so-bad-it's-good way, right? Right???

[@hideshiseyes2804]

Spot on. When he was first introduced I thought "that's rubbish, he's just a Darth Vader wannabe", then in the chilling scene where he kneels in front of the helmet I found myself thinking "that's awesome, he's just a Darth Vader wannabe!"

[@thosediamonddreams]

This poor man has no idea what sadness awaits him

[@rocketb00t]

So glad to see someone showing some love for Kylo Ren. Too many people hate on him because he's "too whiny" or some other reductive statement about the character's flaws. Flawed characters are the best characters, y'all! A villain that has an internal struggle and expresses his inadequacies for the audience? That's called good characterization!

[@eastergaard9346]

Kylo Ren lacked good 5 Minutes of Exposition to set up his relationsship to his parents. While the big stand-off on the bridge is good, it lacked the emotional impact on me. I simply didn't have enough binding to Ren, to really buy and care for his emotional struggle.

[@ColinPatrickWeiss]

just found your channel +1 sub, hope you blow up, you're so well spoken. I work in TV/Film and find all you talk about so fascinating, thanks for spreading the knowledge.

[@chrislawler1639]

Just found this channel but really enjoy the videos. It's a really good explanation of a variety of concepts I had no idea really existed... fascinating

[@somethingdiffrant]

I was already sold on your channel, but this...ah! THIS!

[@jackmace6531]

Oh, you poor, poor summer child. If only you could know what we know now

[@albumorienteddungeons343]

Man, I miss 2015. I miss being excited about TFA and what the future might hold.

[@DustyMusician]

uh did anybody tell ben darth vader turned good somebody needs to tell him

[@jedimarhwini948]

Oh, he knows. He's just in denial.

[@Mordalon]

Just as Obiwan thought Vader "killed" Anakin, Kylo saw the same thing happen in reverse.

[@MrHatoi]

"a blunt instrument for smarter, more conniving forces" lmfao

[@madeleinesherer7615]

Watching this made me miss tfa era kylo ren so much. the last two movies made the mistake of assuming that because he was such a good character, the answer was to spend a ton of screen time on him when that was the exact opposite of what made him work as a character.

[@LordXerus]

You know what would make these movies infinitely better? If we could switch the castings of Adam Driver and Hayden Christiansen. Adam’s dark, brooding, but obsessive and menacing demeanor would have made a more believable Anakin, and Hayden’s wishy-washy demeanor would have made more sense in Kylo. And I also think that Anakin should have visited Kylo as a force ghost to tell him that his legacy wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. And also... JAR JAR WAS A SITH LORD!!!!!

[@jedijeremy]

"It's great that he's not named Darth B'had-Gai." Indeed.

[@jonzu4]

(Jay. Jay. Abe. Rams.)

[@Sommer57]

Jar Jar Abrams.

[@crabdragon243]

Sommer57 He's the key to all of this

[@gamestation2690]

Jeffrey Jacob Abrams

[@VixxKong2]

lol

[@Dreamweaver393]

I think I just found my new favorite KZbin channel.

[@michaelsnow3536]

I think the reason so many people complain about Kylo Ren is because of that same reason, that on some level they can relate with him so closely and it frustrates them to see themselves like that, so weak and exposed.

[@danfelder8062]

Kylo Ren was almost a brilliant villain, but the way he was presented undermined his impact significantly. There seemed to be two ways to go about presenting the character. 1) Have him *appear* to be an honorable villain at first, put us in the position of Han and Leia. Have the first obviously bad thing he personally does be killing Han, for the giant reveal. Make it look like the movie expects Kylo to be redeemed in that moment, and have him shockingly kill possibly the most beloved character instead. Example: Instead of ordering "kill them all" at the village, have him command the troops to not waste power cells on slaughtering them. When an officer challenges him on it, use that moment to demonstrate his brutality against the villainous character that wants to kill the innocents. 2) Make him a brutal monster, but maintain his intimidating factor. Don't have him whine or look pathetic. Because we learn his parentage, we expect him to be redeemable. The reveal of his unscarred face in the room with Rey is more than enough to show he's not too far gone yet with Darth Vader's precedence of redemption. Finally, losing the battle to Rey undermines his menace - no matter the setup. If we'd watched Darth Vader smashed around in personal combat by the end of the first movie (spinning off into space from a surprise attack from a gigantic ship doesn't count), it would dramatically undermine the threat. And while a whiny tantrum-throwing insecure fanboy might make for compelling character, and an adorable parallel to the film makers' fears of not being as good as the original trilogy, it doesn't make for either an intimidating villain or a sympathetic one. Brilliant core character, weak presentation.

