Symbolism in The Book of Genesis - With Matthieu Pageau

With Matthieu Pageau we discuss symbolism in the creation story told in Genesis and how it relates to consciousness, the problem of self-reference and how true symbolism usually appears in a fractal structure of microcosms and macrocosm.
The problem of science and rationality is that by emphasizing materiality and reason it often struggles with the paradox of self-reference and self-causality, just as it struggles with the problem of the justification for hierarchical structures of value. These two issues are related through the fact of consciousness and self-awareness. Though science struggles to include the consciousness of the viewer in its general calculation, this is something that is done very well in traditional cosmologies through a series of self-replicating patterns which are embedded into each other somewhat like a fractal pattern.
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[@mirceanicula9198]

Everything you say is true. Once you start thinking in this ancient way there everything becomes clear. There is no contradiction and it's all very obvious. And the thing is that this way of understanding reality is infinitely deeper and interesting and engaging than the scientific way or any other way and you start to realize that science is just a particular way of seeing reality that is nested in his more ancient way of understanding. It's actually so liberating to come back to the proper way of seeing things. It's like you become sane again.

[@hezekiahra3416]

I have a whole new respect and admiration for the Bible after discovering these videos.

[@je-freenorman7787]

such a shame The bible is not real The word Bible comes from the place Biblos. Christianity is backwards All religion is the same There is so much more to learn

[@je-freenorman7787]

I made this comment before but, this is the reason I do not like Johnathan P Protecting belief is not what we need

[@je-freenorman7787]

Everything in Christianity, was done before Christianity existed

[@je-freenorman7787]

@royal priest ya, to GET RID of religion

[@kylec8950]

You can never get rid of religion as made was created to worship and follow something. Mind as well follow the truth of the Bible.

[@alexandercamlin8889]

When I start to contemplate these things, I very quickly enter into what I consider an altered state of consciousness, not unlike a psychedelic experience. My sense of the miraculous magnifies and mundanity vanishes. Everything around me becomes more noticeable in its beauty and completion. I wish I could be like that all of the time.

[@quad9363]

I had a similar experience witnessing the recent total solar eclipse here in America.

[@newkingjames1757]

I have to take days off from thinking about this stuff; it's almost too much to handle lol

[@veilofreality]

I've had the same experience and its magnificent, but I wouldn't want if to be like that all the time..it would make functioning in our mundane everyday level of reality very difficult if not impossible.

[@strugglingathome]

An epiphenomenon of the analytical process is a breakdown of rigid structures between the consciousness and the universe. Not unlike a psychedelic experience, this needs to be meted out in doses because meaning must be assimilated. Meaning must inform our action, because of the intense practicality of symbolism, you will be consumed under its weight if you don’t take time. No man can see God and live!

[@je-freenorman7787]

You can contemplate all you want and nothing will ever change Religion will never be real

[@thefrozentexan6218]

On consciousness and Logos/breath/wind: I asked my six year old last night how he knows someone is alive. He said, because they can talk. My mind is racing here...

[@alexanderandro1895]

Your comment sat there for two years waiting to 'blow' my mind as well. lol.

[@thefrozentexan6218]

Alexander Andro it’s a mysterious world 😊

[@emsie3827]

breath/life as inspiration; death is expiration. Creation in Genesis as Inspiration personified/made incarnate. Yup, blows my mind too

[@emsie3827]

Daily bread = sustenance for body for life, and body of Christ integrated into our bodies for eternal life. We in Him; He in us.

[@emsie3827]

@Jarrid Gable Dear Jarrid, my comments were just random examples of the interconnectedness and profound truth of biblical symbolism. Thus, God "breaths" life into Adam; the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is literally "pneumatic"; the Holy Spirit imaged as (inter alia) wind; and inspiration acting on bible writers and readers. Inspiration/expiration - life/death. We think of Inspiration in terms of the creativity of artists (God; bible writers), but it also affects the interpretation of that art (indwelling of Holy Spirit in believers). Creation as the ultimate creativity and inspiration. Bread as basic foodstuff, without which we would die. Eating as symbolic of acceptance within and indwelling: we take the body of Christ and become part of the body of the Church - Christ subsumed in us, we subsumed (incorporated) into body of Christ as Church. Without Christ death has dominion; Christ defeats death/sin through sacrifice of His body, that we accept (eat) to give us eternal life. We in his body (church), he in ours (communion, and indwelling). Interpretation of the Bible can never be exhaustive: it is the gift that keeps on giving. Our (limited) language scratches at the surface of the profundity, yet symbolism expands potentiality of meaning. Thus, speaking in tongues (inspiration of Holy Spirit) in Acts is connected to story of Babel and the confusion of language. Christ came to translate that confusion (sin) and is the Word - the source, the reason, the Why, the beginning and the End. The profundity of all of this is boundless. One day, we will understand, standing before/under Christ. With love, in Christ, your sister Emma

[@praiseyah4046]

Very powerful concepts. Getting back into the garden is having the capabilities to be able to create without shame

[@troyhavok8605]

We still say things like "to shine a light on something," in the abstract sense of showing the truth of something or bringing it to conscious awareness.

[@vicsummers9431]

I am obsessed with Matthieu’s book. I’ve read it twice in two months and collected long lists of words related to heaven, earth, time and space. Stories in the Bible used to be completely incomprehensible to me, but learning the basic categories/language of biblical cosmology has rendered so many of the stories much more understandable. Can’t tell you how grateful I am for this book and also for Jonathan’s wonderful discussions of symbolism in many different realms.

[@Sclunger]

Wow that's great. I plan on reading Mattieu's book because I am really struggling with understanding the Bible. Wondering if you'd be willing to share that list of words or make it public? I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

[@franciscafazzo3460]

I'm hoping for a total makeover it appears that God is destroying my false literal hardcore theological hermeneutic with no love no beauty and people who live horrible lives as Christians I'm longing for this to fill my soul

[@je-freenorman7787]

Youre drunk on religion let your obsessions go, please?

