Debating Therapy Culture & Gen Z - Abigail Shrier

[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here's the timestamps: 00:00 The Modern Mental Health Crisis 05:21 Are Therapists the Problem? 08:53 Do We Just Need to Connect to Our Feelings More? 14:39 Does Therapy Make Mental Health Worse? 22:17 Gen-Z Are Learning to Be Avoidant 27:31 Finding a Sweet Spot With Therapy 33:27 The Paradox in Depression Treatment 37:47 Therapy Culture Vs Bad Therapy 43:19 Are Smartphones & Climate Change to Blame? 51:23 The Impact of Single-Parent Households 55:04 Schools Making Parents Into Enemies 1:01:28 Overuse of the Word ‘Trauma’ 1:05:57 Is Mindfulness a Better Way? 1:14:34 Kids Are Too Over-Medicated 1:19:31 A Better Way Forward 1:23:35 Where to Find Abigail

[@nevergiveup5939]

Why are we here in this life? Why do we die? What will happen to us after death?

[@elsbells.]

Been waiting for this to drop! Sure it will be good.

[@BerhanuDemeke-ht7ze]

Her central point is valid but she goes overboard. The lack of agency people experience these days is well documented by serious scholars like Charles Taylor, Noam Chomsky, Alasdair McIntyre and the Trump phenomenon itself is justifiably analyzed in terms of the lack of agency. And she couldn't even explain her claim about the 40%.

[@peterbelanger4094]

The kids, the kids, the kids, the kids.. It's always alll about the kids. how about the mental health of older generations? or are we all trying to pretend we have it all together? there a TON of denial in Gen X. maybe if the adults address their problems, things will get better for the kids? maybe people are just diverting from their own problems by putting all the focus on the kids? Who are these kids parents? huh? yeah like they are all ok? gen x .... ok? ... lol. I am one, I know.

[@MC-ze8wj]

YAY THANKS!

[@consciouscrypto3090]

'Stop obsessing about their happiness. Start focusing on their strength.' And there it is.

[@jordybpeterson9046]

It’s basically the same thing that Jordan Peterson talks about.

[@OUpsychChick]

I have been fully immersed in this therapeutic nightmare with my two very hyperactive boys. One boy was kicked out of a preschool, and I was told to get him play therapy. We tried it, and we also tried a few of the therapeutic like parents coaching intensives. Some of these ideas work, some don't, and most make parenting feel exhausting. We stopped all this. Removed every screen in our home that was accessible to them, told them to go outside, setup rules and boundaries we enforce for proper behavior at, for example, the dinner table. Sometimes, they are still energetic and crazy, but our lives are all much less stressful. The meltdowns are now infrequent, they can sit quietly at the dinner table to eat. They play with toys. After reading Abigail's book, I had my older boy (the one who was kicked out of pre-school) order from the meat counter and check out. We are planning to have him get some groceries this summer when we have a planned vacation. Expectations, no screens, and time outdoors playing mostly unsupervised in our yard has been a God send for our sanity.

[@Pozywny]

this is pretty much what therapists recommend you do nowadays btw

[@Barbato13]

Excellent work 🙌🏼 keep it up(:

[@helenbeach5581]

Great to hear from a parent who parents positively, as you just related in your comment. 👍

[@celinenaville]

Bravo! Thank you for using common sense and instinct to save your boys. ❤

[@dxfifa]

Sounds like me me me parenting. Authoritarian dictator parents who care more about the child being easy than being themselves are what created the whole societal mess by screwing up the boomers and gen X, then gen X rejected parenting entirely in favour of the state.

[@aposematicayu]

I believe Abigal is spot on when she says that everything is anxiety now. Younger adults and teens have been so pathologized and sheltered that many cannot deal with the basics of social interaction. Uncomfortable feelings like nervousness, embarrassment, etc. are very important to make you resilient.

[@Moshm4n]

There's a misfaming happening when people go and imply, "Anxiety bad." No particular feeling is good or bad. Different feelings indicate different things and drive behaviors thereafter. They're like indicator lights on a car's dashboard. They're there to provide information that you can take and act on. The problem when people talk about emotions is assigning values to them rather than looking at them as data points. It's that attitude that springs forth the types of attitudes that tell men to be unfeeling robots, or cry and soy-out over every inconvenience. It's stupid to ignore a lit check engine light. It's also stupid to sit there and stare at a check engine light frantically. No, you get up and fix the problem. The same is true for "positive" emotions. They're telling you that something is going right and to keep plugging away. That's also important information.

[@mrroboto18]

I had a first meeting with a therapist who asked how I was feeling at the beginning and I mentioned I had some anxiety. Later in his notes I saw he wrote that I had an undiagnosed anxiety disorder. I don't, I was anxious about having to discuss the worst aspects of my life with a stranger. Anxiety is a normal response to that situation, it seems far weirder to not be a little anxious in that moment.

[@BWater-yq3jx]

Yes, all emotions serve a purpose, including the ones perceived as negative; whether it's to alert you to something that needs attention - maybe you're embarrassed or ashamed because your behaviour is socially unacceptable. Or for example - to overcome fear and spur you to action... such as with anger.

[@Defactodissident]

Because younger people tend to label an ounce of inconvenience as a trauma, and this is coming from a gen z who has been violated s3xually by a family member. He took advantage that I couldn't grasp the concept at the time but I was fully conscious, still I wouldn't gaslight myself to call it a traumatic experience for a simple fact that I didn't feel negative experience nor was I physically resisting. The man is now serving sentences for being a possible danger to other children, not once did I mention "he inflicted trauma" in my testimony during the trial and I believe that's just being well served. It's more empowering that way, than to identify with the pain itself. if I was in America where victimhood is not only encouraged but as well enduring pain seen as strictly toxic I wouldn't be half as the (mentally) strong man that I am now. Shame culture has its downsides of course, but it's blown out of proportion by the left trying to guilt trip everyone that they're a victim or something.

[@joo2596]

​@@mrroboto18 I agree. I've been asked a few times if I've taken any medication yet when I've been feeling anxious/upset, during times when it was normal to feel these things (like going through grief or putting myself in a new situation.) It might help others, but it feels a bit disheartening to me when I'm really looking for a bit of reassurance or someone to relate to.

[@michellebaeza4618]

I saw a psychologist for 2 years and she kept me a victim. I left her a found a new family counselor and was able to work through my trauma and issues within 6 months. She gave me tools to not dwell on my trauma. I am so thankful.

[@behindthacrookedcross]

Everyone's journey is different.

[@paulstefanski2991]

Finally, a podcast that wasn't brought to me by Betterhelp

[@codygrizenko3687]

I still got the ads lol

[@XanderShiller]

It's a data harvesting scam. They sell psych info to advertisers.

[@wumbomaster1395]

I’m a social worker who works with children and adolescents and the most common thing that I see that is causing issues is fatherlessness. 90%+ of the kids that I see (if I were to guess) don’t have a father, or their father is abusive. They are labeled with oppositional defiant disorder and/or ADHD when in reality, they are not given the care, patience, attention, etc. that they need from a father. ODD is a dumb diagnosis, in my opinion, because it labels the kid as ‘bad kid’ when the truth is that they are a stressed/scared/attention-starved kid. I’ve never met a kid labeled with ODD that had a solid parental foundation.

[@1CuriousMuse]

I suspect oppositional defiant disorder is the childhood/adolescent presentation of obsessive compulsive personality disorder in a cohort of kids with an ODD diagnosis. OCPD is supposedly the most common personality disorder, but generally affected people don't seek treatment/therapy unless they develop anxiety or depression. We know two young men from intact families with attentive fathers who had behavior problems consistent with ODD, and one was given an ODD diagnosis while the other was given a less stigmatizing Aspergers diagnosis when they were kids. Guess what they had in common: their mothers were physicians which is a profession people with OCPD are over represented in. Both young men are bright and have done well in school. The less sheltered of the two is now an engineer and has done fine socially too. The more sheltered one is presently getting his engineering degree but is struggling socially.

