Monster Hunter Wilds Community Update (but for the Hunting Horn Users) - They did WHAT now???

[@_EXP626_]

Hunting horn buffed, support weapon nerfed. I’ve wanted this for so long, I literally shot out of bed when I heard this. Couldn’t be happier.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@_EXP626_ as long as the rebalancing makes it a net benefit to HH as a whole rather than just a nerf to the multiplayer aspect of it, it's all good with me

[@_EXP626_]

⁠@@KPlaysHereTrue true. I just always thought it was weird that the buffs had the same effect on others as it does for the HH user. HH is balanced around having buffs always at it’s disposal, while the other weapons are balanced around not having buffs so why would they get the same effects. Damage wise I mean.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@_EXP626_ I think Capcom looks at it more like "HH is balanced around being able to share buffs 1st, and as its own weapon 2nd", while other weapons are just looked at in that 2nd perspective. That's what sometimes makes HH's balancing so odd, and what's always had it be 1 of the weakest weapons in terms of damage potential: out of all 14 weapons, it's the only 1 that the devs take multiplayer into account for. We'll have to see how things settle in the full game, but I feel like they're onto something with this version...they're inching towards a way to finally balance it just like any other weapon while still keeping the buffing abilities feeling good

[@houseofthehuntinghorn1433]

Im down for the change. Let our team members get a sip of power. Maybe it'll stop ppl saying get in the corner and buff. If it gets me more power, im down for it

[@KPlaysHere]

@@houseofthehuntinghorn1433 yeah, that was never the go to with HH but now (mechanically and mathematically) there's really not much of an argument for a super support playstyle approach

[@higgsbosonfan]

The only people encouraging corner horning were hunting horn "mains" themselves. I wish this would make a difference, but if the corner horners could read, they'd have never done it in the first place.

[@houseofthehuntinghorn1433]

As well as if the duration is shorter when swapping is the due to the lack of horn mystro. We shall see i guess

[@KPlaysHere]

@@houseofthehuntinghorn1433 then they'd have to ask themselves if wasting a slot/slots for Maestro on a non HH is worth it vs just adding more skills for their actual weapon lol. Loving how it all comes together (or doesn't rather)

[@houseofthehuntinghorn1433]

@KPlaysHere cause imma go duel horn for play through then switch after at end game. So since I'll have HM on both weapons what then. There will be alot of questions to answer when the game drops. To see if there are any loop holes to exploit

[@Uno_Hunter]

As long as they dont nerf us like they did from the Rise demo into the full game, I'm fine. Though I have a feeling a lot of people who were going to use Hunting Horn to buff themselves then swap over are gonna be upset

[@KPlaysHere]

@@Uno_Hunter PLEASE no day 1 Rise nerfs...never again 😭 I think they actually want us to be stronger this time around though, so idk. The focus for rebalancing has mostly been on song stuff. We even got a couple moves buffed going from the public event demos to the open beta test

[@yelrathur1607]

I just wish that every horn came with attack up, it feels like i just automatically ignore a weapon if it doesn't have it.

[@MrDuck313]

I'd rather have them rebalance the songs, so that horns without attack up are not useless in the first place. And with echo bubbles, element up might actually become meta.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@MrDuck313 assuming/hoping that sound waves deal elemental damage. REALLY hoping that ends up being the case, because between Echo Bubbles and the new Recital Mode moves HH hits pretty darn frequently. Even if things don't work out that way though, Echo Wave Element+Element Up could still put in work. And I'm pretty sure they DID do exactly what you said in that 1st part. If the numbers stay like they are in the beta, every HH now has a 20% self damage buff by default. Attack S is 4%, and L will probably be like 8-10%. That's probably a small enough margin that you could have a no Attack Up Horn match or beat ones with it just with slightly better stats

[@KPlaysHere]

@@yelrathur1607 shouldn't have to any more! Looks like they took things in the opposite direction though and just made it so Attack Up is less impactful if you decide not to use it. Well actually...technically, they also gave every HH Attack Up too with the boost to Self Improvement. Some Horns will just also have smaller extra attack boosting songs too

[@Zarosguth]

I definitely think it's likely a case of spotty, on-the-fly translation (which I blame nobody for; translation is difficult, especially when talking in video game terms) combined with most people likely not being aware of the changes to Self-Improvement and Attack Up and Tokuda wanting to highlight those. To me it makes no sense to nerf the utility aspect for party members, especially if there's already pocket horn deterrents in the form of the Attack Up nerf and duration reduction when weapon swapping. Not to mention the question on how you would even reduce the effect of a bunch of songs without making the effect practically non-existent. So yeah, definitely my assumption is that it was about the re-balancing of Self-Improvement and Attack Up. You were there when Res talked about the wording Tokuda used and how it was translated. It just seems like a more sensible and not to mention easier road to go down than a full split in effectiveness for both the Horn user themselves and their party members.

