Model 1881 Trapdoor Forager: Cheap Entertainment for the Troops

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At the suggestion of Colonel J.C. Kelton (Assistant Adjutant-General, Military Division of the Pacific and Department of California), the US Army adopted a 20ga shotgun version of the Trapdoor Springfield in 1881. Built at a truly minimal cost using 1873 actions and condemned .58 caliber barrels bored out to .635 inch (20 gauge), these Model 1881 shotguns had only three new parts (extractor, front sight bead, and screw lug attached to the barrel). A total of 1,376 were made by 1884, and two were issued to each infantry company stationed west of the Mississippi.
The purpose was to give soldiers some recreation and also a way to add some fresh game to the rather stagnant rations of barracks life in the post-Civil-War western Army. They were very well liked, and remained in posts until at least 1900.
Contact:
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[@codyopperman5930]

"How do we feed the troops?" "Give them a shotgun."

[@alexanderstrickland9036]

It’s better than ‘give them the peasants’

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

"Hey Chef, what´s today chow?" "Depends what you get." *Hands Forager*

[@thishonestgrifter]

Give a man steak and you’ll feed him for a day, teach him how to hunt and he’ll eat for the rest of his life.

[@jasonreed1631]

@@thishonestgrifter Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, Give a man a gun and he'll eat as long as he has ammo.

[@mfree80286]

@@alexanderstrickland9036 'let them get pheasants'.

[@IncredibleMD]

JC Kelton: We could do this- Army: Not interested. JC Kelton: - for basically nothing. Army: Interested.

[@ianfinrir8724]

It do be like that.

[@peterturner2339]

As an engineer, when I see the Hoover Dam, the Empire State Building, or a jet engine, I think, "neat!" When I heard Ian say, "they came darn close to doing this on zero monies", I thought "What a marvel of engineering!"

[@thesturm8686]

*swiss disapproval noises*

[@nathanj4194]

I think it’s a Da Vinci quote, “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”

[@genericpersonx333]

What impresses me is that Uncle Sam bothered to spend ANY money on this because as cheap as these things were, they were never going to be cheaper than the muzzle-loaders that most garrisons had before, but Uncle Sam wanted the troopers to have a better hunting weapon, and actually gave it to them. He paid to make these guns, buy the ammunition, ship them all to the garrisons, keep them maintained, and replace them as they were lost or damaged, when he could have just said have an extra barrel of gunpowder and a sack or two of lead shot made by the lowest bidder to put into any old fowling piece you bought yourselves off the passing traders.

[@hymanocohann2698]

Lordy! may the Military rediscover that spirit.

[@genericpersonx333]

@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Well, the idea would be that muzzleloader shotguns were just about the cheapest long-arm in the USA at the time. The USA could have easily found 1,400 or so for not even two bucks a units, and then they'd have had guns without the problem of needing the special cases to work well. Uncle Sam was already sending powder and shot to reload the 20-ga casings, so why not just replace the cases with caps and then you can use most any muzzleloader and if you lost one for whatever reason, a replacement could be had for a song from one of the many passing Americans with an old fowling piece to spare. TV and movies make it look like the West was won with shiny brass, but plenty of Americans were happy to use cheap muzzleloaders well into the early 20th century. Uncle Sam got these guns cheap, sure, but he was still paying more than he to, and that is all the more remarkable to me. Almost brings a tear to my eye to think that our boys in blue were actually getting better than not. :)

[@hbtrustme7196]

My Grandmother may have had one of these. My father mentioned she had a trapdoor Springfield, and there was that time she ran off an intruder with her 20 gauge. It never occurred to me it could have been the same gun. A 20 gauge like this would have been much more useful than a rifle, for a young woman of small stature. She was born in North Dakota in 1881, so she would have been coming of age about the time the army declared these guns obsolete.

[@richardtravalini6731]

Very interesting. You should try to track it down. It's probably sitting in a closet at your cousin's house.

[@FoxtrotFleet]

While you're tracking down that trapdoor Springfield, check the attic for an Arisaka.

[@hbtrustme7196]

@@FoxtrotFleet :D

[@davidfoster5787]

Almost 50 years ago, I was with a friend. We visited his coworker, who owned one of these. Nice weapon.

[@teaser6089]

Do you think you can still find that gun, or has it been sold/lost? Anyhow, this story made my day!