[@dinosaurspy7096]

Great episode!

[@MrBeiragua]

so Kylo Ren is the ultimate Darth Vader cosplayer, and that's why we love him.

[@VerneditheSnail]

Speak for yourself.

[@paulmuaddib451]

I love this, even coming in years later. It worked and it was good.

[@hicthcock100]

There was plenty of missed opportunities on this movie, Kylo Emo is definitelly one of them, not the biggest, yet being part of some of the others. 1. The rush to make Finn a hero clearly boosted by the social justice bandwagon throw away the opportunity to explore better the relationship between Finn and two major characters of the First Order, aka Galactic Empire 2.0: Captain Phasma, and of course, Kylo Ren himself. Finn didn't need to came alongside Poe Dameron. If they, couldn't make to escape together, that could be a great scene to stablish how difficult is to escape from the ruthless First Ordaaahhh. Because of the desperate situation, Finn end up being separated from Poe who escape, and maybe having to pretend he was captured - wich make sense, he's the janitor after all, not a real trooper - and forced to show him the way to the ships. That could have set a significant number of moments of him with Kylo Emo and Captain Nonexistent. Finn having to explain to them what happened could show the crude way of Kylo and Phasma to maintain the discipline of the troops, and provide tension between these three characters that would allow us to know better their motivations, specially why Finn want to quit the First Order for good. Maybe even set a personal tension between Phasma and him, something that could even mirror Luke and Mara Jade's situation, since he is clearly friendzoned by Rey. It would be great to see him break the ice of Space Brienne, that would be real justice. Nothing stops the script of reunite Finn with Rey and Dead Man Solo on the Takodana aka Mos Eisley Cantina/Endor Moon planet on the battle, he is completelly useless on their way to there, limited to comic relief, and more chances to put him with a lightsaber in hand with that "traitor" scene that only contributes to make him more looser. It would be fun to see Rey and Solo's interaction with that strange deserter stormtrooper. And about him serving as a gunner on the escape from Jakku in the Milleniun Falcon? Rey is the greatest pilot of the galaxy since Anakin Skywalker, why she couldn't outrun those miserable Tie Fighters, since she live there for years and know the terrain more than them? What could make Rey to want to get out of Jakku and look for the resistance? She speaks "droidish" apparently... the First Order would invade anyway after Poe and she would need to escape, plus BB8 could tell her how to find the Resistance aka Rebel Alliance 2.0. Boyega deserved more.

[@hicthcock100]

2. Poe Dameron going alone to Not-Tatooine could fix one the biggest flaws in this movie: Poe DISAPPEARS of the movie until that Biggs Darklighter moment with Finn in D’Qar aka Yavin IV 2.0, and, of course, the Starkiller Base aka Death Star 3.0 trench moment, where he totally knows what to do and in the end he even dare to say: "My work here is done...", of course , the others who died didn't do nothing... And it doesn't matter if the book adaptation tells more or not, it's not in the movie storytelling. Since Poe is more closer to Leia, his meeting with Han Solo could be even more interesting, even more than that with Maz Kanata aka Yellow Yoda Girl that only managed to deliver a poor simulacrun of philosophy. Again, Poe is a great and dinamic character and the interaction between him and Rey could have beem much more productive for both characters since they both are aces from a certain point of view.