[@KPlaysHere]

I can see that being the case. I remember it being mentioned that the Japanese term for Self Improvement specifically was used at 1 point but not translated that way, so there's definitely a chance of at least a couple muddy details there. It's just the framing of it as a post beta change instead of just something they wanted to highlight that had me thinking... Offensive buffs are probably the most likely songs for them to have been looking at for adjustments--and even then, maybe ONLY Attack Up, since Affinity Up and Element Up haven't had anywhere near the same impact. The more defensive/utility based buffs would be a bit weird to view as something 'op' that needs to be dialed back...and like you said, some may as well not even do anything if they're nerfed. Like, imagine Earplugs L, All Ailments Negated, or All Wind Res not giving teammates full effectiveness. Why would you even bother with them? But yeah, the other possibility is weird, but still a slight possibility with the way they brought it up. Small, but like...still non-zero imo. Vague wording was vague and all that. Really makes me wish they'd made time for a segment on all 14 weapons like they did with the 1st 5, but oh well 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@dade97asd96]

I think it's safe to say that every weapon got much stronger in general so it makes sense the support's nerfs. I love the horn movest in general so even if they would delete its support capabilities it would be fine for me.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@dade97asd96 true. You can't deny that support is a part of HH as an entire weapon though. The big question is mainly how 'strong' the ability makes it compared to and/or paired with other weapons

[@marmyeater]

0:13- I was thinking Great Sword, since they tend to be... passionate, but HH was my last pick for what they would actually be talking about a large number of people being passionate about, and I love the thing. I guess the trailers got people hyped for its BOOMING upgrades.

[@KPlaysHere]

I think all the chatter about the possibility of pocket horning put it on their radar too, along with the hype for all its buffs and changes. I'm excited for HH to really be getting some solid attention this time!

[@facade11663]

Hunting horn:"too strong as a sub weapon" HBG:can shoot the ground with demon ammo and get the same buff + can do 100% damage while mounted "this is fine"

[@Tidz13]

The demon ammo doesn't stack with one of the attack buffs the might seed or demon powder (I don't know which one) but hh does, that's the main difference

[@KPlaysHere]

Demon ammo just adds a set amount of attack. Attack Up multiplies base attack, so once we break a certain threshold (and it's pretty low, I think like 100 true raw) the song will be stronger even with the new nerfed values. The bigger problem with sub Bowgun is, well... literally everything else lol, on top of also getting buff ammo. Ranged damage, status, KO, etc.

[@woodster1839]

It all truly depends on numbers, I was quite happy to hear the changes planned for this type of playstyle and overall I’m quite on board with this idea! All though I hope they don’t strip too much away while giving little in return, I think that would be the worst way to handle it in my opinion

[@KPlaysHere]

@@woodster1839 that's the most important thing, mmhmm. If it's a rebalancing, then ok, but a nerf just because of the 2 weapon thing would be lame. I sure never asked for it, so I sure wouldn't want to be punished for it lol

[@Blasphemerousness]

Xth year of maintaining that straight attack up boosts just need to go out the window. I'll catch shit, but I'm including self-improvement; the fact that World had to tack on a damage buff to movement speed up-what should be a _huge_ boost on its own- _and it wasn't enough so they had to increase it, which still left horn at the bottom of the barrel_ should be a damning indictment of how intentionally hobbled the weapon was. Just give the poor thing the motion values it needs, no strings attached. Make our songs into utilities that increase damage uptime first and foremost, and if any dare do direct damage increases it should be situational (i.e. Adrenaline Rush) or come with a drawback (i.e. Mail of Hellfire). Mechanically incentivize skillful play like Generation's double notes that made uptime a breeze and healing songs worth anything at all if you were engaging with the monster, or something more novel like gaining bonus personal buffs for having buffed your allies. Horn _can_ still be both supportive and self-sufficient, it just requires a little more imagination and a willingness to break old paradigms that have just gone unquestioned.

