Morality: Christian vs Atheist

[@JonathanLozada]

When he said, "1000 years from now when you're in heaven and I'm in hell maybe we can have this conversation again," I had this overwhelming sadness come over me and teared up. Praying for you Emery. We love you brother!

[@marydiggins9294]

He’s not our brother. His God is himself, Emery.

[@JonathanLozada]

@marydiggins9294 Ok. Still love em' and praying for him!

[@midimusicforever]

@@marydiggins9294 You can view it as wishful thinking of future prospects.

[@elizabethryan2217]

​@marydiggins9294 that sounds pretty harsh to me, and, tbh, very similar to some of the things he mentioned that put him off Christianity. I can understand why. 😢

[@marydiggins9294]

@@elizabethryan2217 Love tells the truth.

[@PiRobot314]

I understand the hesitancy to have open dialogue. The first actual conversation I had as a Christian with an atheist was terrifying because he was vocalizing so many of the doubts that I had been suppressing. This sparked an interest in apologetics so I could actually answer some of those objections. I understand that not everyone is willing to have that in-depth of a discussion that might undermine their beliefs

[@velkyn1]

Most atheists were some kind of theist, I was a Christian, and we know apologetics very well. You may want to consider your religion as an outsider and consider how someone not believeing in it will regard claims made with no evidence. i would suggest also reading the counter apologetics that atheists have written. A website with a good number of them is Internet Infidels. IF you go to their website, you will see on the left where you can click on the "library" and then from there you can choose what to read. I recommend starting with the modern library subject index. This way it may not feel as threatening to you or anyone else who would like to see what atheists have to day.

[@Apollos2.2]

That's a good testimony. Has your apologetics study helped you?

[@PiRobot314]

@@Apollos2.2 In some ways yes, because it has helped me have a better understanding for the arguments on both sides, which is always good in any discussion. However, it has also shifted my faith away from group-think to evidence-based, and that is a big shift in mindset. Now that I have spent a long time developing an expectation for evidence, I am not entirely sure whether Christianity can attain that level of evidence.

[@Apollos2.2]

@@PiRobot314 interesting 🤔 As opposed to....? Atheism? Buddhism? Mormonism? I find Christianity holds up very well in the evidence based territory, especially against Atheism.

[@PiRobot314]

@@Apollos2.2 It's not that I've found any other religion that I think has more evidence. To see what I mean, take a major claim of Christianity such as Jesus's death and resurrection, for instance. I haven't found evidence that specifically refutes that claim, but it seems at least reasonable to not believe it because the evidence for it is not as strong as I had expected from the beginning. I often hear apologists talking about the gospels being written early, implying that there was no time for development, but even ten or twenty years seems like a long time for stories to change (especially when the earliest gospel of Mark did not explicitly mention a rather key detail in the story -- namely that of people seeing Jesus after He rose from the dead). Again, I can't disprove it, but I am just saying that it is not as strong as I initially expected.

[@SamIRIZARRY84]

This was fascinating. These are the types of conversations people should be having across the board. Completely respectful of one another and they both listen to the argument before interjecting for the most part. So many conversations I see is just people talking over each other and not hearing the opposing side. Not one changing the others position but still maintaining the relationship in the end. Loved this

[@Reclaimer77]

It's time to stop wasting time with discussions like this so we can move humanity forward. Theists want us living in the dark ages under a brutal oppressive god and his antiquated rules. Just no. It needs to stop.

[@davidhawkes1981]

He is humble. God can work with him. ❤

[@barbarahansen5353]

This is why I love this channel. Sean embodies speaking the truth in love, which includes respectful listening and NEVER resorting to attacking the other person or forcing them to see his “rightness.”

[@bjsimpson4768]

@@davidhawkes1981 God isn’t capable of working with anyone but the humble? Thought it was omnipotent.

[@erichodge567]

This was perhaps the best discussion between a Christian and an atheist I have yet heard. It was respectful on both sides, and both Sean and Emery dealt seriously with the other's arguments.

[@stephenduris8291]

Wow! This really makes a Christian think a lot more. Really appreciate Sean having these conversations.

[@theincantrix5725]

It shouldn’t be cause to think. The guest is a humanist. By his own logic, if God revealed Hell to him (which he also doesn’t grasp), he would start killing babies. Ultimately, he wanted to fit into his college society, to mock the church society he left.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

christians don't think, if they did they'd realise god is no more real than santa. you just do as you're told and live in fear of hell.

[@paulajames6149]

If anyone is interested Mike Winger did a Q&A two weeks ago specifically for skeptics. The first question he covered relates to one of Emery’s scenerio, if God asks us to do something we think is wrong. The question relates to the story of Abraham. He had a thorough and robust answer to that question. Thanks Mike!!!

[@Wentletrap213]

That was fantastic.

[@ShanYalesTale]

I really enjoy Mike Winger's channel. He really helps bring clarity to many questions.

[@elizabethryan2217]

Mike is brilliant. Fair play to him! 👏👏

[@EatHoneyBeeHappy]

The lesson we are meant to learn from Abraham is that Yahweh rewards us for obeying him, even if we think his command is wrong and even if it goes against his previous commands, meanwhile disobedience is punished.

[@elizabethryan2217]

@@EatHoneyBeeHappy not sure about that. 🤔 We are told to test against scripture, that which we sense might be the Spirit's voice, so that we *can judge* what is right or wrong from a Godly point of view. I don't think God *ever* asks us to do things which are morally wrong or contradict his law. 🙏🏼

[@melodyc369]

Sean, this was such a great example of how to have a thoughtful conversation with someone you disagree with. I really appreciate how you listened to know him and considered his thoughts, not listening for how to respond with an argumentative comeback of how he's wrong. I struggle with this one. Thank you for demonstrating how to love someone we fundamentally disagree with.

[@paulajames6149]

I am so impressed with this conversation. Thanks Emery for your thoughtful and articulate perspective. I don’t know why but when I look at your eyes I see pain and sadness and I want to know more. I cannot wait for part two! Thanks to you both. It was very meaningful to me.

[@tonyengli]

Emery is a friend of mine and a great guy but he has a complete blind spot on the issues including fairness. He claims he rejected god based upon “fairness issues”. Yet then he claims fairness is subjective. Seems self refuting. He he a tattoo on his arm that says “50,000”. When someone asks him what that means he says “that’s the number of children that die every day”. So a good god cannot exist. I asked him how many would need to not die to allow the existence of a good god? Never got an answer. So basically he claims unless everything is perfect, god cannot have any good reason to allow children deaths. This is a claim that cannot be known. The reason children dying is bad is because they have value because god created them. Fairness is real because FAIRNESS is grounded in the nature of God. We all sense fairness is real without a need to argue for why it’s real.

[@emerywang]

Tony my man! Actually the tattoo says "26,000". It's based on research I did around 2003 where the average number of children under age 5 that die of starvation every day was estimated to be that number. As a result, I created a bumper sticker that said: "26,000 children will die of starvation today. Why should God answer your prayers?" It was a critique of the idea of petitionary prayer, and a response to George W. Bush's promotion of the National Day of Prayer at that time. As I sat in Austin behind a big SUV in traffic with a National Day of Prayer bumper sticker on the back, I started wondering "what exactly are we supposed to pray for...?" Good to hear from you man. Thanks for watching the show. Hope we can catch another Stryper concert together one day.

[@MrSturdystratus]

I noticed in his entire conversation it’s me, I, me nothing about others

[@rolandwatts3218]

@@MrSturdystratus Well, he was being asked questions about himself. I'd wager that if you were asked questions about your behaviours and your ideas your replies would be about "me", "I" , "myself". And I suspect if you re-listen to the video you would find that Emery talks about others a lot.

[@gsp3428]

Why is children dying any different from an ant or a pig or a chicken dying. What makes humans so important.

[@desertrose0601]

This was fascinating. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so deeply into a relativistic mind. Seems like a scary place for him to be in.

[@erichodge567]

They said that about Einstein, too. But for better or worse, that is the universe we live in. Wagging your finger at it won't make one bit of difference.

[@gedcaeneus4628]

@@erichodge567Einstein was a fraud and theory of relativity isn’t science.