[@hicthcock100]

3. My bet for Kylo Ren is that he is not a dark side user, he is acting as a double agent in this movie, since he kills someone who was going to attack Rey on her Force vision. In their fight on Starkiller he says to Rey: "I can show you the ways of the Force!" he says "...the Force", not "the Dark side", he says she need a teacther, wich is a more paternal concept, and not a master wich is a more hierarchical concept. In the second moment of the fight he was defending himself from her, whos was showing traits of the dark side. We all know and Ben is no different, Anakin returned as a Jedi in the end of Return of the Jedi (duh), his spirit is no longer of a Sith. so IF he is really talking to Anakin on that Hamlet wannabe scene, it cannot be on the way of him learning to use the dark side of the Force, but in order learn to resist it, Kylo Ren definitely doesn't have Sith traits, as Jar Jar Abrams even stated that were no Siths in this movie. It is clear to me that the moment he kills Han in such a boring way as it was, that moment was his final trial to convince Supreme Uninspired Design Leader Snorkel, as we see Snoke says: "It's time to complete his training..." Having said that, his drama - even if my bet prove not to be true - is nothing more than a pale oposite of Anakin's life. In the scene introducing Sebulba in Episode I the Dug says: "If you weren't a slave, I'd squash you now.", to a 10 year old boy, as Anakin calmly replies: "Yeah, it'd be a pity if you had to pay for me.", he was humilliated his whole life, he came out from the lowest class of a society - slave - to one of the highest aristocratic classes - Jedi - and fall in love with a senator, who lives far away from his drama, maybe that's why she couldn't save him. He brougth a vision of someone who doesn't understand the process of politics and corruption, a more black & white vision about justice that in the end turn him into a facist exactly because he doens't tolerate corruption. This is portrayed very clearly in the massacre of Mustafar - let's be honests, that is the dream of 90% of those who hate corrupt politicians - and in his statements to Obi-Wan: "If you're not with me... then you're my enemy." There's no way Ben Solo come from such a more suffering enviroment than Anakin's. Even if he was inside a turbulent father-mother relationship, the only inspiration Leia could give to him was to became a Kamikaze? Han left everything to go back to be a smugler? That's clearly a nod to the fans who doesn't want to see changes in those characters. Seriously, after that moment when Phasma was so shamefully captured and throw into the garbage - literally - all the last shards of respect I had for the First Nazi Wannabe was gone, they were a bunch of idiots. They lost a ultra-highly 20 times more expensive weapon than the Death Star for the same failure of 25 years ago, having a trench with acces to the main core. Poe only needed to consult a history book to find it. So, there's no way this enemy be worse than the Siths and the Empire. If you want to destroy Kylo Ren's Finalizer Destroyer, just put him on the main bridge and make him angry, he will lightsaber ravage all the bridge and the ship is going down.

[@hicthcock100]

4. Lawrence Kasdan wasn't more than a trap set to old longing fans who were angry with George Lucas because he hurt their feelings. Disney entered the social inclusion agenda for good with this movie - wich for me it's perfectly fine - but they commit a huge injustice when it comes to one person: Leigh Brakket, a woman that was a sci-fi and space opera writer long before George steps on that galaxy far, far away. She was the writer of the first drafts of the best chapter of the saga, The Empire Strikes Back, responsiblke for many details that ended up in the canon, but she died before finishing it and then Kasdan entered, not to mention that he, Kasdan, was the writer for the weakest episode of the original Trilogy, Return of the Jedi. Today Brakket is not even mentioned by the fans, specially the new female ones who wanted a "role model" female, they had a fantastic writer who works for great director in the past and no one seem to care about it. Kasdan was there for the same reason they lied about "using more pratical effects" when the last trilogy in fact used real sets and several huge models instead of the matte paintings of the past. While The Farse Awakens used a lot of CGI scenes on its battles. Not to dismiss Rey, I like her as a character, I like Daisy, but we already had a very badass woman on the battlefield in the original trilogy, Leia Organa, who kills the one who put her on the golden bikini. We have Padme putting Anakin and the Vice Roy on the ground intelectually, not only on battlefield. It doesn't matter if she's good at fight if she seens to achieve that because of mechandising over a changing of social paradigms, that's only the merchandising sector interfering in the script.