[@ms-jl6dl]

I'm not sure that their mothers are that perfect as you imply. They have A LOT to do both with the divorces and with the children's poor development. Absence of fathers can also be just a symptom of narcissistic,borderline mothers who destroy everything around them but get favourable treatment from the family courts to the detriment of children. It has been established that children raised by single fathers have none of those problems and are doing much better through life.

[@crazyman2188]

Most of the time I have seen is the lack of a father or even the lack of a safe father have lead to ADHD due to a constant stress of looking for safety in a place that isn't. Me and my closest friends have the diagnosis and there is no question based on how we struggle but I think what people aren't thinking about is a disorder is something you live with it isn't who you are or something to use as validation. I find my ADHD as a challenge to overcome and to learn as much about my upbringing and how that has affected me to find out how I should treat my kids one day to make sure they don't have to go through the same pain. Plus it gives me the ability to talk to people similar to me to where whatever I find that helps me can possibly help them. It's all in the mindset and the environment you are in. If there is one thing i can recommend to people more than anything is find someone you can trust and humble yourself to ask them to help you in keeping yourself on track. For example I know I am very distracted when it comes to my morning routine and so I have a friend that keeps me on a specific schedule that I have laid out when I am thinking productively and it's basic stuff like getting up at a specific time each day even on your off days and getting some exercise in each morning and stuff like that. You have to know where your weak points are before you can work on them. I'm sure there are flaws to my thinking that I will come to find down the line but it's better than the alternative of suffering pointlessly. Back to original point Saying all of that, a mother that isn't safe either will make it even worse. Every one if my friends who has it has mothers that are distant and cold. They act like they are warm and loving but the connection is never there and it leaves kids wondering if connection even exists. I think I was lucky sense my first relationship I had even though it failed gave me that look into what a possible connection can look like. I think everything has allowed me to look at people for who they are instead of what they are showing me or anyone else.

[@BlakeElliott35]

And… You’re just allowing these kids to be falsely labeled and drugged? If our social workers are identifying root causes of problems, but doing nothing positive or constructive after identifying the problem, then… All we’re doing is making big pharma more money by branding (thus, dooming) our most vulnerable to a label and societal stigma they’ll never recover from… They’ll be so brainwashed and drug-dependent… Like slaves… and, then we truly are doomed. 😢

[@wumbomaster1395]

@@ms-jl6dl I’m not implying that. I have a few problematic mothers on my caseload, for sure.

[@alisonguyton7950]

My dad died 2 weeks before my 17th birthday having been ill with lung and then brain cancer for 3 years. I was obviously sad about his death, but my grieving process started when I was told his brain tumour was inoperable, when I watched him loose his faculties and become something other than my dad in a hospital bed. On the day he died and in the weeks after I felt relief, relief for him, for my mum, for myself because the dying was so much harder to deal with than the death. I was sent to mandatory NHS grief counselling. The therapist told me I was struggling to come to terms with my dad’s death. Asked me to describe the hardest parts of my dad’s illness which I felt no benefit in talking about. I was in the middle of A levels, had a boyfriend who wasn’t very nice to me and was in the throws of teenage hormones, if anything my dads death was the thing I most clearly understood at that time. At no point then or in the 26 years since have a felt that I struggled to accept my dad’s death. But as a 16/17 year old I had a professional adult TELLING me that I had a problem and I wasn’t accepting it. I was strong minded enough to write it off as bad therapy. But I can 100% see how to a different child this kind of approach could have led to years of issues because our minds are so malleable as children and teenagers. So not all therapy is good, and too much intervention with the wrong motivation is definitely not good. Being a child is all about learning what you can withstand to make you a strong adult. I am a stronger adult because of the grief I suffered, but the grief counselling would have had me believe otherwise.

[@lisav6583]

I have been a teacher for 17 years. The coddling and validating of emotional Dysregulation is wild. I have watched kids cry because of the high expectations (going to all their classes). It’s a sad waste of potential.

[@Being_Bohemian]

Am in my late 40s and, like many, I studied hard all my way through schooling and university until age 22, when I graduated. I'd cry if I had to return to school; I'd cry if I was once again forced - by law - to 'learn' boxed-up subjects I had no interest in, in a stifling environment, all to an arbitrary and ridiculously intense schedule that I had absolutely no say in. John Taylor Gatto and Dr Peter Gray (at Freedom to Learn, Psychology Today), amongst hundreds of other researchers and writers, offer powerful, valid and alternative reasons for why children and teens are dangerously stressed-out with school, and why the suicide rate in teens is through the roof (see Peter Gray's relatively recent posts). Adults forget what it was like - even before curricula became absurdly jam-packed and dry (certainly here in the UK) - and everyone has been brainwashed into believing there is no better way: there is.

[@dani7190]

@lisav6583 Do your students respect you more or less based on your approach of not validating emotional dysregulation? Also, God bless you for holding kids accountable to their responsibility to learn.

[@ebert8756]

​I too have been thinking about the role of curriculum changes in our students behavior issues 🤔. (California teacher) And I also agree with almost everything shrier says in this interview. I think she's very clear and on point .

[@skylinefever]

@@Being_Bohemian I often argue cram school is why so many kids in Japan, South Korea, and SIngapore self destruct.

[@boopins7909]

I was cornered at a pediatrician office because I had post partum depression and when I declined counseling they automatically assumed my partner told me to say no and asked if I’m being abused at home. I said no because I knew it was hormones and I moved through it fine. Now, they want my son in physical therapy because he’s not walking at 12 months (totally normal!!). I said no that’s not necessary and had to say no on three separate calls. When I call this same office about my son’s extreme constipation they offer no help and just asked if he’s in PT yet. The healthcare system and mental health system can’t survive if we’re all happy and healthy so they fish for issues it’s ridiculous.

[@mgkurzweil]

Omg this is crazy! Thank God you are following your instincts and taking care of your baby! Shame on them! You're a great mom.

[@skylinefever]

The system wants to take the rare sickness and make it common.

[@JinglesPfeff]

I've started pushing back on students when they tell me they "have" anxiety, as though an emotion is something you have or don't have, rather than merely experience. I don't have happiness, I experience it. I don't have depression, I experience it. When we say we "have" something, we take it on and make it a core of our identity. To say "I experience X" is to say, "I am human and experience feelings, but all feelings are fleeting. They aren't the sum total of who I am. They areny my personality"

[@ashdapr1]

I work at a high school and I agree 1000% with Abigail. Kids these days can’t deal with normal life and normal developmental challenges.

[@LongerThanAverageUsername]

Because adults these days suck at being parents and teachers. Kids don’t just pull those abilities out of thin air.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

I don't know if you can lay that at the feet of therapists, though. You have to lay a lot of the blame on that for the internet and social media replacing real life interactions/experiences.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

​@@LongerThanAverageUsernameTrue! Though adults have always kinda sucked at being parents. That isn't a new problem. In the past you just drowned problems out with alcohol, though

[@dani7190]

​@@Bertinator-nm9ld Kids get put on psychiatric drugs most often by the pediatrician or through a direct referral from the PCP to a psychiatrist. Classroom teachers are teaching about gender and "feelings" instead of teaching academic material. Universal school choice would solve 50% of this problem in my opinion.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

@@dani7190 Over prescription of drugs is a very real issue. It's an issue with regular drugs, too. But that's kinda tangential, and I fail to see how that would be fixed by universal school choice. Pediatricians are usually external to schools, right?

[@bradrtorgersen_videos]

Abigail Shrier is a lioness. One of the few (seemingly) American public intellectuals willing to research, and tell the truth about, not only trans mania, but the "therapeutic industrial complex" that's been a nightmare for Gen X, Millennials, and now, Gen Z.

[@manro8]

Abigail and you clearly have no understanding of what therapist’s actually do

[@gaialily7072]

I've been saying this for 25 years! When I was a teenager they started advertising medications on tv, then all of a sudden all my friends and schoolmates were being diagnosed left and right with anxiety, depression, ADHD, you name it. I knew it wasn't them though, it was the doctors and medical establishment convincing people they were ill when they actually weren't. I'm glad this conversation is happening now. It sickens me to see the overmedicated population we've become

[@SarahPerine]

I totally agree and that’s been my experience but I don’t agree with what she says about talk therapy. Two completely different things. Letting people talk and learn it’s okay to talk about feelings is healthy. Too many pharmaceuticals are not!!

