Modern Software Engineering

[@ThePrimeagen]

rizz em with the tism

[@rachelcasey1449]

It'd work on me

[@smddev]

Where would I even find a seven-piece anonymous alternative rock band? Melbourne, Australia??

[@HappyCheeryChap]

​@@smddevthis is serious mum!

[@Mel-mu8ox]

Was this AI generated?

[@sir_jordan]

@ThePrimagen I started to use neovim 2 days ago after watching your videos

[@Louisianish]

"It creates a lot of work and no results. We actually call that 'modern software engineering.'" 😂

[@deskjawi]

ooh! (⁠*⁠’⁠Ｏ⁠’⁠*⁠)

[@lazyman2451]

Fuk that explains why I scrap half way through development 😂

[@ronnycoding]

lol jajaja

[@tegathemenace]

Ouuuu😮

[@PiotrPavel]

Can i Quote this in my job?

[@CodeConstellations]

What on earth is with Prime's eyes. Prime either has Neuralink with a built in filter or is possessed.

[@t3hSurge]

Some AI or something grrgrr

[@cr0nus01]

@CodeConstellations this stream was an irl stream he did with someone called SushiDragon who does a bunch of camera effects during stream. This was just a filter out on prime while he was speaking

[@hexisXz]

Or both

[@justinhaase8628]

Just the average blue eyed individual

[@theultimatejack3360]

He has Kiroshis

[@smnkumarpaul]

That is the best description for UML Diagrams ever. Our teachers believed that,it is how softwares are developed. I have never used it in my 6 years of work experience.

[@diynevala]

I have sometimes used it in my 24 years of work experience. It was more important when we did not have such nice IDE's and there were sometimes hundreds of DB tables created in the 80's... sith got messy, UML's made it visually digestible.

[@smnkumarpaul]

@@diynevala That is absolutely understandable. Sadly most projects does not bother to invest in creating a ULM or Entity Relationship Diagrams making it a nightmare to work on the DBs. There have been many times, I have to dig through piles of code to get an understanding of it.

[@diynevala]

@@smnkumarpaul It is also super cool to see hundred lines connected to "Product" - ok there are some foreign keys with products.. :D

[@MrKasenom]

As a student, do you use other kinds of diagrams? Or how do you visualize the project before starting

[@diynevala]

@@MrKasenom on complicated protocols a sequence diagram can be helpful - if not for you, at least for the colleague you are trying to explain it.

[@heartofcode5372]

That's the sweetest person you are talking to "oooh :)"

[@alst4817]

Why say sweet when you mean dumb?

[@liran8799]

​@@alst4817 are you so unhappy with your life that you insult a random person for nothing

[@jurxzy]

​@@alst4817Not knowing much about software engineering = dumb?

[@transformersloverjon]

​@@alst4817No, you have it backwards. _She_ is condescending to _him_ because he is neuro-divergent and she is neuro-typical. She's not being dumb, she's just choosing to not engage very deeply with someone else' special interest that she does not share.

[@nathanreed4705]

As a guy with a masters in software engineering I have to say that I have never felt more attacked

[@theprovego2934]

Is it that useless tho?

[@nathanreed4705]

@@theprovego2934 did get me a job so wasn't for me at least

[@Dremth]

​@@theprovego2934It's useless in the same way that a blueprint is useless if you want to build a house. The blueprint alone isn't going to build the house, but it sure is nice to have when you've got 30 different people trying to build the same house.

[@cryam6428]

@@Dremth Or when your the 7th person to live in the house 20 years after construction and something needs replacing. And you realize oh wait there should be a door here.

[@FilterChain]

​@theprovego2934 not at all, I was the lead dev right out the gate with the knowledge from my degree, I was the first to pioneer the microservices approach at my company and was the first to do many things I completely disagree with what he says

[@sir_jordan]

and then we got bad reactions from our lecturer when these squares didn't have round edges and the arrow heads aren't filled properly

[@sultanhanga]

Why this is giving me flashbacks

[@skilz8098]

I'd write on the test One Big Box: This is a Worthless Waste of Time.