[@Heliosxxx]

Solid video, as always, brother. I, for one, am just fine with the changes they mentioned. This opens the door to more HH options, too, as most hunters (myself included) would stick with the Att L horns and rarely swap to get that max DPS.

[@zblurth]

If the team buff is reduced and the personal buff is increased just think of it as team buffing because you are now killing the monster faster yourself

[@KPlaysHere]

@@zblurthexactly, IF they balance out the numbers just right. This'll be the case for Horns without Attack Up because Self Improvement now gives 20%--that's like AuXL for free, on every song list, but JUST for you. Bringing Attack Up into the mix though...idk. There's probably some math you could do to hypothetically see how stronger buff HH+weaker buff teams compares to the old way of everyone getting the same buff, buuuuut I'd rather not mess around with that till we actually get some official full game numbers

[@Willowsworldx3]

Oh so the same logic behind sticky spam buffing the team then 🤨

[@KPlaysHere]

@@Willowsworldx3 a bit hard to put exact math behind giving your team 100% DPS uptime but...lol kinda? Speaking of which, seems like the new sub weapon exploit really IS gonna be pocket Bowgun now🤔

[@Willowsworldx3]

If the dmg buff for demon ammo stays that strong.. its a possibility but I don't its gonna be so drastic people break their habit of useing one weapon. Tbh it makes more sense for me to use a swax and CB simultaneously then attempt any of these "sub weapon exploits" which in may opinion is like the lowest engagement we could have with the multi weapon system

[@derandi2324]

i personally hope the buff strength rebalancing mainly sticks to offense songs atk, element, affinity, if more than attack gets affected. personally the defensive and utility songs are a HUGE part of why i love hunting horn. one of my favorite songlists using wide range to grant immunizer, recovery speed song and extended recovery for some very solid heals with relatively low amounts of upkeep provided your teammates use your echo bubbles.

[@BilliamTorpedo]

I dont have any strong opinions about the team buffing capabilities, but as a mostly solo horner that uses a damage meter when i play multiplayer, its gonna feel good to be on the top of the list.

[@strongrudder]

I'm willing to wait and see, but I'm a bit sad about the concept of reduced team support, since even as another mostly-solo HH main, in the 5th gen games I've loved joining random hunts to relax while giving some teams a dooter. *My* hot take is I'm fully open to the nuclear option of having song effects end instantly on weapon swap. Removing HH as a secondary except for people who actually intend to USE it for at least portions of a hunt is an acceptable trade (to me) for keeping the support side of the weapon strong.

[@sarbe6625]

If anything shouldn't they have made the change where the hunting is stronger to others but lesser to yourself if they wanted to prevent pocket horning? Because that way at worst each very focused and coordinated playgroup would bring at most one pocket horns because any more would just not be worth it. And anyone playing solo or with randos would be hard pressed to find a reason to ever bring a pocket horn regularly. The duration decreasing when the horn is unequipped was probably the right call tho. Imo they should even take it a step further and have all the HH buffs just immediately stop applying their effect the moment the horn that applied them is unequipped. And then like, add the function back as a skill so people who really want to can still do that but it's something that requires designing your whole kit around.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@sarbe6625 multiplayer pocket horning was a possibility too, so doing it the other way around wouldn't have tackled the full issue. The way it sounds like they're doing it the strongest/longest buffs will be on you, while using a HH. It's a way to encourage actually using HH, not JUST discouraging any exploits.

[@sarbe6625]

@KPlaysHere The problem is that the way they seem to be implementing it makes worse as a support weapon which sucks because we already don't have much in the way of weapons/playstyles that can play a more active support role. Though honestly I think all they really needed to change was the timer on the buffs being way shorter when the horn gets unequipped. Like maybe 10 or 20 seconds at most. That way you can maybe do some funky things like wake-up hits or pulling off a heavy hitting combo with your secondary weapon before swapping back. But you'd have to actually main the weapon to get consistent use of the buffs to the point where you get to actually fight the monster with them active. The whole changes to the strength of the buffs depending on whether they're on the horn player or the receiver is just a lot of unnecessary complication and kind of an overreaction.