[@user-ct8ef8gi6h]

Here, in Russia we have word "Berdanka", which was originally derived from army's Berdan rifle converted into 20ga. shotgun after adoption Mosin magazine rifle by Russian military. They're very common in early 20th century, so nowadays any bolt-action shotgun we here basically call Berdan gun.

[@molodoy..]

Yeah, and after “Berdankas” there were “Frolovka” the same idea, but mosins converted to bolt action shotguns

[@user-ct8ef8gi6h]

@@molodoy.. And no one is called "frolovka" by this name since late 60s. All frolovkas became berdankas. My great grantfathers was a hunters, my grandfather was a hunter, and my father was a hunter. But first time I heard word "Frolovka" it was in Internet in early 2000s. Before that everyone call Mosin shotgun "berdanka". At least in Western Siberia.

[@user-ct8ef8gi6h]

@@molodoy.. Just try to remember did you ever heard a typical story from some older people like: "When I was a kid we sneak to collective garden to steal some apples. But we make a noise and woke up old garden keeper, who shoot salt right on my buttcheeks with his berdanka". No one ever say frolovka, when they mean generic rifle-based shotgun.

[@paullytle1904]

Im in bosnia and every old gun is a berdanka

[@molodoy..]

@@user-ct8ef8gi6h I dunno i guess it regional thing, tbh i never heard someone refer to refited bolt actions to shotguns as "berdanka". My family is from Ukraine and my father side of family lived in Siberia for a long time

[@RustedCroaker]

Back in the days when the US military budget wasn't more than the rest of the world combined.

[@alexm566]

at the beginning of ww1 the US army was smaller than Greece.

[@terry7907]

Back when the US military wasn’t the rest of the world’s security blanket.

[@RustedCroaker]

@@terry7907 It's not a blanked, it's a leash

[@tacticaltoad1104]

​@@RustedCroakersure keeps them safe😊

[@cf8979]

@@tacticaltoad1104until they discover oil.

[@Brigand231]

"...approximately no money..." That's an amount I can relate to.

[@sleepyrasta14820]

Me too

[@orinjackson975]

Sounds like some of my AR builds

[@genghiskhan6809]

Can’t we all?

[@MichaelJenkins910]

It looks like a genuinely fun little gun to shoot and hunt with. I wouldn't mind owning one--or a reproduction--as a hobby piece.

[@thetruthexperiment]

Oooh, a hobby piece. Well lah-dee-dah! I think I too would like one of these as a “hobby piece”. Oh this ol’ thing? This is just my “hobby piece” ... I’m just messing with you. That cracked me up. Sorry.

[@slowpokebr549]

I agree. I wonder how the action would stand up to modern smokeless shells. Trapdoors are not the strongest action in the world. But, It would still be a handy thing with five pre loaded, black powder shells. Smoking a grouse or a tom turkey would be a pleasure.

[@rumpleman4569]

@@slowpokebr549 as much as I would want to use smokeless, black powder is just so cool in my opinion. Apart frome cleaning it

[@littlebuddyoutdoors]

@keith moore suicide is ba mkay

[@mikeylikesit6588]

Second for a non original for squirrel duty. And maybe some hand throw clays.

[@jarink1]

These days it would take a 10-15 year development program, new design ammo, followed by one or more competitions, bids from different companies, Congressional investigations, etc. only have it all cancelled at the last minute and guns being bought commercially.

[@dbmail545]

My father as a youth in the 1930's had a Krag carbine that had been bored out to shoot .410 2.5" shotshells.

[@williamsample2631]

Okay I'll be the first to ask. Do you have it now or is it still in the family somewhere? I have my father's first shotgun that's why I'm asking. It was just a bolt action JC Higgins but it's still special to me.

[@iansanchez331]

Sounds like something I never knew I wanted. I want a 12ga version of said krag shotgun sounds easier to reload than a 5 shot magazine tube

[@junichiroyamashita]

Trapdoor action is one of my favourite,there is a special kind of pleasure in using a very long rifle,and in using a single shot firearm,a traditional trapdoor combines both.

[@schrodingersgat4344]

I got to run a cadet carbine once. FUN! Once you get the rhythm...It's fantastic.