[@savannalilly6547]

My 9 year old son has very significant ADHD. He doesn't really have "behavior problems" but his executive functioning is very impacted. He can not stay still at all. It's like he's crawling out of his skin all the time. He can't focus on one thing for more than a minute or two. He has a lot of difficulty keeping himself and his thoughts organized, etc. Regular therapy doesn't work for him at all. He has to sit still, focus on the therapist and talk to her. He just doesn't have the ability to stay focused long enough for it to be productive. We are lucky to have access to adventure therapy in our area. They do all kinds of adventure activities out in the middle of a forested area. They have ziplining, rock climbing, high ropes courses, fishing, kayaking, fort building. The focus isn't on feelings, but being outside in the fresh air with other kids completing psychically and mentally challenging tasks, and learning to deal with what comes along with those challenges. It's been great at building social skills, confidence, self-esteem, agency, making friends, working in teams, etc. When she mentioned how kids should be outside, running around and socializing with other kids, it just brought to mind how great this switch away from talk therapy has been for him.

[@tiroles]

THIS. I would just not call it therapy. Just Adventure.

[@consciouscrypto3090]

So basically he's poorly adapted for working in a cubicle someday, but highly adapted for building an edifice, winning a war, or rescuing someone in danger. You've wound up with a boy who will one day be a man. Congratulations.

[@blackmateo9583]

@@consciouscrypto3090 I agree. Some kids are born natural explorers. They are more active, more curious, and often their attention is drawn to new things. Kids like that once grew up to pave the way forward for the world, exploring unexplored lands, building unique things, leading and organizing where others do not have that innate ability to jump from one thing to the next and learn outside of their comfort zone. If I were to wager, if OP continues down this path and doesnt let him fall into the public school pathology and cubicle structured mentality, he will grow to do exceptional things regardless of what people surrounding him say, so long as his innate “explorer” mentality is supported.

[@grannyannie2948]

One of my gkids was 9 his young teacher started throwing ADHD around about him. The headmaster thought about it and arranged for him to do some woodwork classes in the highschool. Using tools, taking pride in making beautiful things, and having a male teacher, turned out to be all he needed. This year his teacher is in her fifties and he's doing fine. I wonder how much of ADHD is just normal behaviour for boys. When you read literature of boys over the last couple of centuries, they are not sitting around paying attention, they are involved in adventure, they are busy and active.

[@carsandsports123]

The fact we have people in the comments mention play therapy, diet therapy and now adventure therapy really proves her point. All those things are living healthy life styles and are not therapy and we are inserting therapy into too wide a spectrum

[@AronHsiao]

@ChrisWillX I love your pod, but today's episode illustrates pretty clearly you don't have a kid in the public school system. Imagine this: - You have a high school kid whose parents were divorced a decade ago when he was tiny - He's fine, the parents get along, custody is all worked out, and life is pretty normal - But at the start of every school year, a school therapist passes around a mandatory questionnaire - On it, kids are asked if they have divorce in their life, if a family member or pet has ever died, and so on - If the kid answers truthfully (yup, parents are divorced), he is placed in "trauma group" - "Trauma group" meets once a week on a mandatory basis to help kids to "integrate their feelings" - They are pulled out of the activities/classes the other kids get to do so that they can attend "trauma group" - Everyone else knows they are in "trauma group" - In weekly "trauma group," they are asked to reveal their feelings about their trauma (i.e. the divorce a decade ago) - Every week, they must emote about it - When our kid emotes, he leaves feeling worse, and it's really the only time he thinks about the divorce any longer, he'd just as soon move on - If our kid fails to emote in "trauma group," it's taken as repression / failure to integrate, and he's referred to individual therapy - If he finally says he's had it up to here and refuses to talk about the divorce week after week for a decade, he's referred to individual therapy for anger management - If at the start he lies on the questionnaire and says nope, no divorce, but staff know, it's seen as a reason to be referred for therapy (avoidance! denial!) The rest of the time the kid is fine. But "trauma group" forces him to re-live his parents divorce weekly, years after it happened, and to emote, even when it's fake and he doesn't feel like it, and marks him as a "trauma survivor," both to himself and to his peers, and at the same time *separates him* from his peers regularly to do this "trauma stuff." And all the kid wants is to move on. But as the school therapist has told his parents, it's important that he learn to "express and integrate his emotions" and "not repress things" and so on. Do you see the problem now? He didn't really mind when the kindergarten counselor talked to him when his parents got divorced all those years ago. But after 10 years of having to cry about it weekly and being labeled a "trauma survivor" in public over and over again about something he now feels is totally normal, he is frustrated beyond belief. This is child abuse, carried out by the same people, of the same mindset, who are driving a whole bunch of activism on a whole bunch of issues. It's a kind of middle-class, largely white, largely female "saviorism" that comes originally from a kind of nurturing instinct but long ago turned into devouring people whole as it's form of nurturing.

[@Ochtone]

This is a good comment. Tl:dr kids are being forced to repeatedly relive issues they’ve already dealt with and it unsurprisingly damages them. If they are wise and try to get out of it, they are referred to anger management or therapy for lying / denial.

[@LordHerek]

it this actually something that's common in schools in USA?

[@AronHsiao]

@@LordHerek In my experience, yes, and not just schools. You see, there are two deep-seated fears in the culture: school shooters and teen suicide, and the presumption is that both can be prevented by enough therapy applied in the right places-because these kids "so badly need our empathy and caring and help, etc." and "have been failed over and over again by everyone" and so on. Note some of the other comments on this video using the common language that we as a society are in the midst of a "mental health crisis" among young people, etc. So every time another incident happens, one of the threads of discourse is "damn, still not getting them enough therapy... when will we learn that they need more therapy?" And there is a general part of the zeitgeist that insists that we "therapize" the kids early and often to "prevent tragedy." Physicians will blithely mention to "possibly consider therapy" after a broken ankle, coaches will mention in passing that "maybe even some therapy I don't know" is needed after a few hard losses, parents will ask other parents in stern tones about whether a child is in therapy if there is a disagreement or incident at school, etc. Lots of developmental stuff that used to be normal is now culturally marked "eliminate if possible with therapy." Doesn't seem to be working, but as a society, we don't seem to learn very quickly any longer. I actually suspect that one of the things causing the crisis is too much "therapy" style interaction and not enough suggestion that dealing with the bad is just a part of life. The other thing causing the crisis (and probably the bigger part) is the disappearance of real human relationships from kids lives (often to be replaced by therapy...) Two parents has given way to one parent, older mentors in the community have been eliminated as "creepy," and time that was once spent roaming the neighborhood independently with friends is now spent at home in solitude using technology, because the old model was "unsafe." For some kids, it seems that their school counselor, therapist, etc. is their primary relationship in life.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

​​@@LordHerekI don't think so.... Certainly there are some weird schools out there some weird things, but I would be very surprised if it were the norm. A lot of schools barely have the resources to adequately do their two primary jobs of teaching the students and babysitting. I think another large factor at play is that this has become a battleground in the culture wars. A lot of people exaggerate how common the extreme examples of bad schooling are, in their war to defeat the Left, in this case. The Left does the same exaggeration of issues back to the right, but on other issues. So keep in mind that politics distorts reality on a lot of these issues!

[@JSiracusan]

I think Chris was just pointing to the millennial symptoms, as she accurately pointed out. The millennials or earlier tended to repress. I know I did and then it all came out when my own marriage was falling apart, just as my parents' did. So there is a lot at play here. that same kid in high school, doesn't want to hear it developmentally now may re-create the same situation in his own marriage down the line because of the unconscious patterns he unknowingly has... however, getting him to emote more and more, may not help either. emoting only helps in combination with taking accountability and responsibility... and therapy doesn't encourage that necessarily. I had to go to coaching for that. So idk, this is all of the above. Trauma is a bad label because all those are potential character builders... honestly. We've over-rotated. I think this was a good episode today honestly...

[@etlillebarn4711]

Teaching people they are sick, unwell, not enough, whatever is gaslighting. Teaching someone that he is less than he is or could be is wrong. We can`t even comprehend how much damage it causes to soul and consequently to body itself.