[@himalczyk258]

So true!

[@stevez5134]

around 2009-2010, on macOS I literally couldn't figure out how to get the triangles or arrows to show up properly and I had to draw them in, god forbid I had to go back and change the design, it would be another day of work drawing everything in manually. and I still couldn't get it right. I know today I could probably just use ChatGPT.

[@lokosstratos7192]

@@stevez5134 tbh using chatgpt introduced me to more errors i could ever imagine XD

[@hcn6708]

CS Major here and we learned that stuff in Databases and Software Engineering Can't imagine 3 years of that

[@gggggggggg44100]

Bro, I was like why does this just sound like database management course.

[@StinkyCatFarts]

@@gggggggggg44100 because UML stands for universal modelling language

[@notuxnobux]

Its the type of shit you learn in school but then in a real job never use

[@codewithegai]

I learned it in my third year in university.

[@JamesMcCormack-pn5rn]

@notuxnobuxyou would if you were a database administrator or worked in some sort of database building role but that’s super specialized and never something a regular dev or software engineer would need to know.

[@elbaraaabuaraki327]

you forgot to say "I worked at Netflix btw"

[@randerins]

such an unflex

[@mohamedaityoussef9965]

no longer

[@eihodge]

Even just letting her know he uses arch would probably be good enough

[@MSDMSD-d8b]

i use neovim btw

[@BorisMagoo-v7w]

just making sure that this was pointed out.

[@hextech687]

Prime's eyes look like he's turning to the Sith.

[@myPrzeslaw]

You know, there are some consequences of leaving Netflix.

[@0xACAB]

Skill issue

[@jt-moneyHockey]

@@0xACAB def skill issue

[@levmedvedev]

I believe that he's chopped some trainee software engineers with a lightsaber 😵

[@hextech687]

@@levmedvedev He went into whatever bootcamp is pushing Javascript for the backend and killed all the younglings.

[@Dmitri_Ivanovich]

Accurate description of my year 3 database paper.

[@rammrras9683]

I'm afraid I'm going to dream about relational algebra tonight

[@ToveriJuri]

They are somewhat useful for databases.

[@_keano]

wait, UML diagrams was among the first thing we learned in CS, I can't imagine having to learn this during a masters

[@TYNEPUNK]

masters in sw engineering at least in the uk is like a catch up for non coders, they do a much simpler degree than an undergrad. they do say 18 months in basic coding, i was teaching it while i was an undergrad. sw masters is suprisingly not impressive. hence i decided to do a different one, i wasnt even allowed because i knew it all from my batchlers, its literally not allowed.

[@joaoph9391]

What I understand from what he is saying is that all work done on the masters theoretical. And "no results" = not applying the job. Just like most grad programs, unless you end up building a prototype, considering it would take A LOT of computational power to test, most cases people just don't.

[@tsunami870]

Completely useless concept

[@w花b]

Well you basically have to catch up really quickly unlike undergrad. It's feasible though as long as you have some programming experience. It's really hard if you have zero experience.

[@himalczyk258]

Been there, draw that stuff. But this conversation is just pure gold. “What would that create?” - JUST POINT ON 😂

[@Lastninjaxoxoxoxox]

Been there, drawn that

[@GRAYgauss]

Me, literally choking on design rn 😭

[@dough-pizza]

Software engineering rizz 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@tormentedzeus2755]

Gives a new meaning to entity relationship

[@jpviscaino]

The fact that he just mentioned undergrad level stuff is the cherry on top

[@Prince_Luci]

Bro looks like he was built by the Tyrell corporation.

[@kkiimm009]

I did more programming during my master than my bachelor. I did those diagram things during my bachelor. Stil a waste of time compared to having worked those two years. Especially since I don't work with what I specialized in.