[@cthulhuhoops]

bless this video \o/

[@Punchcado]

May I suggest a topic that's been in my head since I saw the film, I haven't seen it discussed in this way yet, but I think you could do it justice. It seemed to me that SW:TFA had a lot of heavy lifting to do. It had to re-establish the proper look and feel of the SW universe; it had to introduce a new generation of lead characters while dealing gracefully with the previous heroes; it had to move women and people of color to the center of the action without being overbearing; it had to be a dutiful part of a long-running series while also being a good night at the movies for someone who had never seen a Star Wars film; it had to open up the universe to allow for different types of stories. In this sense I think the director and team were well-chosen for the task, and pulled of a string of minor miracles, not the least of which was making it OK for a storm trooper to be an individual person with a history. Imagine what a director like Ridley Scott would have done with this film -- a richer piece, but much less workable, much less a part of the picture. So, I'm stumbling all over that but perhaps you can offer some thoughts.

[@nicole4243]

i didn't even realise you were saying "jj abrams" strangely until i read the comments lol. i just wanted to say, i recently found your channel, and am going through your videos. i'm having a lot of fun with your format, and i really enjoy the quality of your analysis and delivery. thanks so much for creating and sharing your videos! :-)

[@jonathangumpangkum5563]

my theory is that "kylo's" arc will be the same is Severus Tobias Snape's. heck they even look the same!

[@Rime_in_Retrograde]

I know right! When he took off the mask my reaction was: "Omg, he was Snape's son the whole time!!" before realizing that was a completely different movie series...

[@Canaris4]

My theory is that Kylo is dead and he is never coming back. Ever.

[@Lindbluete]

@@Canaris4 Sooo... How do you feel about that prediction?

[@joelquick4954]

Everytime he says "Jajabrums" it is quite painful. Ow.

[@criance2990]

Oh thank you, I couldn't decipher what he was getting at.

[@Saieras]

Kylo Ren is one of the best comic relief characters I've seen in film. It's always fun when a villain takes himself more seriously than the movie does.

[@spinodino641]

Before I watched Episode 7, I was afraid that Kylo would be like Darth Maul in Episode 1. Just a badass looking bad guy with no depth (it looks like many people want that). But Iam glad how he turned out. He is a great character and my second favourite Star Wars character after Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.

[@SoChilledOutGuy]

turn on the like system what possible reason is there to have it off?

[@TheAlienne]

A great, succinct review! I would love to hear your thoughts on Jupiter Ascending btw, as I really enjoyed that movie myself. :)

[@ochopantejardinero3327]

Great channel with interesting points of view. Now... I need to see your video of Jupirer A.

[@Super-MackJ]

I know you've talked about The Last Jedi since it came out, but I'd love to see a revisiting of this minisode with the new context.

[@cristiangarcia1260]

I agreed with all you said about how they showed instead of making a character said but I don't agree with that the character was compelling. I understood kylo ren but i found him extremely annoying. I have not have an easy life at all but i don't find myself related with him at all either.

[@meris8486]

I really liked how they refer to him as Ben Solo or just Ben allot, it made him so much more human then "Vader" Thus highlighting his flaws and differences from said character

[@heliopyre]

I've made the case about why Kylo is a good character so many times. seems like most people who thought he was bad just didn't get it. they expected a badass and seemed to think the film makers tried to make him one and failed. they don't quite realise that he was never supposed to be one, that's what's interesting about him.

[@ntigdona7487]

yes obviously everybodybexcepted a badass... i mean, its kind of like how people keep saying everybody expected people to fight an army with a lightsaber...i mean seriously, i get you believe that, but maybe you should ask them first!

[@logancox6548]

I think Kylo Ren's hatred of Finn is more personal than just embarrassing him in the eyes of Snoke. For one thing, Snoke doesn't seem too concerned about a single defecting Storm Trooper; that reflects badly on General Hux more than Ren. I think the real reason he's got such a grudge against Finn is because Finn did what he was unable to do: he turned away from the First Order and the Dark Side, despite being "programmed from birth" to serve both. Finn is a reflection of Ben Solo's failures and insecurities.

[@Luna-gg1gf]

I never thought about it that way very interesting and I’d have to agree on some level. But I also noticed kylo locked eyes with Finn on the bridge with Rey and was enraged. He pumped his chest like an alpha male fighting over a girl. I’ve heard the scene be referred to as a drunken bar fight. I mean he even punches Finn lol

[@nathanielmatychuk3400]

Kylo Ren has a bit of a Theon Greyjoy thing.