[@radscorpion8]

Its not so much that he is devoted to relativism, it is simply that by all accounts this is the true state of affairs of the universe we live in. The atheist has to be brave and willing to face the world as it is rather than as they wish it would be

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

It’s not so bad. Come join the party 🤗

[@hutchisons]

You’ve seen a relativistic mind before - just look at God‘s behaviour in the Old Testament. 😉

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

50 mins in and I miss Emery so much. He is the atheist who I feel articulated my thinking more than any other. Frank Turek needs to hear this. LOVE it, Sean! ❤️

[@PatsSpats]

What a fascinating conversation. Thanks to both you and Emery for letting it play out publicly for the rest of us to contemplate, discern, and prompt our own belief. And I continue to appreciate you, Sean, and the respectful and humble manner by which you engage others with opposing views. I could do so much better in that area.

[@kikiursalone]

This was such a beneficial listen! Also Emery has such a great lawyer voice! Thank you to both gentlemen for this!

[@danielkim9997]

A Christian and an Atheist was my all time favorite podcast. It really made me think and helped me shed my faith. Please reupload it EMERY!

[@gemguy6812]

The only sinless man suffers an excruciating death on a cross to give man eternal life as a free gift- he forgives those who put him to death and Emery believes God isn’t fair?

[@YingGuoRen]

The story of Christianity is rather like a bank issuing itself credit to pay off a debt it owes itself using a currency it has minted for the occasion and certified in its value wholly on the basis of the very credit it is issuing to itself.

[@patriceriksson7924]

According to your myth Joshua gave up a weekend!

[@Rabbinicphilosophyforthewin]

⁠@@YingGuoRenah yes, Christianity as divine ouroboros. But you left out the part where the bank shares its profits with a whole pile of otherwise impoverished clients.

[@Blessed_by_Yeshua]

Most people live by faith that Jesus came, lived, preached, performed miracles, died, and was resurrected. Not me. Two miracles happened to me that changed my heart of stone to flesh. Once I had a near death experience. I was in the ocean and had been swept out too far for me to fight against the sea to get back to shore. I fell over limp, feeling life slipping from me. My daughter and son in law swam out and retrieved me. I looked to my right and saw an infinite number of tiny golden shimmering translucent hexagons waving gently like a spider web softly in the breeze. It was the most beautiful sight…another dimension. I only had the strength to say “golden honeycomb.” I wanted my daughter to take me there then the next thing I knew I was in an air conditioned car with a bottle of water in my hand. That in itself didn’t transform my life but made me realize there’s another dimension after we die. Then the moment my dad died (the best day of my life) I saw those same infinite golden hexagons shimmering on his forehead as his spirit left his body. I felt, heard, smelled my dad passing through every cell of my body. As he was pulled through in an instant I felt all of the love he had for me. He said four words he’d never uttered to me in life: I’m proud of you. I dropped his lifeless and and began jumping up and down, laughing, crying and saying thank you, thank you! I must have looked like a crazy woman laughing and crying and shouting the moment my beloved dad passed. But I felt the Holy Spirit come into me. That was it. I was so in love with the Lord and I’ve never looked back. I also had a rapture vision. It wasn’t a dream but I’ll leave this for another day.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

sorry, who died? souls can't die, are you saying the romans killed god? how can you kill someone who is immortal? or are you saying jesus was immortal, decided to be mortal, died, came back to life then took up immortality again? and what exactly was the sacrifice, cos death isn't a big deal - it was the torture was the big deal - was it the torture that was atonement? and jesus was dead three days - three day holiday? there was no sacrifice, no one died, you've been conned.

[@swashingbuckles]

Something very telling about people in general is when he admitted that even if Christianity was proved - he wouldn’t want it to be true.

[@trumpbellend6717]

Of course why would any moral person think a god who created people with the foreknowledge that billions would end up in eternal suffering worthy of worship ?? A god who intentionally created evil and suffering in the world and thinks people deserving of punishment for their "beliefs" or the actions of their distant ancestors 🙄🤔

[@markwarne5049]

​@@trumpbellend6717do you really think God who made the whole universe and heaven and hell and sent his only son to die for us is injust?

[@trumpbellend6717]

@@markwarne5049 What does "justice" actually mean to you my friend ? 🤔 You see for me justice is all about "fairness", responsibility, equality, accountability, and consequences all of which can be negated under Christian soteriology by one's acceptance or rejection of extraordinary supernatural claims. *John 5 24* _“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and _*_"BELIEVES"_*_ in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and _*_SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT,_*_ but has passed from death into life"_ Scholars of ethical philosophy such as national humanities medal winning moral and legal philosopher John Rawls described "justice", and especially distributive justice, as _"a form of_ *FAIRNESS"* The dictionaries define it as follows... *M Webster* JUSTICE _noun_ *1* _the maintenance or administration of what just especially by the_ *impartial* _adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments_ *2* _The quality of being just, impartial, or_ *fair* *Cambridge English* JUSTICE _noun_ ( _FAIRNESS_ ) ... _the condition of being morally correct or fair_ _He accused the police of false arrest and demanded justice_ Our societal conception of "justice" in in direct conflict with the *unequal punishment* based on the accused "beliefs" ( something they have no more control over than the colour of their skin at birth ) prescribed by Christian theology. Moral properties such as responsibility are supervenient on actions and attributes of moral agents, and cannot be transferred between them. As such vicarious redemption ( scapegoating ) could never and should never be regarded as either logical or moral. The idea of sin, or morality however you define it, being a tradeable commodity is at odds with how I define morality. Particularly when it involves the suffering of an innocent. I am responsible for my good and bad actions, people can't 'take' my bad deeds any more than they can my good nor should they. PS Your God cannot be both perfectly merciful and perfectly "JUST" as "mercy" is the suspension of "justice" by definition. 😜

[@Reclaimer77]

​@@markwarne5049didn't he drown millions of babies once because his feelings got hurt? Or sign off on slavery and r@pe as punishment? That god?? Yeah ummm...

[@wet-read]

​@@markwarne5049 It is ridiculous and repulsive.

[@megalopolis2015]

I really liked this civil and deep conversation. I understand Emery's reasons for doubt, many of which are emotional, because the idea of Loved ones being permanently in torment forever is the worst kind of torture I can think of, especially as a mom of grown unbelieving kids. Part of me wishes I'd never had them because, short of a series of miracles (which God is obviously capable of performing), they're doomed. Right now they have contentment, such as it is, with living according to their own desires and will. Nothing in my Life hurts as much as envisioning their eternal separation. I pray for their eyes to be opened, as well as Emery's and so many others, before it's too late. 😢 P.S.: My beloved did come to the Saving Knowledge of Christ several years ago, so that is a huge deal, and a very positive model for me.

[@danielleholley817]

Keep praying for them. If your kids are still alive, they're not doomed. Our God IS love and He hears your prayers. His will is that all men will be saved. Pray for them everyday. God can change their heart. Believe. God bless you and your family. I just said a prayer for them. I pray for my unbelieving family often too. I'm not going to give up on them. There is hope🙏🏾📖 ✝️

[@danielleholley817]

Also praise the Lord your beloved was recently born again🙌🏾🎉🙏🏾💕🙏🏻✨️🎆🙏🏼🎉 that's amazing news

[@danielleholley817]

I've heard sooo many testimonies of people of different ages, religions, backgrounds, social economic status etc..coming to the Lord that I believe He can save anyone. Lets walk by faith not by what we see. Keep praying!!! ❤

[@derekallen4568]

This is why religion is so harmful. It's convinced you that hell exists and your kids are going there. There's no evidence for any heaven and hell let alone the Abrahamic god.

[@radscorpion8]

hmm, so are you agreeing that it is immoral that relatives (say above a certain age) should be eternally tortured if they die having made the mistake of not believing in God? If so, doesn't that essentially contradict the idea of an all-powerful, all-loving God? Why do you persist in the belief in this God, rather than adopt what I think is the more reasonable position that the bible is simply wrong and at least partially man-made? What exactly gives you the certainty that you are correct here? Are you also aware that there are numerous contradictions in the bible, admitted by even biblical apologists? As well as prophecies which never came true, for example in Isaiah concerning Egypt? Also reading the utterly senseless cruelty and barbarity of God is kind of hilarious in that prophecy haha. I understand that it is possible that God's mind is so powerful and vast that people think, maybe there are reasons for needing humans to suffer in hell for eternity. But I find this deeply unlikely. Why would a being of infinite power "need" anything? What does he have to gain by causing people to suffer in hell for eternity? Especially a being who is pure love? There is no logical argument here that could work, even conceviably. That's why the whole story of God makes no sense. And why I am confused that you keep steadfastly following it

[@Apollos2.2]

Emery mischaracterized Noah and the flood. God shut Noah in the Ark while He judged the wickedness of men. There was no way Noah could have helped someone into, or kicked them off the Ark once it started raining.