[@dsrogersjr]

It's where you learn the tools, techniques, and practices to build quality software. That you will then throw out the window because your "agile" team needs to deliver all the features, on an exact release date, all at once because all features are the top priority

[@DebugDave]

hahaha "A lot of work and no results". Accurate AF

[@mr.k8660]

I dream of a girl listening to me like that

[@vroomerlifts]

real

[@HappytreeLuis]

Just go up to a random girl and infodump on her. It'll work, trust me.

[@radioJim]

Computer science master's student here, and he's not exaggerating. Like, at all. If you want to learn anything useful while you're in school, you really need to have personal projects!

[@rdom9680]

Huh, I had 1 or 2 modules in my first year of uni that used UML and made ER diagrams, I think that's got to do with your course in particular. But I do agree about personal projects really helping you apply what you learn.

[@SebastianGrignoli]

This guy is a standup programmer. I would go to his show anytime if he puts one up in my city.

[@ábel-baka-nagy]

Or you can just watch him on Twitch

[@Kira_x86_64]

UML!!!! I can handle discrete math and compiler theory but when the proffesors pull out UML my soul dies and I zone out.

[@ethanwasme4307]

sounds like someone went into comp sci with no hobbyist experience and eyes on the money 😂😂

[@Kira_x86_64]

@@ethanwasme4307 Actually you would be surprised, I don't really care about the money. I really only care about optimization and making stuff go fast. Even before university I would sit around and look at the assembly code generated by gcc and try to figure out what I can do different to get more cache hits. For me computer science has always been about the computer and I find UML to be a waste of time that slows down my (and my peers) production speed and results in less performant code due to over abstraction. Long winded but I don't know where you were going with your comment but it just seems a bit rude.

[@datboi1861]

​@@ethanwasme4307You really saw "I can handle discrete math and compiler theory" and still ended up at that conclusion. How?

[@antt1810]

​@@ethanwasme4307who the fuck would draw UML diagrams as a hobby?

[@AlexDo2]

I like uml more than discrete tbh

[@minastaros]

good diagrams can enormously help understanding the bigger picture, if they are seen as sketches. They are good to identify boundaries and unwanted dependencies, but they are not a religion. It just depends, sometimes the problem is simple so that one can immediately start coding, the other time better draw a high-level sketch first.

[@mattdoestechstuff]

At least most people are not still trying to generate code from those diagrams too anymore..

[@spoonikle]

I am sure Mermaid chart is working on it using LLM’s

[@StarryNightSky587]

*ModelBasedSystemEngineering entered the chat*

[@daves.software]

I'm sure IBM is still trying.

[@dasdasdasdasdasdasdas3720]

tell that to my company

[@blarghblargh]

The fact that you can't generate the diagrams from the code and get an easily followable chart goes to show that it's not really well mapped to the task at hand.

[@nizuli1347]

He literally called creating table "drawing squares" 🐢

[@hephestosthalays2700]

I can't believe how powerful that moustache is

[@Robin_Goodfellow]

I've never used UML at work. I have, however, used database diagrams to generate SQL tables to great effect.

[@SimonHuggins]

UML wasn’t around when I did my Software Engineering bachelors. I learned something even more meaningless called Z. It was aptly named. I learned UML later and failed to use it slightly less than Z, but not by much. I opted for boxes and pointy arrows instead (or an indented list) which most people seem to understand better and are thus a much better communication tool.

[@echoawoo7195]

Aggregate and composite aren't relationship schemas. Aggregate is a collection function and composite describes creating an object property with some other type.

[@Fernando-rc8rw]

Thanks for the information 🤓☝️

[@jordanmatthew6315]

Prime showing us facts that a CS Degree is worthless when you have RL experience and just do shit; based bro.

[@g0dzilla_au]

The guy who taught me UML made sure we knew how to so it real well, and then promptly told me outside of class that he'd never used it in industry but had to teach it.

[@JakePIXL]

Prime gives me the vibes of being a character off of parks and rec

Dijkstra said it best: "Software Engineering is how to program if you cannot."

[@Smrtnyk]

This guy is made of sarcasm I absolutely love it

[@kasper369]

This clips is amazing in all ways, his eyes glowing, chat in BG,

[@kneza96BG]

Was that the beautiful wife he keeps talking about?

