Miracles and their Role in Creation

[@johnvervaeke]

I am so looking forward to my upcoming discussion with JP and Paul Vanderklay!!

[@LukasShannon]

So are we!

[@PsychoBible]

The thesis about miracles showing reality--rather than defying it--is a huge point!

[@kjekelle96]

Indeed, like the big bang itself.

[@chrisc7265]

it's poetic how, for scientific materialists, the points of most concentrated meaning in scripture become the points most impossible to touch

[@hellobroadway100]

@@kjekelle96 v

[@kjekelle96]

@@hellobroadway100 ?

[@manubishe]

@@chrisc7265 they can't touch these points?

[@dirtpoorrobins]

I’m here for my weekly Infrared Pill.

[@spearshaker7974]

Gel tabs.

[@allywallace7798]

The miracle that brought me to Christ is always such a strange phenomenon that people always wanna dismiss because it seems very silly and explainable but regardless of how it happened, it still has Christ written all over it and is mind boggling. I'll share it below for those interested in reading it. Back in May 2018, I was riding in my car and my Bluetooth wasn't working so I had to actually listen to the radio for once. At the time "God's Plan" by Drake was very popular and playing on almost every station. It became an earworm that I would sing everywhere I went. Around the same time I was going out to karaoke a lot and I really wanted to do this song for karaoke, but because it was so new, I highly doubt it that it would be in the system, so I gave up on trying. When I went to karaoke, and I went to check my favorites folder in the karaoke app, none of my pre picked favorite songs were there. Instead it was a list of random songs that I had never seen before. I had no clue what happened and it was very shocking. Still I scrolled through the list of mostly unfamiliar songs, only to find "God's Plan" by Drake staring me in the face waiting for me to find it. I was completely astonished. Of course I sang it right after that, and every time I would try to tell somebody, they would laugh it off and call me silly for reading anymore into it. But that moment sparked this journey that I'm on now that brought me to this video that brought me to prayer that brought me on a completely different path that I never expected, and I'm so grateful for that. So I guess if you're here now reading this, then you too are on this journey where others may doubt you and you may even doubt yourself for a minute, but God has laid his hands on you and nothing can change that.

[@Erthradar]

“Crossing the Red Sea is the pattern of creation, pulling dry land out of water by the descent of the Spirit” Dangit Jonathan you’ve done it again! How did I not notice this‽

[@josephmartin4343]

“How did I not notice this?” Is literally the definition of Jonathan’s channel😂

[@thoughtheglass]

This aspect of Genesis and exodus two are commonly linked in the Psalms.. Eg Ps 74:13-14 appears to be talking about the exodus but as 15 continues we seem to see it linked to creation.

[@grailcountry]

This was your best video to date. This probably deserves further exploration.

[@kamadden]

Beautiful, mind-opening, encouraging.

[@theangryslav9115]

Connecting the "Out of nothing Big bang" with virign birth blew my mind. The virgin birth to them is absurd but the other is not.

[@AJWRAJWR]

Comparing apples and oranges.

[@larryjake7783]

​@@AJWRAJWR no...no it isn't

[@crackwillow7212]

It makes me think of synchronicity, and how those events only seem strange through a perfect coming together of a connected higher meaning. A narratives that define us. Miracles and Meaning. This video really opened my mind. The "top down" explanation was perfectly put. Mind blow. C.s. Lewis books ordered

[@elektrotehnik94]

I might have missed it; C. S. Lewis was the one, who championed the line of thinking these gents are going down on? If yes, which books would that be (maybe 1 or 2?)

[@JukingOx]

Excellent! Funny how in this day in age we have to claw out of a pit of inherited materialism through constant rediscovery of the miracle of “meaning”. Truly enjoyed this discussion. Thank you.

[@poesiforankor6349]

"Grant us one single miracle, and we'll explain the rest" - materialists of old. I think we can say, that no, you can't be granted just one miracle anymore..

[@ajafca7153]

This is one of the hardest Pageau videos I have ever watched. And I thought I was already good at understanding symbolism... I would honestly love more videos on miracles.