[@SubBassX]

Sure, but also telling someone who has a real issue that they are completely typical is also gaslighting. Knowing what your issue is can help you seek treatment and get past whatever that is.

[@zebedeesummers4413]

@@SubBassX why tell them what experience they are having at all? I would think it is best to make sure they know they can tell you. I can tell you that anytime I've had someone in my life asking how I'm doing very often it makes me life worse. If I was doing well I'm taken out of it, if I'm having a bad time I'm forced to focus on it and either bring another person down or hide it. If a kid falls and their parent gasps and asks if they are okay, the kid the very likely to cry even if they are fine. If a kid got hurt and tell them they are fine we are making it worse, so we might as well just not intervene until the kid is clearly in serious danger or ASKS for help. From where I am at you are both at fairly extreme ends of the spectrum when in most normal scenarios saying nothing to the child about feeling is best. Why do we need to put our expectations on them when we can just wait and see how they are doing?

[@SubBassX]

@@zebedeesummers4413 The problem that you are going to run into is that kids don't always have words to explain how they are feeling, and they don't always expect that things they are feeling are "normal." I think a healthy medium is definitely necessary, but for example, there are studies which show that kids who are educated about sexuality at a young age are less likely to be sexually assaulted, because they know how to communicate these terms to adults and get help. This same logic applies to many other pathologies, it's hard to get help when no one around you is even acting like you might have a problem.

[@jays7318]

Thank you for bringing clarity to this. Social contagion and suggestive counselling is destroying many children today. They are making decisions that they shouldnt be at their age (like transitioning) and will regret destroying their future lives

[@tomdivittis2688]

It’s refreshing to hear someone say that lying is not nuance, without skipping a beat, or apologizing for it.

[@gt6808]

But she’s suggesting downplaying the realities of how catastrophic climate change will be. Honesty isn’t highlighting one study which is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It seems that for her, lying is focusing on anything she doesn’t like.

[@tomdivittis2688]

@@gt6808 the sky isn’t falling.

[@gt6808]

@@tomdivittis2688 the evidence is fairly overwhelming. Wishful thinking isn’t going to cause any miracle

[@tomdivittis2688]

@@gt6808 What do you do, specifically, to avoid adding to this catastrophe? This is a sincere question.

[@gt6808]

@@tomdivittis2688 Place pressure on government to reduce emissions, spending more on transitioning to alternative fuel sources etc. It needs to be a lot of pressure as it is against the short term interests. Young people are aware of this and seem far more willing to make this a core issue compared to older demographics, which is why I think the so-called “alarmism” is necessary- and honest.

[@brianhopson2072]

I love Abigail's point about how bad therapy is basically creating a psychosomatic form of mental illnesses and disorders after being gaslit by the mental health system Chris, I've watched a few of your podcasts, but I was very impressed with the way that you addressed the theraspeak issue within our social lexicon. I definitely agree with your viewpoints in changing the language and possibly people can relax a little bit on overpathologizing normal things. I was diagnosed over a decade ago and I tortured myself with all these psychological terms that was more detrimental to me than anything. So I went ahead after being so sick and tired of being so jittery about it that I divorced all the Freudian terminology from my daily vernacular and it has been a game-changer as far as not only Outlook but way less negative stirrings internally. It gives you room to actually enjoy life a lot more and ReDiscover who you truly are outside of the impressed upon identity of contemporary psychological terminology. I recommend Dr Szasz as far as reading further on the institutional implications on this direction. He warned of all this decades ago.

[@dani7190]

I appreciate the distinction between recognizing an emotion and assessing appropriateness of the emotion for the situation. The phrase "all emotions are valid" is particularly problematic for this reason.

[@thepiccards2105]

Same here… I cannot agree more

[@colinb8332]

All emotions are valid. Not all of them are useful.

[@monda111111]

Emotions are valid in that there are specific and logical reasons for why we have them and why they arise. It is also the case that they are maladaptive in some contexts which is why we can benefit from controlling/managing them

[@dani7190]

@@monda111111 what about social contagion of emotions? Are they truly authentic or valid if a teenager experiences anger because he sees his favorite tik tok'er angry about a topic the teenager knows nothing about? Interesting to consider what a "valid emotion" is in the context of social media

[@colinb8332]

Feeling anger is absolutely a valid emotion. You cannot control the emotions that arise. Trying to only leads to more issues. It’s acting immediately on emotions that are fogging reality that is bad. It’s okay to feel emotion. They are valid and real . They are telling you to pay attention to something. It’s responding to the emotion in a healthy way that is important.

[@Viking-tc8on]

HECK YESSSSSS Abigail!!!!! Chris, thank you for having her on!! I could speak so deeply to everything Abigail speaks about as a parent raising a strong son and a strong daughter in this world today!! My kids know they are here to CONTRIBUTE to society for the greater good!! Our family is vibrant, healthy, strong and our kids are thriving elite level athletes with incredible careers and our youngest is working hard on her athletic scholarship. My kids have the discernment & good sense to see through the lies society is trying to disempower our youth with today! And I agree with Abigail- this responsibility falls on ME, 💯 as their parent!!! To raise them properly!! Thank you for this podcast!! I shared it with friends & family!!!🔥🙌🏽❤️🏆

[@sethedward]

Lean into the problem, face it head-on. Take responsibility, avoid assigning blame. It’s not your situation giving you issues, it’s how you’re choosing to perceive it. Maybe it’s unfair, maybe it’s cruel, maybe it’s out of your control. None of that matters, because dwelling on all the factors that make you a victim will not help you one bit. Accept your plight, and focus only on ways(big or small)that you can learn to become a fully capable wall of resilience. Nobody can do this for you, only you. Never stop searching for answers, tools, motivations ECT. The more you grow, the more the problems shrink. Before you know it, you may find you’ve forgotten about them to a degree, and power they had over greatly diminished. I did it, you can too. I believe in you.

[@v9b23j]

I once worked as a manager on a team with a person in her late 20s who reported directly to me. I told my subordinate face-to-face that I was going on a business trip to Paris alone, since we didn't need both of us there, and I left her to handle the day-to-day operations and tasks in the office (this was more than a decade before Covid). She told me that she didn't know how to process her feelings of disappointment as I could see she was expecting to go on the business trip. The next day, while I was in the middle of a meeting with a business partner, my boss, the CEO in his early 30s, storms in and interrupts us saying, "Your staff came into my office crying," looking irritated. I thought, "Am I dealing with two supposedly professional adults with the emotional maturity of a 4-year-old?"

[@LordHerek]

you didn't finish the story

[@v9b23j]

@@LordHerek She ended up retaliating against me covertly in all kinds of ways, playing the victim, influencing people in higher ranks, colluding with HR, etc. I surmise she unconsciously projected her feelings and unmet expectations for her parent onto me (transference).

[@josephvlogsdon]

I think one of the main problem is that therapy often doesn’t give people a lot of practical solutions, at least the kind that I’ve encountered. It’s all about coping mechanisms. Venting can be great at first, but if no solution is offered, it’s pointless. There is also a tendency to blame the individual instead of society. Many people who are diagnosed with depression may not have clinical depression; they may just have terrible lives. If a man is lonely, dissatisfied with his job, and trapped, then of course he’s going to feel depressed. People who have every reason to be content with life but still feel like jumping off a bridge may have clinical depression. That’s not most people, however.

[@BWater-yq3jx]

The art is in determining where your emotional response sits on the continuum, and then dealing with that appropriately. Sometimes a situation needs to be rectified, sometimes you just need to chill out.

[@Being_Bohemian]

You've hit the nail on the head here. 💯 agree.

[@Being_Bohemian]

​@@BWater-yq3jxAbsolutely. And sometimes a bit of both is required!

[@Being_Bohemian]

​@annoyingcommentator1582 Do we know the OP is from America? The CBT-type psychological 'engineering' approach certainly likely fits with the German mentality and psyche. But it's not the only way, and it's not the only form of psychotherapy out there. I'm in the UK, and the therapy picture over here is probably different again; it can't be one-size-fits-all.