[@Purpletrident]

I don't care if buffs last after swapping, I just want to see the rest of the song lists and special attacks! It doesn't bother me if someone wants to use horn as just a buffing tool since it doesn't affect how I play at all. They're missing out on an amazing weapon if that's how they play though!

[@KPlaysHere]

@@Purpletrident exactly! It's crazy to think that they may be adjusting the game with that in mind over at Capcom though

[@FuzzyTurtle9000]

I wouldn't mind a summoning sickness type thing (call it "tuning") where other players don't get the full buffer effect for a few minutes after swapping to a horn

[@KPlaysHere]

@@FuzzyTurtle9000 you mean like it'd take you a few minutes to be able to fully use HH buffs if you swapped to it from another weapon? Idk...maybe if it went the opposite way around (off off the Horn, instead of to it)? Since you'd be nerfing the HH while using the HH the other way, rather than nerfing its effects on another weapon like Capcom's trying to do

[@Druid-T]

6:02 After thinking about this for a little bit (like you said) an unfortunate question came to mind (which you did touch on towards the end of the video): How far can that balancing philosophy go until you start question why it has the ability to buff allies to begin with? I really don't like the idea that you could ask that question, so my hope is that it's like what you said at the end, where the offensive songs (Attack up, Elemental Attack up, Affinity up, potential Sharpness Regen/Lose reduced) get some of their power moved to solely the HH user, but the more defensive and utility songs (whatever the Stamina drain modifier song ends up being, Wind Negation, Tremor res, the various healing song) remain largely unchanged, because that's a fair way to rein in the numbers of Hunting Horn, without heavily affecting the true power of it in a multiplayer context

[@KPlaysHere]

@@Druid-T I don't think they'd ever pull the ability to buff others entirely, since it's built into the weapon's identity...but there's a risk when reducing the effectiveness of that ability that it could be weakened to the point where it doesn't really mean much. I do trust that Capcom knows better than to take things to that point (if anything, the way they're looking at handling HH now has me feeling like they've finally 'cracked the code') but it's still something to think about. We'll just have to see whether the 'power' they want to balance out with HH is more literally the ability to boost damage, or its overall supportive capabilities period. The latter is the real draw to the weapon, but the former is what arguably puts it in a grey area when it comes to balancing.

[@IM_HIM495]

I can't wait for this to come out I've already pre ordered

[@KPlaysHere]

Same! The suspense is killing me...

[@joereed8872]

I would be sad but not disappointed is hunting horn became more selfish focused. It is probably true that it is unfair to keep a weapon from feeling strong solo for its strength as a group weapon, so this potential change would address 2 balance problems at the same time. But the feeling of joining a hunt with the doot stick and empowering the group to go crazy is a unique feeling that will be missed. I know it won't be gone, but it could feel like its missing if the nerf is harsh enough

[@KPlaysHere]

@@joereed8872 this is why I'm hoping that they JUST adjust offensive buffs. That way the power shifts more to HH (letting it be stronger overall, and not balanced for Attack Up XL in a group like that's just its default setting) and you can still cram utility/defensive/healing songs down teammates' throats at full effectiveness lol. Still supportive, but adjusted to match up much better with other weapons

[@joereed8872]

@@KPlaysHere even if the nerfs don't touch the utility songs, nerfing the attack songs will be felt. But I definitely agree over all with what you said

[@KPlaysHere]

@joereed8872 true, for the group total at least. If the HH users themselves are stronger though, they should be able to make up for the difference (math will have to be mathed once the full game comes out on that 1 though lol). Personally, I don't mind if that's how it goes. It'd encourage more HH players not to do the whole passive supporter thing and actually get in there aggressively

[@uramaki6580]

In my opinion the line that Capcom is taking is the right one. The atk up L song has always been a problem for online/offline balance. I always thought it was enough just to have horns with lower raw power and atk up songs and horns with higher raw and only utility songs, but the idea of ​​increasing the damage of the self improvement buff is much more elegant and thematic. I'm not even afraid that the nerf to all team buffs will make the participation of us Mains less "recognized", because the truth is that apart from those who use the greatsword and always try to reach the highest damage, the ones we always get thanked for are the resistance to wind/roars/tremors or stamina for bows and dual. I therefore hope that the nerf will be mainly on the offensive songs and not on the utility ones which will already be nerfed due to the presence of much more defensive skills on the armor sets.