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

What about if you’re an Israelite soldier serving under Saul, sent to destroy the amalekites? Sword in one hand, amalekite infant in the other. What would you do? Only one choice will get you into heaven 🤗

[@Apollos2.2]

@@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus you believe in Heaven?

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

@@Apollos2.2 would you answer my question first? What will you do to the infant amalekites?

[@Apollos2.2]

@@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus let me ask you two more questions before I answer you. 1. On the topic of abortion, are you for it or against it? 2. Are you an atheist?

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

@@Apollos2.2 let me ask you three questions before I answer your two: 1. Who’s the creator of evil? 2. Is abortion wrong if it’s commanded by God? 3. What does atheists believe in? I’m bored with this. Have a nice day. 😘

[@RaptureReadyPam]

We sin because we are selfish and we do what’s in our best interest-not because of pressure from others. I can give an example. I killed my 6 week old baby growing inside me cuz it was inconvenient for my life plan. Praying the Lord shows the truth about sin to Emery and brings him salvation.

[@kchambo2015]

I’m sorry

[@RaptureReadyPam]

@@kchambo2015 Me too. I was burdened by my sin for many years till Christ brought me to true repentance and faith in Him. It is helpful knowing my baby lives with Christ, the very place I long to be as well. Maranatha💜

[@kchambo2015]

@@RaptureReadyPam I have a very similar story. It breaks my heart.

[@yesenia3816]

I find it curious we seek justice for others who have caused harm, but we do not seek justice against ourselves for the harm we have caused to others. I, also, find it curious we judge the fairness of God by our standards and not His.

[@wkylegreen]

Love this video and how you both modeled healthy conversation on important topics where you disagree. Thank you both!

[@laurennoyb539]

Sean, i have to say, whether i stay a Christian or not i very much appreciate your content! You are a light in this dark ugly place. The world is definitely better because you are in it!

[@bryansyme6215]

This was really well done Sean. I think one of the main problems with Emery's arguments is that he needs everything to be simple and comprehensible. And that for God to exist there needs to be strict and obvious rules for dealing with life that cover every situation. And there's just not. The world is extremely complex and we're just not going to get it all the time. That and I don't think his concept of what God is is big enough. He's thinking of God as a very powerful person. And that's just not accurate.God is the Arbiter of everything. By definition he's not wrong, he doesn't make mistakes, And what his will is is right because he's God. I don't think he's doing it intentionally but he's making a straw man argument.

[@whomever21]

I thought Emery did well engaging with the concept of a god who always and by definition is right, and he determined that such a god doesn't deserve the title because he might not be good. For example, if God desired the world to drown, and someone tried to pull a dying person aboard the ark, that would be immoral by God's standards but loving by ours, so why call that God?

[@alz1997]

I haven't gotten all the way through the video yet, but so far he's basically said just that about Christians in terms of morality. That we need morality to be black and white and have an objective cosmic basis.

[@radscorpion8]

He keeps it simple because that way its easiest for Sean and the audience to follow his clear logic. Your definition of God simply doesn't work logically. Let me help: A God cannot be DEFINED to be always correct. If it were, then there would have to be some fundamental rule that in any universe, or pre-universe, or any conceivable state of matter, energy or similar forms, that if a God exists within such a context, it must be that such a God is always correct. In other words you are defining a rule or law into existence that PRECEDES GOD. That makes no sense, since God is supposed to be "the alpha" or the origin of all things, including all laws. If you are instead claiming that God HIMSELF DEFINES HIMSELF to always be correct, then that is wrong for an even simpler reason. You are constructing a circular argument. If God has to define himself to "always be correct", then how is the initial decision "always correct", since it occurred before he defined himself that way? He can never guarantee his correctness if he has to set up the definition from a state where he is not always correct. Therefore it doesn't matter how powerful God is, the problem is according to your definition, making God INTERNALLY or EXTERNALLY "by definition not wrong" doesn't make sense. Same with the claim he doesn't make mistakes. Instead, the only way we can interpret these sorts of statements is in the subjective sense; that is, identically to a human. A human can believe or claim that they don't make mistakes, but in fact it is really just their own subjective opinion. And if God is telling you, as in his example, that while the Earth is flooding and he is drowning all the women and children on it, that if any human tries to grab onto your boat to survive, you should kick him off - that that's the moral thing to do - do you obey God? Do you consider God's wisdom in that moment to be perfect and unassailable? What if God is just the creator of the universe and has a bad set of morals? Why is that impossible for you to consider?

[@bryansyme6215]

I see your point. But I think you're not going deep enough. The context is not that simple. I'm going to try and answer that question with a hypothetical. I think it would be very good for society in the world if Hitler had died as a child. But I don't think it would be right to kill a child whether that would be Hitler or anyone else. Because I don't see all outcomes. And that lack of knowledge means that I don't have the authority to make that decision. I also don't believe that that life belongs to me. So I have no right to take it in either case. But God knows all outcomes. And we belong to him because he's the one that gave us life and created the universe. He is the only one that can make those decisions. Because he is the ultimate arbiter of everything. Because he created and upholds everything. He is not just some very powerful entity that's fallible. Right and wrong are literally defined by him. Not in some sort of arbitrary decision making that we would do. But actual objective right and wrong. So if God says that person should die then that person should objectively die. And of course from our perspective that's hard to understand and to deal with. Because we know that we don't have the right to make those decisions. I can go into more detail and specifics about this but hopefully that helps you understand what I'm getting at.@@whomever21

[@bryansyme6215]

I'm sure that's what he believes. But I think that's projection. He needs morality to be black and white because he doesn't believe there's anyone to defer to. Morality is not black and white. That's why we pray on problems and ask God for guidance. We are not the absolute Arbiters of right and wrong. But through his worldview we have to be. Which is something we just can't be because we don't see all outcomes.@@alz1997

[@WendyWzOpinion]

When people describe God as "can't be good because..." it really breaks my heart. It's like they're describing someone else, not the God I know as revealed to humanity in the Bible and throughout His creation. Somehow in His perfect wisdom, perfect love and perfect justice, God has chosen to grant human beings free will. He orchestrates events throughout history to accomplish His plans knowing what we will choose with the free will He's given us. In some way or another, we are each presented with the option to believe Him or not. To obey Him or not. To follow Him or not. He doesn't force anyone to choose to believe him, but he also doesn't allow those who choose to reject Him to spend eternity with Him. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to understand the logic. This man seems like a very intelligent person. I hope one day he can understand God for who He really is.

[@balletktmc]

I think the atheist in this video actually does understand the logic you described- the position of many atheists is that one can’t simply “choose” to believe. They’d say that you’re either convinced or you aren’t. Also, that if God presented them with something strong enough to convince them (and only God knows what would be) then they would believe.

[@blacksheep2409]

@@balletktmc I think you’re right. Many would say that. Question could be - can you be presented with sufficient reason to make a decision one way or the other and yet for other reasoning chose the opposite?

[@cammiebeierle6111]

We "believe" many things in life: the government is for the people, the food we buy at the grocery store is healthy for me, Republicans are(__), Democrats are (__), your opinion is your opinion, etc. It's a choice. Sometimes, we have to weigh [all] the evidence and make a considered choice. After all the research, personal evidence, and thinking I've done, I have decided to believe that God is who He says He is in His love letters to us.

[@radscorpion8]

@@cammiebeierle6111 sure - and if you believe wrongly about God, you go to hell for eternity - isnt that correct, according to the dominant Christian view? How then could such a God be described as "good" for having such a horrific and severe punishment for mere unbelief? I could never imagine punishing my children with eternal torture if they didn't believe in santa claus or the tooth fairy for example. Why not simply consider that the bible is wrong and partially man-made?

