Mixing With Clippers. The Reality.

[@SonicScoop]

A very well structured and well-argued video! But there are a few substantial problems with this analysis that have to be mentioned: 1. *You likely aren't using the kinds of processors that clipping advocates typically endorse* Since you have an unusual preference of defining clipping as only "perfectly hard clipping", and because you argue that "soft clippers" aren't clippers at all, you likely aren't actually using the kinds of clippers than most clipping proponents advocate for. Practically every plugin company that sells clippers for this purpose are selling "soft clippers" for this purpose. Not perfectly hard clippers. This video only stands a chance of making its point if your end viewer happens to agrees with you on this extremely esoteric semantic argument, and also refuses to call these popular tools "clippers". In other videos, you yourself have advocated that people use saturation to increase RMS. But by your definition, that's exactly what the "soft clippers" these plugin companies are selling are! 🙃 If you are using perfectly hard clippers for this example, then you aren't doing what most hard clipping proponents advocate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are using perfectly hard clippers for this example-because according to your narrow and somewhat quirky definition-they are the only types of clippers that exist? 2. *The proportion of clipping vs limiting matters* If you do 10dB of hard clipping vs 10dB of limiting, the10 dB of limiting will sound "better" to most ears, no doubt about it! 10 dB of perfectly hard clipping sounds pretty awful! However, if you compare "10 dB of limiting" against "2dB of softer clipping with only 8dB of limiting", you may find that the softer clipped version sounds louder and more transparent. Please run this kind of test for yourself. I've done similar kinds of tests for others to hear on my own channel, and the results are VERY different than what you have here. You just have to be fair about running the tests, taking into account what procedures are actually being recommended. 3. *The "sliding scale of suckiness" analogy is entirely incorrect, because it ignores the threshold of hearing for audible side effects* I'm sorry to say this one bluntly, but final point in the video is simply incorrect. The "sliding scale" is a bad analogy because it ignores the reality that there is a threshold of hearing for all audio phenomena, for all human beings. Just because some THD is being added (or any other type of side effect), *it doesn't mean that side effect it is actually audible*, beneath a certain threshold. So there is no linear "sliding scale of suckiness". It is a completely non-linear scale. A 10% change on the left side of the scale may have no noticeable negative effect, while a 10% change on the right side of the scale may have a significantly audible effect! This is the scientifically observable fact that is at the root of the recommendation of using softer clippers to reduce *some* of the load of a limiter. To put it another way: Adding a small bit of an audio side effect can be completely inaudible up until a certain point. So, it's simply incorrect to say that going 10% or 20% up the scale adds 10% or 20% in sucky side effect. That's just demonstrably not the case. Rather, at the low end of the scale, you are adding 0% sucky side effect, until you reach some threshold at which that sucky side effect can actually be heard! (This is true of any processor, not just the THD added by clippers.) However, on the other end of the spectrum, you are potentially taking away a substantial amount from the already-noticeable sucky side effects of some other type of processor by turning it down, such as a limiter that is limiting by 10dB. Here a 10% to 20% change in the side effect may be audible, because the side effect is already above the threshold of hearing. I'll restate it one more time, because I've mentioned this on past videos, and I don't think you've acknowledged it yet: In practice, adding 1dB or 2dB of clipping (even awful sounding hard clipping) may not be noticeable at all because the THD being added is below the threshold of hearing. HOWEVER, subtracting 1dB or 2dB of limiting from a limiter that is doing 10dB of limiting may be noticeable, because its pumping and breathing side effects are already ABOVE the threshold of hearing. This goes double if you actually use the softer clippers that most clipping advocates actually advocate for. So again, the proportion is important, and can't be ignored. This was the most demonstrably incorrect point made in the video. 4. *Discounting the impact of loudness in mastering by ONLY listening level-matched is a bad idea* I am with you that listening level matched is a great idea to hear what we are REALLY doing to the audio in mastering. However, in mastering, there are tradeoffs-just as with anything else. And you have to be aware of them. So you should listen BOTH WAYS. With and without level matching. Even with automatic volume normalization, records that are mastered to -14 LUFS end up sounding quieter than hotter masters, in practice. We must be aware of this. It's not appropriate to say "we have no control over the listener's volume dial, so we should listen level matched". That's entirely backwards! It's because we have no control over the listener's volume dial that we ALSO have to listen without level matching 🙂 It is essential to listen level-matched so we know for certain what (if any) side effects we are adding in mastering. But it's also essential to recognize that some clients are willing to accept some subtle tradeoffs in side effects in favor of some not-so-subtle effects in perceived loudness next to other tracks in their genre. I write all this not because I'm a strong advocate of clipping. I'm actually not, and I don't use a ton of it myself. I write it only because I think you're a thoughtful person and a good communicator and rhetorician, so I want to see you get your arguments right. I hope it proves helpful! Very best, Justin

[@LeChapeauMusic]

that's a great response! should get pinned in my opinion. i agree with both you and him in some things. thanks for writing this down!

[@SonicScoop]

​@@LeChapeauMusic I agree with AP on some things too :-) I just think the analysis on this one leaves out some key arguments from the other side, and that the test could have likely been more fair, and closer to what clipping advocates actually recommend. I've done similar tests on my channel, that I think are a bit more even handed, and the results are quite different. And I'm not even really much of a clipping advocate myself! I appreciate him offering an alternate perspective, as the pro-clipping advocacy has probably gone a bit too far in recent years, but I don't think the balancing point is to be found all the way on the other side of the spectrum.

[@Mike_Benz_]

Longest comment I've ever seen in my life.

[@muyeikasamurabi1602]

​​@@SonicScoop Yeah, I feel you. Will check out your tests on your channel. I feel like the point of clippers along the way was always supposed to be subtlety. Basically, only grabbing the errant peaks that make the next processor in the chain do something unwanted. And we're talking between .5 and 2db max, here. Even then, sometimes better to run 2 clippers in series with super subtle shaving to be even more invisible? YMMV. I love this channel for these kinds of discussions. Black and white is always grey. Cheers!

[@PolarTrance]

On the 4th point, what do you mean by do both? So level matching makes sense, it's a thing you do specifically, but to also not do it... To me that's just winging it, and or not caring much about whatever I'm doing. Isn't that pretty much how people dial in settings anyway, listen to what you're doing (which is not level matched) and then you level match. I guess if you don't listen to what you're doing while dialing in the settings, it would make sense.

[@SuperSlus]

oh man. I was a fan of yours, even if I didn't always agree with your points. The way you are handling the comment section is crazy. Banning people for having valid counter arguments? You think pointing out aspects of your video that could've been done better is disrespectful? You've made a name for yourself shitting on mainstream plugin developers (which I'm all for) but if you can't handle the heat maybe stay out of the kitchen...

[@vjmcgovern]

Ooooh sheeit I wish I could’ve seen those counterarguments

[@Weaverbeats]

maybe, just maybe, cipping works better on different genres or songs. or you can make part 35 dancing around this obvious conclusion.

[@APMastering]

it works better on some things but the point is that data loss is less good than having the data

[@SAFAMASTR]

@@APMastering so we also shouldn't use any bit or sample reduction processors?

[@APMastering]

@@SAFAMASTR clipping discards data audibly. rendering to 24bit from 64 or whatever is completely inaudible.

[@samuraiowlmusic]

that's not about what they were asking. they were asking about things like bitcrushers, unless im very much mistaken

[@APMastering]

@@samuraiowlmusic if you like the sound of a bit crusher, go for it. i personally think it sounds terrible

[@djvoid1]

You've picked a genre of track that doesn't benefit from a super loud master. This kind of music benefits more from dynamics and detail and isn't going to be played in an environment where matching loudness with other tracks is even necessary. The kind of tracks where clipping plays a role in production benefit from density, saturation and power and clipping (both soft and hard) are part of that. The genres I'm referencing are more electronic music genres, and yeah, arguably they could use a little quieter LUFS values in places (hardstyle has deliberately sacrificed low end for example to appear louder), but for the most part, it's an aesthetic choice, not a competitive one (it's more an ever changing 'meta' in sound design really)

[@sparella]

You're obviously using the wrong clipper. Let me introduce you to my favorite clipper plugin. It's called Nova. :P

[@APMastering]

lol

[@fortsechs]

Best insider comment evva

[@jinxradar]

Respectfully, you highlight the fact that other KZbinrs offering clipping advice are also in some cases selling clipper plugins, but you do not qualify this with the fact that you yourself are also selling a product and using these videos as a vehicle to promote your paid services.