[@razieldrakis]

I would like to see firearm companies(like Uberti, etc) try to make modern reproductions of this shotgun, but chambered for modern 20 gauge shotshells, preferably with an ejector too.

[@LazyLifeIFreak]

Which would go directly against all the reasoning behind the shotgun.

[@MarvinCZ]

@@LazyLifeIFreak What, are you worried that US Army forts on the American frontier will no longer want it or that the US Army out in the territories, financially constrained after the Civil War, won't be able to afford it? Because that's the reasoning behind the shotgun. The reasoning of modern shooters interested in reproductions of the gun will be diametrically different.

[@Iceman-kr6df]

@@LazyLifeIFreak I don’t see your reasoning? Is it the “spirit” of the gun where it was converted or is your issue with it having an ejector and being chambered in more modern ammo? Plenty of companies do that with repros, it’s more economically viable to chamber a repro in a similar but much more common modern cartridge

[@Shadow_Hawk_Streaming]

Of make the ejector removable should the shooter desire

[@a.h.504]

Trapdoors don't hold up well to strong loads... might be why

[@markstevens4599]

Give a soldier a hare, you feed him for a day. Give a soldier a shotgun, you feed him for the duration of his service.

[@Bird_Dog00]

I would change the second line to "..and he'll spend a month in the brig for shooting up the officer's outhouse."

[@jeffreyroot6300]

@@Bird_Dog00 🤣😂😁

[@travisnearing7416]

There should be a trap door Springfield for every cartridge

[@MegaRazorback]

Well considering the meager funds the US army had after the civil war to do this it was more economical for them to do a small batch of rifle conversions and a bucket load of shells than a lot of conversions and same number of shells plus each outpost only really needed the 2 they were issued as the fort personnel numbers for the one Ian was talking about were tiny, no more than about 100 troops at a time i think and 1300 converted rifles was more than enough to outfit every fort.

[@themilkman6969]

.950 JDJ

[@FnuAw]

This is my favorite episode in a while, not just because the gun is beautiful, but because the whole thing is so wholesome. A good idea that actually got implemented and ended up working out well for everyone involved. What a happy story.

[@milgeekmedia]

Excellent! I'm just 'reading' (audiobook) Douglas C. McChristian's terrific 'Regular Army O!: Soldiering on the Western Frontier, 1865 - 1891' which I highly recommend if you are at all interested in the history of the US Army of this period and theatre. It certainly was a rough time and 'doing things on the cheap' was not just restricted to this gun! :)

[@colbeausabre8842]

And this is the style we would go, Forty miles a day, On beans and hay. In the Regular Army, O!

[@nunyabusiness8538]

i live in the rock island area, it’s crazy to me that one of the best gun auctions in the world is like 5 mins away from me lol i should go get a job there

[@Boredoutofmywits]

I'd been flat broke if I were you. I mean, even more that I actually am.

[@danielwendell542]

Julia's Auction house in Maine is ten minutes from my parent's house, I understand your pain hahah

[@tankacebo9128]

illinois is like a black hole for guns though. you'd probably need ten certifications and a pony to get in the door. Greetings from Iowa!

[@jamescravero]

@@tankacebo9128 Quad Cities area go brrrr. Fellow Iowan.

[@nunyabusiness8538]

@@tankacebo9128 ain’t that the truth lol

[@M.M.83-U]

Now I hope for a match comparison with this and the Greener-Martini.

[@rogainegaming6924]

One can only dream. :(

[@liammeech3702]

Snider-Enfields where also issued with buckshot rounds to camp sentries.

[@timterror251]

These guys truly knew, how to recycle....

[@epauletshark3793]

"That's a great idea, how can we do that with zero moneys?" My life philosophy.

[@Tadicuslegion78]

Quartermaster General’s Office 1880: We’ve finally run out of all the food we had in storage since 1863, now how do we feed them? Random officer: Simple. We don’t. Let’s just give them all guns and make them feed themselves and we can tell Congress we’re saving taxpayers 5 dollars a head which comes out to roughly 98000 dollars saved

[@richardlathrop61]

It also cuts down on food and logistical cost. One less item to ship to the fort. Ship them a shotgun with re loadable shells once and tell them to feed themselves.