[@HopelessAutistic]

@@brianmeen2158 support, support, and consistent support, understand there's a "dual diagnosis" because you neglect to state the face he also has a *developmental* disorder and the therapy against people with ASD for many years is they are the problem, they chose to be autistic, their autism ruins everything - and they forget there's a human being right in front of them. It's almost as bad that they therapist aren't looking _them_ in the eyes.

[@xAmerlioration]

Dialectical behavior therapy does well with exploring if the emotions are appropriate. It has part of if it fits the facts or not. When it does not, it will not be useful. Sad that Abigail said she has not received much from people about this until Chris brought it up. I am a therapist. I try to use modalities like CBT, DBT, REBT, schema therapy, ART, etc. I confront clients a lot on distortions in thinking. And a lot of cognitive reframing. And teaching them to understand and work with their emotions. Teaching them to disrupt rumination cycles and shift into reflection. Disrupting worry cycles and shifting more into concern. I know some colleagues who do. I know many who do not. I have clients who tell me they have had therapists that were good listeners but they did not get much else. Sad state of the field.

[@manro8]

This statement is very generalized. Training in CBT is exactly what you say you do. You follow a protocol to disrupt beliefs assumptions and rules for living. Are there some bad therapist… probably. Is therapy bad because of them absolutely not the majority of research supports this, and not what Abigail is conflating here. She has some valid points but seems to link them to why therapy as a whole is bad. It’s simply not true and there is little evidence to support this assumption she has.

[@kimberlysharon7786]

@@manro8Abigail makes sweeping generalizations based on a confirmation bias with her evidence based on personal anecdotal experiences. Therapy is helpful for many in different stages of maturation but nothing in this life is perfect.

[@durandus676]

therapy ruined my parents marriage. my mom believed my dad not engaging with it was him not caring and she just got vent validation but at least she didnt like that and stopped going but her belief in therapy made her believe my dad didnt care. when she was the one who went crazy over covid 33:30 how to win friends and influence people may not tell you anything about emotional regulation but it tells you what works with people and it condemns emotional outburst like crazy. 1:16:55 my pediatrician recommended I get reassessed and remove the diagnosis because I am better off without the meds I got side effects like crazy.

[@Andrea-zm1nl]

Please learn to structure a sentence properly. Your lack of proper punctuation and lack of capital letters where they are needed makes it very hard to read and understand your points. There are sentence fragments in your comment and I lost the thread of what you were trying to say when you stuck the first time stamp in.

[@Andrea-zm1nl]

@@Paintit33 you are allowed your opinion... And still I had no friggin idea what said young and obviously under educated person was trying to convey..

[@HopelessAutistic]

​@@Andrea-zm1nl you lost me at "young and obviously under educated person " - this is part of why our society is so divided there's snobs who think it's OK to look down at people who aren't like them.

[@Andrea-zm1nl]

@@HopelessAutistic shows how much you know. My objective was to help a person communicate more clearly in the future. I'm pretty sure that this person meant for their post to be understood. As for your opinion of me, I literally couldn't care less

[@llundber]

Thank you both. Perfectly timed. You’ve verbalized what most everyone I know, including myself, are in some way going through.

[@oddstuff6137]

Social emotional learning in schools actually teaches and encourages emotional disregulation and ruminating thought patterns which creates mental illness

[@AronHsiao]

100% agree, as a parent I am not a fan.

[@aaan5545]

​@@AronHsiao As a teacher who has been forced to teach this (with no training or background), I am not a fan!

[@kaylajarzab]

Thank you for asking tough questions, as a listener it’s easy to take guests for their word because they’re an “expert” on such and such topic; as 28 y.o. female in therapy this conversation made me question Abigail’s points at times that you did too. However, given her ability to clarify it made her message even clearer to understand! So thank you!

[@adrianapumphrey2650]

Incredible podcast, thanks for being a voice for us normal regular parents. I agree with Dr. Abigail 150%, I have raised my two kids in the way I was raised in Colombia, and also I made sure they learn to dance and express their feelings, now I have two healthy young men, that lead their friends to better choices.

[@helenengstad6348]

A changelling conversation but so strengthening ❤ Thank you!

[@3ddrew691]

She is spot on. My parents split at 3. My dad remarried at 6. My brother decided to go live with my mom when I was in grade 6. In grade 9 the school counselor came to me to ask me how I felt about it all. By that time, I was way over it and didn't actually care, I moved on and yet she wanted me to talk about my feelings and how I should be affected. I told her it didn't bother me and I didn't need therapy I worked through it myself with some family. She was shocked and didn't know what to say, I told her I didn't need to talk to her again. I talk with my son and when he has emotions that don't match the situation I explain why he doesn't need to feel that way because it isn't the emotion that matches the situation. He understands and has for years. He is 9 now and is an amazing kid.

[@skylinefever]

I make no apologies for not having the negative emotion I am supposed to emote. When at funerals, I do not feel bad, because I feel it's better than rotting in a hospital bed.

[@Hans-qi3wq]

One of the best, most informative and most needed conversations. It's so good to see, and listen to, two synchronised minds pouring out insight and wisdom. Excellent work 👍👍👍

[@LiamBeanComedy]

Having your feelings validated all the time , it’s just short term gratification. It’s another dopamine hit, which we have far to many of.

[@mosthatedminnesotan]

Exceptional takes! Definitely need more people to speak out about these issues! Children are very susceptible; they need to be nurtured and guided in the right directions, but they need not direct intervention to solve the problems for them.

[@clarewithrow]

Top top notch and brilliant. My mind has totally shifted for the better. Thank you

[@samtahmassebi163]

Chris, you did a fantastic job in this interview: you pushed back much more than normal (welcomed and to good effect) and it became apparent that you were actively listening and understanding on the fly, rather than rebutting or letting her give a TedTalk. I agree that revisiting and ruminating on the past events isn't helpful, the old-school way of just going to work can in some instances be the best method for your mental health. Lots more could be said on the subject, but if people listen openly and reflect on what she's saying and their own experiences they will find that there's a tremendous amount of truth in what you're both saying. The problem seems to lie with the culture (school/ society) around young people (the future).

[@bridgetmolteni657]

Excellent podcast, my son is 18 and has severe social anxiety, he struggled with going to college etc and went on medication about 5 months ago, its got worse and worse and now even struggles to leave the house, hes coming off it now as it has made everything worse including his sexual function which just adds to his mental health problems.. The withdrawal effects of coming off the medication are terrible

[@JustinTrudeau1971]

I don’t want to sound glib but be grateful he was only on it for five months. I’ve been on mine for decades and the withdrawal has shut down my life.

[@LGIOdating]

Very solid interview from you Chris. You navigated the conversation well ✌🏽 Nice job

[@angelagross5616]

Abigail, I absolutely love you. I have been saying this for years. Kids are SO over treated with labels. My son was diagnosed (by a teacher mind you) with ADHD and requested I put him on ritalin. I suggested her doing her job and keeping him interested. I feel like she just didn't want to deal with his desire to learn..... Love this topic.❤

[@paulinotou]

Great guest, this needs to be heard. We are over diagnosing as well as using these diagnosis as crutches or excuses. Its ironic how this is the most study we have done for mental health, yet we struggle to understand why mental health is at an all time low for many age groups.

[@nna3487]

I enjoyed this conversation immensely! So many insights! Brilliant!

[@peakprimalhealth5762]

I remember coming to the states in 2012 for the first time to work as a camp counselor. I’m from the uk. Up until that point I had never in my life heard anyone say “I have anxiety”. I remember hearing it dozens of times in the first week. From young adults themselves and in reference to the kids we were going to be looking after. Many of the kids were medicated also. I remember the mind blowing realization that American culture is deeply sick on a mental health level compared to Europe. Sadly, EU is catching up and this seems to be the direction of things. We don’t need to throw all the baby out with the bath water. Some therapy can be good, certainly awareness of one’s emotions and regulation tools are needed, so as to not be ruled by unconscious drives, but the constant pathologizing is a slippery slope creating millions of victims with little to no agency.

[@kittik3416]

Thank you, Chris, for bring on such incredible people and for asking the hard questions.

[@Wim497]

@Chris I think you did well to help the conversation differentiate between “therapy culture” and psychological intervention which is acutely oriented towards supporting agency and deconstructing unhelpful personal and cultural narratives - including the victim story. Almost every psychotherapy modality is about supporting autonomy and responsibility.