[@fcmas]

The hypocrisy is real

[@FerutElCampeador]

he sells courses. you take it one time, you are done. But there are large amounts of plugins that do the same thing, being promoted as totally different sounds.

[@APMastering]

im allowed to promote my products. i'm even allowed to sell a clipper plugin in a video where i demonstrate clipper plugins are terrible. selling products says nothing about the content of my video. what an odd accusation

[@duncan.o-vic]

@@APMastering Selling products introduces a bias which makes content of your videos more likely to be dishonest or flawed.

[@jinxradar]

@@APMastering It wasn’t meant as an accusation, just a potential customer giving feedback on how it comes across. You say more than once about how these same people are also selling you clipper plugins like they are only in it for the money and scamming or something. You leave yourself open to the same criticism potentially. My unasked for advice would be to stay classy and focus on the findings and audio advice rather than targeting other content creators/plugin developers (no, I am neither of these). Good luck with the business!

[@incidence.studio]

Problem in this topic is the simple biased implicit statement that clippers and limiters are interchangeable what they are not. What specifically sounds bad in your example are the melodic/sustained elements. Here I made a (very short) explanation of when you should use clipper and limiters kzbin.info/www/bejne/oF6pgKqwiLZ1n8Usi=Jf-C0B5Xtjpq8_hf

[@benjaminmichaut9996]

I love how each lack of argument you can see in one video is instantly filled by the next one in the serie.

[@APMastering]

yeah i can't cover everything in each video. normally the first 2 are accepted in advance and i leave the 3rd open

[@APMastering]

*scripted

[@toshasun]

Where can I get the same theme for Reaper?

[@darotm7628]

The clipping methodology is for loud music like dubstep & drum n bass

[@APMastering]

those genres used to be analogue and not excessively loud. and i used to love both. now i think everything coming out of those scenes sounds like a sample cd. very sad. that said, you're wrong since i'm actually responding to rock orientated channels that advocate it

[@duncan.o-vic]

It can be used anywhere in different ways. Those are just the genres where it is an important part of the sound.

[@huberttorzewski]

I use clipping to avoid hearing compression that limiters introduce. You can shave off quite a bit of transients before you can even hear any change in a sound which is great. On the other hand when you use a limiter you always hear it changing the dynamics. I can hear it turning down and up the whole mix. I don't like that effect of changing the dynamics on a whole mix also, I'd rather round off those peaks and have internal dynamics of a mix without any change (also you can avoid changing the tone of a mix that way if a clipper is really good, for example Flatline 2 is really great in a hybrid mode on a master bus - the tone of a mix remains unchanged + the internal dynamics is preserved). In rock and metal it's absolutely the best practice - in pop it's not always the best choice but sometimes it is. Acoustic music is good for limiters because you can get away with slower releases and the added limiter compression is kinda helpful also for making the track sound more glued. For electronic music it depends on a track - sometimes the limiter is better, sometimes soft clipping + limiter or even 2 limiters, sometimes just hard clipping + a bit of limiting at the end etc. Just my 2 cents.

[@XantuxNepomuk]

Bro this was great 👏, thanks for taking my fear of large reduction values on limiters Who would've thought that removing the transients with a clipper will make it sound like there aren't any transients 😅

[@APMastering]

don't get me wrong, i'm not necessarily advocating huge gain reduction in limiters but i do prefer it over using any clipping

[@XantuxNepomuk]

@@APMastering for sure! Your wording around that in the video was better. But some of these myths around clippijg and limiting definitely lead me to using my eyes too much when judging gain reduction in a limiter. And now I feel a bit more confident trusting my ears in regards to that

[@rickmassimo6192]

@@APMastering I'm not going to step into the clipping/no clipping debate because I don't know enough to say anything definitive (except to repeat that if you want a clipper there are plenty of good free ones). But yes, the main thing I got out of this is that a limiter can be taking 6db of gain reduction and it can (CAN, not "definitely will") sound great. I've limited things heavily and thought they sounded great but talked myself out of it because you're not "supposed to" do that. I'll have more confidence now. Thanks!

[@JazzyFizzleDrummers]

I feel like the testing on this video isnt as solid as your other content. Its clear you don't like the sound of clipping, so in setting up the tests how do we know you didnt scew the results? I think you need a master from an engineer who works both with and without clipping for a blind test, and really put to the test if you can hear those 2-8 samples getting chopped off. Also i do think there is a possible work around to get the consistent dynamic control response without clipping the signal directly by clipping the side chain for the processor. Ive been messing around with that one lately and its so far been very useful with program dependent comps.

[@WyattBrown377]

Feeding the compressor sidechain a clipped signal is a really cool idea, can't wait to try that one out

[@alexzamora5285]

lmao

[@APMastering]

my free compressor plugin has clipping in the detection feedback circuit. I feel like that is fine... I programmed that to deliberately lose data over a threshold to prevent feedback. I just don't think data loss on your actual signal is a good idea.

[@JazzyFizzleDrummers]

@@APMastering I mean, what about gates and filtering? Aren't you still losing data by doing that?

[@DawnHub666]

clipping isnt data loss. its data changing.. what are u talking about lol

[@genuinefreewilly5706]

I believe you are correct. I can't recall ever needing or using a clipper but maybe an asset for certain genres.

[@IntheDAW]

Yep heavy genres need it. Metal uses it like everywhere

[@genuinefreewilly5706]

@@IntheDAW Yes, I figure best examples are short ads and types of production music. There is a point where where a cue is clipped so much it is damaging to your speakers , your hearing and mental health Speakers and headphones are like pets, their health is dependent on the diet you feed them :)

[@AndiPicker]

Does anyone really do this though? I often use a clipper on my drum buss to knock a few dB off the transients without effecting any of the lower level signal and it doesn't sound anything like the examples you play here - I could make it do that but I'd be trying to make it sound bad to make a point. Not really sure where this crusade against clippers is coming from, they're a tool, and if a clipper is the wrong tool for the job then don't use it?

[@APMastering]

loads of people promote exactly this

[@phfatband]

Better articulated than I could in my comment.

[@drrodopszin]

I have the exact opposite effect: limiter made my snare and kick mushy and background, while with clipping, like you described in the intro, my kick and snare finally hits strong. I could not achieve this for many-many years, I choked the transients and it just sounded weak in the end. Now I sometimes see I have accidentally reached -4Lufs and I can loosen up the settings, clip less, limit less. I would love to watch a debate between you and Panorama mixing and mastering. Or Hardcore music studio's works. Their stuff is punchy, strong and loud.

[@APMastering]

Sounds like you have a poor limiter or poor settings. I'm not a mix engineer, I'm a mastering engineer, so although I can mix pretty solidly, a professional mix engineer SHOULD have an edge over me, and I would expect to have an edge over them in mastering. So it would be better me VS panorama dude as I understand his main thing is mastering. However, I feel like when doing those kinds of mastering competitions, all that will happen is each person's fanbase will vote for their guy and it would be a popularity contest more than it would be anything about mastering.

[@IntheDAW]

That's actually why we use clipping on kick and snare. It's literally a trick that came from when people used consoles they would hit a Neve hard with the kick and snare to saturate it and give it much more impact. When I worked at a studio that's literally what the head engineers did to make the rock and metal snare smack without pushing the peak volume to bad clipping.