[@jorgejungl]

Yes this miracle talk needs more talk

[@WarInHeaven]

This one was mind blowing

[@enchantingamerica2100]

i’m so grateful i found this side of the internet

[@spearshaker7974]

Is that one of those mystical French Canadians I keep hearing about?

[@tostevehunt]

LOL, 💥 🤣

[@HomesteadForALiving]

This will be a nice break from my prepper doom porn...

[@leedufour]

Thanks JP and Jonathan.

[@Harbinger359]

Fantastic explanation; I'd always simply considered miracles as those instances where God shows His mastery over Creation by using the "source code" to break the normal rules of operation. That satisfied me, to be honest, but your explanation of the topic makes the matter of the miraculous much more complete in discussing the intent behind it. I had suspected something of the dichotomy between Old Creation miracles and New Creation miracles, but I hadn't fully developed that idea because it wasn't so much a priority; miracles as a concept never really troubled me greatly. So I thank you for putting this out, because without this discussion I would have a weaker understanding of miracles and, by extension, manifestation as a whole.

[@shari6063]

I have so many thoughts! Just a fantastic conversation!

[@JAMESKOURTIDES]

Loved this conversation.

[@elektrotehnik94]

I have no clue how to make sense of this, but it feels like a good start would feel :D Thank you for helping make the concept of miracles at least a bit less foreign to me

[@williambeaumont1312]

Creation is to us a miracle so it is dismissed as impossible, but to God it is just normal. It is the way he does things, how he puts things together. He has greater skill amd he works super fast so we are dazzled and call it a miracle. Like the explorer who lights a match and the natives think he is a god. He can perform miracles.

[@DustonBStout]

Around 10:00 JP starts bringing in two ways of describing or looking at reality from ‘within experience’ or phenomenologically (Johnathan P’s symbolic patterns) and the Aristotelian (JP’s onto-logic). Pope John Paul II attempted this project articulating it as the ‘philosophy of being’ (Aquinas/Aristotle) vs. the ‘philosophy of consciousness’ (modernity/phenomenology). John Paul II framed these two perspectives as the problem that philosophy has ben working out for the last 1000 years. He rejected the notion that we had to choose between the ancients’ ontology and the modernists turn to subjectivism had ‘progressed’ beyond metaphysics. He attempted a thoughtful unity which acknowledged respective shortcomings of each while incorporating the gains...this resulted in his articulation of both the objective/formal grounding of personhood in Aquinas with the added philosophical layer of the particular subjective experience analyzed from within. JP’s comments so far remind me of how important/helpful it is to consider the ‘whole’ philosophical enterprise as a combination of both ‘top down’ and ‘bottom up’ and this seems to yield a fuller subjective/objective critical realist epistemology.

[@Sokofeather]

Sign me up for your mailing list

[@j.p.marceau5146]

He was such a great pope. I haven't read that from him so far, would you have a suggestion about where I should look? Thanks, great comment, JP

[@DustonBStout]

It’s well put forth via Rocco Buttiglione’s book: Karol Wojtyla: The Thought of the Man Who Became Pope John Paul II www.amazon.com/dp/0802838480/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_uNzOFbTPFTZ2Y Buttiglione frames JPII’s thought very well....in this book the author is both a adept philosophical guide and was himself a personal friend of the late Pope.

[@j.p.marceau5146]

@@DustonBStout Thanks Duston!

[@DustonBStout]

JPII attempted to leverage both the ‘philosophy of being’ and the ‘philosophy of consciousness’ In his most philosophical work ‘the acting person.’ However, apparently its 1st edition english translation from Polish is not accurate and is even misleading...although there is a new critical edition/translation coming out of CUA in 2/20 that i am greatly anticipating: Person and Act and Related Essays (English Critical Edition of the Works of Karol Wojtyla/John Paul II) www.amazon.com/dp/0813233666/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_omAOFbBSHVYQ6 Thanks to Jonathan and JP for a wonderful discussion!

[@PordanBJeterson]

Great discussion! This is a fascinating topic.

[@ChristIsKingPhilosophy]

Great talk, fantastic designs! I think you should continue beautifying christian imagery! Great work!

[@freddyruto3139]

JP is awesome!