[@SilverTwinkle]

People said "Support Weapon" and we took that personally. However i disagree with the Hammer changes. Launching people was the funniest thing in the entire game and had alot if strategem to it. They can just make Shockproof available early. PS: I hope you had a great Christmas time and wish you a nice Weekend! Keep going strong, my Horn buddy.

[@SirBanana1992]

the only concern I have hearing this is if the duration cut is gonna affect those that want to double horn by bringing 2 horns with different buffs. Then does that cut still apply if the weapon you're swapping to is still a hunting horn.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@SirBanana1992 it shouldn't. I don't know how they'll end up programming it, but it'd probably make the most sense for the game to just check whether or not you're using a HH. Shouldn't have to be the SAME HH. If for whatever reason they did do it that way though, there's always the option to just use an All Melodies Extended Horn to extend the durations back to normal again

[@elex3737]

I'm pretty sure they were refering to the Self Improvment buff + Attack Up nerf, I mean as you said that's not an obvious change in the beta so I think they took that chance to mention it, or they were refering to AU(L) being still too strong. Nerfing the support capabilities on other songs beats the purpose of "nerfing attack up because is meta mandatory", and yeah you don't call support to a mere buff in attack and nothing more, that's boring, I think they clearly want more songs to be usefull in multiplayer without the need to sacrifice 20% of the party damage. And that's backed up with what I've been able to see until now: BRILLIANT, they managed to make the optimal playstyle not only fun as a stand alone weapon, but also a highly fun way of supporting with just the bubbles and the KOs capabilities, a lot of friends really felt the evasion up when the field was filled with bubbles, or the 3 or even 4 KOs I was getting per hunt. And that's just makes me more excited for the final product: What about more bubble types? What about supporting specials melodies? What about the songs? taking into acccount how we just naturaly encore in the hunt? I really feel like is not only gonna be the most fun version of the HH as a stand alone weapon, but the most fun regarding support as well, and taking away the AU dependency is vital in this task.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@elex3737 true. Them saying that they WILL adjust those songs effects instead of they ALREADY adjusted them came off as odd to me, but honestly it's not exactly unlikely that the difference could've just been due to the Japanese>English translation...either that, or like you said they went further and adjusted some songs we didn't have in the beta (mainly the stronger version of Attack Up). You've got a good point in the next part too. I mentioned in the other video where I confirmed the changes in the beta that this is a great thing for other songs. If you lose less from not using Attack Up, you can get more out of other utility buffs that don't usually come with it. Other lists become a lot more valuable...unless, of course, if everything becomes weaker for teammates. That'd go against the good possibility they could have here, so hopefully they don't go that route. Offensive stat buffs are the only things that need to/should be touched. Shoot, maybe even JUST attack. Element and Affinity Up have never really had nearly as much of an impact on the game. Whichever way it goes, you're right! They've been doing nothing but good things with the additions and changes to HH's usual playstyle. Faster, stronger, more fun...hopefully still just as useful from a buffing perspective, if not even more so!

[@petercottantail7850]

reducing the effects for others seems bad. this is one of those things in game design where it most likely is the correct way to balance the situation using purely math or spreadsheets. but for a game to have that impact for the player to really feel something, sometimes you have to push it up a notch to express that idea. getting baby buffs gives off a bad vibe, you want to have your eyes opened and be like oh yeah now this is the good stuff. but if i were to think a bit more about the context tho, it being reduced probably means that they don't last as long on others, like when you swap to another weapon so you can't pocket horn the team. or it's both, and the same melody effects for the user are the same as the team instead of unique version for both like 8 was kinda assuming it was going to be we'll see. i suppose we'd know if att up in the beta did 4% for others or just the user, even though that's old news

[@KPlaysHere]

That's exactly why it'd probably be best if they were only referring to offensive buffs. It might still be unfortunate that the team loses out, but you'd be able to make up that damage yourself while also letting them benefit fully from any utility buffs you'd be sharing. I think they were mostly referring to the Attack Up rebalancing honestly... it's just weird that they phrased it as an upcoming change rather than an existing change, unless there's at least a little more to it than we've already seen so far

[@Monsoonasaurus]