[@balletktmc]

@@blacksheep2409 hmm, interesting question. I feel like it would be pretty unusual for someone to consciously do that. I suppose we all have some level of unconscious bias, though, but it’s difficult to know much that may/may not be influencing us.

[@midimusicforever]

Twist it all you like but in the end, there's no foundation for any objective morality without God.

[@radscorpion8]

I mean, we don't need one lol. We've been doing fine without one for for centuries. We simply agree on what is wrong, which we all share since we are all human, and we go from there

[@midimusicforever]

@@radscorpion8 A lot of doing fine in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. It's almost like humans can agree on horrible things or something.

[@patientfirbolg3299]

​@@midimusicforever Appealing to an unseen authority doesn't suddenly make your morality objective. The only thing you're doing is going "Trust me, God says this is right" except we can't see or consult God to verify objectively. We just see normal looking people claiming to know God's mind on this or that matter. Nothing about that is objective.

[@midimusicforever]

@@patientfirbolg3299 I believe that God has spoken His mind and revealed truths about right and wrong. But even if that wasn't the case, that wouldn't mean morality wasn't objective, it would just mean that we wouldn't know the truth of it. Whereas if God does not exists, the there simply is no moral objectivity.

[@patientfirbolg3299]

@@midimusicforever "I believe that God has spoken His mind and revealed truths about right and wrong" Which is appealing to an unseen authority that can't be consulted or reached to verify their preferences. With that we are only relying on your judgement/interpretation by what you determine to be "revealed truth". "Whereas if God does not exists, the there simply is no moral objectivity." Even if a god/gods was present and plainly understood to exist, then it doesn't defacto mean that its morality is objective. I mean sure, it can objectively punish or reward me provided it's sufficiently powerful and I do something it does or doesn't like, but that's just "might makes right" with extra steps. What if this god is actively malevolent by every conceivable metric devised by humanity? Do you worship a god who demands you to murder/dominate your neighbors just because it has the biggest sticks to whack you and the biggest carrots to entice you?

[@hannahdiaz3277]

It’s so helpful to observe this conversation. No shouting, no pushing, no putting down the other. It makes me hopeful that I can have conversations with my atheist friends and still walk away friends! Thank you Sean and Emery!

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

It is so crazy, being a created being, and thinking your mind is more able to understand what is right vs. the Creator who gave you everything you have to work with at all lol

[@rolandwatts3218]

He does not think "the Creator" exists. Besides, whenever "the Creator" speaks, it's always another human being doing the speaking or the writing. So does "the Creator" ever actually speak or write?

[@NewportSolar]

What if you believe whole heartedly in a creator God, but also believe that every religion is false, the Bible is a book of fairy tales, and every religious leader is a con artist or a child molester… or both. It is then reasonable to use the mind that God have you to try to find and understand what is true and good, rather than listening to con men lining their pockets pretending to be spokespeople. Your mistake is, you think your con man religious leaders are God’s spokespeople.

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

@@rolandwatts3218 I understand he does not think a Creator exist, but during some thought experiments during this conversation he spoke on his thoughts on if God did exist he still would belive God is wrong, that is what I am referencing. So if I have someone dictate my words for me I never actually speak or write? I do not see an issue with speaking through others. If you mean something like, how can we know God ever actually speaks or writes, how can we trust the one bringing the message, then that wold go back to what authority the one with the message brings. If someone had something that proved they were speaking for me then I do not see any issue, like the press secretary of the President or something. I think the miracles that accompanied those who spoke on God's behalf do a pretty good job lending credibility.

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

@@NewportSolar Every religious leader is a con artist or child molester? what? That is a bizarre statement, you have some kind of deep-seated gripe with religion or something. Like every single one, 100%, not a single honest man in that area huh? This is a completely unreasonable statement, how can you possibly expect me to take your comment seriously?

[@rolandwatts3218]

​@@YuGiOhDuelChannel //I understand he does not think a Creator exist, but during some thought experiments during this conversation he spoke on his thoughts on if God did exist he still would belive God is wrong, that is what I am referencing. // O.k. I know what you are referring to. //So if I have someone dictate my words for me I never actually speak or write? I do not see an issue with speaking through others.// Neither do I when it comes to humans because we have zillions of examples of humans speaking and writing and doing it on behalf of other humans. But we don't really know the same about Gods or gods. We have faith that they can do those things, not actual examples of this. //... I think the miracles that accompanied those who spoke on God's behalf do a pretty good job lending credibility.// Well for sure. People see miracles or fulfilled prophecy as some kind of sign. However, to my mind miracles generally vanish the more closely they are examined and prophecies are never unambiguous.

[@daveoelke857]

Sean, I appreciate your openness to another person’s point of view.

[@jenniferp1826]

Such a soft-spoken, gentle man, who still favors his own intellect and “morality” and is deceived. It’s the saddest example of pride I’ve ever seen.

[@rnbham39]

I so agree...His first kind of argument using the Zeus scenario was really weak in my opinion. Such an odd way of "explaining away" belief. Very sad...do not trust in your own understanding...

[@care4thearth]

I got the impression he's bitter feeling his effort of evangelism were rejected.

[@elizabethryan2217]

Gosh, I think that dismissing it as pride is very misguided. He's making some really good points, and airing very valid questions. It's people like him that believers do well to be challenged with to always be ready to give a reason for our faith. Great, challenging conversation.

[@NoTrashInHeaven]

​@elizabethryan2217 Identifying or bottom lining the soul issue as pride is not dismissing Emery's reasons for his disbelief in the biblical God. It's simply & honestly agreeing with God. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's the theme of the Bible: God desires that all turn from their own way back to him. An example: "Come let us reason together, says the Lord..." Isaiah 1:18 - 20

[@bryanhawkins9418]

@@rnbham39I agree, it was quite the reductive argument. I don’t think I’ve heard many more arguments that cheapened the gospel message more than that. To compare the belief in God to the belief in Zeus?? Sure, if you’re in 5th grade. SMH I think it’s a cope…

[@emilylin1733]

Killing babies of course is an extreme, insane, and unrealistic example. However, how about refraining from bringing additional lives to this world by not giving birth? Isn’t this the best way to prevent more lives from suffering in hell?

[@kristag7208]

I don't believe that an atheist or someone that has deconstructed from the faith was ever indwelt by the Holy Spirit because the Spirit himself testifies on God's behalf. This internal dialogue with the Holy Spirit and "your" spirit is known and felt within and doesn't have to be proven. Even if a Christian doesn't understand all things, they continue to increase their knowledge but have peace in their faith.

[@rnbham39]

I always wonder that, too...How to you go from having a relationship with Jesus and then, like...nah, I don't believe in you or in who you say you are...I'm always like, did you just not really have a relationship with Him or what? There is nothing at this point that could ever make me not believe...He's just done too much for me not to. He intervenes in my life every single day...there is never a time I am not talking to Him...

[@Taomeano]

You are so right. The atheist is stumbling in the ways of God, but folks filled with Holy Spirit just walk in the ways of God without having to understand everything about God. Please check Hosea 14:9

[@rolandwatts3218]

What happens with many, is that they realize that the voice that was inside of themselves, was actually a product of their own minds or their own wishful thinking or their own indoctrination over many years from childhood to adulthood. Consider that Christians have been, and continue to finger point each other and accuse each other of being not real Christians because they teach heresy or damnable heresy. Yet each group in the finger pointing exercise can claim to have a deep personal relationship with God, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So if one group can have a fake Holy Spirit, then why not both groups? If a Mormon were to come to you and tell you that they have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit - would you believe them?

[@whiskeredtuna]

@kristag7208, well, there are scriptures in the New Testament in both Hebrews and Peter that describe apostasy. The picture they paint is of someone who was once a believer but decided to walk away. I mean….. just saying that someone was never a genuine believer to begin with doesn’t really describe all the cases of deconstruction we see and hear.