[@connorallen162]

Crazy late to the party here, but I feel a strong need to say something. I used to hate Kylo-Ren, but you've changed my mind on something. He's a good character who's written and directed to convey lots of relatable compelling features, but that's not the same thing as being a good villain. The primary purpose of a villain is to add tension to the plot, to raise the specter of a credible threat to the characters we care about. There are lots of good movies who's villains are great precisely because they offer a credible threat but who aren't particularly relatable characters with sympathetic motives. Think of Scar from the Lion King or more aptly, Darth Vader from the original Trilogy. Darth Vader is one of the greatest villains of all time because he offers a credible threat to the main character, a seemingly insurmountable evil that Luke must confront, that's what makes Luke's journey and the "I am your father" reveal so powerful, is the weight of Darth Vader. If Darth Vader had a back story or moments of relatability that would honestly weaken the story, the original trilogy would no longer be the triumph of a boy learning to confront the darkness of a world that is a lot closer to him than he thought, it would be the story of two misunderstood characters misunderstanding eachothers' points of view and waving lazer sticks instead of talking about it. Admittedly there might be a good story out there about Darth Vader where he is sympathetic, just misunderstood (the prequel trilogy is not it) but that story would still need a villain, or some sort of antagonist that is a credible threat. Kylo-Ren as a character is so written to be relatable and flawed that he fails to be a meaningful threat so the fact that an impulsive, short sighted narcissist is beaten by two demonstrably competent individuals isn't all that surprising or rewarding.

[@VonJay]

I just discovered you today. Ran into a title that said art and editing and suicide squad. I must admit I admire how eloquent and informative and especially likable you are. I'm a supremely critical critic of film, and can go an entire movie year w/o liking any film at all(especially in this era). And though I do not like anything about Kylo Ren, I absolutely enjoyed hearing you speak about him. I'm not sure if jajabrams intended the Kylo face reveal to be self reflexive (on his overall theme). Even if you are or are not right I do not believe that any character in film that seeks to be like another will ever be compelling. And yes though 'art will never reveal the artist, will only reveal the critic' it is almost blatant to me and my circle of artists and filmmakers, what Kylo Ren's purpose is. Kylo's admirations are all of ours as star wars fans, and Jajabrams admiration as a film maker. We may try to mimic and be formulaic in our approach but won't even come close to recreating the magic. Though JJ is capable of creating an innovative template for the series moving forward, he chose to write a love letter that almost P.S.'d "I'm not worthy." I had so many problems with the symbolism at first. But after seeing Rogue One I could see how the retro feel and visually revisiting that period in star wars can still be interesting. But even so, I still can't comprehend their decision to copy and paste everything from the original series in TFA. The color palette, the vehicle design, the villain wanting to be someone he's not. Think about any individual you know and try to become just like him. Just think about it, it's a waste of time and isn't even interesting. A template moving forward is fine as long as it is vital and new and allows the artist to display his view. JJ had this opportunity, yet he chose to copy another's view? I still don't get it.

[@VonJay]

" I do not believe that any character in film that seeks to be like another will ever be compelling" It's postmodern material but the worst representation of it. It's not invoking your inner Bansky, painting dumbo being shot by terrorists. It's JJ basically drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

[@saintmaster22]

im just dying with the jjabrams

[@jesstradiol]

jajabrams sounds like a star wars alien name

[@hihkable]

I know it's the cool thing to dislike TFA right now, it I still quite enjoy the film.

[@thestubris]

hihkable It really is. The internet thought process is like the wind. Meanwhile...in the real world, most people still like the film.

[@SAMfromCALGARY]

I've never heard it pronounced "Jajabrams" before, and I don't think I'll ever be able to unhear it

[@waffleless]

You just made me respect Jar Jar Brams and the writers for realising such a character. Personally I am most excited to see what they will do with his character (as well as the Finn, who didn't really have a predecessor in Episode 4).

[@kesonafyren837]

JaJabrams and Darth Ba'dgii. You have earned another subscriber.