My impression is that HH has always been balanced for multiplayer. Buffing teammates as a tradeoff in damage. Which is why solo play was down on the list. I think we could easily look at the song list, and pick four horns with four damage buffing boosts that would break a hunt if played together and then swapped to "Main Weapons." Imaging getting the buff of four different horns and then swapping to all of the top of the line damage dealers. It would be silly. It's not going to matter for me. I'm still going to aim to take two horns with me. If they're still leaning in the elemental over raw I'll have my main elemental horn for whatever is being hunted, and then I'm thinking keeping a poison horn around as my second and swapping to reapply as necessary. Who knows, maybe poison and paralysis, and just swap to the other when the status goes off. That's the thing right! I don't have to pick between damage dealing and monster counter anymore. I can have both. If we're doing good, maybe i'll bring a general damage dealer. If the monster is kicking us around, I can bring something that negates "whatever". It's a very exciting possibility for the HH!

[@kevadu]

Personally I'm not really a solo horner at all. I do enjoy multiplayer. But I also never picked up HH to be 'support'. I just liked the feel and playstyle of the weapon. And as such doing more damage myself is always a win.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@kevadu I think anyone that's just in it for the playstyle feel is REALLY winning in Wilds lol, they pulled out allllll the stops there. Any buffs or rebalancing that does good things for the weapon from a balancing perspective is just icing on the cake!

[@lewangg]

I've always loved the HH but it was never my main due to dmg output for solo hunts. I'm a little sad that now that it's going to be my main for Wilds, they nerf the support capabilities. However I'm really holding out for the songs that aren't the core stats (attack, def, HP) remain untouched in terms of support. I'm talking about those like earplugs, element res etc... But if the nerf is aimed at pocket horn being forced in meta builds then I guess they'll nerf all songs. I'd rather they just make it so swapping off horn cancels said horns active songs than reduce the buff strength for the full party & reduce active time.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@lewangg I do think that stat boosts may be the main thing the rebalancing is gonna end up focusing on. It would be weird to look at certain utility buffs and see Capcom REALLY thinking that they make HH too strong. I mean, they just added the Wind/Tremor/Roar Resist effects back to IG's extracts by default. Something like HH's Divine Protection song is hardly gonna break the game

[@lewangg]

@KPlaysHere I hope you are right maestro!!!

[@Pike_Analysis]

I'm glad it's moving out of the shadow of "support weapon" but one change in particular might be a big nerf to double horn setups. If you lose buff duration when switching weapons, does that mean you lose buff duration when swapping from one horn to another? We'll know for sure on full release, but the dream of a turbo buffed double horn playstyle may be dead before the game arrives.

[@Revonlieke]

AuXL does not exist in Low-High rank game. what's weird about this is that they nerfed how HH buffs effect other people in the party and nerfed those, while yes at the end game there can be some insane buffs like no sharpness loss, generally I would say the balance has been ok for other people in the party. And buffing personal dmg just sounds like the weapon is going more solo focus as well, which isn't good imo. since it can remove the point of having a HH at all. But we'll have to wait and see. It should have just been a simple: Only AuS skill is retained if swapping to another weapon, all other buffs are either treated like self-improvement, or are just filtered out from the player. Heck I'd be ok with it putting them on hold for the player so they don't effect the secondary weapon, but if you swap back the buffs come back.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@Revonlieke AuXL does show up around mid High Rank actually, as soon as you get purple note Horns. We'll have access to it in Wilds' base game, 100% As far as the logic goes, I think they're looking at the 'overpowered-ness' mainly coming from straightforward stat increases more than utility. In most scenarios it kinda makes sense, but like you mentioned some 'utility' songs like Sharpness Regen (really wanna see that song come back btw) can potentially be VERY impactful. I guess things like that are just harder to quantify in their play testing maybe? In any case though, offensive boosts should probably be the main targets for this kind of rebalancing. Sharing utility stuff is the signature gimmick of the weapon, and imo that's fine as is. Damage boosts are in a sort of separate category to me (and probably Capcom too) because they're the main reason HH has to be balanced the way it usually is. You can only give a weapon that makes other weapons stronger but so much power of its own, y'know? So if they dial the attack boosts back, they can 'allow' HH itself to be stronger. Utility and defense songs are mostly just helpful benefits that don't need much adjustments in comparison Tbh, I like the shift towards more personal power. Those changes benefit multiplayer HH too--you're still in the group fighting the monster too after all. You'd still be benefitting the team some; the total damage potential you bring to the table may just shift less from the overall buffing and more from your actual damage output. If you ask me, that just means HH users HAVE to pull their weight for best results. No more just contributing buffs and acting like that's all 'support' players have to bring to the table lol