[@johndozesoph4136]

@@IntheDAW Nobody was deliberately hitting the protection circuits though on a Neve console(which would be analogous to hard clipping on most solid state consoles) and before digital padding there'd be no way to hit it anyways with any preamp or analog pad without creating a lot of noise or other ugliness. you are basically talking about saturation which i think is what this fellas point is. I think Mike Dean is the only person i've heard of abusing a Neve side console to do this, but most of the stuff he works on is pretty distorted already. what's a few more squashed samples

[@APMastering]

@@IntheDAW yeah that's not clipping

[@duncan.o-vic]

@@APMastering Sounds like you have a poor clipper or poor settings in your video. Maybe even poor mastering skills for a mastering engineer...

[@mixphantom0101]

I had started making a video on this very topic - thanks for doing this! Modern limiters like the Pro-L2 have two stages which for all intents and purposes is like a clipper followed by a fast high ratio compressor. So, whether a signal needs 3dB or 1dB of clipping before limiting the "meat" of the signal makes little difference to the Pro-L2 circuit as it's not trying to shape the transient - just "clip it" before dealing with the signal that follows the transient. Based on this knowledge, if you set the Pro-L2 lookahead to zero and increase the attack time to maximum it becomes a regular garden variety "hard clipper".

[@BenedictRoffMarsh]

I have never understood Clipper before Limiter. I will Limit lightly then a Soft Clip after again softly to catch the fast things with a nice bit of cheeriness from the overtones. But I don't run tracks at the same (lack of) dynamics as most do these days. :-)

[@Beatsbasteln]

you know what? I think you are absolutely right. I did get carried away about smashing transients so hard all the time. and it's definitely always this problem. drums that put themselves into the background, but not in the cool way, like in a good shoegaze song, but just like weird rhythmic sponges. only thing you can still do when that happens is turning the drums up even louder, so that at least their distortion gets colourful and interesting, but then we're going deep into gabba territory

[@APMastering]

"rhythmic sponges" is one of the best descriptions of this phenomenon i've ever heard!

[@zionjaymes4415]

I do the same thing. Limiters on transient stuff like drums are really great for “setting” things in the mix, and making sure they’re not popping out in an obnoxious and annoying way, but sometimes I think I go overboard with it. I also think “spongey” is the perfect term to describe the sound of overly squashed transients

[@duncan.o-vic]

That is why you should mix with ears.

[@Beatsbasteln]

@@duncan.o-vic or the eyes need to learn to appreciate the spikes :)

[@chrt_aaron]

While I agree with the sentiment that over-reliance on clipping can destroy a mix, some points here feel a bit extreme. First, yes, clipping can shave off transients, and if overused, it does make the mix sound lifeless. That’s why it's all about balance. The idea of putting clippers on every percussive element isn’t inherently wrong - it's a technique many engineers use for subtle transient control, not total annihilation. If you're hearing harsh distortion or dullness, you're pushing it too far, as this video demonstrates with an exaggerated example. But to say that using clippers at all leads to bad results? That's not true. Clipping, when used judiciously, helps control peaks before the limiter so you can get a louder mix without squashing dynamics completely. It's not a "slippery slope toward crap" if you know what you're doing. Tons of successful engineers use this method on modern tracks. The final point about loudness normalization is spot on, though! Streaming platforms are going to adjust volume, so chasing extreme loudness is pointless. Instead of trying to “out-loud” everything, focus on making the mix sound good, not just loud. The takeaway here should be balance - don’t overdo it, but don't dismiss clipping altogether either.

[@APMastering]

hmmmm. i don't understand how a little bit of something bad is good. transient degradation was, up until very recently, something engineers strived to avoid at all costs

[@chrt_aaron]

@@APMastering I understand your perspective, especially since your channel focuses on debunking industry myths, I agree 100% with the compressor and eq videos. But the key here isn’t that transient degradation is inherently good - it’s that subtle transient control can serve a practical purpose. A lot of the industry trends, like using clipping, have been misunderstood or misapplied, leading to extreme results. The point is that controlled clipping, when done right, isn’t about destroying transients. It's about taming peaks that would otherwise force a limiter to overwork and potentially squash the mix even more. So, in moderation, it can prevent that heavy-handed limiting sound that engineers used to fear just as much as transient loss. It’s not about embracing something bad - it’s about choosing the lesser evil to preserve dynamics and clarity in modern loud mixes.

[@SonicScoop]

​@@APMastering It's because there is a minimum threshold before which we can hear negative side effects from any a processor. Even once we pass that threshold, the side effects may still be very subtle. However, on the other far end of the scale, that same small change applied to a reduction in side effect might be meaningfully audible, because the negative side effect was already far enough above the threshold for us to recognize it easily. Therefore, adding a very small amount of clipping may add no meaningfully audible side effect, while reducing the same amount of limiting may meaningfully reduce side effects from the limiter. As an analogy: A little bit of ibuprofen can take away your headache without meaningful side effects that you notice. Too much of it may take away your headache but give you an upset stomach. Way too much of it and you won't notice your headache because you'll be dead! 🙃 So yes, there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing". A little bit of salt makes food more edible and is good for your athletic recovery. Way too much salt makes food inedible and may contribute to negative health outcomes. I could go on, but imagine you get the idea by now!

[@zionjaymes4415]

This came at the exact right time. I’m actually in the process of finishing an album right now, and I kinda noticed that some tracks were a little bit “spongey” sounding compared to others (and compared to my reference) I’m using quite a lot of limiting and clipping on groups (like my drum bus for example) and on my weakest hitting track, I tested raising the ceilings on those buses by 2-4dB. And wow, it really broght the life back into it. It really pops and sounds great! Thanks a lot. Now I have to go back through the whole album and make adjustments…

[@APMastering]

glad you could get some of that transient information back

[@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq]

You're only supposed to clip inaudibly in your master bus because there are some transients that can be shaved off without degrading the sound. If your clipping + limiting is making the master sound worse, it's because you're doing it wrong. Most of the heavy lifting done by hard clipping is supposed to be on the individual tracks that have lots of transients themselves. Overall kind of a bad example.

[@APMastering]

most was happening on the individual tracks. see end of video

[@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq]

@@APMastering Maybe you should reveal how you used clippers in your mix in the next video? I don't understand how you got it to sound this bad.

[@duncan.o-vic]

@@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq He was trying to make it bad, to prove his point. If he had clipped properly he would have proven himself wrong.

[@SenorTropiCat]

@@APMastering previously you said in a comment that you were clipping only on the master bus.

[@APMastering]

@@duncan.o-vic you make a video then

[@UsefulDemigod123]

I would like to add a point in favour of clipping. The limiter generally causes a "pumping effect" when pushed too hard and pushing hard is a characteristic of many genres. Though I would say that could be circumvented through saturation too.

[@APMastering]

100% saturation can do that if you want this. Different limiters and different settings will cause different amounts of pumping.

[@samuraiowlmusic]

when you say "crackling, horrible distortion" i hear "sound design" :P i get what's being said. i was irritated at first because i use clippers obsessively and was prepared to diss you immediately, but i get what you're saying. while im still going to use a clipper where i specifically do want its distorted sound, it makes sense that it's not great to use for mixing specifically due to the removal of information. for everyone freaking out, in the end nobody cares whether you used a clipper or a limiter on your track, and nobody on the internet is going to arrest you for not obeying their video. you can do what you want without being obnoxious

[@monkmusic5994]

Clippers are mostly used for dance music where constant beats and bass are pushed. If you use them for pop/rock/balads you have a point here.

[@APMastering]

they are OFTEN used in rock and pop

[@monkmusic5994]

@@APMastering that would proof that professionals know how to use them properly. Nicholas di Lorenzo from Australia e.g. is such a person

[@nardeccs4452]

I'm 2.50 minutes in and I'm predicting that the optimism he's currently displaying is actually irony

[@TheTsupul]

You can get a satisfying results using both ways, if you know what you’re doing. In this video there is an attempt to claim that clippers are bad so the clippers treatment sounds like it was arbitrary and distasteful, while the 100% limiter version sounds like there was more love and time put into it.