[@kristag7208]

Your absolutely correct and I should have worded that differently in hindsight but I'm not going back now to edit what's already being commented on, lol. What I believe Hebrews and Peter describe is what we would call in our modern language an "unchurched" believer. Someone that comes from a Christian (believer) background but no longer belongs or is connected to a church. Such was I for a little over 20 years.@@whiskeredtuna

[@cbrooks97]

I feel like Emery, like a lot of skeptics, is determined to misunderstand objective morality. And that's one reason I try not to put it those terms. I prefer "external morality." It doesn't matter where the rules come from. The rules are being imposed on us from above by someone with the authority to judge and the power to hold us responsible if we fail to obey. Is murder "objectively" wrong? Who cares? If you do it, this nice man in the blue uniform is going to put you in jail if you do it. So the only question is whether there is a higher morality, one external to the human race, which all of the usual arguments for objective morality will prove is the case.

[@northeastchristianapologet1133]

Emery did a great job expressing himself and explaining his reasoning in this video.

[@ray162738]

Excellent, as always! Such respect from both participants. Thanks, Sean!

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

It sounds like he couldn’t work out his theological framework and afterwards, he no longer believed in the resurrection. Then did he ever truly considered the evidence for the resurrection? I wonder what crumbled down for him first. Great conversation. Thank you all for your time.

[@megalopolis2015]

Maybe if his questions were answered rather than dismissed out of hand when he was younger, he would have grown steadfast in his faith, instead of waiting to obtain freedom enough to close the door on belief. Anyone who truly believes in God should know that He stands up to scrutiny.

[@MootRed]

Emery starting position is what is determining his decision. He doesn't WANT the Christian God to be true because he is choosing to keep his position as moral superior than that of an all powerful deity. It's pride.

[@MyContext]

We don't have evidence for a resurrection. We have claims of a resurrection.

[@megalopolis2015]

@@MyContext Awesome. Find Jesus' bones and this whole pesky Christianity thing goes away. Trained Roman guards and many thousands of other people over the years have tried, but since you're far more educated, you shouldn't have a problem. While you're at it, come up with a different plausible explanation as to why many dozens of people thought they saw Christ raised, and didn't go back on their beliefs, even to the point of torture and death.

[@MyContext]

@@megalopolis2015 Why? The story as presented is reasonably fiction. The Romans would leave a body hanging as a warning to others.

[@mottgirl13]

Thanks for that. I really appreciated the dialogue and how honest both men were. It’s quite rare to see a civil thoughtful conversation..

[@comeasyouare4545]

I think it strange when theist hold up their holy text as a high moral standard. I think another thing theist have a problem with is fear. They fear the unknown and will except any explanation. No matter how outlandish it is. On the other hand, non-believers tend to face the fear of the unknown with I honestly don't know.

[@patientfirbolg3299]

It's a very human thing. Partly its fear management keeping you from having an existential crisis on a regular basis. Also, religion sort of develops like a form of memetic mutualism, we're very social creatures who depend on our tribe, and religion gives us a language to communicate and connect with different members of our tribe without really knowing them. Obviously, this backfires when your religion is built on claims that don't really track with reality, or if members of said tribe are of a completely different faith.

[@comeasyouare4545]

@@patientfirbolg3299 I agree with you. The concept of being a god or speaking for a god gave those that claimed it moral authority over others. What better way to form a government, and governing body. Theocracy. Also, those that believe in an afterlife. Make better solders. Believing god is on their side.

[@Strikerage]

I have always asserted that those who "lose their faith", have never actually "had" the faith or salvation to begin with. The problem with arguing this point is that it can't be answered. No one can see someone's soul. It is between Jesus and that individual. But to believe that one can lose their faith, from a Christian perspective, means that Jesus was lying. A Christian, therefore cannot believe that a Christian can "lose" their faith. Only have a lukewarm faith. But the flame still exists.

[@dr.z806]

One of my favorite Lewis quotes: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it."

[@rolandwatts3218]

Lewis was wrong. Most people, if they believed that a hell of eternal punishment existed, would likely not choose to go there. Extreme masochists would maybe. But unless Lewis thought that most people were extreme masochists, then he had no good reason for such a claim. Suppose it turns out that the Muslims are correct and that Lewis is now burning in the Muslim hell. Is that because Lewis chose to go there?

[@Qwerty-lp1fz]

Apparently it is will of most humans to suffer for eternity. Perfectly reasonable conclusion

[@yinyindaddy]

Hell, as I behave, is a objectively real place of doom. But subjectively some might feel it differently. Thus, C.S Lewis said hell is locked from the inside. i.e. they d' rather to be in there then heaven. To this end, Paul sounds similarly in 2 Cor 2:15-16：Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing. To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume.

[@MarkLewis-dz8pp]

Sign me up for hell, at least you pompous people won't be there

[@dlockness1]

I'm thankful to both of you for being willing to have this discussion, hashing out, or trying to hash out your differences. It's heartbreaking to hear of anybody leaving the faith (especially someone w/a church background so similar to my own). I'm sure Emery has done quite a bit of investigating many *problematic* theological and intellectual topics on his own. But, whatever unaddressed and potentially deconstructing experiences or dissonances or emotional difficulties a person may have with his/her Christian faith, considering what all is at stake, don't you think a person's search for answers or resolution ought to extend beyond one's local church pastor? (So many stop there, led to believe that 'if my pastor doesn't know, and in fact "poo-poos" my doubts, therefore there must not be any answers') Christianity has such a long, rich and robust intellectual history, and we live way out on the bud of a twig of a branch of a humongous oak or redwood tree! Drop everything and read the "giants" and their Christian classics, go back to school, study with the Dominicans,..(SOMETHING)! (Biola/Talbot is a great place to start!) (You may also need good Christian counseling, or international travel, etc.)

[@Strikerage]

I have always asserted that those who "lose their faith", have never actually "had" the faith or salvation to begin with. The problem with arguing this point is that it can't be answered. No one can see someone's soul. It is between Jesus and that individual. But to believe that one can lose their faith, from a Christian perspective, means that Jesus was lying. A Christian, therefore cannot believe that a Christian can "lose" their faith. Only have a lukewarm faith. But the flame still exists.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

why should you care about someone losing faith, that's like me hoping satan gets you, it's not only horrid to wish things on people who don't want them it's kinda immoral.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

biola is a certificate factory, churning out bogus degrees to make religious folk look legit. their degrees are like toilet paper, only rougher.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

and the ink comes off.

[@askbrettmanning]

I noticed that those who let doubt creep in, rarely doubt their own doubts. Also, the exchange a worldview that can make sense of their lives for one of nothingness. Trying to find meaning in the world formed out of chaos for no reason or purpose. And finally, when, trying to define sin, we get into a big psychological conundrum.

[@rolandwatts3218]

Why not doubt their own doubts about doubting? I mean, whenever you doubt something do you doubt your own doubts? Then do you doubt those doubts? And so on and so on?

[@DVN5381]

Emery seems more concerned by other people’s fates than Sean. Christians seem to downplay how horrific the idea of eternal Hell really is. It just doesn’t seem compatible for a loving father to choose creation knowing his children would enter into eternal torment, or a loving father to allow his children to ‘freely’ enter into an eternal hell.

[@lizstephan1320]

Sean, this was interesting, and I appreciated your kindly patience with a man whose mind seems closed, locked and the key has been thrown away. Emery freely admits he would not want to believe in God even if it was proven true. I truly feel at some point in Emery's life, he felt profoundly disappointed with God in some very sad and personal way. I was once the same way, but thankfully, God mercifully intervened to open my eyes and heart to help me see He is love . Let's pray for Emery. The devil came to kill, steal and destroy, but Jesus came to give us abundant life. I'd love to see Emery have abundant life instead of the desire to end it himself one day.

[@trumpbellend6717]

"Belief" is not a "choice" dear

[@mottgirl13]

@@trumpbellend6717 what do you mean ? I’m genuinely intrigued…

[@trumpbellend6717]

@@mottgirl13 BELIEF is NOT *"CHOICE"* or a mere act of volition. Sure someone can pretend to believe anything but the things one actually believe are not something you choose they are an involuntary response to one's level of information and understanding of their environment. You are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that convinces. I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Anymore than you could right now "choose" to be convinced that God is not real or that the laws of gravity don't apply to you if you step off that cliff. Tell me could you genuinely "choose" to believe the internet does not exist and we are not having this discourse now ?? I'm talking about being CONVINCED of it dear not just pretending!! Give me an honest answer, could you right now "Choose" to believe in Thor or Zeus ??? 🤔 No of course not, for exactly the same reason I can't choose to believe in Yahweh. Now if I recieved some irrefutable knowledge or evidence then I would have no "choice" but to believe, I would have to deny my own reasoning and senses. That what changes beliefs, not "choice" If you came home and found your spouse in bed with the neighbour, could you just "CHOOSE" to believe in his fidelity and go back downstairs to make him a nice cup of tea ?? 🤣😅🤣

[@mottgirl13]

@@trumpbellend6717 thank you for sharing so much. My English and comprehension is not so good, so I need to reread this again to understand. Sorry this might take some time.