[@Revonlieke]

​@@KPlaysHere Hmm, I get the point I think, will have to wait and see how it turns out. I do hope they also nerf the utility stuff as well then, especially if something like Sharpness Regen is on the table. That song has a potential to ruin players enjoyment of the game when their sharpness meter is just a UI decoration :D I'm not entirely sure about the song repeat potential in Wilds, but I suspect it's closer to Sunbreak than World considering the melody restock mechanics. So if song repeat potential is high, utility skills also kinda need a nerf.

[@fmaho3139]

Does the hunting horn have the mossif being op due to the two weapon system. Yes. Should the buff only apply to themselves. No. A better solution would be to have the songs effect be tied to the hunting horn. In other words, you swap out, you lose out. The main issue is that hunting horns mechanic carries over when changing weapon, this is unique among the weapons so they should either just live with the interaction knowing a portion of the players will use it or just remove that interaction. Balancing around the mechanic is a dangerous slope that just might end up ruining the identity of the horn.

[@neklin7150]

If it was my choice I would just make switching away from the horn clear all song buffs. You want the dood juice? Than use the dood

[@KPlaysHere]

That's definitely an option, but I think they'd want to avoid punishing HH users that want to swap weapons every now and then for whatever reason (not just people trying to exploit it by doing things the other way around). It'd probably be a pain to have to reapply all your buffs every time you swapped if HH was actually your primary weapon and you decided to use a secondary for something

[@uhjn]

I wouldnt mind the drop off on team mates, I hate to say it but most players wont care about a 5 or even 10% dmg drop from us😅

[@KPlaysHere]

@@uhjn yeah...most players probably don't notice the difference as is, so a drop might not mean much in the long run lol. HH=boosts=happy teammates may just be burned into the community's minds for good, buffed, nerfed, or unchanged. For me though, I DO get the numbers, so I'm hoping that we at least gain just as much elsewhere as we lose (if we lose anything that is)

[@touchthebacon5447]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I don't care for the weapon-swapping mechanic as a whole.

[@HikkiNeeto]

only thing i hope, capcom coding for cut hunting horn song duration isnt effected dual hunting horn user yeah prolly "not fair" but fck it, is LS can take every sweet every game, why HH cant? i feel like if HH song didnt get cutted when swap weapon, there is "bad group" badmouthing HH main like "why you using useless weapon for main, just use other weapon and use that weapon for buffing only"

[@WeeWeeJumbo]

everybody got good news (except Horn players)

[@LowellGreene-gy6fg]

Ty K

[@PhokingiLL-m7y]

HH tourists be damned. Leave that to bowgun demon shots lol.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@PhokingiLL-m7y pocket Bowguns seem like a MUCH more busted possibility to me tbh. Buffing ammo, sticky ammo, status ammo, the ability to swap to ranged distance on the fly...

[@PhokingiLL-m7y]

@@KPlaysHere I'm definitely keeping an HBG in the tuck for release. I really enjoyed its defensive options and satisfying shot impacts during the beta. 👌

[@KPlaysHere]

@PhokingiLL-m7y I'm gonna be 2 Horns all the way lol. Was considering a gun just in case for some gimmicky speedrun strategies, but with status ailment songs I probably won't even need to

[@ramadhanbenny6640]

demon ammo being more busted is understandable as it consume resources

[@KPlaysHere]

@@ramadhanbenny6640 it's a lot easier to pop on the fly though, compared to needing to queue up and play a song. Po-tay-to po-tah-to I guess lol. But that aside, song buffs are actually stronger than ammo buffs. Demon ammo was only stronger in the beta because it added 10 attack to 100 true raw weapons (110 attack total) while Attack Up was multiplying 100 true raw by 4% (104 attack total). In the full game, once we can get past 106 true raw--which will happen extremely early--multiplying will be stronger than adding and HH will be the better attack boosting weapon again. Even more when we get AuXL, which I'm guessing will be like an 8-10% multiplier. The Bowguns' supportive abilities will be better when it comes to lockdown with status/KO. Well, unless the Horns with status Echo Wave songs give them a run for their money that is. We'll see...