[@toast_dev]

No - sushidragon’s wife

[@yajobaby]

Kolega

[@vulkanosaure]

But is UML actually bad ? I would have thought it's a good idea to take the time to formalize the structure in an abstract and standardize form

[@rdom9680]

The bad part about UML is that 1. you spend too long making and discussing diagrams 2. they may not account for any issues or requirement changes that may occur. In other words, people have meetings discussing these diagrams, then something changes or goes wrong and they're back to discussing the diagrams, not too much work gets done. Of course it isn't always like this, but it happens enough for most people to abondon the idea almost entirely. If you want to see for yourself, I recommend picking a project (can be a small project) that has fixed and completely known requirements and trying to use UML, this would be absolute best case scenario for it. I personally never found it very useful.

[@fullstackplus]

@@rdom9680 That's how the standard "Agile" soundbite goes. In reality: 1) no-one said you have to spend TOO LONG making diagrams 2) changing something is WAY easier if you already had spent some time up-front designing it 3) UML isn't just for cases that have fixed and completely known requirements. It's for resolving fundamental relationships between data. Now some teams for sure have treated UML as some kind of must-have ritual - these aren't much better than the "Agilists" that think the only way software is made is going "clickety-clack" on your keyboard because "you can always change it later".

[@rdom9680]

@@fullstackplus That's why I qualified my comment so much, just because I said UML wasn't helpful to me, doesn't mean it isn't helpful at all. I find that your changes argument goes both ways depending on what change it is, my claim was just that UML can become very specific to the point where it may require significant time spent designing, whether that saves or costs time depends from case to case. I was also careful to say that a situation with known requirements is the "best case scenario", so if someone wants to give UML a try, it's good to start from there - if you don't like it at its best, you won't at its worst.

[@chaboi685]

So software engineering is essentially just my 102 software design class. Plus extra years.

[@alejrandom6592]

I like category theory so giving names to stuff and drawing arrows sounds like fun!

[@timwhite1783]

I have actually occasionally needed diagram to think through a design. Funny thing is i dont even bother making sure it is "correct" UML. All that matters when im doing this is that I understand what im drawing. So it can be useful in a way. Honestly these days its pretty rare I get something at work that is this complex though.

[@iddiiddrisu5971]

😂 this is the first KZbin short i have enjoyed. ❤

[@jamesm.9285]

I just love the final semi-curious, enthusiastic, "oooh :)"

[@ImNotSoLegit]

As a current MSCS student taking a database design course, this one really hit home.

[@gmodrules123456789]

UMLs were supposed to outline the high level architectural design. They were never supposed to be used to create objects or classes, but just to describe services and modules.

[@stevez5134]

I remember being in the same class as masters students. It seemed like they were more likely to know how to actually draw a UML diagram or know what JDBC is (it's kind of biased isn't it?) but not know how to actually save a file or move it to a different location.

[@xyola]

These days software is hard to maintain because enginners dont want to do documentation

[@DKLHensen]

This is me… primeagen is our hero, he gets it. Protect this prototypical man at all cost

[@nikkehtine]

this feels AI generated like why does he have anime eyes

[@doodidood]

This does explain why I've never seen any software that has any kind of structure... We call it "historic growth" or even "hysteric growth" if it goes out of control

[@robbiedavey2439]

To get a degree in Software engineering, its very similar except you draw different shaped triangles and connect them with different words such as AND, OR, XAND and XOR

[@gtxp1396]

That sounds like a bachelor level of software engineering

[@yaritebaba]

Thanks for explaining that. I once interviewed a person who had a bachelors and masters in comp sci. They also had one years work experience developing with php on linux. I was asking basic questions and they didnt know, so i kept scaling the questions back, until i go to the point where i asked what linux distribution they used to develop on at their last role. They couldn't even tell me that, all they knew was they used phpstorm ide. So clearly those university qualifications are worse than used toilet paper.