[@je-freenorman7787]

If we wish to learn about Time, sir Sanford Flemming is also a good choice and if we wish to learn English, etymology is the right place to be

[@je-freenorman7787]

@royal priest thanks anyway but, I dont need a primer. There is no way, im doing that bible garbage again, The bible is a book of brainwashing . 100% sure

[@seablue5]

Thank you gentlemen, for taking the time to produce this video.

[@lblack1961]

I am so blessed in spirit and in mind, listening to this video. Thank you!

[@UlfTheWolf]

Great conversation, loved it!

[@evolvingerinb]

So much to take in. I love reading through the comments and answers, great information. Thank you both.

[@je-freenorman7787]

The comment section is pretty much the same , all the time on any religious venture i want, i love, I think, I believe, As I am, in my opinion, i said so pure self worship Boring Religion is backwards

[@MoiLiberty]

@JonathanPageau and @ MathewPageau Phenomenal is a good word to describe this video!

[@sealevelbear]

Matthieu’s book just arrived today, can’t wait to read it!

[@fremen]

8:54 - In the book "The Fractalist: Memoir of a Scientific Maverick" Benoit Mandelbrot, the creator of fractal geometry, talks about the relationship between cosmos and mind

[@artemkarnaukh]

This is one of the best talks on your channel. I would love to see more conversations with your brother .

[@je-freenorman7787]

Vidi-O Killed the Radi-o star

[@71stTrench]

Blessed are the loins that produced and the womb that bore these brothers.

[@nikolabanovic4833]

I have a distinct feeling of watching some netflix fantasy series and thinking (feeling?): "if only the world that I live in was so full of wonder..." 15 hours in, I cannot stop listening. I now have a hope of relearning to see the wonder in the world. Thank you from the botton of my heart.

[@je-freenorman7787]

The world we live in in full of wonder the problem is religion Its not reality and far too many people follow it

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

God this is just pure genius! Thank you for everything ❤

[@je-freenorman7787]

its rudimentary, youre just confused

[@BasFolmer]

Man this is great thanks so much! Funnily enough, yesterday night I had the urge to study more about Genesis and I took all the related books off my shelf. This is going to be really useful for learning more about Genesis!

[@je-freenorman7787]

again the reason why I do not like Johnathan P. Far too much protection for religious belief. While he may have put in some time in study, morality is never subjective and we do not need religion and should not be protecting it. he makes far too many assumptions and supports too many egos with them

[@redberries8039]

'human consciousness is part of that emergent phenomena' ........ this is so on-point for me. It works in the microcosm/macrocosm framework as God gave order to chaos through Genesis, man also gives order to chaos through perception [both eye and ear]. This can be taken quite literally in the case of man, there is no need for metaphor. If we look upon an objective/real world object that lacks order, our consciousness will generate additional order in the perception of that object. Simply bearing witness to chaos results in order. This is the case for all life, it's exciting that it's outlined in Genesis. [.......been on my mind for years, it's so good to hear it from another source]

[@redberries8039]

...reading this over I can see how it might not make any sense to anyone coming to it cold ...apologies :)

[@johnsuper8022]

Is that similar to Quantum physics?

[@koala1234ish]

Chaos, potential and the attention and understanding bringing things into being in a net of meanings makes me think of Quantum mechanics too. But to my understanding QM doesn't really seriously consider what the true properties of the "observer" must be, the observer is more axiomatic and (thought to be) self-explanatory. An information gatherer... but what kind exactly, what it means to observe... I feel the order imposed on quantum events by an observer is an open question that is screaming for explanation.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Have you read the Philokalia? I think you'd like the glossary - how they broke down concepts like intelligence, reason, and intellect.

[@redberries8039]

@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 It's been on my radar just recently. I certainly will be reading it. cheers for the heads-up

[@psyfiles7351]

Fascinating I just bought Matthiews’ book, I’d love to hear a series on the book!

[@johnsuper8022]

The story of Ham seeing his father Noah naked and telling his brothers about would be a good one for you to talk about.

[@benjaminblakley9569]

John Super Matthieu covers it in the book

[@maurice5402]

I think Jonathan also covered it in a recent q & a. Very early on in the second most recent one if I remember correctly.

[@alancummins9312]

🤯🤯🤯 this is explosive!!!! Thank you for sharing. Absolutely fascinating. May God bess you both.

[@POVLA]

Thank you this discussion!

[@Tullerman]

I'm in awe of your understanding of this stuff

[@ribeirovolantes7773]

Amazing channel. Keep on the work. Love from Brazil.

[@YHShinVH]

One thing that came to mind when thinking about the Garden of Eden story was the role that shame and fear plays in the psyche of the characters. When Adam and Eve eat the fruit, they begin to introduce negative emotions into the universe like shame, evidenced by how they hide themselves from God in fear of punishment for disobeying him. Could it be that the introduction of these emotions is what caused the negative aspect of reality to be born, and through it the knowledge of good and evil? Because the universe did not know evil and was good, the act of disobeying god and introducing a negative meaning to the experience of reality meant that reality itself had to readjust to account for this new knowledge gained, just like how you mentioned how unforseen events like divorce can rearrange our understanding of the world and change our perception and approach towards life. The very earth itself rebels against man to reflect his experience of reality, showing how much power free will of thought, emotion, and action actually has in shaping the quantum soup of infinite possibilities we call the cosmos.

[@celienepaul5378]

My breath and spirit thank you both ♥

[@wyrd_wyrm]

Seriously need to get him on the show some more... People need to hear more of his insights and how they connect to our world.

[@je-freenorman7787]

We need to get rid of religion christianity is not real its not our true history

[@focusedvegetable3655]

They are both so thoughtful but I have a thing for Matthew. I really love his book

[@ThiagoCT9]

Thank you guys, you just blew my mind away! Never thought of Genesis this way, but it makes so much sense now...