[@TheJaredtheJaredlong]

I can't _not_ call him Juhjabrams now

[@ALF12291]

thank you for this most people do not understand this

[@Blairskirock]

HE LIKED JUPITER ASCENDING

[@S0larisPrime]

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS Also the way Kylo Ren reflects a certain kind of fanboy cosplay mindset and is indicted for it. New Vader kills Han Solo in a moment of insecure emotionality, with his mask off and tears in his eyes. This is not the Star Wars of the EU. This is Star Wars that's GOOD. Fuck the haters, as it were.

[@VixxKong2]

Han Solo is dead? Damn, you could have putted a spoiler alert at least

[@alxjones]

This is carried over and dealt with brilliantly in VIII as well.

[@sebastienmeulenbergh8863]

THANK-YOU ! have been trying to explain that to most of my friends.

[@guybk]

Not to mention how he is an initiate in the Dark-side haunted by temptation to the Light. So compelling and honest.

[@pacman5698]

Kylo Ren. A sign that Disney knows one of the most compelling characters from _Legends_, Jacen Solo / Darth Caedus.

[@Cigarra]

Can you make a video saying why you thought Jupiter Ascending was as great as you aluded to? :D

[@rickwoods5274]

So uh, what are your thoughts on 8 and 9 >_>

[@mattiasmartens9972]

To me Kylo Ren is a reasonably compelling character, yes, but he's not a compelling villain. A compelling villain needs to have some kind of tension with the protagonist. Usually this is done by having them care about the same thing but in contrasting ways. Kylo is chasing after an imagined past, a legacy that he believes his father betrayed. His motivations stem from a desire to embody his ancestral hero combined with an insecure belief that he can never actually do so. Rey is without an identity. She doesn't know who her parents are and doesn't seem particularly bothered by it. She is stylistically out of place in the grimy, messy, dusty setting in which she is introduced, but doesn't show any strong feeling as to whether or not she belongs there (just that she's unhappy). In a better movie, the conflict between Kylo and Rey would have centred around identity-Kylo born into a legacy and tortured by it, Rey born into anonymity and seeking an understanding of where she comes from. Instead all Rey cares about is saving the galaxy. Of course diegetically that's important, but it leaves us without anything to connect the protagonist's central conflict with her growth as a character. When it came to Rey's origins, the screenwriters left it blank. She reads like an action figure, discarded in the sand until it's time to start the adventure. Presumably the screenwriters *expected* us to care what her true origins are, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they went into it in the subsequent movies, but as far as Awakens is concerned they did nothing to set up that question and took our curiosity on that point for granted. This is a shame because the question of identity is exactly what was needed to anchor the conflict between Kylo and Rey. It's also a shame because in A New Hope, which Awakens otherwise mostly follows beat for beat, considerable effort was spent on giving Luke a direct personal connection to the villain and anchoring him in his place of origin more generally. But even with an effective storytelling template right there for the taking, the writers of Awakens didn't do that, and the story suffers for it. I lean strongly toward the interpretation that they just didn't care.

[@DejligeTico]

Wait. Hold on. Jupiter Ascending?! Have you made a review video about that one, 'cause I'm curious as to how you find that a good movie :s

[@maverickmak]

It fits very nicely into the 'so bad its good' category.

[@dark3rthanshadows]

Wait a second Jupiter ascending??

[@FantasticMrEthan]

I'd love to see a Kylo Ren follow up video now after Last Jedi.

[@MrMartheun]

i lost you after you praised Jupiter Ascending.

[@tvsonicserbia5140]

It was fine set up, but they have to do more with it

[@nirbhaysharma1214]

i know my comment here is rather late, but i wanted to know your opinion about whether Kylo could actually work on his insecurity and inadequacy to become more confident and self-assured like Darth Vader or not

[@GregJourdan]

Alright, that's presenting him in a more interesting light, but how about the fact that he comes out like an extremely mopey teen that ends up doing absolutely terribly things (including the very spoilery and yet incredibly expected one) for... What reason again? Sentiments of self-inadequacy trying imitate grand dad? Damn, son.

[@matthewparker9276]

Such potential.

[@rmd251]

Jump cuts between sentences is fine. Jump cuts in the middle of sentences not super well edited together where you're cutting off the first few microseconds of a word and it's weird isn't. Otherwise, it was great.