[@skans012]

just a few days ago, i was helping a relative sort through his safe and clean up the room. there was an old rifle leaning in the corner, and I asked what it was. he says "not sure, got it when my uncle passed away, it was with his guns. so, we took a look, turns out it was an 1884 trapdoor.

[@ScottKenny1978]

Neat find!!!

[@mattsgrungy]

Ian: "Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to another video on Forgotten Weapons dot com" Me: "No problem" Ian: "I'm Ian McCollum" Me: "Hi Ian" Ian: "Today we're taking a look at {insert weapon name here}" Me: "Sick" *sips tea & gets comfy*

[@andrewleger37]

That is so wholesome! I love it.

[@mriverlands9584]

Maybe Ian could start each video by changing into sneakers and a camouflage cardigan 😄

[@georgegordonmeade5663]

Also, the Army made .45-70 forager rounds for standard Trapdoors as well. The forager cartridges had a hollow wooden bullet fitted filled with bird shot. Neat!

[@tommywills3794]

That's pretty neat, I have an old 20ga break open single shot that was my first shotgun my dad got for me when I was around 9 years old, it holds a very nice pattern. I always loved my 12ga I had but a 20ga is definitely no slouch. I also have a Hopkins and Allen 16ga that belonged to my grandfather with a 30 inch full choked barrel.

[@andrewwoodhead3141]

what I love about Ian's presentations is that there is never one where you ever feel he is anything less than super stoked to be showing you this weapon. Whether it's some secret Nazi wonder rifle, some hunk of junk made by an imbecile up the Kyber, an insane machine gun made from aircraft parts , or the cheapest shotgun ever issued by the US army , Ian struggles to contain his smile. His enthusiasm is infectious . :-)

[@mrtlsimon]

After 1900 strip clubs started appearing outside of military bases and hunting with a single shot shotgun dropped off in popularity as an entertaining pass time.

[@GunFunZS]

Oh before that time it was just straight up brothels...

[@DH-xw6jp]

Sound like you would still need that shotgun to protect yourself from the local predators.

[@deniskozlowski9370]

After 1918 they added tattoo parlors.

[@mrtlsimon]

@@deniskozlowski9370 LOL. I was thinking the same thing. LOL

[@carlost856]

@@DH-xw6jp just keep off the dealership.

[@sam1812seal]

Just a hunch but I think most of these guns were probably used by officers, while the NCO’s were put to training the men in how to advance in line through broken terrain. 😂

[@minuteman4199]

Maybe, but I suspect the officers likely had their own shotguns.

[@richardelliott9511]

@wyomarine I was suspecting the same thing. I have heard of these guns before but with little background info. Am wondering how reliable is your source? Thanks

[@ScottKenny1978]

If these were issued two per company, the officers wouldn't need one at all. There were maybe 5 officers to the company (and more likely 3), and they'd eat with the other officers of the battalion.

[@itsapittie]

Memoirs indicate that officers often had their own shotguns and hunting rifles and would have had little reason to use the one issued for enlisted use. Doubtless some officers were complete a-holes but most of them wouldn't stoop to taking the shotgun meant for enlisted use. The Springfield shotguns were probably kept in the company arms room and would have to be checked out with a permission slip from an officer. An enlisted person couldn't just leave the post on a whim so he'd need a note from an officer both to use the shotgun and to go hunting off-post. Hunting trips were probably a reward for good behavior.

[@Dooper69702]

Nah it was probably a detail for the lower enlisted man feed the company

[@christiansantiago3007]

Whoever builds trapdoor clones should make a 20 gauge. Looks like a neat little rig for blasting birds.

[@larrytorgerson1668]

Remember to use only 21/2" black power loads. No modern smokeless or boom.

[@Luke05050]

Super cool to see reloading kits for these guns issued with them. I would hope that troops could choose different shot for varied purposes for hunting birds/larger game.

[@jeffreyroot6300]

Just mix number four buck with BB shot. Works for most anything!

[@panders55]

I have 1 of the M81 Foragers in my collection. serial 1316, 20 gauge. Thank you for posting this very educational video.

[@thevoxofreason8468]

I'm genuinely taken in by the story of these shotguns. I love old military weapons and I love to hunt...and I think I would love to have one of these in my collection.