[@joo2596]

I can relate a bit from my own experiences. My school put me on the special needs list with no explanation. Some of my teachers treated me like I was delicate and they also ran this self esteem course. I was shy, but many people don't come out of their shell until after school. I got into self help books from a young age and continue to see myself as someone with low self esteem. I've wondered if school influenced the way that I feel about myself. Overcoming challenges and working with others would have naturally built up my confidence without encouraging me to over focus on it. On the other hand I've still learnt some useful things. I wouldn't use the word boundary directly with someone while resolving a disagreement, but I've been in some controlling relationships where having this understanding has helped.

[@JustinTrudeau1971]

I got hammered at nineteen with so much Prozac I could barely function and was never told it could make my anxiety worse, just that I had a condition that needed medication for the rest of my life. No one asked me about my unstable home, being bullied or being beaten up so badly I needed facial surgery, It took twenty years for a new doctor to apologize for what happened to me and now I have to get off four more drugs I was put on to get off the Prozac. I wish every day I could relive that moment and not started down this path.

[@solo1014]

In 5 years people will start saying that therapy gave them trauma.

[@samiphilosophy3949]

They are already saying that

[@brianhopson2072]

That's Abigail’s whole point.

[@AP-my7sc]

haha so true!!!!

[@skylinefever]

And many would probably be right. I call it the professional gaslight business.

[@stooch66]

My sister-in-law, a school social worker, has “diagnosed” her three daughters with multiple disorders, anxiety, depression, etc….and she talks about them openly, which means these kids have been marked by their “disorders.” I see a lot of parents who talk like this. We are creating kids with built-in excuses and causing mental disorders in the process.

[@Will-ChongQing]

Realllly reaaaaly love the topic and are fully on board with the idea that bad therapies are doing the opposite of healing people

[@dmcentYT]

Great to hear a voice of reason out there. GenZ is full of “victims” of everything and encouraged to be such.

[@dmcentYT]

@@Saavys I put in about 200 miles a month hiking how about you? Did I hurt your feelings? I’ll send tissues 😭

[@lawsonmcneely]

U seem like a narcissist tbh

[@davidcardinal3654]

@@lawsonmcneelyanother Gen Z thing to say. Anytime someone challenges or criticizes them they break down and call everyone narcissistic gaslighters 😂😂

[@sassycaterpillar6631]

​@@davidcardinal3654maybe it's because many people are selfcentered liars. We don't have to use "psch" terms to agree to that, do we? Unless you like to think the majority of people are honest, selfless people?

[@sassycaterpillar6631]

​@@davidcardinal3654maybe people are just self centered and dishonest? No need to use psych terms to agree to that

[@tedtalksrock]

I love this woman!!! So refreshing.

[@andremodesto]

The statistic she cited and could not provide the source on top of her mind 04:55 was from the following: National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), in 2019, they reported that in a study of 1,583 children aged 2-8 years, 40.3% were diagnosed with a mental health disorder, most commonly Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and anxiety disorders. The study was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 2020 and was conducted by researchers at the NIMH and the Eunice Kennedy Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. The study is titled "Prevalence of Mental, Behavioral, and Neurodevelopmental Disorders in Children and Adolescents in the United States, 2016-2018."

[@rwd1968]

Gold as always, Chris, thanks. Just an observation on the how, and why - we cannot overlook just blatant commercial opportunism. The same way schools have vending machines selling junk food, selling therapy to kids at an early age helps establish the customer base nice and early. (For the record, I am pro free markets and I have had therapy, but the discussion slightly overlooks the fact that a key driver here is orgs and individuals seeking to make bank).

[@IllIlllI]

Who would have thought that falling apparat family units would effect kids

[@jon8864]

That's a niche auto correct. Not sure why it thought you were talking about communist bureaucracy, although that would be a mind-fuck.

[@MyronLuis]

Incredible insight - and absolutely spot on

[@kestag2110]

Thanks you! Someone is actually making sense, I hope people who should be listening are.

[@debbielondon1809]

Kids aren't encouraged to run around like they used to! We have a modern version of "children should be seen and not heard". When was the last time you saw a group of kids organising themselves to play football for skip madly? Until they are exhausted and desperate for food? Instead we see mums and dads hovering over their little darlings, calling out "careful"...don't hurt yourself"... Btw...every child needs a good grandparent. :o)

[@geralldus]

This is fascinating, it makes the world slightly less baffling as an older person. It also goes some way to explaining the victim culture and willingness to self infantalise, that seems to pervade young people.

[@geralldus]

​@@brianmeen2158 If you are a victim, then there must be an oppressor for you to be a victim to. So is this simply a means of achieving a comfortable level of security and structure which mirrors the infantile containment and security provided by the parent/carer. Or perhaps it's a way of avoiding the development problems of integrating infantile aggression into a more manageable and adult expression of agency.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

This is a pretty incomplete view of why culture has moved the way that it has, with young people. Another very substantial component is going to be all the weird effects and side effects that social media has had on them, in addition to the rest of us. And another point to consider is that past generations also had problems like the current generations. But we just told everyone to shut up and use alcohol to suppress those problems. Which had its own problems. There is a victim culture among some people, but pinning it down and figuring out how much of a widespread problem it actually is, is pretty tricky.

[@LR-dm8wp]

THANK YOU ABIGAIL FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH 👏🏻

[@tmyoshimura621]

I’m actually really relieved about worries I had about my parenting by this talk. My child is a very imaginative person and a big fan of story drama… So as you can imagine, when she works with villains and dark dramas I sometimes wonder if it’s a symptom of unresolved trauma… But then again I also think it seems healthy she’s not negating expressing a knowing of this dark side of life. Many astrologers (whom I respect) suggest helping children with charts like hers with emotional regulation. But I don’t know if any fancy techniques and every time I try to interject when she’s upset (which is becoming more rare as she grows up), I would feel guilt for not successfully guiding her to do breath work or whatever. But after listening to this, I feel more secure that she’s honestly fine and just needs a bit more time outside playing and with friends when she’s not in school.

[@alexwatts6784]

Its almost like a badge of honor how some people talk about the traumas they experience or how bad their mental health is. Ive had girls talk to me about the medication they are on and I genuinely believe that all that medication is only exacerbating the problem.

[@renjithomas8088]

She’s excellent. Being an avid listener to your podcast, it was interesting to hear how your own biases crept in at different points. As you’re nerding out on your own discoveries in therapy (feeling the feelings), felt like you were pushing your current practices as something kids need. Kids live in there feels much too much these days.

[@hughiemg2]

I got the same sense - its as if Chris has had positive outcomes from therapy and was more defensive because of this.

[@polysaturated]

Chris doesn’t seem to get that therapy or mindfulness or talking about feelings is forced on the children

[@CarrieScotney]

Was like he couldn’t bear his precious ‘therapy’ being questioned!! Found his attitude irritating also i dislike it when he acts like he knows life with kids, he doesn’t. But mostly i rate him.

[@renjithomas8088]

@@CarrieScotneyare you saying mostly you like him or hate him?

[@everObvious]

Funny: I saw any debatable pushback as progress at Chris’ openly documented effort to overcome people-pleasing conflict avoidance.

[@marshallorr6220]

The food that we're allowed to eat dysregulates our emotions and makes things so much harder. A good diet is important in navigating our emotions as well as physical exercise. It may not eliminate issues but makes things easier to navigate.

[@skylinefever]

Without a doubt. I argue Big Ag lobbies to put garbage in our foods.

[@Some_kind_of_wonderfü]

This was a balanced conversation. Thanks, Chris, for pushing the conversation further rather than allowing the journalist to just make blanket statements and taking that as facts for all. I also liked the fact that you asked where she got certain statistics from and it’s apparent she’s lost trail of the origins as she’s not used to the pushback. Therapy is most certainly effective AND Gen Z is something else, for sure. A very real lack of resilience.