[@je-freenorman7787]

The problem is, the bible is brainwashing and not real

[@Lahbreca]

Wow, that was a lot to consume! I will surely have to watch this again. ☺

[@OneLine122]

Very interesting, the linking of naked with primal and chaos. I never thought about it. I would add this fluidity is what you could call emotions. Even in the beginning, see, there are emotions, and the word, gives meaning to them, puts them into action. Not sure that the serpent is about something you can't name though, he is some naked temptation, sexual in that context, since it is the tree of life. So possibly the original plan was not to reproduce. Adam could name things, but not create them. But he did, so he used his free will, or his will became free, so he knew bad, and therefore good. Still works with the clothing and law analogy. It was to hide the temptation and make following the law easier to follow. Also, one thing about that self-referential loop. It is more a trap than particularly useful. It is like you said, things have been redefined and not they are cut off from experience, so people believe in empty words, or unreal ideas. This is what is called a delusion. Your solution to that, is to relink to experience, which is the correct thing to do, and I would add what science always tried to do. It is when people stop believing they can achieve truth, that they fall into solipsism.

[@nahomsolomon5354]

Thank you very much! I thank God for you! I hope I will continue to do so!

[@gregjross]

a decade ago I read the book: GEB, Godel, Escher, Bach, the Eternal Golden Braid which to me basically tried to convince me that consciousness was an emerging phenomenon. That struck me as rather pantheistic. This video makes me think back to it and realize that it is a great concept if only it would assume Mind is above Matter. but even that is probably too simplistic. it's the post fall grappling with the embodiment problem. anyway, great video!

[@notloki3377]

Normally, I can't stand the work of Rousseau.. but what you said about the meaning of being clothed in the story of Genesis reminded me of his quote: "man is born naked but is everywhere in chains"

[@AntonVeliTajan]

Keep up that work, guys! I just discovered your channel. And for me, your work might be more relevant than Jordan Petersons lectures on the (psychological significance of the) Bible.

[@evangelosgeronicolas2385]

After my first listening: Galileo was an engineer; this is why machines are the model of his study of nature, and from that we can get a glimpse of what lies behind his notions of objectivity and subjectivity. A machine is something artificial which can work on its own. So, we shouldn't be surprised if the objective world of science looks more artificial and less natural, and we have the idea that we are able to talk about a world in which there is no consciousness there at all! After the Galilean dichotomy between subject and object, philosophy tried to fill the gap through epistemology: how it is possible for us to know the objective world, and what can we hope to know about the objective world. It is not an accident that epistemology makes its appearance right after Galileo (with Descartes). Philosophy still works on the question of the justification of an objective empirical mathematical knowledge of the world.

[@mariohleb1980]

Brave subject to cover, well done

[@max6759]

Excellent Men, Thank you.

[@jeremyfirth]

I Am A Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter (as well as his earlier book, "Godel, Escher, Bach") is a great place to explore these ideas further.

[@franco3909]

It’s true!, I went unconscious exactly after 20 minutes of holding my breath! 😵

[@illfightforfreedom2954]

Haha

[@arthurrange3892]

This was amazing!

[@mcardillo77]

Human reason as mediator draws out of the earth the yearning potential of matter. “The creation groans in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed”. There’s a waiting passion not unlike the bride of christ to consummate the ultimate relationship and meaning and being Thanks. Great stuff!

[@RichelleSaraco]

What you are doing here is wonderful. This will help many grow. Anyone who has a blocked entity between the mind, body, spirit, and struggle naturally hearing and speaking to and from God will gain some real tangible facts and uses. Those who do have a open relationship with our creator through the living logos, prayer, and faith; where the real consciousness or awareness level begins, grows and flourishes -will find a new found clarity of what they were already coming to know and experience. However, in hopes that every person can be touched by Grace, I do wonder now how do you plan to encourage the one who has yet to be one of those whom have been blessed to recognize Gods Grace and come to faith and receive the natural gifts and hunger and ability to receive, absorb, embrace and implement more in-depth knowledge and teachings of his logos?

[@newkingjames1757]

Can you make a video about the symbolism of Angels and how they fit into the Cosmos?

[@attrix09]

Second that notion!

[@newkingjames1757]

Jonathan Pageau I'm excited! Can't wait

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Angels are not symbols, except perhaps the attempts to describe them by those who encountered their strange visage. Watch The Lord of Spirits podcast on Ancient Faith if you haven't already.

[@mjb91]

Where can we read more about Matthieu's upcoming book and where can we purchase it when it's published?

[@benjaminblakley9569]

M. Black it is available on Amazon

[@RollOut82]

it's now available! I got my copy on Amazon. It's amazing... a must read

[@zahiallam4261]

This is amazing

[@colinpaulturner]

Adam - humankind - is the isthmus (barzakh) between the heavens and the earth, a union of the spiritual with the material, a microcosm of both heaven and earth, and a reflection of the macroanthropos, the 'universal being'. There are so many convergences between the Genesis symbolism in 'The Language of Creation' and the connections/correspondences between the domains of mulk and malakut in Muslim cosmology. It would be great if we could have a broader discussion on this, Jonathan.

[@claycon]

Good stuff!

[@jeremyfirth]

Here's an interesting related definition from the 1828 Edition of Webster's Dictionary. (I often find it useful to look up words in that dictionary to get a more "traditional" definition of a word than the current year dictionary provides). The word "redress" as a verb is defined as "To set right; to amend". Another definition: "To remedy; to repair; to relieve from". One more definition: "To ease; to relieve". All of these definitions fit with your description of the concept of "dressing" or "clothing" in the Bible.