[@shootingwithmitch5921]

Great vid (as always), Quick question for you, I have an 1868 Chassepot (probably the gendarmerie version) that has been converted into a Gras at some point then converted again into a 12 bore shotgun with the stock "sporterized". According to its previous owner (my uncle) it was one of a batch that came to the UK. as ballast in a sailing ship. My question is, Would this conversion have been an official thing such as with the 1881 trapdoor, or is it just an effort by some surplus dealer to make an otherwise obsolete rifle into a somewhat more useful shotgun?

[@dustyak79]

Sounds like you have a Bannerman conversion look up Zulu shotgun or Bannerman shotgun. see if it matches

[@Kaboomf]

Probably the latter. I've seen Gras conversion shotguns with Belgian nitro proof marks, meaning the conversion was done in the 1900s for the commercial market.

[@shootingwithmitch5921]

@@dustyak79 Closest I can find to my one is this, though on mine the cocking piece has been cut down so there no longer is any purchase for re-cocking. www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-saleroom.com%2Fen-gb%2Fauction-catalogues%2Fsouthams-auctioneers-and-valuers%2Fcatalogue-id-srso10004%2Flot-507dd3e2-f97f-484e-9c8f-a42100cc4112&psig=AOvVaw3xLxMD6E97Q4UzSN2QDJdh&ust=1605982199205000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCNiXpI3cke0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAf

[@schizoidboy]

The reusable shells remind me of a scene from a Bugs Bunny cartoon I think it was "My Bunny Lies Over the Ocean" where he's being shot at by a Scotsman who immediately chases after the round he shoots at Bugs and misses. He collect the shot bullet remarking "it's been in the family for years."

[@rickcarey4637]

Its my Bunny lies over the sea..www.dailymotion.com/video/x6em2cf

[@richardelliott9511]

Thanks Ian. I am suprized that they had that many damaged guns so early on in production to use as a base for these. I was kind of expecting that maybe the source guns were the earlier 50 70 Alin conversions, guess not...

[@NathanS__]

I hope you cover the snider-enfield one of these days. I know it's not really a "forgotten weapon" but I've always seen it as a neat twin to the Trapdoor.

[@williamjones2027]

When my dad was a teenager in the 1940's he bought a 1873 Trapdoor Springfield at a farm auction. He tried using a .410 shotgun shell in it to shoot a pheasant as the .410 shell will fit inside a .45-70 Trapdoor's chamber (at least it kind of fits, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS, IT'S NOT SAFE and is likely to bulge the brass and could even separate the primer cup from the shell) and the pheasant exploded into a ball of feathers. The long rifled barrel does weird things to the shot pattern. He didn't try that again. So it's interesting to see that the Army was way ahead of him with these conversions.

[@History_Coffee]

Military rations at the time varied but no matter what you got prunes and canned or dried beans with every meal, imagine this diet before the invention of tums and gas-x.

[@therideneverends1697]

you probably got used to the, frankly astronomical fiber content

[@larrytorgerson1668]

I saw one for sale at a locale gun shop/police supply store. It was in the 1200+ range serial number. It is sold now. They take a 2 1/2" black powder shot shell only.

[@exyhing]

Love this the story behind those vintage guns - Ian is great in that - I'm a binge watcher for years now 😁

[@ManiacMediaDirector]

I would LOVE to see you bring guns like this to the range!

[@brucerobert227]

Hey that lug to hold the forearm screw and the bead front are two more part, just sayin' NEAT though!

[@barkebaat]

0:33 - "...in the west, by which I mean anything west of the Mississippi River." As a curious Norwegian boy I was wondering what that might actually entail, so I followed the Mississippi on Google earth from New Orleans to ... what... wait ?? This is preposterous ! Now you're just taking the piss ... The world's most insane river.

[@jeffreyroot6300]

Check out the Amazon River, it’s equally insane!

[@ScottKenny1978]

Yep. France had no clue how much land they sold the US in the Louisiana Purchase.

[@wes326]

Follow the Missouri, I think it is longer.

[@ben501st]

Imbel did something similar with 1894 Mausers for commercial sale. They're cut down and converted to 36 (.410) and 28 gauge shotguns. Quite fun to shoot.