[@APMastering]

not really i just slapped a limiter on for the example video

[@TheTsupul]

I wish it was that easy

[@NitzanBueno]

Unlike the last one, this video I found convincing. All of it except your point about "why would you want to be on a scale from not-bad to bad" - that's considering the MASSIVE assumption that the scale is linear. Plenty of plugins sound good in moderation and bad when pushed to the extreme. You could even say most if not all plugins are this way, actually. You wouldn't say that on an LPF, or an EQ, etc. etc. However I agree with you - that wasn't pushing it too far.

[@APMastering]

well i don't know, with compression if it's too much you can dial it back, sure, but i don't find a convincing case for a bit of data loss sounding good or stepping on only a bit of shit being an improvement to clean shoes, like there is a right amount of shit every shoe should have

[@spencermurray7616]

i love clippers. if i just want to make something loud ill usually reach for a stock saturator with a lil knee. but i mostly use them for sound design, and there are alot of different flavors of crunch. im a big fan of newfangled audio's saturate. not sure how the detail preservation works, but it sounds great when you drive the shit out of it. also love kclip3

[@APMastering]

one way to do detail preservation is to clip in parallel with a high passed filtered version which is also clipped. i think this kind of processing is stupid though, it's like the sandwich example in my video

[@spencermurray7616]

@@APMastering Your awesome! i'm gonna try that with kclip right now lol

[@LucasMichalski]

Another very useful and informative video. I watched your whole "series" of clippers. I'm still waiting for your video about M/S EQing in both mixing and mastering. What you think about it, what's your honest opinion ect. We talked about it in comments couple of weeks ago. Much appreciated. Thank you

[@APMastering]

will do mid side at some point

[@LucasMichalski]

@@APMastering thank you. Really looking forward!

[@sparella]

​@@APMasteringI use MCenter instead of sum/difference when I really want to control the actual sides (iow, not the out of phase "channel")

[@ronallen2458]

Point taken, but probably not the best genre for this comparison. I hear that clipper advice far more for EDM than more dynamic stuff like this. nice vid.

[@APMastering]

although it's popular in edm, there's a large percentage of rock/metal audio channels promoting clipping and the dude i was referring to in the video who was "trying to sell me his clipper plugin" was a rock channel

[@SenorTropiCat]

LOL, you want to cheat people again to prove your point :D Show us exactly what you were doing with the clippers. Yes, you can destroy a mix with clippers, nothing to see here... The problem is that if you are PROPERLY mixing with clippers, the result will be better than using only limiters. And your final argument is a joke? When you put salt on your food does it get better? Yes. When you put 1 kg of salt in your soup will it taste good? No... So salt is bad? :D

[@APMastering]

if you continue to assume dishonesty on my part i'll just block you. learn some respect.

[@APMastering]

@@Durkhead can you explain how it's dishonest to use clippers to erode transients in a video where im explicitly using clippers to erode transients?

[@SenorTropiCat]

@@APMastering with all due respect: please make a video about your exact process during making the bad version with clippers, so in this case we can properly evaluate the results.

[@APMastering]

@@SenorTropiCat its what you see in the video in the mixer. it's just standard if sample > threshold then sample = threshold. i lowered the threshold until i heard distortion then backed off a bit

[@SenorTropiCat]

@@APMastering yes, but this is not how you should be doing mixing with clippers. You put it on individual tracks or busses where and how it’s needed. On the master channel you only clip a minimal amount, certainly not until audible distortion

[@metaspaceaudio]

10:49 I agree with your point, but I bet I can at least get to an equal level in terms of loudness and transparency/clarity using clipping and compression. Can you upload the file anywhere? Let's create a challenge with all clipper bros 😁

[@metaspaceaudio]

​@@DurkheadNot even that, I think I can beat it without using EQ 🤔😁

[@APMastering]

although on my channel as you know i often upload all the files, on this occasion it's not my music and not my recording or mix. i just mastered the spotify release.

[@APMastering]

id like saying data corruption is a tool and sometimes it's the right tool for the job. ok 🤷‍♂️

[@APMastering]

@@Durkhead multiple disrespectful comments now, banned.

[@metaspaceaudio]

@@APMastering Maybe you could do a challenge video where people could contribute their solution for getting things loud 🤔 I'd really like to hear what wach party (Limiter vs. Clipper) would do and who has the best sounding result.

[@thestarwarscraft4005]

I find this very interesting. I saw on another video that clipping sounds better on drum transients than limiting. However here, the drums sound way better on your mix without clipping, the clipping mix the drums are completely smoothed. I'm wondering in the other video I saw if it was "soft clipping".

[@APMastering]

imho soft clipping doesn't exist. what is normally meant by that is distortion

[@samuraiowlmusic]

that point was really unclear to me, i still dont understand what on earth it actually means. id love some help understanding it. isn't soft clipping (or whatever you'd like to call it) doing the same thing as hard clipping, but incorporating some sort of data preservation? and what is soft clipping if not clipping? i dont understand what you mean by saying it's distortion. hard clipping and saturation are both also forms of distortion, aren't they? (im also terrible with terminology by the way. sorry if this is nonsense)

[@StereotacticMusic]

Never being a fan of clipping and still not, something happen to the source material just by passing through and clipping 0.2 that I don't like.

[@BeatsByAbuBarrett]

Good points but a bit biased I would say, this I think only shows you don't like clippers haha. I don't think it's a just mastering mindset. The clipping is just supposed to control the extra voltage to the speakers but not alter the sound or the feeling of the songs. Also, I do think it's not the best example song as it isn't that dynamic.

[@APMastering]

im using the clippers in the way that many people advocate... that's what this video was aiming to debunk, that particular style of mixing.

[@IntheDAW]

I have to say clipping and saturation plugins are really depends on the music you are working on. I use alot of hardware for stuff i do with clients and there is a noticable point of when a little drive sounds amazing. And thats the same thing I use my plugins for. Especially with metal or even styles of edm. It needs clipping and distortion to give it its sound and impact. I don't think everything needs clippers or saturation let alone every genre but its not usless and isn't used the way you showed with your examples. Its a great video and your point that it wont always sound good is very valid but saying not to use it at all is just not true. Its a taste and genre thing

[@lespieces]

I am a victim of those clipper ''pro-tips''. The master was suddenly feeling lifeless. I felt bad bc I'm a not a professional mixing or mastering engineer, but decided to trust my feeling, despite those KZbinrs fu*kers saying otherwise. You are right. Thank you.

[@quizacgmail]

EDM producers?

[@APMastering]

yeah there are enough people selling clippers (easiest plug to code) and not enough people critical of it, so i thought i'd balance that out a bit 😀

[@lusid_music_uk]

Let me be clear. All else being equal - Louder is better than quieter. Yes? We don’t send our masters out peaking at -12 db because that would obviously be stupid. But by your logic, why not? the listener could just turn it up right? So clearly that’s silly and louder is just better. Therefore - If you can make it louder without any PERCEIVABLE downside then you should. Right? (Assuming you want the best master possible) Also, How it sounds is more important than how it looks. Right? People aren’t seeing the waveform generally. They’re listening. Well Limiters pumping sounds bad. Louder is better. Shaving off peaks with clipping for a more consistent level should not be audible. BUT it does reduce the more audible limiter pumping. Also in your cut, clip, uncut example you’ve shifted the clipped peaks with phase shift to somewhere else on the waveform. So you’ve not even gained the headroom you were intending to create! If you weren’t using linear phase eq (which I didn’t hear you say you were) then this leads me to believe your knowledge on this topic has many holes in it. This is quite a basic mistake for a mastering engineer. If you were using linear phase then I take it back. However I’ve never seen anyone advocate for this silly technique that’s obviously going to sound bad. I can only assume you have some emotional reason outside of objective truth as to why you are anti clipping. I am not saying you have no valid points, but you are constantly straw manning many clipping advocates positions in order to “win” not to “find out”.

[@APMastering]

louder is not better

[@lusid_music_uk]

@@APMastering why not send your clients your masters at -14 LUFS then? Do you?