[@jockpackage1770]

I'm the type that gives 0 shits about the meta, I just want to have fun. So, I don't care if attack up gets nerfed. It should, in fact. Chiefly so that dooters don't have to deal with people wining to them for daring to use a horn that doesn't have attack up. I am sad that they are nerfing songs when you swap weapons. Again, I'm the type that likes having quirky fun, with silly strats, so the idea of having 2 horns/2 song lists. All to enjoy juggling almost 2 songs lists, adapting to a wider variety of situations, as I beat a monster to exhaustion and death with my team sounded fun. Other weapons with weapon specific differences, such as DB, GL, CB, bowguns, and bow. These, respectively having; differing elements/duel elements/duel statuses/element and status pairings, different shelling types, different phial types, ammo types/ammo stats/special ammo/gun mods, and coating types. These weapons are all free to be swapped as you swap weapons. It's a shame that, because of what HH is by being able to buff a whole team, that this one weapon seams to required all these extra restrictions. Don't a lot of these other weapons provide enough to the whole team for similar consideration of lack there of. Saying, in multiplayer, that a GS user, for example, does not benefit from a teammate swapping to a bowgun with sleep or paralysis ammo on the fly is simply untrue. Or someone swapping CBs, wanting to use elemental phials mainly but choosing to pull out impact a few times to get KOs. I'm not worried yet, I'm simply pointing out a hole in their logic.

[@KPlaysHere]

@@jockpackage1770 agreed about Attack Up. It's a good change, both for the meta and for fun/variety. I feel like it'd be easy enough for them to have the duration decrease on songs just based on your equipped weapon type. Easier, in fact. That way, if you swap from a HH to another HH you'd still keep the usual timer, rather than the game trying to keep track of which buffs came from which Horn. After all, with what it looks like they're trying to do, they're trying to reward HH use...double HH is just that x2 lol The catch, I think, that has HH treated differently than other weapons, is the fact that while other weapons can benefit the hunt HH can directly benefit other players. I totally get and agree that something like a solid status gunner can compete or even beat out what HH songs can bring to the table, but I feel like Capcom sees things a bit differently there. They kinda have to actually, otherwise we wouldn't have examples like the Bowguns having such strong supportive abilities AND high damage potential because instead of boosting other players, they're just really good at locking down monsters. The definition of 'support' is different to them there, so it gets handled differently. SHOULD it? Well, that's another conversation entirely...

[@jockpackage1770]

@@KPlaysHere It's an interesting discussion for sure. Overall, I'm very really happy with the weapon changes that we are going to get. My only other thing where I was a bit disappointed was them not addressing how aiming with IG, because of the controls being altered for focus mode, is a lot worse... But only for controllers. After all, they said focus mode was optional for every weapon. IG feels... less like that, if the claw grip is needed to aim and shoot with those triggers being mapped on the same side.

[@KPlaysHere]

@jockpackage1770 yeah, not addressing the IG controls thing was an odd choice... seemed like they were hoping that giving it a counter and returning aerial play would make people not care as much, but the former being on the move you need the funky grip for in the 1st place kinda doubles down on the issue instead of fixing it imo

[@jockpackage1770]

@@KPlaysHere It's not like you're using aiming while in the air but if you want to use focus mode while in the air, that will take some getting use to.

[@Zatiels]

Well, I always play in a party of 4, I'm the support, they deal the damage, so this is bad for me, I guess...

[@KPlaysHere]

That's also something that they're trying to shift away from, even though it's not part of what they've outright said. Even while 'supporting' they want HH to be dealing damage in its own right--that's why Echo Bubbles encourage you to be close to the fight to buff others+deal more damage, song playing is now the strongest attacking option, and now self damage boosts are the strongest.

[@GodEater015]

Thank god they nerfed pocket horn. I love HH but I don’t want to be forced to run it all the time as my secondary.

[@KPlaysHere]

The easy solution would be to just run it as your primary instead 😋 Lol but for real, I'm actually pretty pleasantly surprised that they're taking it so seriously. I thought it'd just be an issue only HH mains would be concerned about