[@shawn4110]

No, he actually said that he would not want the Christian God specifically to be true, because the Christian God punishes people for a lack of knowledge outside of their own control which he thinks would be an Evil God. Imagine the scenario from your perspective. Suppose someone told you that actually Satan will win the final war in Heaven and rule all of mankind for eternity. Would you want to believe that? I'm not asking if that is something you believe can happen, I am asking if you would WANT to believe that it can happen or would you reject that notion based solely on how utterly immoral you would think this trajectory of the cosmic story would be.

[@BeMa-e2z]

Pray for Emery Wong everyone 🙏🏻 There is something going on inside of his heart. There's is nothing impossible for GOD!!

[@jdnlaw1974]

Great discussion. This is why, as a former Christian, now an agnostic, I’m a subscriber and fan of Sean and this channel.

[@slytheguy6761]

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Josh 24:15

[@ItsSageof]

Taking the time to understand a man or woman's story is critical in all conversations about religion.

[@kristag7208]

Exactly. Meaningful conversations builds rapport before most would even consider opening up about religion.

[@MrSturdystratus]

Agreed but following Christ isn’t a religion it’s a relationship. It’s not about rituals it’s about know knowing obeying walking with Christ

[@ItsSageof]

@@MrSturdystratusI used to say that when I was a Christian. what do you mean?

[@slytheguy6761]

@@ItsSageofa true christian could never be unborn like every human being could never be unborn..sorry!

[@MrSturdystratus]

@@ItsSageof a relationship… do u have a mom or a dad who u talk with, spend time with and talk about things with? Same exact thing with Jesus. I spend time with him daily, talking with him, reading the Bible, learning his likes dislikes and asking for advice, inviting him to come along with me in everything I do

[@joshuaharvey1054]

The only rational form of Christianity is one in which God both Can and Will Save All. Change my mind

[@simbot15]

Thanks Sean for this interview/conversation. It seemed like throughout the conversation Emery couldn't get past the "God" and religion he grew up with, rather than try and maybe understand things differently. God to him is a cosmic bully, who says "Believe in me or I'm going to send you to hell", rather than our creator who loves us and knows what's best for us. I wish you had time to press him further on the issue of divine justice as it pertains to the problem of evil/hell and judgement. Looking forward to your next conversation with him.

[@rolandwatts3218]

//Emery couldn't get past the "God" and religion he grew up with, rather than try and maybe understand things differently.// I don't think you actually know that. And he did end up understanding things differently.

[@vittoriacolona]

@@rolandwatts3218 It's demonstrated in what he says.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

god IS a cosmic bully, what else can he be? "love me or suffer the consequences" that's hannibal lector, not a lover. your god is immoral, barbaric and an incompetent idiot who can't even protect an apple ffs. and you worship this floating turd. according to you there is no evil, whatever god does is fine and dandy, kill everyone on the planet? fine kill them god. you're sick people mate really you are. can you argue with god? can you tell him he's wrong? can you even show doubt that he's done something wrong? cos if the answer is "i'll be burned alive for eternity if i do" then you really ought to realise god is not good at all, he's just another tin pot dictator - invented by men who just want you to shut up and do as you're told. thank goodness he's imaginary.

[@VioletWonders]

This as AWESOME!!! Love the really challenging back and forth and Emery seems more capable than most to test Sean's concepts and knowledge. BRING BACK EMERY!!! :) :)

[@iferris690]

Why, then, after so many conversations with Christian apologists, views does he still hold to an atheist worldview? It presents to me that he doesn't want to be true... he hasn't known Christ, and that, in my opinion, is the bottom line for his secular apathy. He needs to beware the snare of academia.

[@radscorpion8]

You are starting with the presumption that anyone who discusses anything with Christian apologists should be convinced to become Christian. That is a major and unfounded assumption. What if the Christians are wrong? How can you just assume your side is right? That is the whole point of the debate

[@iferris690]

@radscorpion8 not being presumptuous at all. This man proclaims to have been a Christian and then decided it was all a fallacy. If he truly believes that when why is he bothering to have discussions of this nature when he has firmly asserted that he does not hold to a Christian world view or to an omnipresent omniscient omnipotent deity which is thee God of the Bible.

[@radscorpion8]

@@iferris690 He has the debates because he thinks belief in God is ultimately damaging and harmful to a person and that more people should be atheist to free themselves. Its just like any other worldview. If you are democrat you debate with republicans to get them to join your side and vice versa. Also your original statement was "Why, then, after so many conversations with Christian apologists, views does he still hold to an atheist worldview?". You are suggesting here that after many conversations with Christians, he should be a Christian. That is what I was objecting to, the assumption that talking with a Christian should make you Christian. I'm not sure if you meant it this way but that is how it reads

[@iferris690]

@radscorpion8 not necessarily. I have experienced, on many occasions, atheists who just want to debate for the sake of it. They have no intention of arriving anywhere except on their ignorance. And presenting their decision has brought them clarity and peace. If anyone has spiritual eyes to see and ears to discern, he or she can see this man has neither. What I really meant was that Sean has just wasted his time! Sounds rather dismissive and gracelessI know, but I shall continue. Not everyone will go to heaven, and it will be of their open bidding.

[@rebeccabrockway8258]

Sean: You commonly host fellow believers on your podcast. I bypass these because I've found them predictable. Not so your conversation with Emery Wang. Wang's words are thoughtful and thought-provoking. It was one of your best interviews ever! Please continue to host atheists who shed light on contrasting ideas. Doing so encourages your listeners to think. Thank you!

[@TrentonMabry]

I’m wondering where emery gets his understanding of valuing human life? Considering that is a very Christian concept.

[@jacobandgeckos]

There are a couple different ways to answer this. Consider: People are given the choice of what to value, and we can choose to value different things (for different reasons) than God. People have the free will to value the wrong things, and to value the right things for the wrong reasons. So, it's not really all that surprising that a non-Christian would still value human life, even if you think his reasoning goes against God's truth. One possible reasons is empathy: his own experience as a human makes him want to prolong the life and prevent the suffering of other fellow humans. The Golden Rule you might call it, treat others as you would like to be treated. Another way of reasoning, based on secular science, would be Group Selection in evolution. This is the idea that caring for each other is what helped humans as a species survive and thrive, so it has sort of become built in to our culture, DNA, and the way humans think.

[@TrentonMabry]

@@jacobandgeckos you are still speaking as a Christian though. To alleviate suffering for other humans is a Christian concept. Evolution can’t ground a moral ought or moral duties. That question is still up in the air. Evolution teaches that the strong prey on the weak. It’s survival of the fittest. So again, I don’t understand where empathy and alleviating suffering comes from in that worldview either. The idea of the equality of all human beings and that their “rights” are “self evident” is a very Christian concept. You don’t see other worldviews purporting that in history. These rights aren’t self evident in the sense that they can be proven. It’s connected to the story of the Bible.

[@rolandwatts3218]

@@TrentonMabry // Evolution teaches that the strong prey on the weak. It’s survival of the fittest.// Not necessarily. We humans are very weak when it comes to many of the animals that prey (or used to prey) on us. We survived not by being stronger than them, but rather by learning to band together and to cooperate. And I think Emery disagreed with Sean on his claim that the value of human life is a Christian concept. For example, I reckon the Jews (who are not Christian) had the concept. I suspect Buddhists had it ... perhaps. Christians certainly made this a big part of their faith, and hence it's a big part of Western culture today. Even then, there were plenty of times during which Christians found it very easy to behave in the opposite manner (e.g. the wars between warlords and kingdoms following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the Wars of Religion in Europe, and so on.)