[@SpartanHoplite360]

I love how you make claims with no evidence whilst disliking her doing the same. "Most certainly effective" based on what

[@Some_kind_of_wonderfü]

I’ll let you know when Chris invites me to his podcast… stay tuned

[@LeahBensonTherapyTampa]

A therapist who knows what they're doing will ABSOLUTELY stop a non-stop rehearsal of stories of woe. If they don't, they're not doing their job. Which is to help expand a person's (including an adolescent) model of how to live successfully in the world and figure out how they are in their own way of doing so and guide them to the best ways to stop doing so given the constraints of their particular circumstances.

[@maniac50ae14]

I found this episode because ive noticed the toxic talk of "everyone should try therapy". All while mental illness has been on the rise since the 90s and the normalization therapy and language around it. An adult film star asked, "how can someone become more numb to adult movies and have performance issues, when im the one actually doing the stuff multiple times a day for a living and dont have those same problems?". I can posit a few answers to that question, but its still a good point and something people should think about before blaming adult content for their dysfunction. Ive also noticed that people who are evangelist for therapy are not unlike born again christians in that they exhibit this toxic behavior that says "im better than you because i work on myself"

[@CarrieScotney]

Such a good point

[@skylinefever]

The therapypill and Godpill are both treated as 100% effective, and the only reason it didn't work was someone failed to believe it well enough.

[@conureee]

@@skylinefevergood point. What are the alternatives though, for hope and a positive mindset are fuels we can't do without. It's a hard road to good mental health

[@skylinefever]

@@conureee I do not know. It's not like the mind just accepts an attitude transplant. Some argued that shrooms, ketmaine, and MDMA create a flexibility for minds that got set into their ways.

[@HJ-kb8bq]

That is the most wisdom I have heard on a podcast yet.

[@ricky4673]

Anxiety never hurt me. I barreled through and noticed the more I encountered it, the more I conquered it. Every single time I was uncomfortable. The next time in a simalur.experience, I was comfortable. Now, it is a guide to who is a bad person. I dont get uncomfortable about situations anymore, only certian people. It does not go away. It communicates something is wrong. Not what is wrong. You must find that out yourself.

[@hugh-johnfleming289]

In my mid 20s I was diagnosed a psychopath. I went into therapy, with an actual Doctor of Psychiatry, because I needed to understand two things; why my Mom treated me so differently than my siblings and why I needed to take such care in showing, well, care. My Mom had to teach me empathy. When I met my Beloved Wife, now of many decades, my Mom took her aside and explained all this to her. Mom could see that a great deal of my behavior was very puzzling for Her. My point is "therapy" works when it comes by way of actual qualifications, not some social worker that went to night school and got a certificate. Be careful where you lay trust. The world is full of morons...

[@TIOLIOfficial]

This is exactly the problem. There are more bad therapists that there are good ones. THAT is the problem.

[@pauldow72]

Brilliant interview again Chris - love the in depth thinking.

[@Lmomorrighan]

Never had therapy to learn how to manage my feelings… to answer his questions, I had friends, parents, hobbies, stoicism and my journal.

[@PatrickFletcher]

Love her! Truly awesome guest ...

[@aminawood1737]

So ready to hear this! Thank you, thank you.

[@HeyUncleJack]

Very interesting timing for this conversation giving your recent foray into therapy yourself.

[@JenniferMyers]

But, Chris is a fully grown adult, while the focus of her argument is on children and young people (not even necessarily young adults but really young people).

[@HeyUncleJack]

@@JenniferMyers I don't think I disagree with you at all. I just thought it was a funny coincidence that's all.

[@JC11378]

OMG! You can’t make this up… As I’m watching this interview an ad comes on for better help… A young man walks into the screen & sits down on a chair with a cat on his lap. This young man can’t be more than 20 years old and he goes onto to say not too long ago just the thought of going to the grocery store would fill him with crippling anxiety… But thanks to my therapist, Elizabeth I am now much better. Holy moly! If ever there was visual proof of everything Abigail is saying that ad is it! Imagine being a fully grown adult and going to the grocery store induces cripples anxiety? Good grief!

[@commandermudpie]

Rumination can be very very harmful. I have a "habit" of ruminating... staying in my head. I am much better now in my 60s. Add hobbies to the list of good behaviors. I paint little toy soldiers. What a gift it is to me.... haha... silly hobby... but it puts me in a flow state in my mind and keeps some goals in front of me. Also... my daughter tells me I am "autistic" partly because of my hobbies. My wife is also thinking in a similar way. They call me autistic because I am a successful engineer who plays table-top mini games. I push back very hard... I may have an odd personality.... BUT I AM NOT SICK. I call it medicalizing personality.

[@helenbeach5581]

🚴 Great listen while cycling.🚴 Chris, thank you for your specific questions. I am very interested in what Abigail offers for evidence (and am aghast by what I learn) yet I need questions like the ones you have raised. Because I admire Abigail’s research I need someone like you to ask serious questions that counter. So many pocketable quotes. Thank you both!

[@ZlatanZizou]

Interesting perspective, however it comes of as wanting to blame someone else for the problem rather than understand it, an easier way out than introspect oneself. Good work!

[@Dawamesk420]

As with many behaviours and concepts, I think a significant factor is the thought of "some is good, so more must be better" at the root of decision making. Many people think in those linear progressions, while reality, more often than not, looks like a graph for hormesis, where too much of an intervention can bring the result into the negative below base line. This thought pattern then results in the ignoring or minimizing of side effects as mentioned in the episode, as well as 2nd order consequences, consequences of upscaling etc. Because why would you deny someone "help"? Same concept applies for example to charities stifling organic economical growth in the recipient community. All of that being exacerbated by massive marketing/lobbying campaigns, and like Abigail mentioned, the "experts" being incentivised to keep the process going instead of evaluating when it's enough.

[@SharonMcCue]

This concerns me greatly. Our state in NY just passed a budget to cater to this topic. My district, Coxsackie-Athens is hyper-focused with “mental health” so much so, they are trying to create a “wellness” center in the school. It’s so scary for so many reasons. Not to mention one of the worst districts in the state academically.

[@mvmlego1212]

Here's my two cents on Chris's point around 1:04:30. Whether discussion of trauma helps or harms a person depends on whether the topic of trauma entered the discussion because of A) a therapist opening with "tell me about all of your trauma", or B) the client realizing, in the midst a discussion about their current problems, that past trauma was the cause I suspect that (A) is typically harmful, whereas (B) is likely to be helpful.

[@rickelpers1820]

In the 60’s growing up presented challenges, which eventually led me to believe that I spent my formative years in a state of depression , only to realize was serious depression in my 20’s and 40’s, became known as depression. Before that I was a skinny kid. I made the diagnosis the current (then), depression. Since then, I’ve been working it out. As a kid I was just a kid with good days bad days , which I would let the artist in me do art. It saved me. Better to analyze the parents. Let the kid be a kid naturally.

[@joey_ferrari24]

Chris can you or anyone send a link to the study on dancing being the best exercise for depression!? I’d be interested in that

[@mwatkins7450]

The study was a meta analysis of “older adults”

[@zebedeesummers4413]

I do greatly wonder if it is causal or correlation. I haven't ever found dancing easy when I'm feeling odwn

[@skylinefever]

@@zebedeesummers4413 I say the same. When depressed, trying to excercize is like trying to drag my body into doing things. Besides, the happiness never shows up anyway. Brain cell: I did the thing. Can I have the happiness chemicals squirted out and the right neurons sparked? Other brain cell: Hahaha, no.

[@davidhildebrandt2797]

Therapy is an industry like any other. Why would anyone be surprised that it seeks to grow?

[@DudePsychMD]

She's highlighting an underlying issue between psychiatrist v non-psychiatrist (i.e. mental health providers who are not medical doctors and not board-certified psychiatrist). Diagnosing depression & anxiety with the intent to always throw meds at it indiscriminately & indefinitely is the issue, and frankly, stupid. That is hallmark of what non-psychiatrists do.

[@AMETHYSTANGEL216]

💯💯💯 EXACTLY!!