[@thatreddot6005]

Your content is typically good, but this is misleading... I'm not sure which YT channels you refer to here(?), but anyone worth a penny or more knows a clipper is just a tool that serves a very specific purpose and nobody is dropping clippers on every track in the way you are suggesting and destroying their transients. However there's 1 workflow I know of which starts with clippers and limiters on every track (so called Clip to Zero) but that's only for working at your final loudness level and if you were to actually follow that 16 or so hours video, its clear that its expected to take most of those off before going to mix. Clip to Zero is a process used during the production stage to enable a quick and dirty way to produce at high target loudness levels like -8 to -5 lufs so to evaluate easily if your sound design and arrangement is going to hold up at those levels. It's not used for mixing. It's also a workflow that belongs to genre's which are heavily distorted and very loud to start with, like midtempo, dubstep, and the likes, which take a lot better to clipping related distortion. You are entirely misusing clippers in this example here, even though you said you aren't, oddly. It sounds like shit using clippers on a finished mix that doesn't have any problems for which a clipper could actually help. At that point it just takes away things which shouldn't be taken away. As for your reference to overworking a limiter, if you have to hit your limiter's GR with ridiculous amounts to arrive at the target loudness at your master, then the mix is a smoking pile of cowdung to start with and no amount of clipping is going to safe you there... 🤷‍♂ Kinda funny you put a clipper against a brickwall limiter though.

[@APMastering]

multiple issues here. firstly, i'm actually responding to rock orientated channels that promote this. secondly, the mix is great and a limiters gain reduction meter will not tell you if a mix is good or bad, that's bizarre.

[@thatreddot6005]

​@@APMastering I see, I dont know much about rock, electronic focused myself. What I meant to say is that you often see people push limiters into crazy amounts of GR on YT, which is really not something that is needed. At the point one feels that during mastering they need to push a limiter into 5-6-7-or more GR *_to get to the requested loudness target_*, there's something else off with the dynamic processing or frequency balance before the limiter and a clipper isn't likely going to help with that. Perhaps this video would of been a bunch better value to also show in which cases you do want to use a clipper (soft/hard), especially dealing with any form of dynamic processing during mixing because there absolutely are cases when clipping before a compressor/limiter does make sense, in particular with soft clippers. This video feels more like a blanket statement as in "don't over clip everything, it will sound bad" which sure, is true for the most part, but also it doesn't show exactly when to reach out to a clipper....

[@IntheDAW]

​@@APMasteringmetal and rock use clipping but it's not how you described. It would be more slowly drive the snare into enough to make it sound louder and have more rms but not gain peak volume. And for a kick it would most likely be a console plugin going slowly into subtle saturation to make the snap hit harder. Not just make it sound like crap then make it the same lufs. It's made to bring up aparant loudness with the same peak. So it sounds louder on purpose then you mix it. It's using it completely wrong. But in all honesty the limiter you use is very good and is made to handle high levels of gr without crapping out and if you read the manual the modes it has actually simulate how it would sound going thru a peace of gear or even a style of saturation.

[@Rhuggins]

Panorama mixing and mastering came out with a very interesting video yesterday I believe, outlining the use cases for a hard clipper. I have a horrible flu so my brain isnt working as well right now, but Id love to hear your thoughts on it; hard clipping seemed to be the most transparent form of peak control in his example based on delta

[@APMastering]

i commented on his video 👍

[@Rhuggins]

@@APMastering ah sorry my brain = broken right now

[@APMastering]

@@Rhuggins no worries

[@LeChapeauMusic]

@@APMastering i don't see your comment anywhere, (i checked "newest") you sure it wasn't either not posted or deleted by him?

[@APMastering]

@@LeChapeauMusic maybe he censored. not sure. it's on his latest one where he's talking about clipping as a case study

[@BobThebuilder-d8x]

If your gona use a clipper and your using reaper then up in the right hand corner if you alt-click on the circle it will give you the delta signal then you can hear if theres any crackling distortion if you hear crackling right away your using it wrong

[@APMastering]

firstly, ANY clipping of anything will give you crackles in your delta. Secondly "doing it wrong" implies there is some rulebook, which there isnt.

[@BobThebuilder-d8x]

@@APMastering clipping doesnt always give you crackles i used to think the same thing.Thats why i started checking the delta i found that certain things respond very well to clipping and do not have that crackle distortion and get boosted cleanly and sound fuller

[@APMastering]

can you give an example of distortion delta that doesnt have any crackling quality to it?

[@BobThebuilder-d8x]

@@APMastering i put it on the snare track, i use the reaper stock clipper and i use it to bring out the ring of the snare everytime iv used it like that iv been able to set the clipper at really high levels without getting that crispy sound but i usually only add a little bit cause the snare will lose punch. Also idk if anyone else does this but if im trying clip a whole track ill use an equalizer to cut the low end up to about 500 to 1k and only apply the clipper to the the freq of 1k and up

[@phfatband]

As respectfully as I can say it: this is a Caricature of the methodology used by serious engineers. Kind of the equivalent of throwing auto tune on all vocals with max speed and saying ‘look how awful tuning sounds’.

[@APMastering]

i'm responding to what many people advocate online

[@phfatband]

@@APMastering I’m with you and I get why you might want to debunk it but I have found such useful information on your channel. And so thoughtfully displayed. I get that it’s tempting to debunk bad technique but then debunk the bad technique you know? Nobody I know who eats food from their sonic sculpturing uses clippers like that. I have used clippers to make tracks far punchier than I could have using limiting. There are actual working engineers learning stuff from your channel. I tell no word of a lie when I say I was at dinner with a group of engineers on Tuesday and I was trying to speak about your compression videos and I was cut off ‘his take on clipping is weird I have beef with that guy’. I know that doesn’t sound like a real conversation but we are that nerdy.

[@APMastering]

it seems many people were triggered by my take on clippers. it's my honest position though. i've done all 3 parts now though so that's it and next video will be a different theme

[@Hotswagle7]

so ive been told

[@jcpuga]

I think I’m starting to get it now 😅. Clipping in the analog realm is different from digital clipping, right? And plugin companies introduced and marketed soft clippers, which seem more like distortion or saturation. They mimic analog clipping in function, but not exactly in the way an analog clipper would? Analog clippers add back the original signal. But digital clippers (termed hard clippers) the algorithm simply cuts off sound data without adding it back, like an analog clipper would? It seems like the terminology might be misleading, and that’s why there’s some confusion or pushback around these terms?

[@APMastering]

yeah i reject the term soft clipping but many people reject this term. in the analogue domain you can design something to clip/clamp like digital clipping but there's no aliasing in analogue. most analogue designs for nice distortion are not clipping though because this doesn't sound great cherished analogue distortion is like tape and transformer saturation

[@DjDalePlay]

would be nice for you to show what are your settings with the elephant plugin..

[@APMastering]

i go through this and the reasoning in my courses. i can't cover everything in every video

[@DjDalePlay]

@@APMastering ah perfect

[@Bwarevibes]

A clipper on individual drums? I like to parallel it on a buss.

[@APMastering]

sure people do many things. i'm just responding to one of those advocated processes. however i think clipping in general is suboptimal parallel distortion sounds better

[@mewfan84]

It would help these comparisons tremendously if the two damn things would be level matched! Now the limiter only version is like 2db hotter, lol. Bad trolling, lol.

[@APMastering]

they are LUFS normalised

[@andreakleiner80]

I’m here just for the haircut.

[@killorfill6953]

Heavily clipped mixes always sounded super-brittle to my ears, but I loved the obsession with gain staging that accompanied that workflow. Making the optimal use of the available dynamic range is really useful and helped to improve my mixes without using distortion.

[@APMastering]

i'm a massive fan of understanding gain structure. i just don't think clippers play a part in that

[@joa1232]

Very interesting stuff. Recently I tried to put a (soft) clipper before my limiter on the master bus tog get my mixes louder and it worked for sure. But I will definitely be a bit more careful next time. But one question: why do you put it on every instrument? Chances are you are clipping on instruments that may have not influenced the limiter. Also arent limiters reducing transients as well?

[@APMastering]

people online advocate that approach. i think it's bad, of course. limiters reduce transients proportionally with the rest of the music.