[@stevenanderson4515]

This talk is fantastic

[@annoybot]

Following @23:06, Mary assents - this is important. The host aligns, if they say "yes" . . . becoming partners. It's important for Partners (at every level of commissioning), to cultivate humility and renounce even the earliest traces of Pride (a continuous threat), to remember many others can assent to Divine works, at any time. This "assent" is also important in how human freewill participates in the story being-written (as seen from our-actuality of inside-Time), though when the story/circle is completed/finalized and those who were within it are now also ascended from just-within-it, it would be consistent with Revelation to say (outside of Time-unfolding) it always-was so, capable of apprehension by prophets, for example, or others with one foot in each domain (or even one toe, for even a brief moment).

[@tostevehunt]

You put your finger on the ethos I've been visiting ever since I've been listening to JP; for months now. The thing is, I can't /won't leave now! 😅 Fine with me.

[@ClementPoh]

Wow thanks for this! You forestalled my binge of US election coverage!

[@stevennewberg9993]

Utterly brilliant!

[@burgandy57]

At the end of the Matrix Neo sees the matrix for what it is. Not the projected images but the code itself. And because he sees it from the creator's perspective, he is able to mold and manipulate it to his will, therefore his ability to fly. His ability stop bullets.

[@kbeetles]

I am now musing about the many "miraculous" happenings in our own lives? Meetings, a book at the right time, overhearing somebody, a falling together of many, complex events in a way we could not have arranged it better ourselves etc...... .....also wondering about "Satan" being aware of this principle.......hmmmmmmm....selecting emergent phenomena according to his plans....?

[@DawnHub666]

Cool stories guys

[@shotinthedark90]

Regarding the pattern of selection: We need to be careful with "emanation" language, because it suggests that creation itself almost naturally or necessarily issues from God. That blows to hell the coherence of the selection pattern, because the act of creation is itself "free" and "chosen." God is fully satisfied within Himself, the creation is in a sense a superfluous overflow. The incarnation is not necessary to God, only to the creation. The Logos as the image of God is coeternal with the Father and stands in a mutually ecstatic "self-beholding" relationship to Him, which is complete in and of itself. God does not need to create, and so does not exactly "emanate" until He chooses to self-disclose. Christ is the seed of the creation, but the seed need not be sown. Creation is contingent, even though the Logos is necessary to the creation. In order for miracles to make sense, we need to hold on to some kind of understanding that they are "interventions," which is to say free acts of God within the world. Paradoxically, there needs to be a discontinuity with nature in order for there to be a continuity with it.

[@watermelontreeofknowledge8682]

I like your deep thinking, but Christ isn’t the seed of creation. He has always been and always will be, along with both other persons of the Trinity. You have to be careful to not stray into Arianism with philosophy regarding Christ

[@shotinthedark90]

@@watermelontreeofknowledge8682 In my understanding he is both an integral member of the Godhead and the seed of the creation. "All things were made through him and by him and for him." The Logos is God, but is also that which God expresses in the world. "With wisdom he laid the foundations of the world"... and so on. I don't see this as Arianism but I'm open to correction.

[@JBstufff]

This is such an important point. In the conversation between JP, John Vervaeke and Paul Vanderklay on this same topic, John takes JP's position to the paradox you just outlined, which he displays as an absurd proposition. The main question in this whole area is therefore exactly what you said: does there need to be discontinuity for there to be contunuity, and if so, then why.

[@JackPitts]

The way I hear it: "This meeting of the potential at the bottom layer of physics and the emanation of the laws on the potential explains to us why the *prodigal* appears."

[@q1wertz7]

listening to you, I often had to think of so-called "neural networks", something that "works", although the very same people that construe them can't tell how exactly they work. A very fascinating field in which neural networks are employed is the machine recognition and "transcription" of manuscripts, where the images of the words written by human hands (the pattern) are first decomposed in single tiny units and then "translated" in letters from our modern Latin alphabet. Could you devote in the future, perhaps together with JP, a discussion to the symbolism of neural networks? Thank you!

[@mrmadmaxalot]

Have any of you all read "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter? It is easily one of the most underrated works of the 20th century, both in form and substance. The entire theme is this relationship between holism, reductionism, and emergence.

[@kjekelle96]

No but I want to.