[@TrentonMabry]

@@rolandwatts3218 Christians made it a big part of their faith because it is part of their faith. Man created in the image of God is the basis for inviolable human rights. The inherent dignity of the human rests solely upon this narrative. Show me the sources from Buddhism where it exists. That’s exactly what evolution teaches. Read Darwin’s theory of natural selection. Read atheists like Russell, Sartre, Nietzsche. Nietzsche hated the Christian concept of caring for the poor and the oppressed because it was destroying the idea of natural selection and how evolution would naturally work its way out by eliminating the weaker.

[@jacobandgeckos]

@@TrentonMabry I think Emery would agree with you that "human rights aren't self-evident in the sense that they can be proven." He seems to more be taking his understanding of human value as a personal ideal rather than something that can be proven to others. Statistically speaking, many non-Christians do agree with the ideal of human rights, so we might not understand their reasoning, but human rights are apparently self-evident to many. If empathy for others is a good gift that can only come from God, perhaps God has, as a gift of common grace, given the capacity for empathy even to those who don't believe. After all, God first loved us. It's true that biological evolution doesn't produce oughts, but Culture too can evolve, and the peer pressure of culture, or the mass agreement of people in society, could be seen as an ought, if you are looking for an ought. Christianity has certainly had an influence on the evolution of Western culture. But regardless of its origin, at this point, empathy seems quite widespread in culture, so much that non-Christians idealize it too. Alleviating suffering may have started as a Christian concept, but others saw that it was good, and adopted the ideal for themselves. I think sometimes people see God's goodness even if they don't quite see God.

[@methodicl2673]

The problem is the definition of hell. It is not a place of eternal punishING. It is eternal punishMENT. Meaning there is no coming back from it ever. It is final. Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire to be burned up and cease existing. Not to keep burning forever.

[@radscorpion8]

This was a wonderful discussion, finally some really meaningful dialogue, not just between you and Emery but in the chat where I hit some SLAM DUNKS on some theists :D. Just kidding it was great

[@Nyagrafalls10]

What a great convo! Thank you both 😊

[@williambillycraig1057]

Great interview.

[@CrossingtheChasm]

I wish I could have a conversation with Mr. Wang. I was in his shoes thirty years ago, asking the same tough questions and discarding my faith. God restored my faith and brought me on a twenty year journey finding answers. Last month, at 61, I graduated from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary with a PhD in ethics and theology. I wrote my dissertation on the metaphysics of divine authority. There are so many things to explore here and there are answers!

[@evanbasnaw]

We should pray for this man who doesn't know he's building his house on sand and morals that don't stand up to introspection beyond utility. I've been there and had to work through it to find out there's no base to any moral structure without a good God. "I can't believe in a God that would do that. That's just wrong." - There's so many assumptions about what it means to be wrong, or cruel, or just, or even loving wrapped up in that statement.

[@rolandwatts3218]

//There's so many assumptions about what it means to be wrong, or cruel, or just, or even loving wrapped up in that statement.// So are you saying that you don't rely on "so many assumptions" yourself?

[@WaterCat5]

And yet your only justification is that god commands it--the ultimate assumption. You don't know god. You don't know if he has your best interests at heart. You simply believe he does. How can you prove that the best things in your life aren't just god eventually leading you to the worst downfall imaginable?

[@jeffbenelli6999]

I’m a 58-year-old cradle Catholic, who lost my faith about four years ago one area the Christian church needs to do better is the word gymnastics by design for example, and they say all good they do not mean the colloquial definition of good they mean divine command theory, which is not at all that colloquial definitiontestament is filled with horrible actions either by God or by God’s chosen leaders, so to attempt to call him all good by the definition, it’s nothing more than dishonest

[@eazythetruth]

Zeus is fictional and Jesus was the most cited historical figure ever. For comparison the most noted dictator in his time had 10 official first hand citings that are officially recognized Jesus had over 40 His first argument makes absolutely no sense at all he basically described himself rejecting it out of sheer pride for no reason you can't not know any better if youre sane and hear the gospel. And if you didnt explain the simple facts and truth and evidence then yea but you planted a seed its up to them too to seek further

[@russellmiles2861]

I am interested in your view ... which evidence do you base the historically nature of Jesus of Nazareth

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

Listening in- 20 minutes- in sooo happy to hear Emery’s voice and cadence. His show along with Unbelievable? Podcast (and later Hinge podcast) was so instrumental. I love atheists and Christians in conversation so much more than apologist rambling. Down with Romans 1:18ff. It’s simply not true.

[@almondhastings]

Emery describes my journey, questions, and conclusions exactly. I do not like the Christrian god as I find him cruel. When I die there may be something else or I will cease and not know. This belief really should be a reason to make this one moral and do it well as our only chance.

[@askbrettmanning]

I hope this dear brother reads these comments and see that we have a love for him still. He is invited to the table to feast on the goodness fellowship with brothers and sisters, who will love him from now through eternity I hope you read C's comments answering his objections. Objection of the flood was certainly not valid. Because he acted as if the people wanted to be saved. They marked Noah and were known as a very violent evil people. They had plenty chances to get on the ark, plenty of chances to repent all the years he was building

[@WaterCat5]

There is nothing in the bible that suggests the people knew of the flood beforehand or that they were invited into the ark. If they knew of the flood, they would have wanted to be saved in all likelihood. It doesnt matter cause the flood never happened anyway, but let's get the details straight.

[@dannycampisi1919]

Incredible conversation. Would love to have Emery back with a conversation just regarding Hell. It seems very evident to me that this is Emery’s top objection.

[@jeffmiller2396]

This is the third time in as many months that I have come across atheists who were formerly Southern Baptist. For those Southern Baptists out there, please be aware of this. How can the S. B. denomination help be proactive regarding this in the future?

[@Garden366]

SB’s have nothing to say to the arguments against their faith put forth as stated by the guest because their beliefs on HOW you enter the Kingdom of God can’t be fully aligned with Scripture. If you believe that you saved yourself, you hold yourself saved and it has and will always depend on you, you’re going to have no good explanation for why does God not save everyone. Wait for it….Gotcha. Bc per our SB persons, THEY don’t want to be. Entirely contrary to Biblical explanation. It’s like arguing with a schizophrenic in the depth of one of their hallucinogenic episodes. It’s entirely circular reasoning. God gives us the reasons in his Word and it is certainly up to us to believe them however, salvation IS of The Lord. Period. End of sentence. That’s a full sentence; it has definite consequences, ramifications and implications on how you view all of God’s Word. Just like any straight line - if you deviate even a fraction of a millimeter off the starting point when you get out some distance away from that point, you are going to be far away from your target. I remember sitting in an elderly adults class because I wanted to go around and listen to what all the Sunday school teachers were saying in the Southern Baptist church that I once attended and during this SS class, this old man looked at the teacher and asked, “But how do I know I’m saved? How do I know I’m going to heaven. I feel there’s something wrong.” and the teacher had absolutely no answer. He just sat there. No answer came from him, and no answer came from any of the elderly men and women sitting in that Sunday school class. And the teacher was a man who would stand on occasion in the pulpit, taking over pulpit duties when the senior and associate pastors were gone. I have never forgotten that as long as I have lived. The old man didn’t want to hear from me or entertain anything I said because I was the ‘crazy lady’ who didn’t align with SB dogma. Unfortunately, my great fear is that he unfortunately heard from the Lord as he died some years ago. I left and joined a reformed congregation and am fed the Word of God as HE says, each Sunday. Praise God, for He leads His sheep into green pastures. “in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:9

[@Apollos2.2]

​@Garden366 Salvation is of the Lord and "God is not willing that any should perish" but God's plan is that He allows mankind to make that choice to humble themselves, repent and believe or harden their heart and walk away from the Gospel. It's not God's plan that He chose who is saved and who is not. I didn't save myself, Jesus saved me when I put my faith in him 🙏

[@Apollos2.2]

Jeff, I think it's a lack of discipleship in churches in general. So many people don't know what they believe or why they believe it 😕

[@MarkNOTW]

Depends if the SB church adheres to a Calvinistic view. I’ve chatted with atheists who were formally Calvinists. When some tragedy occurred in their life, they walked away because they have a deterministic view of God. Basically, if God is good then he could have prevented this but he didn’t therefore God isn’t good and thus doesn’t exist.