[@HomestudioDad]

@@APMastering Whilst sausage shaped tracks can get your attention they reduce the times you want to listen to the track and a high dynamic range track will grow on you with repeated listens but it might escape your attention. In the good old days we paid good money for an LP and repeated listens where guarantied, now tracks have to compete with compelling videos about audio engineering. We also had stereos with large speakers to enjoy all the dynamic range with and now our shared listening environment is mostly laptop speakers. I have concluded that if I aim to have an audience I have to mix arrange and compose so that the track moves you on laptop speakers and that anything else will escape notice. I love this cover version of a Led Zeppelin track kzbin.info/www/bejne/fHbGoKuLj9Omg8U I also live this Kings of Leon track kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHeTeZuorK6qppI I love the "music" in these songs but the lack of dynamics means that I cannot stand listening to them anymore, my ears rebel. The initial kick that the compressed recording delivers fades quickly but would I have noticed these tunes If they were mixed with a high dynamic range? I have stopped worrying about "room acoustics" and although I would not mind having Andrew Scheps PMC atmos speaker setup I know that It would not help. What I need is a deeper understanding of tools I have at my disposal so that I can achieve impact on laptop speakers and APMastering seems to cut trough the chase. What is it that a limiter does that is different to clipping or distortion. If you have a look ahead limiter will that not have the same effect as clipping? Is the goal of a limiter other then transient shaving?

[@LiminalStvte]

so i presume you saying upward compression is the key, with transient processors

[@APMastering]

im not against upward compression but i don't use it THAT much myself. When i use it it's mostly to do something specific like make ghost notes louder on a snare

[@FRANKMUSIKOFFICIAL]

Gold clipper. Because you better have gold stocks to afford it.

[@APMastering]

ironically i hold some gold stocks and they've been going up a lot 😄 i think there's nothing special which i can see about gold clip though, it should cost

[@1loveMusic2003]

How much clipping you do is crucial. Clipping is to be done subtly. We don't see in the video how you're using the clippers. Any tool can be misused and I think if your mix sounds bad after using clippers you may have misused them. Just a though but I don't know because it isn't shown in the video. The saturation from clipping can make the percussive elements be perceived as more impactful.

[@APMastering]

in the video the clippers just have one slider, threshold, and that's just gain structure

[@1loveMusic2003]

@@APMastering Thanks for clearing that up but I'm curious how many DB of clipping were each doing; roughly?

[@APMastering]

@@1loveMusic2003 there's no meters. just did by ear

[@1loveMusic2003]

@@APMastering Thank for your honesty. Interesting topic.

[@Yann-c6v]

could you talk about the audio engines,pan law or "is it a better sounding daw for a specific application" ?

[@APMastering]

not sure the context of your question

[@Yann-c6v]

@@APMastering not really into the context but as you debunk some mysts I thought you could help. some people say yes some daws "sound better" the other say no ,arguing about null test ,I'm from the first category,using a daw I prefectly know but also knowing it doesn"t "sound better",Pan law may be involved but it seems something else is involved and null test is not always the answear

[@APMastering]

null test is always definitive if it nulls. pan law isn't that magic. in reaper for example you can change it

[@zqoneindahuse772]

''Why do you want to be on a slippery slope towards crap!'' Quote of the year fa sure AP. Really glad I found your YT page. Peace

[@APMastering]

😁

[@SonicScoop]

Except it doesn't quite work that way, unfortunately. It's not a classic slippery slope, because in this case, the slope is completely non-linear, due to the threshold of hearing for audible side effects. In practice, going from 0% to 10% or 20% doesn't actually increase the amount of sucky side effects by 10% or 20%. Rather, it increases the audible amount of sucky side effects by 0%, until some threshold is reached. And even then, we just barely hear the side effect until it becomes substantially more pronounced. On the other side of the slope, *decreasing* a processor from 100% down by 10% or 20% may have a much more meaningful effect than at any other part in the slope. This means that adding 1-2dB of subtle soft clipping up from 0 might add no meaningfully audible side effects, while subtracting 1-2 dB of limiting from 10dB of limiting might have a substantial audible effect. This scientifically demonstrable phenomenon is at the heart of the recommendations made by clipping advocates, and can't be ignored. I'd recommend you test this for yourself and come to your own conclusions!

[@APMastering]

i have done testing and cannot repeat the claims that small amounts of transient degradation is better. i think this comes down to people not having good limiter settings or using a bad sounding limiter. If you trigger a bad sounding limiter with bad settings with big transients, it will suck down and sound bad. this isn't an invitation for using a clipper, it's an invitation to get a better limiter or know how to better use the one you have

[@AvithOrtega]

another great video debunking these issues, looking forward to all the replies and discussions :)

[@DawnHub666]

bro where is your studio. ur on a laptop with a coat on.. do u even have a mouse ? all your info is wrong

[@masonmade4766]

truth is limiters really do sounds bad ! clippers tend to get me exited no matter what

[@APMastering]

i disagree. there are many limiters and many settings but very few that sound good. this is where experience absolutely is necessary

[@masonmade4766]

@@APMastering i have them all i think limiters are what they say they are ! limiters! so we most find a way to give that record soul and feeling ! a hint off clipping seems to be the sure way

[@erinburke9711]

What's up with the framerate?

[@APMastering]

my mac. need to upgrade

[@lucareifier7716]

Thank you for these insightful videos!

[@APMastering]

glad you found value

[@curtisburns]

This video from Panorama Mastering on the subject gives great context on when and why to use clipping: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gKeunZx5obugoNksi=BGrpUrmpVaHWa2xs

[@VinceJackson1]

This sounds like extreme clipping & thats not what good engineers are teaching. If you hardclip about -2 db overall the clipper only reacts to extreme peaks. I personally use gold clip cause it can soften the harshness when the clipper reacts. Clipping of the loudest peaks helps the limiter react more naturally & you can't hear 20 or less samples out of 48,000.

[@RegebroRepairs]

But if it isn't hard, is it even clipping? A soft clipper would just be a limiter, no?

[@APMastering]

yeah soft clipping is incorrectly named saturation distortion, not clipping

[@RegebroRepairs]

Is "clipper" a new name for hard limiting? Because clipping is definitely a bad thing, and doesn't need plugins. 😀 Edit: I've been reading up on clipper plugins, and as far as I can tell it's just limiting together with advertising saying it's better than limiting. Ie, it's snake oil.

[@APMastering]

it's literally just digital clipping. if it's called "soft clipping" then it's a distortion plugin

[@BalazsSalzinger]

Eq is bad ,compressing is bad ,mixing is bad. your haircut is cool. keep it up mate! more views are cool! post a mix that sounds good so I might care what you have to say

[@APMastering]

the mix is great. my haircut is fairly uninteresting to me. EQ and compression are the foundations of mixing, i have no idea what you are talking about

[@jason.martin]

This is a great scientific test, ill have to try this styled shootout in my set up. Its quite obvious the limiter version sounds better and retains the transients. Your target is roughly -10 LUFS usually?

[@APMastering]

i don't have a standard lufs target and it really varies across different label sounds. to be clear, the limiter setting in the video is not what was released. i mastered that track but i used other gear for it.

[@jason.martin]

@@APMastering I just brought up a mix from a band I produced and did the same test as yours as I do the mix and master. I can confirm I got the same results as you. The limiter only version sounded better. What limiter do you use generally?

[@APMastering]

@@jason.martin nice one. i'm a big fan of elephant

[@danyavilaoficial]

This is the chain that works for me flawlessly: -The Glue _ -3/3.5 db control_ 30ms attack auto release (sometimes) -CLA 2A -1 db control -ProQ2 slight M/S eq -Waves MAGMA sligh touch for harmonics -SIR clipper very sligh, enough to feel a push -L2 -2db control no ditter -Ozone Maximizer -2db control Usually I master whiting the mixing template so I can twitch details of the mix if I feel necessary changes

[@ELLIOT8209]

Use it on edm. That's where it shines. This entire video is questionable.

[@APMastering]

all the rock guys promote clipping and some even sell clipper plugins

[@drrodopszin]

​@@APMastering yeah, we metal guys do the left hand path 😊. I'm not afraid of distortion. This meek alternative music had weak kick and snare to start with. I agree that in styles where these should punch and kick you in the guts, it's way more important.