[@Bloodreign137]

This was incredible cool! I love that they were able to change up their diet, I’m assuming cut food costs, and have something to do all pretty inexpensively without things they already had. The metal shotshells that can “be used indefinitely” are particularly cool imo

[@aarone6071]

When gun jesus give you history lesson more than you learn at school

[@williamsample2631]

Or at least a more interesting history lesson. Some of us grew up in a time when school actually taught something but, his classes are shorter and a hell of a lot more interesting!

[@CliftonHicksbanjo]

Would love to have a 20-gauge trapdoor Springfield.

[@missingthe80s58]

I wish you knew someone who owns a Trapdoor Marksman's rifle, that would be a fun forgotten Trapdoor to talk about.

[@mrfancypanzer549]

A lot of Norwegian Remington rolling blocks were converted from 12.17x44 to 16 gauge, i guess it was a fairly common practice.

[@Gungeek]

and 20ga :)

[@mrfancypanzer549]

@@Gungeek I have only seen 16 gauge myself, probably because 16 has historically more popular in Europe. I'm a bit Surprised you would know that, though i haven't seen all your videos.

[@Gungeek]

@@mrfancypanzer549 well i have a swedish one in 20ga :)

[@55vma]

After WWII, Commonwealth factories produced .410s on the SMLE action. Australian Lithgow were marketed as Slazenger. Accordingly to Lithgow Small Arms Factory, 6800. 🇦🇺🇦🇺😷😷🇦🇺🇦🇺

[@51WCDodge]

That is a a very practical pice of equipment.I'd love to own one.

[@tomtruesdale6901]

Very interesting shotgun. That could never happen today as it would be 5 years in a study, 2 years for the bidding and 7 years for the legal fight from the losers and by then the troops would have starved to death or gone out and bought on their own dime what they wanted/needed in the first place. Been there done that

[@moosemaimer]

Too bad that ammo wasn't sent into the trenches instead of paper shells.

[@filadelfozuniga3411]

@The Thot Police if you are in an even fight, you are at disadvantage

[@NBSV1]

When in war production and quantity is important. Paper shells were cheaper and easier to produce in large numbers. These make sense in small quantities when they have time to reload them. In the trenches it’s better to have many paper shells than a few metallic shells that would need reloaded.

[@richardtravalini6731]

Morale of the story, take care of your ammo and it won't let you down. I've had some of those WW I shotshells and they were pretty heavily lacquered. You would have to swim across the Rhine to make them not shoot.

[@Moonhermit-]

@@richardtravalini6731 That's kinda underplaying the sheer dampness of the trenches. Storing anything in those trenches meant that, unless it was fully sealed in a metal container, moisture would seep through. Not only from rain and snow, but also fog, ground water, air humidity, etc. Those shells could handle getting splashed with water once or twice, no problem if you wiped them off. But if you have them in your ammo pouch or in crates for weeks before you actually had to use them, then the moisture all around would have had time to seep through any small crack or opening in the porous paper. The shell would probably not even look or feel damp on the outside, but the powder inside would be wet.

[@MarvinCZ]

@The Thot Police But nobody else used paper cartridges in the trenches, only the trench shotguns did, and it was a definite disadvantage.

[@enderlord5412]

That's a pretty neat piece of history

[@ALswampfox]

Btw the cheap route is still the Army standard

[@MrSplic3r]

[Laughs in USMC]

[@southjerseysound7340]

I've got one of these that's been in my family since around 1902. When my grandfather (it was his father's gun)told me about it he claimed that it's the only thing that the army has ever made a profit from because they were so cheap to make and provided a lot of food and rabbit fur.

[@arandomfawn5289]

2:51 "how can we do it with zero money? *cries in Bradleys*

[@coolcoolercoolest212]

Who is Bradleys?

[@arandomfawn5289]

@@coolcoolercoolest212 the m2 and m3 bradley apcs (and variants) . A project worth billions which was delayed and remade dozens of times resulting in a vehicle that, fully upgraded, weights more than an m1 Abrams.

[@arandomfawn5289]

@@coolcoolercoolest212 has 25mm of armor and a 20mm autogun . Can have inside 8 to 9 people , depending on the type

[@2adamast]

Meanwhile "During the Gulf War, M2 Bradleys destroyed more Iraqi armored vehicles than the M1 Abrams."