[@sebastianhelm1718]

Damn guys. That actually happens when you have gone through a period, where somebody else manipulates i.e. gaslights you. You lose the ability to make sense out of your experience and what you experience then is propably akin to The Fall. Interestingly, back then when this happened my thoughts began to gravitate towards this symbolism and I remember to have circled around the Adam and Eve topic on more than one single occasion, I didn't grew up in a Christian household though and except those incarnations in pop media and literature had no contact with that world.

[@newkingjames1757]

I absolutely love these videos.

[@hanskallafrasonen]

I have a feeling that they're rather rare and therefore valuable beyond measure almost

[@je-freenorman7787]

and now we see how selfish you are, from Christianity

[@newkingjames1757]

@@je-freenorman7787 what?

[@je-freenorman7787]

@@newkingjames1757 sorry to point that out. I know how much people cherrish their own beliefs but, all we ever get is, self worship. I think, I love, I want, I believe, I am, I said, in my opinion. Me, myself and I, is the only Christian trinity

[@newkingjames1757]

@@je-freenorman7787 What are you talking about? Are you sure you're responding to the right person? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[@greatmomentsofopera7170]

Fantastic as ever. “Our KZbin channel”? So does Matthieu have input behind he scenes?

[@tensevo]

This is so bloody clever.

[@sennewam]

Very very few people can speak the symbolic and understand it. When I first could see Logos I could not speak it. Thank you for showing the way.

[@goran586]

A problem with stories like Genesis is that we tend to perceive it as a specific event at the dawn of time while it actually describes an ongoing process. The problem for Adam (and humanity) is not that he opposed the will of God and "fell" into sin. The problem for Adam (humanity) is that he does not understand why he must oppose the will of God. It is the inherent problem of an evolving self-referencing system like the consciousness. It must constantly try to transcend its current incomplete understanding of itself in order to reach a new incomplete understanding of itself. I.e. to find understanding by doing experiments in self-management that often end up in opposition and disobedience to an already genetically established "perfect" orientation that successfully helped him to survive during millions of years.

[@goran586]

Thanks for your answer. I have ordered your book and looking forward to read it.

[@christywhitby9395]

Merci Matthieu et Jonathon! I look forward to Matthieu's book and future video content. Is there a reference available which you recommend that captures these explanations of common Biblical symbolism? Thank you both again

[@christywhitby9395]

Jonathan Pageau Thank you for your responses. What version of the Bible do you recommend/prefer?

[@UserName-rf5zs]

The Urantia papers seemed to attempt agreement between tradition & science, causing skeptics of both schools to dismiss the papers as fancy. It is a mistake to dismiss the papers however because they hold knowledge that can fill in gaps in the knowledge of the seeker, our connect two ideas to each other.

[@nektulosnewbie]

I'm trying to follow what you're saying, but the way you say thing combined with my TMD/neck problems makes it hard for me to follow, but what you're saying meshes with what I've been thinking about with regard to the conscious self and how it relates to the body and the rest of the mind. It's effectively an individual within an individual, separate and yet one with the rest. Something which I find echoes the Nature of Christ being fully man and fully God (and the struggle of Orthodoxy to overcome other dysfunctional views mirroring the trouble we have at grasping that there's more to us than just "us", the person peering out of ones eyes reading these words). The one dysfunctional view is the Gnostic one, and I think it's one that is now predominant and at the heart of the problem things like Identity Politics and the Transexual issue, where the rest of the mind if ignored and the body reduced to a vehicle that can be used and misused by the conscious self as it sees fit, even if that use isn't in the best interest of the entire individual or the conscious self in the end. Like how Gnostics would swing to one extreme or another, hating the material world and withdrawing from it to the point of nihilism or declaring all mores and limitations lies and doing whatever they want that resulted in anti-natalism and sexual hedonists and here we are with the Puritanical strains of feminism and other ideologies clashing with the the hedonistic ones, how individual is supreme and no one has the right to interfere with anyone over whatever they do, and yet everyone must conform to their racial or ethic background and not become an Uncle Tom. The paradox in failing to recognize our place within ourselves we assume we are all there is to it, and yet become blind to the parts of us that give the conscious self its motivations that results in susceptibility to the darker aspects of our psyche. To put a Biblical spin on it, we have forgotten to test the spirits, if only the spirits within us.

[@JonathanPageau]

The swing you mention in the Gnostic vision is exactly right. I have been saying for years now that the modern wold in its turning against Christianity, is a form of de-incarnation and so it swings between materialism and a form of spiritism.

[@BookOfMorman]

If Matthieu didn't have glasses on, I'd mix you guys up lol great video!!

[@danielfrench9542]

I can see an application of much if what you have been sharing on Christ and hierarchy with respect to a basic misunderstanding in liberal theology. Before ordination I used to work in computer science and there is s difference in logic between a binary Exclusive OR operation and a logical AND operation. Liberals often speak of Christ as either on top of the hierarchy OR at the bottom. Namely, He is therefore either an “oppressor” or “subjected”, etc, etc. This has that splitting effect seen in the Marxist dialectic of victimhood - the world is either “them” or”us”. But what you have reminded us Christ is both the crown and the body of creation, the top of hierarchy AND its base. He offers a special kind of unity. Also as you said He came not overthrown the Romans but to transform them. He does this by being both the top and totality of the pyramid. Liberal theology seems to fail to absorb this so sees the Church in opposition to its master, and so their utopian super-inclusive project is in Orwellian style always at War.

[@mannytps9986]

Amazing comment 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Very astute.