[@breezyn]

I'm confused by your comment. I've had more help with my mental health treatment with a therapist/social worker than any of the psychiatrists have ever given me in my country. The psychiatrists here (and psych. nurses) are the only ones besides other certified medical professionals who can prescribe any medication at all. Therapists, counselors and social workers etc., have to rely on the patient/client working at their recovery or treatment for things to work. People self-diagnosing and self-medicating (often illegally) is a bigger problem from my perspective, but that is neither here nor there and she mentioned it already anyways in the video. Children being given the option to make life altering decisions based on phases is less about the doctors and more about the source themselves: The families. Not saying the medical field and therapy stuff is free of issues, its still a problem but it isnt the root cause. Parents have been losing the right to raise their own children, and yes I know that some of that was done to protect abused children, but that power has been given to the governments and whatnot. We have laws in some places that will send CPS/CAS or whatever you call it where you might be from, to take your child or investigate you if you dont allow your child to transition. These are serious problems, and any medical system or therapy organization that is aiding in that process, while a problem, is still less dangerous than parents giving up on their kids because the government told them to. Parents really have been losing their will to fight the government when it comes for their kids. I dont think any of this has anything to do with psychiatrists vs non-psychiatrist. Maybe people are also just getting worse at raising children...

[@DudePsychMD]

@@breezyn ​ I'm certainly not commenting about LCSW, Psychologists, and other therapists-especially the ones who do phenomenal jobs, which sounds like your overall experience and I'm glad to hear. I was referring to healthcare professionals who prescribe medications willy-nilly. Therapy is actually 1st-line treatment for depression and anxiety which I agree with and should be the crux of treatment before pursuing any further treatments. When they get too severe however, they often require medications which should be discussed with a doctor prior to starting to discuss-e.g. goals with treatment, context of the depression/anxiety, mindful of medical/psych/social histories, etc. (my approach).

[@ginnynolo9025]

Wow this was so eye opening!

[@CommonSyzygy]

Please interview Dr Lucy Johnstone, one of the authors of The Power Threat Meaning Framework. There is a much more nuanced line of thought to this from a critical psychiatry perspective of the biologocal model / focus. The difference between U.S and U.K funding for therapies (insurance vs NHS) allows space for differing models to be more explicit. We also had the national IAPT programme, now NHS Talking Therapies (in U.K) which may also be victim to some of the issues the interviewee shares - though there is also a lot of data available from a search of IAPT yearly report.

[@MaxKomes]

Psychotherapy intern here 👋 My interpretation of what Abigail is saying is that our modern world has been giving far too much weight to negative emotions, which are temporary. Ideally, we must encourage children to experience the adventure of life on their own accord and face natural consequences.

[@helenespaulding7562]

That sounds like a totally rational path. I wish you good luck in your career. I think you’re an outlier. I hope I’m wrong

[@bazmilo-furball1]

Hi max I think it’s nice you are a male psychotherapist I tend to believe when a field of expertise is gradually monopolised by women it tends to change to be more woman friendly (generally) a more ‘communitarian’ way of thinking (eg participation medals etc, not meritocratic) what are your thoughts on your field of study? Do women look at this as objectively as men do?,

[@MaxKomes]

@@helenespaulding7562 thank you for your response and blessing. You’re spot on - modern psychotherapy tends to be driven more by emotion than reason. In my own practice, I emphasize action- and logic-based solutions. It’s a fine line between embracing emotion, and letting it run amuck. Cheers Max

[@MaxKomes]

@@bazmilo-furball1 oh boy, I think about this day in and day out 😅. You are correct. The modern mental health industry is run majorly by a female presence. Females, in general, tend to be more intuition- and emotionally- driven. This creates an imbalance, where clients end up venting and ruminating rather than taking action and developing structure. People are craving a balance of logic and intuition. This is what I offer in my own practice, and hope that it grows~ Cheers, Max

[@w.geoffreyspaulding6588]

@@MaxKomes helene here. I come at this from a degree in Cultural Anthropology. You are absolutely correct: our system….for so long dominated by men, has now become dominated by feminine traits, and a balance needs to be restored. My fear is that, human nature being what it is, it never seems to reach equilibrium, but always must suffer through pendulum swing after pendulum swing….always to the extreme before a backlash whips it back to the highest point of the opposite arc. I thought of getting a Masters in counseling, but I would have been in my mid-fifties when I was done..so passed. I thought to take my knowledge of other cultures and apply them to couples counseling. Western culture had developed a very skewed view of romance and marriage, IMO: that a man and a woman should be EVERYTHING to one another, and fulfill all the other’s needs. Do everything together. No disagreements. Romance forever. So much pressure and expectations for marriage, especially by young women. And I would explain that that was an aberration, both culturally and throughout time. And try to take some of the pressure off and have a more realistic understanding that a marriage takes commit,ent and work. That was in the late 1990’s. Now, everything is totally FUBAR’ed. Young men and women don’t seem to even know how to talk to each other anymore. The cultural landscape is unrecognizable to me. Half-facetiously I muse that we might have to go back to arranged marriages just to get families going. 🙄. You’ve got your work cut out for you. I’m assuming you’ll go into private practice? If you go into a clinic, I’m afraid the women will take exception to your approach and make your life miserable. And I’m speaking as a 77 year old “OG” feminist.

[@jessesapolski8649]

What kids are experiencing today is FAR worse than world wars or the great depression. Today, there are worse things causing mental health problems AND the way the mental health field addresses these problems makes them worse. Double whammy

[@AMETHYSTANGEL216]

At 61, I'm 20 years sober and a well managed bipolar patient. I consider my meds as a cast. My mental fitness is 90% dependant upon purposefully practicing stoic principles, practicing my Christian faith, staying accountable to others who live responsibly. Imo, to many children are diagnosed by their parents or care givers and not by psychiatrists. Social workers, teachers, and pediatricians are not trained to diagnose and dictate who needs meds. Jus sayin'. Btw, if the therapist, using the CBT approach, the patient must do the work prescribed. If not, they'll be in therapy forever.

[@BWater-yq3jx]

And CBT is heavily based on Stoic principles. Which are very much like Buddhist principles. And these are PRACTICES, as you alluded to.

[@jennajewert]

Licensed Clinical Social Workers are trained to diagnose mental disorders but don't prescribe meds. The efficacy rate for CBT is the highest among all therapeutic modalities, it's been proven to work. Much suffering comes by our negative beliefs and thought habits, so when we learn to hold ourselves accountable by changing our beliefs and thoughts to more helpful ways of thinking, it often brings some relief. Sadly, some people just don't want to do the work so then of course, the tool fails.

[@TheTobs50]

Lots of critical questions need to be asked about the philosophical subtexts of psychotherapy, and the dangers and risks about those assumptions that are hardly ever brought to the surface.

[@LamondoHillII]

Good conversation, disagreed with some points of it but overall learned some new things. I’m getting faster on my runs finishing them before the podcast ends 😂. Thank you for posting!

[@localbod]

Unfortunately, because young people are triggered by everything and afraid of their own shadows therapy has become big business. Sadly, it has become fashionable as well. There are even adverts for therapists in the UK beginning to be seen online and on TV. It's a sad state of affairs.

[@teresaschafer6611]

We are handicapping kids unnecessarily!!! Give them tons of love, affection, good food, (cook real meals for them) rules, routines, responsibilities and fun activities

[@aliciabadashian7234]

Diagnosis is required for insurance to pay for therapy sessions. Hello!?

[@at802]

I’d love to dig deeper into this. Has anyone got any other recommendation of podcast, YT or books on the subject.

[@Anon.User.602]

A nice woman I used to date was busy with her work all the time, I wanted to break up because I was practically single. She said I had "PTSD" from my former relationship (who was an ambitious academic). If this was PTSD, what do the veterans have?

[@Searkar]

PTSD is different between individuals. Here is a thought experiment that might interest you, Let's say I (a veteran) have shot and killed 25 people but don't have PTSD. Let's say you (a veteran) have shot one and have PTSD. I'll make a claim then, if you think one person shot is enough for PTSD, then what do I have? Hopefully this illustrates how silly your comment is. I (non-veteran) lost both legs in a motorcycle accident, I have PTSD. I (a veteran) saw my friend lose both legs in an IED explosion, I don't have PTSD. Who is more right to have PTSD? Do you see how stupid this argument is.

[@skylinefever]

@@Searkar This is why I often wonder how some people get the worse case out of life, and somehow never get a flashback.