[@j.p.marceau5146]

I read it but it was years ago. I would probably get much more out of it if I was to get back to it today...

[@marykochan8962]

Yes, I read it a couple of times. I really like the book of but I think that the conclusion was very unsatisfying. Basically the conclusion was that because we can be aware of paradox there is no objective truth or to put it better, we are unable to discern truth. To me that conclusion made no sense because we can only be aware of paradoxes if we CAN discern truth.

[@j.p.marceau5146]

@iOS SANOS thanks!

[@j.p.marceau5146]

@iOS SANOS I actually went through several such incompleteness theorems in mathematical logic / theoretical CS classes in undergrad. I remember it at a microcosm of the failure of scientistic positivism in general, but I don't remember it providing a way out. Maybe Godel had something I'm not aware of though, we didn't go through his essay...

[@kjekelle96]

You guys should invite Rupert Sheldrake here I think ;)

[@Xanaseb]

Yeah I have thought that many times too

[@m1b175]

Jonathan's statement that emergence of the universe is like the virgin birth of Christ is like something from nothing is interesting, but no one knows in the study of physics that the universe comes from nothing. The big bang is analogous to an exploding black hole, which is something from one state emerging into another state where physics can exist, not something from nothing. Life and nature itself are the miracle in that life can emerge out of entropy using what are probably simple, but as yet unknown rules. This discussion is a rationalization of the miracles of Christianity relative to nature and not really a discussion of miracles and creation as a stand alone topic outside of a theology.

[@aquarius9043]

Nowhere is the big bang seen as a transition. These are just speculations for people who understandably can't wrap their heads around the concepts they are trying to explain. They're not part of the theory, there is no 'before the big bang', as time starts with the big bang. Excuse my argument of authority, but as a physicist (although not a cosmologist nor an astrophysicist), the big bang is not 'an exploding black hole', if that means the Universe 'was a black hole' before its creation.. what does that even mean?!

[@OdinComposer]

Gotta say I'm more of an emergence guy... I'm open to this, but the description of how it isn't good enough. Maybe Vervaeke will make it make sense eventually vOv

[@jamesdewane1642]

When something emerges, how do you know it's there? What recognizes it? What names it? I think these guys are working down this line.

[@lukecronquist6003]

Can you do a video on 'God's Plan'. As you've mentioned before we are either a slave to passions or a servant to God. It's hard to see the meaning in existence which will inevitably repeat over and and over and has already repeated an infinite amount of times.

[@2b-coeur]

? afaik God is bringing all creation out of nothing, and out of evil, and to Himself to endlessly discover & show His infinite glory

[@quentinkumba6746]

The placebo effect can only play the role it does in this argument because it is unexplained, but it is very easy to imagine a mechanism for the placebo effect that is purely physical. Unless it can be shown that the placebo effect cannot, in principle, be explained by a physicalist ‘bottom-up’ theory then this is essentially just a god of the gaps argument. There is nothing special or unusually mysterious about the placebo effect and it is no more miraculous than any other sequence of events for which we do not have a detailed explanation.

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@mirceanicula9198]

I think that the comparsion between the virgin birth and the creation out of nothing just opened my third eye. If only people who take dmt would know about this

[@jorgejungl]

So if you can see the miracle pattern why can’t the miracle pattern be replicated? Did I miss something?

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Jp was dynamite on Verveake . I've listened to it three times.

[@annoybot]

@35:35 the Predator aspect (e.g., carnivores) was not part of Genesis 1, nor the revealed in Isaiah 11:6-7. This is one element in the pattern of Restoration. Also, perhaps a Third Class of Miracles to consider are those beyond (1) instances [healings of particulars] or (2) ascendings [on Earth as it is in Heaven], which (just thinking out loud here) might be transhistoricals, penetrating through (like a laser) or realignments through (consecration-of, by divinity) . . . Time. Christ's consecration-of the bread-and-wine as-redemptive is (a) from modern perspectives a "mystery" but (b) when seen as-consecrating and connecting-with (transhistorically) the Melchizedek lineage . . . from the beginning of stories to the end of stories we participate-in . . . there is much treasure in there perhaps. Additionally, it's a challenge, but consider . . . in a culture where people married at fourteen and where prosperous "offspring" were an indicator of blessing . . . a Rabbi of unparalleled insight, conduct and compassion . . . at thirty years of age . . . not having a wife (as perhaps the most sought-after "catch" imaginable regionally). Historically, this has (outside of any evidence) been labeled celibacy. If by chance, and it would only be safe to discuss such in fiction, the male-and-female Adam of Genesis 1 is also the form of Revelation 22:13, and is also the form at The Last Supper, those progressing-to this form (male and female reintegrated), who are showing pairings with similars, would be another candidate for categorical transhistorical consecration, perhaps.