[@spearofsolomon]

Hello Messieurs Pageau! Great as always to listen to another illuminating conversation. I've been listening to many of your videos and look forward to reading Matthieu's book as well. Here are some questions that have been percolating for me regarding Symbolism. I pray you will excuse me for asking the first question in the most antagonistic way possible for clarity. 1. Let's say that Symbolism, whatever else it may entail, involves understanding a story by understanding concepts in a pre-materialist way. Ok, great. Now I can understand more of what, for example, the book of Genesis means. So what? What does understanding the story in a pre-materialist way get me and why should I care about that? I only ask because I have had troubling articulating the answer to my own friends. 2. When you say "being is hierarchical" I understand you to mean (at least) that some ways of being are better than other ways of being. You also talk about layers of symbolism - for example, how the clothing is to the person as laws are to the society. Is that also a hierarchy, and if so is that also related to the hierarchy of being? Or is that just a layering based on scale? 3. Regarding the layering based on scale, it seems that there are many scales to consider. For example, your own life can be divided into different time scales: this second, this minute, this hour, this day, this "season", childhood, adulthood, sagehood, the entire life. Then you can consider men at different scales: the individual, the family, the community, the city, the state, the country, the continent, the world. When we are looking to apply a symbolic story to "real life," how can we be sure at which scales the story has meaning? Or is the contention something like: these symbols are manifestations of the resonances that our minds find inherently meaningful and comprehensible: they are the _ways_ in which we derive meaning at _any_ scale? 4. You touched on an interpretation of the snake in this video that I had never considered: the snake being "naked" in some fundamental way. It seems stripped of even the adornments of other animals, with no limbs or hair. It's like a spine with a mouth that just wriggles around and eats things. I didn't understand why it was symbolically important for the snake to be naked though, especially since as a deceiver the snake is definitely hiding things. Also, I've never been able to make heads or tails of the fact that the snake was fundamentally correct about Adam and Eve not dying because they ate the fruit. I assume this hinges on a symbolic understanding of death that I'm not picking up on. Thoughts? 5. How would you symbolically interpret the Tree of Life and its place in the story of the exodus from the Garden? What is the relation of Jesus to the Tree of Life? 6. In re-interpreting religion through a new lens, I've been taking a closer look at Buddhism as well. It seems to me that many of the questions of self-transformation, and many of the same techniques of using truth and love for self-transformation and for ceasing self-deception are echoed in Buddhism. I'm still trying to flesh out where the fundamental axioms may differ between, say, a symbolic understanding of Biblical scripture and Buddhist philosophy/practice. I know that you have a deeper insight into the Biblical side; do you have any cross-referential insight to give?

[@spearofsolomon]

#3: I hope you guys can take some time in upcoming videos to discuss ways in which a symbolic worldview gives predictive power, dominion, and a deeper insight into reality. Or to say that another way, how a symbolic worldview can give rise to action and not just interpretation of past actions.

[@spearofsolomon]

#2: Ok. The nested microcosms are the fractal/fractionated pattern you were talking about in the video, yes?

[@spearofsolomon]

#4: Ooh, that's pretty ingenious of them. They built increasing truth right into the definition of "progress" or "ascending the mountain"? Or are you saying that humans inherently conceive of increasing order as also increasing truth - that those things are the same or closely tied together?

[@valeriekim1410]

Of course, we have what we speak. The spoken word in key. We are creators with our words.

[@wikkidperson]

Watching your videos really makes on speculate as to how you two would have gotten along/not got along growing up. What roles the two of you played as a pair of brother. (I never had a brother)

[@DoctorLazertron]

Clothing is extreme at the scale of our body parts. Man, that kind of opened it up a little.

[@valeriekim1410]

So reframing is essential to sanity. When we take in information that doesn’t compute, the ability to give the information a different meaning is a skill to reset the mind back to balance.

[@adamkadmon2730]

you should interview David Chaim Smith about this subject. You would be a great interviewer for that

[@divinechemechanical]

If I understood correctly, one interesting comment made towards the end pointed towards the idea of everyday experience functioning as a sort of baseline experience for understanding or approaching symbolism. I am curious about how the increasing immersion in the "daily digital experience" might deeply wound this baseline experience of non-digital reality. Much of the upcoming generations' worldview is/will be so shaped and filtered by media-tech simulated environments and interactions that the "analog world" will no longer ground/generate future worldviews. How might the above perspective on symbolism impact, speak to, or relate to these increasingly digital worldviews?

[@jasonroberts2249]

Re: the loop of self-reference, Advaita Vedanta has examined this to no end. Ramana Maharshi for example. There is a lot of analogically similarity between the Fall from Eden, where we fell ‘away from ourselves’ and God, and the Vedantic concept of Maya.

[@goran586]

As they are speaking about Adam (humankind) as a mediator between heaven and earth a word from C.G. Jung comes to mind: ".... the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being"

[@jonasiemsen7098]

Hello Jonathan, wonderful video. Again you two are leaving me feeling slightly uncomfortable but improved immensely. Great conversation between your brother and you. You complement each other very well. I wish I could discuss the content, but my head is smoking up in flames after your revelations about breath and soul.

[@basketweaver1144]

That makes a lot of sense, because modern people think of air as a fluid. But the people of the past would see wind and breath as an invisible force, it's much more mystical and God-like that way.

[@ddonovan2965]

Thank you for this. I'm sure I don't get most of what is being said here, and maybe my conclusions don't apply but I don't feel as strange as I used to when I thought of my soul as heaven and my heart earth...or to 'know' as a Catholic in faith that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist has become our Food. And by it transforms us into Himself, little by little, so that as St Paul said, "It is no longer I but Christ Who lives in me." I always thought of this as completely rational but above reason since it is revelation. But now at least I can say that all of creation tells this story and backs it up even though I can't through my words. :)

[@wasumyon6147]

Intro reminds me of Hofstadter's "I am a strange loop" and "Godel, Escher, Bach"

[@dang5469]

Francis Schaeffer used a model in his apologetics known as "upper storey" and "lower storey". I think this is the same as the traditional cosmology in the Bible and elucidated by Matthieu known as 'heaven' and 'earth'.

[@watermelonlalala]

This discussion makes me think of the Mandaeans who consider John the Baptist one of their founders. They call water a form of light. Would be interesting to know what they think of the eye and "the word" and all that.