[@sebastianhanzlik4644]

20yrs ago I had an idea to make "brilliant" plugin - clipper. I did a few test w my poor quality mixes on poor quality speakers with poorly trained ears. I did mixdowns with and without elephant limiter on masterbus. Cutting few dbs makes mixes sound harsh - abandined the idea eaven then. Mastering engineers are using clippers? WTF. Try clipper on piano track.

[@APMastering]

lol yeah clipper on piano is probably the worst idea in audio.

[@BrassicaMusic]

😂 clipping doesn't suit the sounds in this music. Only use clipping if it does something nice to the sound. You can immediately tell if it ruins the sound, like any type of processing. I think your example is pure sarcasm. Anyway, fun video as ever. Can't wait for the Panaroma vs AP debate.

[@APMastering]

i'll have a discussion with anyone worth while

[@SAFAMASTR]

This guy... To many this "test" proved something. To me, it only proved that this song sounds pretty bad with this amount of (i believe it was hard) clipping and it sounds better with limiting. So clipping is bad? Bad and good in creative and artistic craft should be defined by the (preferably but not necessary educated) artist. Mixing and mastering is an art form in itself, so good engineer never does something just because. He or she verifies every step with ears and judgment. If the material sounds bad with this sort of clipping, than why should he/she use it? It reminds me of an older mixing tutorial by Andrew Scheps, where he is hitting the mix bus limiter so hard, it actually shapes the snare sound of the song. So should I, as a frequent user of clippers before the final limiter, tell him he made a mistake, that it will actually sound better with clipper before the limiter? No! It would sound different, and not to his liking, probably... So you say you are an educator? From one educator to another: Dude, we should be opening people's minds, not closing them up! Don't get me wrong, I really see you know your stuff and i do agree with a lot you said (especially the parts about tricking yourselves with loudness). I also understand, that you want to clarify many misinformation circling on KZbin and other similar platforms. But don't mistake your own aesthetic preference and workflows with some "universal audio rules".

[@APMastering]

I can repeat this with many different tracks in different genres with the same result In terms of Scheps, he is a legend, I'm a fan of him, and what he was doing with the limiter is not bad and this is something I do often. I'm not sure what your point is.

[@SAFAMASTR]

@@APMastering My point is: Mixing (Mastering) is an iterative process. You can't do tests like that and call them scientific (I've had this problem with your Digital vs analog emulation mix video also). It doesn't prove much, except that in certain situations, a certain amount of certain clipping is heard by most people as worse than certain limiting. Same as you, I can do tests where I show how clipping before the limiter sounds cleaner, punchier than a bad limiter that sags and pumps, because of the transient excess. Will i prove that clipping is the only way of doing things like that? No. At this point, to me it sure seems that way, but I always verify with my ears, my taste, and judgment. Why would I use it, if it sounded bad to me? (And i do loudness match, i really do. The psychoacoustic stuff that you talk about is something that is very real and scientific.) But If mixing was a set of scientifically proven actions, why would we need mixing engineers? Machines could do it better. True mixing is about the mixers approach his taste and his knowledge. So you say clipping is objectively bad since an information loss happens. But why would that be a bad thing in a context of a song production and mix? It's like when you don't use a recorded hi-hat track of a drum kit, because it sounds better without it. You've lost very many potential samples there, there was much more potential "information" available, but no-one can argue that it should be used hence making the song better, if it sounds worse (to the creators).

[@saardean4481]

I would say there is no „the right ONE method“. The clipper before Limiter works well if you have drums with extreme Transients which are basically inaudible when gone in many cases. Very often on „digital“ drums. If you take a more normal transient and shave off too much you get a mushy sound. On a full mix sometimes the way is upwards compression and some eq and not necessarily further limiting and clipping to the extreme. Its an endless thing the sound journey

[@APMastering]

hmmmm. i think when it's necessary because transients are excessive then there's probably a broader mic issue

[@APMastering]

*mix

[@saardean4481]

@@APMastering i am not recording things. So i have no big experience with recorded sounds apart from samples which i don`t broadly use. I notice however that in the digital world it can easily happen that on the way you gather „ultra“ transients as i call them, be that cause of chopping ,editing, steep settings on dynamics tools that add up in the long run so. They look like a transient of the transient if that makes sense. Like if the transient is the body and there is an even higher transient. These i find a clipper helps a lot taming. So in a sense yes oits a broader mix issue but also i see this pretty often in typical bedroom mixes

[@dom2555]

pointless to clip everything, and instead of mix bus/master bus to shave, it's better to manually lower the single peaks in volume in a spectral editor, avoiding clipping, distortion and aliasing. Also hard clippers are ALL the same, pointless to spend money on it, a free one does the same thing of any other. Soft clipping and wave shaping the bus instead it's a whole different game. The technique to clip into converters like lavry gold etc. has some merit since they soft clip each in their own way. Still, that's something like max 2-3db, not wrecking the whole thing into a converter. (for the software kids ash of acustica audio emulates the clipping behaviors of different converters).

[@APMastering]

i'm just doing what many people are advocating

[@dom2555]

@@APMastering I like your role as scientific debunker of audio mumbo jumbo :)

[@jason.martin]

Facts are Facts and you demonstrated which sounds better hands down. Strange how some are arguing this when what you did is evident of what sounds better, why bother with a clipper :)

[@fcmas]

Do you not know that lightly clipping an A/D converter is a very common and widely used trick. It seems you're so anti-plugin hype, that you're now willing to go against common-use technique ideology, just to make an anti-plugin post...if you need "proof" of my converter clipping claim, it would be only bc you've lived under an audio engineering rock.

[@APMastering]

read the lavry gold manual and get back to me what the graceful overload is called

[@fcmas]

@@APMastering as Sonicscopp pointed out, you're playing this weird game of semantics, and also exaggerating the actual processes to take an anti-clipper plugin stance. What's sad is I truly believe you know full well what you are doing, and it's all being done for your brand. You know about the purposed clipping of a/d converters, and you know it's "losing data," just as you stated you're against, YET you want play the semantics game of terminology, knowing FULL well the universal point of reference. But you've dug into your brand's approach, so it's no longer a shock anymore. There's a reason why it's common for your videos to feature comment sections of professionals criticizing and questioning your content..ands it's not because they're shills.

[@radatabass]

This is why I abandoned the "Clip to Zero" method. Tried it a few times and it sounded like trash.

[@solo943]

Cliping to zero is edm genre specific if u want to get loud to crayzy lvls ... is not meant for soft rock shit or for those who like the sound of big micro dynamic masters .

[@radatabass]

@@solo943 I produce EDM, and while clippers have their place in the genre, the 'clip to zero' method-where a clipper is applied to (almost) every group indiscriminately-doesn't work for all EDM styles. For instance, in Skrillex’s project files, he uses limiters on group tracks, and he's been far more successful than the person who popularized the clip to zero method. I wanted to believe in the method because it makes sense in theory, but I’m still waiting for a successful artist to demonstrate that it works in practice. In my experience, it makes everything sound harsh and digitally distorted, which can be a turn-off for listeners.

[@DaveChips]

If I use clippers I don't use them for transparency 😅

[@AlexLapugean]

I find it interestion that you did not show any settings for the clippers on any channels... I agree it is easy to go overboard and make it sound bad, but the point of clipping to control peaks done by people that actually know what they are doing is to be completely transparent, to be impossible to hear the difference between the normal and the clipped track. If done correctly, the mix should sound virtually the same as the one without clipping, except you have a few dB less in the peak level. Why would that be a bad thing? I can't figure out your point... If you are able to have mix that sounds the same but has lower peaks, you'll be able to push it more with the same amount of limiting, or push it the same and have less limiting. To me it looks like you did a test designed to fail. If you can hear the difference in the mix with the clippers, clearly you've done it wrong.