[@2adamast]

@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Don't know the exact number but 60 times seems little as the total is 3,300 tanks and 2,100 APCs destroyed

[@troy9477]

I remember hearing about these some years back, probably via Gary James. Seems like a great idea that was easily and cheaply accomplished. Rare for any govt entity anymore. I would love to have a modern Trapdoor repro, like the ones H&R made in the 70's. And i need a 45-70 anyway. Great video as always. Thank you

[@iainsmith6643]

For you single barrel shotgun fans if you can't afford something like this I just bought a Baikal 18 made in the USSR. £10 . It's a bit scruffy but it works. Today's cheap and cheerful.

[@johnnybaughman7593]

How ingenious they figured out how to do that

[@vicarus2728]

Ahh, the army. Can't supply they're troops with food or ammo for hunting but can give them a tonne of vinegar to clean the gun shells

[@mfree80286]

Vinegar was one of things that was useful even though a lot of the time it was produced by accident.

[@dbmail545]

Hot, soapy water is what you clean black powder guns with. Acetic acid(vinegar) does nothing to neutralize the nitric and sulfuric acids in the residue. Where did you hear that myth about vinegar?

[@mfree80286]

@@dbmail545 On the frickin' box of ammunition that he just showed you.

[@Gungeek]

@@mfree80286 HAHAHAHA

[@jansenart0]

20ga is great for turkey and other game birds. Not sure what they'd be taking out in any outposts in the Rockies though...

[@jansenart0]

@Mr. Shlock I wasn't saying they were, I just didn't think the turkey's range extended that far. I could be wrong.

[@supersami7748]

Do we have a record of the actual cost of this conversion? The only article I have ever seen on this firearm was years ago and the author stated it was well under 10.00 per firearm. Another great vid!

[@ronschramm9163]

Stingy is being kind, Ian. For one 6 month period, the Congress held up an appropriations bill and the US military did not get any pay.

[@TheTrimed1]

I'm revisiting my childhood and am going to binge F Troop

[@travisnearing7416]

Thanks Ian!

[@ElCrab]

Ian: I’d actually guess the unloaded shells wasn’t actually due to cheapness (though that was quite common when supplying the frontier army), but actually so that soldiers could load the shells specifically for the game they intended on foraging. And an interesting side note: a letter exists from a trooper in the Seventh asking his parents to let him know what a Dexter Smith shotgun might cost, as he would want one, depending on the price, before their next campaign. He was killed at Little Big Horn about a year later, and I’ve always hoped to find out whether he got his shotgun. Just one example of a trooper on the frontier taking foraging matters into his own hands some years before the Army decided to issue these.

[@MichaelJones-tk4xt]

I am definitely would love to own one because I am a huge 20 gauge,16 gauge and 28 gauge shotgun fan

[@timhofstetter5654]

It's not the black powder that makes those shells infinitely reloadable without resizing. I get that quality in my all-brass #12 shotgun shells today using moderately heavy smokeless powder charges. The all-metallic shells just never elongate nor shrink from firing. If they're always used in one shotgun, they never need resizing. Just never star-crimp or roll-crimp them. Instead, top them with an overshot card and waterglass it into the case.

[@morganahoff2242]

1:47 "Don't buy what you can make, and don't make what you can find!"

[@1TruNub]

Last time I was early, the US Army was still using trapdoors

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you ,Ian .

[@googesowders8622]

Great clips . You answer ever question I will think of. ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[@Ashfielder]

That’s a good idea actually. I’m sure today’s armies would appreciate some fresh food and a bit of plinking for fun.

[@shatbad2960]

What a beauty! The guns not bad either.....

[@chapiit08]

I've seen military rolling block actions with shotgun barrels, I wonder if some other armies did the same in other countries or they were simply converted to be sold to the public. I own a 1871 Mauser marked Danzig that was converted to 16 gauge in Belgium to be sold in the Southern hemisphere, neat gun.

[@WalksWithNoFear]

Looking forward to a November Q&A episode in the few days.

[@dwaneanderson8039]

I wonder if they ever tried loading a .58 cartridge with shot and firing it out of a regular Trapdoor rifle? It's close to the size of a 24 gauge. I know the rifling would make for a wide shot pattern, but it might be usable.

[@tulsatrash]

Thank you.