[@GonzoEnt]

Congratulations, you found one of the students that BS'ed their way through ( with possibly with the minimum grade possible) two degree programs and possibly had no major interest in the discipline. As a current student in a related discipline, I agree there are some gaps in what is taught vs what is needed. I would have likely answered at least half your questions before I started for a degree. You just had a bad candidate which is not representative of the whole.

[@8cyl6speed]

its like a couple assignments in one course man

[@Rachen1992]

"Creates a lot of work and no results" Does the Primeagen work where I am at?

[@onlyme0349]

thats like the description for every desk job tho

[@Rachen1992]

@@onlyme0349 what do you consider a desk job?

[@AmandaVieiraMamaesouCult]

As a data engineer, I actually use E-R diagrams to map what I need to do in warehouse migrations.

[@syundown6005]

That is probably the funniest description I have ever heard for database design 😂

[@just4fun607]

he cut 'i work at netflix btw'

[@TYNEPUNK]

lolz yep

[@greyalice]

"Creates a lot of work and no results." Can't tell if I'm laughing or crying.

[@huubeijndhovenvan7177]

Do you mean you can get a master of engineering degree in the USA by finishing just one first year subject of a Dutch or German university of technology program? Really?

[@vandermannmusic]

That was literally also just my first bachelor semester in my software engineering studies in Denmark haha.

[@shreddedtwopack6625]

@@vandermannmusicchill out chill out. The US is completely dominating you in software and technology. Don’t talk shi to us all high and mighty.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

The American university system is pretty janky, so the answer is actually, "probably."

[@vandermannmusic]

@@shreddedtwopack6625 Didn't mean it as talking shit. I apologize if that is how it sounded.

[@paschikshehu7988]

There are one year master degrees, they are supposed to be more business-oriented or more practical, whereas the two year masters are proper degrees but mostly theoretical in nature.

[@FilterChain]

Design patterns and uml is critical for any high level architecture, you will need to learn it if you are going beyond just building business requirements ... you are constantly using these designs in c#, spring boot and any other softwares you piggy back on. You need a deeper understand to get what they did MVC is literally a chin of responsibility, facade and observer mix and it works well and is easy to use , replicate aka Make APIs

[@chicahaga]

Thats it I’m definitely not going for the masters now. I’m so done with that shiii. Thanks for saving me 2-3 years 😂😂

[@codingrules]

I remember that being a part of one course.

[@michaelholopainen2822]

What he trying the descripbe is UML language that is used to DESIGN software. And if he actually knew what he was talking about, he would know that you can actually automatically generate the software code from than design. Just like experience and skilled contruction worker can eyeball stuff and get it done fast and well without elaborate design drawings. But there are buildings you do want to competent engineer to have made designs for.

[@codemadesimple1043]

I started the masters degree a while back and after one semester I felt like I was wasting my life on something useless. It was very theoretical and impractical. I got good grades but still dropped out…

[@426F6F]

The "ooohh" at the end after the punchline 😭😭😭

[@tttm99]

I learned my rounded rectangles during higher learning but my squares with arrows on the job 😂

[@kipchickensout]

oh yeah, in practice in 6 years only seen once and it wasn't a clear type of UML diagram, it was a mixed bag of different non-standard things drawn to make things visual but still items from UML

[@junioraos4074]

That drawing is good to outline the first day of coding. But just the first one.😂

[@jpbeckner7980]

don't get it is the masters degree after the college degree? There UML comes only on masters degree? In Brasil UML is in the basics of any IT college

[@ibrahimhegazi3955]

Isnt that the UML Diagrams chapter in any SWE book out their???

[@Michael-Martell]

A lot of work with no results. We call that modern software engineering. Spoken like a true master!

[@uFamous_Breakfast1792]

the only thing that make his words rizzable is that mustache

[@Hamachingo]

That’s like in the middle of the Bachelors degree.