[@APMastering]

there are no settings aside from a threshold. that's just the gain structure

[@AlexLapugean]

@@APMastering Well I'm not sure what clipper you are using, but most have a few settigns. Either way, even with just the threshhold, that is actually the most important thing, it makes or breaks the clipping process. You really should only be clipping a few samples, so that any distorsion caused by the clipping is extremely short in duration. 5 samples at 48k sample rate for example is about 100 microseconds in duration, and I wouldn't go above that normally, and usually clip even less. You simply cannot hear the difference in sound. In suc a short duration.

[@APMastering]

in part 2 of this clipper series i debunk this and demonstrate how you can hear short transients. also if you think there's more parameters then you don't know what digital clipping is. i'm not talking about saturation i'm talking about straight clipping

[@lusid_music_uk]

Guys look at how bad it sounds when I clip the f***ing s*** out of this mix! See… clippers are bad Yes. Well done. YOU made it sound like crap. What is this argument? 😂

[@APMastering]

ok, then do less clipping and it will sound less shit. or just don't clip and it wont sound shit

[@lusid_music_uk]

@@APMastering or…. Clip just enough so that’s it’s not noticeable. And reap the benefits of consistent less drastic dynamics processing 🤷‍♂️

[@BalazsSalzinger]

so what are supposed to learn from this video exactly? dont clip every track? who the f does that?

[@APMastering]

loads of people advocate for this

[@Veridi]

normal people: spiky drum/master -> clip a couple db -> less spike but sound same you: literally every track of a not spiky song -> clip many db -> audible distortion You're the kinda guy to empty a bottle of sauce on food and say it tastes bad.

[@masonmade4766]

so use clippers to cut very little peaks ?? thats already how we use it the clipper should be doing so little that this video is pointless! just like not using to much compression !

[@APMastering]

i discuss in the end of the video

[@Harrysound]

You have a talent…..for making me watch your videos

[@rootscape7580]

So where is the actual project? It is second your video like “we can make smthg wrong with sound”, but again - no facts, no proves. Genre you choose for comparison is so wrong. The perceptive loudness is not the same between your variants. Also i’m sure, we can achieve both variants by changing only modes of pro l 2. So let us see your project, or admit your incompetence, please. Or maybe you can show us great examples of your clipperless approach in modern music production somewhere on Spotify?

[@APMastering]

Sure I have mastered many thousands of tracks. Some % of those you can see on discogs. My own music you can find under these hidden hands. I LUFS normalised the versions, so you are wrong about loudness. And if you are disrespectful again by calling me incompetent or whatever I will ban you. Disrespect is not tolerated around here.

[@efforia5485]

Limiter change dynamic and change your mix balance so if you want to respect your mix clipping transients without changing the perception on your on individual track during the mix process can massively give headroom and help you to avoid cranking your limiter. In your example you clipp the stereobus so of course you have a bad results.

[@rmselector]

Listener normalization 😆😆

[@daynemin]

The one series i liked was the Baphometrix CTZ, clip to zero playlist. I dont make edm but it was an interesting method for track structure and planning.

[@ergaba08]

You are doing it like someone who doesn’t want to do it properly 😂

[@danyavilaoficial]

That sandwich is rotten !! Hahaha It decomposed the transients of the drum

[@solo943]

Nice try diddy .. 1st - the zero to 10 scale is not linear good to bad scale only bc u say so. 2nd- show the full setup how much of db did u cliped per channel and at what knee setings . 3rd- was the cliper oversampling or not bc that harshnes might be aliasing . 4rth- cliping to zero is a fucking genre based technique and it is specific to Club Dance EDM subgenres not for a shity soft rock or what ever the hell that shity audio was so try and do it properly in the first place then come and give us lessons about what clipers are and what they do .. and if u do want to have a proper argument go invite some top dog like Luca Pretolesi who master for the bigest djs in the industry and have a proper debate and tell them how to get to -3 rms by properly mixing as u say ...

[@APMastering]

"knee settings". don't think you understand what digital clipping is. plenty of rock guys are using clippers all over their sessions anyone who masters to -3db RMS is not doing serious work IMHO

[@solo943]

Yeaa there is a knee on some plugins like v clip for example .u have hard , soft or variable knee options to chose from . Same knee as in a compresor

[@solo943]

So luca pretolesi who do -3 rms most of times is not a serious guy to you? Lol ,you rock guys are to old school thinking but wake up its 2024 try and master some electronic music some time maybe u will get a new prespective ab the industry

[@fernandoortegacomposer]

Misleading and biased.

[@APMastering]

assertions without evidence are dismissed without evidence around here

[@fernandoortegacomposer]

@@APMastering My comment about you trying to take advantage of Justin's followers has been dismissed too... Deleted, to be more specific. But I also said how brilliant your KZbin straty is. That's a good thing.

[@APMastering]

@@fernandoortegacomposer i didn't delete it but if you continue to assume bad faith on my behalf i'll happily ban you

[@PharaohLawLess1]

Ya know…… I never liked clipping that much 🤔

[@jrgroberts]

Sounds dreadful whatever.

[@APMastering]

i think this is a great track and jack did a fantastic job recording and mixing. haters will always hate

[@azurestate]

I’m not against clippers but this a way too much. What about the low end 😂

[@duncan.o-vic]

And again, strawman agruments and setting up tests in a way they prove your bias.

[@APMastering]

provide evidence

[@duncan.o-vic]

@@APMastering You provide evidence! It is your video and your claims. I'm pointing out the obvious from your presentation. I could master the track for you, but you would find whatever subjective reason to dislike it. Pick almost any modern song that sounds better than your example and there's your evidence. You're cherrypicking and exaggerating claims you're trying to disprove, presenting tests outside of context and improperly using the techinique on a mix that barely even requires it.

[@APMastering]

@@duncan.o-vic all you know is assertions

[@duncan.o-vic]

@@APMastering Am I? And what about your videos? Not assertions at all?

[@MEMFISAKA]

*Both sounds harsh & flat...EQ to clipper\limiter to EQ - make no sense, because equlization will rebuild new peaks. Ali G show.*

[@nwbrne]

Honestly, will watch again later. But the clipped version sounded much worse even on my phone speaker. I guess what‘s missing, is the vibe that a limiter can give at the end of the day.

[@APMastering]

i can hear it sounds worse on my phone at 2x speed lol

[@nwbrne]

@@APMasteringI got one of those blown out iPhone speakers, though. 😂

[@APMastering]

@@nwbrne aah. i had an iphone 8 with one speaker blown. you can go into settings and pan everything to the working speaker, in case that helps

[@nwbrne]

I’ll try that out, probably will have to reset for any connected device, right?

[@APMastering]

i don't think it pans the same on bluetooth but i can't remember

[@FredHeinershnits]

Misinformation

[@APMastering]

what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

[@FredHeinershnits]

@@APMastering Absence of Evidence does not mean Evidence of Absence

[@APMastering]

I know. but that doesnt fit here.

[@johnclarke1205]

@@FredHeinershnits What was misinformation? Why wouldn’t you present the evidence the first time? Why not present it after he pointed out you didn’t say anything? you come across as a vindictive or envious bad faith actor.

[@aarongandia5930]

@@FredHeinershnits there were plenty of examples to prove his point. No misinformation here. If you disagree make your own examples to dispute it.

[@TBRNashville]

Jesus. So disingenuous

[@APMastering]

how disingenuous?

[@TBRNashville]

@@APMastering it’s clear you are going for shock value by terribly processing the tracks. Clippers, when used well, can be awesome at RETAINING punch. I’ve gone back and forth between the two and find (and my mastering clients find) that clippers can aid in getting relatively clean volume. Overworking (most) limiters gives me less than ideal results.

[@APMastering]

sure most limiters are terrible. this isnt an argument for clipping though, when you can just use a good limiter and know how to use it optimally.

[@TBRNashville]

There is absolutely a place for both. Some things I prefer a limiter and some a clipper. In masters, a lightish helping of both can be awesome.

[@DjDalePlay]

@panorama_mastering .......

[@APMastering]

i commented on his last vid

[@chrisrevel2801]

That Australian dude is hilarious , skills are poor but the comedy is solid