[@Robbya10]

Have you read the old kingdom series by Garth nix? If you haven't, I really want to suggest you read sabriel, and do a symbolic analysis. About 6 months ago I started writing a book I'm going to call "I forgot what it's called". It's about the concept that ideas are far bigger than we can comprehend some times. Using a word is like taking a picture of the world, its a simulation of the thing itself and can lose resolution when the lens isn't set up right.

[@BooBarr]

Does Matthieu have any plans to start uploading videos to his own youtube channel? I've subbed to it in case he ever does.

[@BooBarr]

Hey Matthieu, I'm looking forward to your book! Just wanted to also say that your comment on the original Hebrew word for "shrewd" sharing a root with "naked" has inspired me to learn and study the original Hebrew texts. It just seems like such a critical thing to know and yet it's entirely lost from the Greek translations onward.

[@ryanhastings5367]

Jonathan, I played that pass out game when I was a kid as well. You would breathe in and our then your friend would push on your chest until you passed out. I am surprised I am still alive from the stupid things I did when I was younger!

[@JohnChampagne]

A policy of charging fees to industries when they emit pollution, deplete resources or disturb / destroy wildlife habitat will motivate efforts to reduce harmful impacts. It will embody in practice a respect for Truth, because it will cause prices to show *more honestly* all the costs of production. If the fee is made sufficiently high for various kinds of impact on the environment, then efforts by industry to limit impacts will bring an overall result wherein economic activity is constrained within limits that most people think are acceptable. The shared right of the people to define overall limits to pollution and other harmful impacts will be manifest in reality. (A system of random polls can reveal what amount of impact would be considered acceptable by most people. Fees can be adjusted, or the number of emissions / extraction permits issued for sale at auction can be adjusted, accordingly.) A society 'eats' people *and* natural resources. A system of fees (or a requirement to buy permits at auction) can limit the amount of the natural environment that the society eats. A commitment to Fairness as a primary value will result in sharing of proceeds from environmental impact fees to all people. Abject poverty will be eliminated. The Fee-and-Dividend policy respects Truth *and* Fairness as primary values. It would, when properly combined with a survey process that gives survey respondents time to consult expert opinion and reflect on questions about acceptable limits regarding environmental impacts, result in the actions of the constituents of society (individuals and corporations) aligning with what is healthy for the society (just as the molecules in the hand are constrained by their being part of the cells of the hand). The self-referential or fractal nature of the universe can be seen in the result of an environmental impact fee: The policy will cause a reduction of harm to the environment and will help to maintain a healthy ecological balance. This is what a nervous system does. It reduces harm to the organism and helps to maintain a healthy balance or homeostasis.

[@mirceanicula9198]

Johnathan, I know that it might not be so much relevant to you but you should try a video game like Dark Souls or Elden Ring. It has so much of this exact structure and Symbolism that you are describing and perhaps it would be interesting for your audience to show that in a video. I always had this notion and intuition that there's a strong bond between the Bible and a video game like Dark Souls but by watching more of your videos that similarity in structure is becoming more and more clear. To point just to one of these similarities, Dark Souls is exactly about this descent into the underworld, the caverns, dungeons, the depths and also ascending to the highest plane where the Light is more and more present. The map of the game itself has this spiral structure that is interpenetrated and connected in unexpected but meaningful ways. If you have time you should check it out. It's very impressive.

[@melaniereeder2349]

I can track this conversation but then I’m curious about the implications of this worldview on the message of the Bible and the role it plays in how I should live.

[@SteauaBucuresti]

Jonathan. You will probably not read this post. However Much of what you and Matthieu are saying is actually embodied in Brancusi artworks. Especially an artwork called "The Infinite Column". The Column is meant to connect heaven and earth by bring them closer to each other. And you can see that the column is made in parts equally matchning eachother. Meaning that the Column in itself is microcosmos of heaven and earth. And if you want go ever deeper and try to understand it from a mentally perspective then you can describe it as a communication between the conciousness and subconciosness. Or more specically to make an awareness by emphasizing a deep understanding that in order to create balance and harmony in your individual life you need grasp the wholeness of phenomenon : The physical and the metaphysical, chaos and order. To understand that your mind is a manifestation of both Self-Affirmation and Self-doubt. Heaven and earth.

[@JonathanPageau]

For sure Brancusi, who was an Orthodox Christian, had much intuition as to the deep patterns of being. The difficulty is that in the end, the pillars he created ended being representations of cosmic pillars and not actual cosmic pillars. They do not participate in grounding the shape of the world as a traditionally built church does, or that totems or crosses, or flagpoles does. No one processes around Brancusi's column.

[@SteauaBucuresti]

Of course it´s a only a representation of being. Hence why people are praying in front of the cross and not in front of Brancusi works. However though. The same thought pattern you witness in Genesis can also be seen in many of the tablets carved by Thracian tribes which were much of the wooden art works tend to stem from. The Dacians for instance had exactly same worldview as orthodox christians which is known through great thinkers like Deceneu. Especially in how humans should relate themselves psychological with the material world with a strong inclination towards existential suffering through detachment from the natural universe. They saw that as mentally self-healing: to restore your sanity one must master it´s subconscious. And Orthodox christiany is the only religion that has not departed itself from those distinguished patterns that emphasize on bringing up to the surface the center of being. I believe sincerly that what those pattern are telling us has to do alot with not letting your mind being led totally by reason and rationalism. Otherwise your self-consciousness can block you from reaching the metaphysical realm where center of being exists. Where God lives. Those patterns has existed since beginning of our human existence. Our ancestors knew what kind of thoughts can lead individuals to total chaos, to self destruction yet in the name of comfort and commodity we have rejected those patterns fully and continue to do so.

[@edgarcliett7126]

My friend allowed me to use his tablet to watch this video... I spent 10 years in prison and came to this same understanding of truth. I'm home now and my church family is having a difficult time receiving this understanding because of materialism.