[@blumythefool777]

Jonathan Pageau, can you make a video on the movie "Chocolat"? i find it to be odd the symbols of this woman protagonist who comes into a conservative catholic town and opens up a chocolate shop full of pagan idols and witchcraft.

[@lisahorne2394]

Jonathan, I think you need to point out to John Vervaeke that Neoplatonism is deeply "woowoo". According to the Stanford Encyclopedia: "Neoplatonic philosophy is a strict form of principle-monism that strives to understand everything on the basis of a single cause that they considered divine, and indiscriminately referred to as “the First”, “the One”, or “the Good”." Vervaeke keeps saying that he can be a secular Neoplatonists, which to me, seems to abandon the very first principle of the movement. Also, do some research into the beliefs of Plotinus - very mystical! And of course it goes back to Plato as well who discussed a "Near Death Experience" in his writing, which I think influenced much of Plato's thought. We could at least ask John how he reconciles abandoning the "woowoo" foundation of the Neoplatonism he espouses.

[@kathleen6156]

Learned a new word, “unicity”

[@tostevehunt]

🤣

[@poesiforankor6349]

A question, though: Why isn't miracles common place? Why doesn't the mechanism of "invoking" higher patterns into your "scattered" manifestation work more consistently? I think this is the frustration with the "patterns of the new creation", they don't seem to manifest other than in myth, while the ones of the old creation we correctly see everyday and take for granted. I have a christian faith and _hope_ , but honestly don't know if resurrection work because I have been denied that in my own life in certain ways. It suggests to me that the governing patterns of this paradigm even goes beyond christianity's profound ideas of them. I don't know, though, can you help me out?

[@j.p.marceau5146]

Hello Lewis touches on it just a bit in the book. Basically, the new creation exists in saints and martyrs. You can see saints and martyrs as the seeds of the kingdom, and it's around them that miracles will appear as they spread the new creation. Lewis thus says that we should be careful to ask to see miracles, because it could be more than we want to bear... Martyrdom and sainthood are not easy...

[@poesiforankor6349]

@@j.p.marceau5146 Thank you. Funny, I've read the book but I think my tradition couldn't translate it because we didn't believe in saints, or rather, everyone already was it - which creates quite a burden on a young believer. Now, I think I can hear you.. so in my position, where I have a certain condition I really have needs to get a miracle in I could try to see it (for what it is) as a training ground for sainthood? "The miracles of new" can await to let even greater things arise in its soil, sort of? In the meantime, of course, maintaining sobrerity in what is going on. "Be careful in what you wish and ask for, it may happen that you'll receive it". Sainthood is indeed different than being successful in general...

[@etc6615]

Hi poesi for ankor 😊 If i may give my humble 2 cents, In my life i know that the holy spirit is “finally” with me when i can do things i normally couldn’t… like forgiving a longtime persistent hurt; being able to accept a love one in spite of and love them anyway; being at peace during my cancer journey (i am the anxious type). I consider these miracles in my life for i know myself well enough to know that the examples that i gave you are not in my nature. I hope this helps. God bless you ❤️🙏🙏🙏🥰

[@molnarandrassandor3448]

Does anyone have the link for the miracle article?

[@slfriend]

🙏🏼❤️🙏🏼❤️MAHALO!!🙏🏼❤️🙏🏼❤️(again!)

[@stevenanderson4515]

Anybody got a link to this guys article

[@stevenanderson4515]

@@alisaruddell3484 thank you

[@Isaxus12]

360p? :/

[@quentinkumba6746]

“The miracles in scripture are not just freak events”. ... but the problem is that there is no good evidence that these were actual events at all. This is the weakness in the whole argument that it assumes that these miracles were real events when there is no good evidence of it.