[@spinnyboi6700]

binge watching forgotten weapons videos then i see another one has been posted, very nice

[@fb97e4ad]

Any more info on fielding of this gun? Issued two guns to each infantry company, 25 infantry regiments x 12 companies = 600, plus ten cavalry regiments x 10 companies (no, they were not called troops until decades later) = 100, totaling fewer than half those manufactured. This is the entire strength of the US Army after 1866 (excluding a couple artillery and coastal artillery regiments) , not just those on the frontier. Where did the rest go? I wonder if they're sitting in a warehouse someplace and some guy has to inventory them quarterly.

[@jameshagerman7681]

Wonderful, another oddball shotgun that I now want.

[@shawnr771]

Very cool idea. Nicely implemented.

[@311jbknight]

I can see the post Sargent giving a soldier the shotgun a 2 shells. And sure enough the same one or 2 idiots would loose the empty shells. Probably have to send 2 man teams. Shotgunner and ammo carrier to account for the shells.

[@Phos9]

Considering the zero budget nature of this project, I find myself wondering if someone over the years mistook the filled in cleaning rod holder for a patch over a gouge and refinished it.

[@connormclernon26]

Have you ever been to the NRA Museum in Northern Virginia? While I disagree with some of their politics, I can't deny they have a pretty good museum dedicated to the history of the firearm.

[@connormclernon26]

@Mr. Shlock Asking Ian that question, but I suppose it could be an in general question

[@connormclernon26]

@Mr. Shlock It's a legitimate question and I'm curious if he has or has not. I do not recall him ever mentioning doing so.

[@iflystuff1]

I would totally use that today. Can you imagine taking that thing turkey hunting or trap shooting.

[@jerryjohnsonii4181]

Very interesting Trapdoor Rifle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@k-h2664]

Can you determine the year of adoption of the first rifle ever to use the copper cartridge?

[@trooperdgb9722]

Late comment... BUT... While I have little doubt "economy" was the main consideration, there IS I think one definite advantage to loading cartridges "onsite" for such guns. With the variety of locations of the Army Forts (and therefore the variety of different GAME available in each location) wouldn't it have been a good thing to be able to tailor the ammo loaded FOR the local game? Just a thought.

[@nichevo1]

So the wood fitting in the stock to plug the groove for the ramrod could be considered a fourth manufactured part. Perhaps finish carpentry or joining or stocksmithing? of that nature is just a day at the beach for the 1880s armorer, but today that will cost you some. It would seem agreeable for it to be viably a mass produced part that would fit appropriately the first time with little or no work or putty required, though I presume it is glued. Classy! Is the hole for the missing bead site through and through? Will a minor amount of venting be done as with a ported modern shotgun? Are these quite satisfactory as to strength?

[@machintelligence]

Probably superior to loading the 45-70 case with wads and shot and firing it in a carbine, but I bet that was done too. Did the new barrels include a choke? These were produced just as choke boring was invented.

[@camryhunt8673]

That’s a picnic gun.

[@WolfRichter337]

Well everyone knows how things go when folks have nothing to do and access to military grade equipment so that`s a good decision on the part of the army

[@bryceforsyth8521]

What do you mean?

[@TheHacknor]

@@bryceforsyth8521 Bored soldiers roaming the countryside wasting their ammunition on a game or finding things to do, giving them hunting guns gives them practice and entertainment on the cheap

[@patrickturner6878]

@@TheHacknor In Iraq and Afghanistan all kinds of interesting firearms pop up now and again for troops to shoot.

[@WolfRichter337]

@@TheHacknor also it keeps them off alcohole and doing dumb things to each other

[@bryceforsyth8521]

@@TheHacknor Well OP did say "military grade equipment", which sounds irrelevent if that's the case.

[@azimus1776]

Definitely a much more interesting and legit forgotten weapon than the PPS 43 or something like that

[@timbaskett6299]

Like to see a modern incarnation of this "conversion". They make modern trapdoor rifles.

[@richardtravalini6731]

I once owned a Joslyn 1864 12 gauge conversion. Have you ever come across one of those? It was a similar concept although not associated with the US military so far as I know. But you would know better. I wish our government had that type of frugality today.

[@alanhope1190]

Hi Ian, have you done a video on the unauthorized Colt cap & ball copies made by Manhattan Arms?

[@krisskringle920]

last time i was THIS early paper cartridges were still being used

[@kenhelmers2603]

Very cool!