[@edgarcliett7126]

I'm Donald

[@maurice5402]

How are things now?

[@watcherofthewest8597]

I feel like there were a lot of esoteric discussions around the dinner table back in the day

[@LordSplittawig]

Why is it that the axiom of "As Above, So Below" is considered to be "satanic" when the fractal nature of reality is self-evident? There's a statement I've seen in meme form which goes, "The strongest evidence of the fractal nature of our universe is the fact that people come out of other people." It's kind of a weaker, one-dimensional example, but it's true. I think of the fractal nature as more of a matching of patterns between smaller and larger pictures, so that patterns which exist on one level match those that exist on higher levels. For example, the collective human mind is really like the individual human mind; to battle against an idea in my own mind is to battle against that same idea across the entire human collective. I see the human collective mind as something like a neural network in which all individual minds are like neurons in a brain; like nodes in a network. This is just one of the revelations I've experienced, and it's a good one, I think. "As Above, So Below" is not "satanic"; it's Truth, and there is no Truth in Satan. Truth and Satan are mutually exclusive in my understanding, just as Truth and Christ are synonymous. This is a major item of understanding that I think modern Christians desperately need. Otherwise, they might continue burning books or doing other foolish things that are exemplary of being against God in the name of God. Essentially, I took the hand of Truth and it led me away from the church; and I think that it doesn't bode well for the institution of church at all. It's a terrible that fact that, in many cases, Truth isn't allowed in churches. Also problematic of Christianity is the erroneous belief that Truth can only come from Christianity, as if the Truth from the mouth of a Hindu person - or even an atheist, for that matter - is somehow less valuable than from so-called "Christians". It doesn't matter to me at all what someone's background is; if they speak Truth to me, then I will value it all the same. I could write pages and pages explaining why I feel this way, but it's True that if I woke up tomorrow and discovered that every church upon the face of the earth had crumbled to dust, then I wouldn't lose a moment's peace of mind over it. Maybe if they had given me the fulfilment I needed and was given in spite of them, then I would feel differently. "Truth does not pay homage to any society, ancient or modern. Society has to pay homage to Truth or die." - Swami Vivekananda Christianity desperately needs to understand the concept of "Truth or die" before it's too late. A great example of this problem is that the vast majority of Christians have no clue whatsoever about what the Logos is. When I mention the Logos to them, it's as if I'm speaking a foreign language - I guess it's all Greek to them. 🤣🤣🤣 Christianity is very much plagued by emptiness in my experience, and I had many, many years of experiencing that emptiness before fulfillment was granted to me; when it was granted to me, I left the church permanently. They keep going back in weekly, ritualistic cycles to fill the void inside which they themselves perpetuate, and it's a sickening cycle.

[@overcamehim]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is the Self-referencing loop your talking about. Genesis 1 when God says, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. Yes, you are correct that Adam lost his first place. That is why God had to come to earth in the form of man, the Second Adam as Paul says, to restore or reinstitute God's original plan for mankind. In God's plan of salvation, Jesus Christ becomes the Mediator, the High Priest, if you will between man and God. The book of Hebrews goes into this in depth. In Genesis 3:15, God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus is revealed in verse 21, you see God's institution of the blood sacrifice with the killing of animals to provide covering for man's nakedness. Then in Exodus, God gives commandments which codifies man's sinful nature. But of course, man can't keep the law which is the whole point of us needing a way to escape death that sin brings. Hence, the need for God in the form of man to die and be resurrected as the Second Adam, without sin, thereby restoring us to our original state in the garden. But to take on the nature of Christ, we have to be reborn because flesh and blood can't live in a spiritual Kingdom. We can't do anything to get into the Kingdom except believe in our hearts and say with our words that God came in the flesh, died on a Roman instrument of execution, was buried and rose from the dead to restore life and eternal life to dead men. In the working of our redemption, we are given faith by God's grace so that we may, of our own accord, freely acquiesce to God's plan of salvation so that no man can say that he did anything to merit forgiveness. Shalom in Jesus.

[@mooshmillz]

alittlestrength well that was a concise description of everything I believe. Awesome

[@3VLN]

opfff 10 mins in guys and im already going insane !

[@brigidcox2046]

Will you do a video on why Abraham didn't want Issac to marry native from his homeland ie a foreigner? Why was Rebecca the only one for Issac?

[@samueldheyliger]

Yes!

[@TheBibleisArt]

Regarding eating, James Jordan notes in Revelation where it says that God will spit them out of his mouth, "Why were we in there in the first place?" Because God consumes us, takes us into himself as sacrifices.

[@mikebaker2436]