[@perarneng]

Many microservices architectures fail because people don’t understand the domain and don’t slice the system at the right boundaries. This causes chattiness and it becomes a distributed monolith. To avoid this you create a domain model that everyone can understand and approve. After that you slice your system up in microservices. The best tools to use here is boxes with names and relationships. Usually following the UML standard. Not understanding this whole concept of domain modelling and how important it is makes the whole software industry filled with systems that are dead on arrival. If you don’t fully understand the domain then it’s very hard to build a great software architecture. It’s also important that the stakeholders which are often non technical domain experts can validate the domain model. It’s very hard if they have to read code to do that.

[@oeaoo]

Rounded corners in UML squares, where are you?

[@sullivan3503]

I think it's unfortunate how much hate diagrams get in CS. In every other field of engineering, their usefulness is accepted. I've created many useful diagrams for my work. They help clarify the conceptual structure of a system.

[@Anteksanteri]

software is entirely conceptual. code is the description already. refining the code is refining the description, so translating from diagrams to systems is not useful for getting anything shipped. everything is comprised of specifics. diagrams might help maintenance but knowing how to debug offers way more. these are just some musings though. no strong opinion.

[@mehrshadzand7942]

he was about to say "Nothing" for "what would that create?"

[@MadGenious]

UML diagrams are rarely ever used for software development.. But they are used alot in Database Development.

[@sleepyelk5955]

best description ever 😂 not only, that it produces nothing, it must most likely changed completely, becausnit does not work in the wild and you see the problems only, when you actually implement it ...

[@ace90210ace]

Lol that ain't masters that's pre bachelor's degree. I didn't do full masters but I was on some masters units in my final year of bachelors and I wish it was something as pointless but easy as a uml and some data normalisation. No what it is is learning some niche advanced concepts and implementing them, like writing a sift object detection algorithm from scratch or 3d collision detection in a 3d game using sat and Oct trees, or writing network mapping, analysing and monitoring tools from scratch to analyse the results and work out network routing of packets.

[@redcomet918]

give me a solution where I can code those diagrams out to generate them instead of messing with 00's-UX software and I'll CONSIDER messing with UML

[@MA-yy8nd]

Love u Prime. Can confirm his words are facts

[@brutusthebuttress1476]

Creating a blueprint for a house also takes a lot of work with no results, we call it ALGORITHMS

[@ProSkateMs]

What master is that? I did that first year of collague, its easy af

[@nicolassabio2470]

Everyome talking about his eyes when Im here magnificed by his wonderful mustache.

[@zami001001]

of all my years working professional programming, I think i've used UML diagrams only a single time. I am delighted to report that UML diagram has never been looked at by another human soul.

[@TwitchingShark]

Prime with his first cyberpunk eye implants.

[@michaelryce1200]

Weird I was taught that stuff in compsci 101 as undergrad. What was that relegated to a master’s course?

[@terraaw7680]

I remember making potential fields for a little ai bot we had to make for Intro to AI. That was fun(it wasn’t)

[@natescode]

My manager LOVES UML. He makes 30 people spend an hour every week learning it.

[@Tmplar]

In my course it’s just a 9 credits exam, how would you make a whole master’s out of that?

[@victotronics]

Boxes and arrows never helped me any but I keep wondering if there is a way to visualize software that does actually help.

[@saca653]

You sure about what the focus is in a master, I am almost finished and saw not one easy doddly thing like UML in my curriculum but maybe germany is different 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@NapoleonThe12th]

In this short we see Sheogorath describe modern software engineering.

[@xyouthe]

i mean it helps to have a layout of the database or service you want to set up

[@GmoneyDaGamer24]

Sounds like data management the way he describes items and their relations to fields

[@thrillhouse4784]

I still get happy when I see diamonds, but I forget what they mean

[@valkhorn]

Sadly it’s true. The degree gets your toe in the door. Maybe. Your projects get your whole leg in the door:

[@Flashcard_Games]

Yep, showing the work you've done is what really matters. The guy in school drawing flowcharts is going to be behind the guy spending time actually making software. We learn software by making software not flowcharts.

[@cloudartisean]

The oooh at the end makes it 😂