[@06rtm]

Theres multiple witness testimonies from events thousands of years ago. Thats about all you could expect. Placebo effect is the modern evidence. It shows what can occur when the narrative fits

[@quentinkumba6746]

@@06rtm - the ‘multiple witness testimonies’ are not really witness testimonies at all though, are they, they are stories written by unknown people thousands of years ago, that is not a witness testimony, is it. The placebo effect is not mysterious and it has nothing to do with narrative, it’s simpler than that - feeling good boosts your immune system- that’s it, that’s the placebo effect, no mystery and no narrative required. Just feeling good, caused in this case by a social interaction. Taking a holiday would work as well. No evidence for miracles here, not even a tiny bit of evidence, just none, absolutely nothing. Squat diddly.

[@quentinkumba6746]

@@warb_of_fire - very unconvincing. The problem is that if the ‘evidence’ you produce is good enough then so is the evidence for all the other religions whose evidence is of the same kind and just as good or better. For example Islam and Buddhism. The truth is that in this field there is no evidence good enough to convict anybody of anything, you have chosen to believe for other reasons not because there is convincing evidence. Nothing wrong with that, but stop pretending it’s otherwise.

[@06rtm]

@@quentinkumba6746 When you read history thats all you get. Stories from witnesses passed down and recorded. The account of Jesus actually has more evidence than much of history, simply because much of history relies on single accounts. Placebo isn’t felling good. It isn’t the same as rest. Rest has a scientific explanation for why it benefits our health. It allows our body to repair itself. Placebo is different. You take something that has no ability to improve our health, yet if you believe it does, then it actually does. Its not explained by science. Miracles actually happen. People have unexplainable miraculous recoveries from terminal illnesses.

[@warb_of_fire]

@@quentinkumba6746 With you not providing justification I can just as well say that the evidence would convince anyone looking at it rationally and that you're choosing not to believe it for other reasons. I'm not saying that's the case but your argument isn't particularly compelling. As far as I know historical evidence supports what Islamic literature describes, but that doesn't help its case because Islamic literature is a self-defeating mess. The KZbin channels Acts17Apologetics and Apostate Prophet document a lot of this. Islam claims that Muhammad was a perfect sinless example of how to live, yet Islamic literature describes him as having more wives than the religion permits, a pedophile and possibly a necrophile, spreading his religion through war and forced conversations, buying and selling slaves, and believing that women and black people were of lesser value. The Qu'ran says that if Muhammad dies by having his aorta cut it would prove he was a false prophet, and the Hadith say in multiple places that when he died he felt his aorta being cut. I'm less familiar with Buddhism or Hinduism, so correct me if I'm wrong, but they seems to refer to the truth of their philosophy and the success of their suggested way of living alone as evidence rather than evidence in historical events/texts (whereas Abrahamic religions focus on both, and possible more on the latter). It's hard to prove or disprove what the best way to achieve inner peace is... From the little bit I've read I might critique Buddhism for what it believes the origin of suffering is, and Hinduism with the idea of polytheism, but I need to look into them more.

[@Taiyama2]

If I were to give a bit of affectionate criticism to JP: he needs to work on his speaking voice, particularly the flow of it. He's got a bad habit of repeating this same cadence over and over again, a kind of da da-da-da-da-da with a light, almost questioning lilt on the last one. The constant uniformity makes it easy to zone out and lose attention. I often found my mind wandering off while he spoke and only being dragged back when Jonathan spoke.

[@celienepaul5378]

❤

[@thethricegreat]

4:44 How is reality a fad?

[@havadatequila]

God of the Gaps, Part 1,662,920

[@RichardRohlin]

First.

[@marius7192]

This is repload, I was first. (It was a taken down a bit after the first upload by Jonathan) I posted a funny comment and all for nothing. Jk... :))

[@AJWRAJWR]

Getting tangled in knots just to clutching at straws. These two aren't even on the same page; Jonathan with his symbolic viewpoint, and the young tucker misrepresenting physics to clutch at a literal explanation of miracles. Both with a bigoted way of coming to no definite conclusion.