32:00 The Hebrew word here in Genesis 3 is Arum which is prudent (and we know it means prudent because it appears frequently in Proverbs and Job with context making the meaning quite clear.) Arum is prudent/astute. Arom is naked. Now, someone could say that since vowel sounds weren't written originally in Semitic languages that Genesis 3:1 was originally Arom and not Arum... but then why does the Septuagint render this word as φρονιμώτατος (crafty, clever, discreet)? I can find no Fathers that talk of this descriptive word as "naked". Where is this coming from? I especially don't understand why it is necessary because the word "Arum" (and its Septuagint equivalent) for subtle, prudent, or discreet gets you to the place that your point wants to go without ignoring what the text actually says. One could argue that the words have the same semetic root (prudence being a kind of spiritual nakedness), but the risk for etymological fallacy is quite high... and, again, unnecessary because the word "subtle, discreet" as it has always been understood going back to the second tenple period still makes your point and in a more powerfully metaphysical way than saying it is "naked". I think it undermines your valid point that we need to understand the ancient meaning of words but then use a different word than what is in the text that we have without explaining why you are doing that. We also should consult what the author of the Hymn of Paradise thought of this word in Genesis 3:1. St. Ephraim clearly takes the Septuagint meaning in its most obvious sense as "astute": "Having spoken of their naked state--which, because it was adorned with a heavenly raiment, was not shameful--Scripture turns to write about the astuteness of the serpent, as follows: "And the serpent was more astute than all the other wild animals that the Lord had made. " [ Gen. 3:1a ] Now even though it was astute, it was only more astute than the dumb animals which are under the control of mankind: it had not yet, just by reason of its having surpassed the level of animals in its astuteness, been raised to the level of mankind. That irrational creature was only more astute than the cattle; that mindless serpent was only more crafty than other animals. For it is clear that the serpent did not have a human mind, seeing that it did not possess human wisdom; whereas Adam, who surpassed the serpent in the way he was fashioned, by having a soul and an intellect, by his glory and by his location, clearly also infinitely surpassed the serpent in astuteness. For Adam, who had been set in authority and control over animals, was wiser than all the animals, and he who gave names to them all was certainly more astute than them all. For just as Israel could not look upon the face of Moses, [ [Exod. 34:33-35] ] neither were the animals able to look upon the radiance of Adam and Eve: at the time when they received names from him they passed in front of Adam with their eyes down, since their eyes were incapable of taking in his glory. So even though the serpent was more astute than the other animals, compared to Adam and Eve, who had authority over animals, it was foolish. "Having spoken of the serpent's astuteness, it turns to describe how the deceitful one came to Eve, as follows: "And the serpent said to the woman, 'Did God really tell you not to eat of any of the trees of Paradise?'" [ Gen. 3:1b ] On the matter of the serpent's words: either Adam knew the serpent's own language, or Satan spoke through it; or the serpent asked the question mentally, and speech was granted it, or Satan asked God that speech should temporarily be granted to the serpent." -St. Ephraim the Syrian Commentaries on Genesis

[@MatPentz]

Still waiting for an analysis of Judah and Tamar... did I miss it?

[@larrylhanson]

Over-complicating simple things doesn’t get us closer to them, it aims beyond the mark and infinitely aside. One of many problems with mainstream Christian intellectualism is a thirst for trying to define things that have either intentionally not yet been clarified by God (and likely won’t be in this life) or those that have actually been clarified by revelation, but we have not accepted and digested true sources of knowledge that we have already been given. It’s fun to hypothesize about a litany of principles, but talking in circles about intellectual angles that have increasingly tenuous connections to revealed truth is a hobby that obfuscates the simplicity of the Gospel and only serves to fulfill Paul’s warning that we not be “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

[@CanadianVacations]

Thank you so much, the simple truth for salvation is what matters. The only definition of energy and cosmology and love we need is: If you love me, keep my Commandments. (John 14:15). Thank you I will get back to this simple truth now. Thanks to your comment I can see that too much knowledge can be a bad thing.

[@alteredcatscyprus]

Light reveals form.

[@sunbro6998]

I have often wondered if Jordan's use of the phrase dominance hierarchy is precise enough. What about a priority hierarchy?

[@sunbro6998]

Yes!! I love what you both said, and if the hierarchy is perverted too much, such as if you put the ideas at the bottom (the largest area) and the action is at the top (the smallest point of the pyramid), it would lead to a .... well, kind of like how are society is going now. The pyramid turns into a rectangle and then an inverted pyramid, which is an unstable structure. Damn, you guys got my ape brain trying to process this stuff.

[@matthieupageau9537]

There is definitely an inverted pyramid being created right now in an attempt to completely re-create (without re-producing) western civilization. The whole idea of "intersectional feminism" seems to be one of the driving forces of this inverted hierarchy of victimhood. The whole point is to destroy and then re-create our world. The people at the source of these influences (whoever they are) seem to know exactly what they are doing and appear to have a deep understanding of symbolism and its implications. It could also be happening on its own (organically) as part of the natural process of death and decay for western civilization.

[@redberries8039]

The pyramid, the 'inverted pyramid' being created, is this a reference to power being transferred to the masses? I don't think I understand? [also: there is top-down and bottom-up feedback in complex adaptive systems [re. fractal systems], where the top-down is control resulting from the structure/system as a whole and bottom-up from the many individual agents]

[@matthieupageau9537]

I am referring to the "shadow pyramid" which is an inverted hierarchy used to subvert and replace an existing hierarchy. This image can actually be found very overtly in the story of King David; the cave of Adullam. Regular hierarchies are build on the ability to answer a problem with a higher (abstract) principle, while the inverted hierarchy is built on the ability to escape that imposition of meaning (being an unanswerable riddle). It's an important concept in biblical cosmology, with huge implications, although it is usually not as explicit as in the story of King David. Check out I Samuel 22 for this pattern. It might be related to what you are describing with complex adaptive systems. However, it also implies a sort of culmination into a lowest point: a sum of all mystery.

[@redberries8039]

I've read I Samuel 22 ...explicit ...I can't see it :) ...no worries. Searched on ["shadow pyramid" Biblical Cosmology] ....just got the one hit, not on topic.

[@jakeepler5218]

You guys need to be reading Ralph Waldo Emerson. Some of what you two discuss is similar to Emerson’s work. “The world is emblematic. Parts of speech are metaphors, because the whole of nature is a metaphor of the human mind.” - Nature (chapter IV: language)

[@jasonroberts2249]

I’ve been thinking of the Fall from Eden as an ‘echo’ which manifests itself continuously to this moment. Ironically Amazon, whose logo is an arrow that resembles a serpent, just announced today a new slew of “smart” home and personal surveillance equipment under its “Echo” brand.

[@overcamehim]

Continuing with the frog theme.....have you read the book of Revelation chapter 16:13-14. In my Bible study I find many repeating patterns and many types and shadows and symbols of Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus is concealed in the old and revealed in the new. Also, there is a Hebrew method of interpretation of the scriptures referred to as the pesher and the peshet that leads to a revelation. Shalom in Jesus.