[@Apollos2.2]

@@MarkNOTW Agree 100%

[@seasonsoflife1324]

He is missing the forest for the trees. Praying he turns back to God and have a heart felt encounter with Him. I am Asian American didn’t grow up Christian wasn’t even sure what Christians were. But the spiritual background of my culture caught up to me and I found Christ. Now I am struggling to explain Christ to my kids because their western view has made Christ a fairytale character and the church preach water down gospel and live the same as the world.

[@kelly91313]

His view lacks the understanding that God is actually so patient with us and the people who died in the flood were so inherently evil that they didn’t want anything to do with God and His goodness. It wasn’t just a simple unbelief.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

have you ever asked yourself what crimes the people in the flood had committed, cos all the bible says is that they were sinners, and somehow god failed (as he always does) cos he didn't get rid of sin, he just killed people who were probably quite happy sinning, for no end result. your god is the dumbest of the dumb - i really don't see how you can't see what an idiot it is you worship. can;t even protect apples from women dumber than snakes.

[@spiritedtruth3490]

As to about the babies, he also doesn’t believe in freewill but in fatalism. And, as to think there shouldn’t be hell, he also shows he doesn’t understand what justice is! Seems like anything goes for him. Sad. His stance right now, will send his children to hell. But, then, his children may be wiser than him and accept Christ as Lord n Saviour.

[@katherinehurt5238]

You can see the sadness in Emery's eyes, like he's empty!!! Praying for you Emery!!!!

[@kristencobb230]

I thought the same thing. And in contrast Sean’s countenance radiates genuine care and goodness.

[@JoBo301]

It must be a draining and mentally exhausting experience to defend something like atheism all the time - I genuinely feel sorry for Emery.

[@jessiemoreno5493]

​@@JoBo301I agree. It has to take a lot of energy to accept things like the universe created itself out of nothing. Emery is hung up on moral issues, fairness, goodness and so forth.

[@MarkLewis-dz8pp]

No he was sad he was a chump until he figured out God is a hoax; wasted 22 years

[@wingman78207]

Emery no longer sees the need to plaster a big fake smile on his face pretending that dogma and superstition somehow improve his life. Emery comes across as stoic, cool, focused and confident.

[@NewLifeFromTheWayofTruth]

We are so arrogant as born human beings that we will talk and think ourselves into hell... 😢

[@toserious2587]

Sound like he had, nothing but head knowledge without knowing Christ or having a relationship with him. Otherwise the doubt would have been minimal.

[@rolandwatts3218]

Many Christians actually do doubt and even go through periods of extreme doubt.

[@davidpdiaz]

Sean, Emery was positing the Euthyphro Problem. I think you had the perfect opportunity to definitively answer that God's commands aren't true because God says so, but because God IS so. His point was that we can't accept that our actions should be determined by what God tells us to do. He was saying that God’s commands determine the nature of goodness, and God’s prohibitions determine what is bad. If an action is good merely because God wills (or favors) it, then one must admit that any morally good action could have just as easily been morally bad and vice versa. If all God’s commands are good, then he can command that murder is good. In such a case, his commands are arbitrary, and moral obligations cannot be objective. Indeed, we would obey God’s commands solely “because he said so.”

[@radscorpion8]

Saying God "IS" so is sort of begging the question here. You're saying God's nature is to be "good". Now who or what defines "good" here? We know its not outside God, God is the source of all things. So is it God itself that defines goodness? So God defines goodness, and its God's nature to be good. How is that meaningfully any different from saying God's commands are good because God says so? You are kind of just repeating the exact same problem.

[@davidpdiaz]

@@radscorpion8 The difference is this: If an action is only good because God wills it, then one must admit that any morally wrong action could have just as easily been ethically correct, and vice versa. God’s commands are obeyed solely “because he said so.” In such a case, the commands are arbitrary, and moral obligations cannot be objective. A Christian theist would reject such a response. On the other hand, if God wills and commands specific moral actions because He is good, then his will is neither dependent on a prior moral standard nor is it arbitrary. Goodness is grounded in the very nature of God. In other words, God’s nature is the standard of goodness. His commandments to us are expressions of his nature, and his will is morally binding.

[@rf402]

Judging God's attributes from human point of views😮

[@Philip__325]

Humans are created in Gods image. Where do humans get their attributes and morality from? And so then if they have an issue with something biblically why are we even able to have that issue or question? Wouldn’t we be created to understand and accept all of his choices or attributes

[@rolandwatts3218]

It always is. All we ever hear is fallible humans telling other fallible humans what God thinks, wants and does. And calling it good or bad.

[@horridhenry9920]

What other point of view is there?

[@WaterCat5]

Then how can you know anything about god lmao. How do you know god is good? It's all from a human point of view because that's the only one we have.

[@Ozzyman200]

Morality has always been a huge problem for religion. A religious person can be moral, but they have no way to explain, through faith, why any act is right or wrong. See how badly apologists fail on this. Or can any apologist manage it?

[@nichetcher1]

Amazing intro, man! Your craft is improving year after year!

[@PiRobot314]

The way I see morality is that you have to define it somewhere. Define it as human flourishing or define it as the command of God, either way it is an arbitrary definition. I am not objecting to arbitrariness because that is the case for ALL definitions.

[@erichodge567]

Finally... someone that understands...kinda. The quality of being absolutely arbitrary is only available at the very bedrock foundation of a logical system. If your system is Euclidean geometry, for example, you can define a "goofy" line as one that intersects a circle of finite radius in exactly 3 distinct points, but there will be exactly zero such lines in the plane. This would be a useless definition. We have to be very careful about definitions.

[@midimusicforever]

You assume that morality depends on us choosing a definition. What is the basis for that assumption?

[@PiRobot314]

@@erichodge567 You're right, we can't just say anything means anything. I agree that we should try not to be arbitrary and to use words in a way that communicates as accurately as possible, even if we can't eliminate arbitrariness entirely. Regarding this particular definition of "moral good," I am convinced that even within the Bible, we have the verse that says to "Taste and See that the Lord is good" (Psalm 34:8). So if God is good by definition, then that verse didn't mean much. In order to make the statement "God is good" mean anything of value, we have to have a separate definition of good.

[@PiRobot314]

@@midimusicforever The reasoning behind that assumption has a lot to do with the "is-ought problem" I think the only way ANYONE can solve the "is-ought" problem is to give a brute definition for morality or "ought" For example, if someone asks, "What is the foundation of morality?" And I respond with "to protect human flourishing." How did I get from that "is" of the facts that help human flourishing to the "ought" of helping humans? By definition. Or similarly, how does a divine command theorist get from the fact that God commands things to the "ought" of obeying God? Again, by definition.

[@midimusicforever]

@@PiRobot314 Here you go again, assuming that the definition is something we have to make. Why would it be impossible for the ought to be pre-existent?

[@sperodeo1]

Wow! Thank you both for your thought-out arguments, for how gracious & honest you both were with each other, & for giving me things to think on. I love watching great conversation about difficult topics. I'm a teacher in a Christian school, so I use this show to keep me sharp. Kids are much more brilliant & thoughtful than people think; I have to stay on my toes!

[@Chuletew]

Hell was never created for us, it was for Satan and his Minions who separated themselves from God. Sadly every day humans do the same things so if we don’t want to be with God he is grieved but he gives us that free will to pick our eternity. God doesn’t send us to hell we send ourselves there.

[@rolandwatts3218]

So should the Muslims be correct in that Allah is the one true God, and you end up in hell, would it be because you chose to go there? (Non Christians would have to be masochists to choose to go to the Christian hell of eternal conscious torment. But I don't think most non Christians are masochists. They simply don't accept Christian claims about God. Christians don't even necessarily accept each other's claims about God.)

[@Suavemente_Enjoyer]

I appreciate Emery‘s openness to conversation. It’s really refreshing to see good discussions between Christians and atheists. Love your channel Sean! God bless!

[@jrhemmerich]

As a lawyer who has a very similar desire for justice and proportional fairness, I think Emery would be helped by considering evangelical conditional immortality (Edward Fudge, the fire that consumes). And it may be that God is just to impose a punishment based upon his own infinite status, but this is not a standard explicitly taught in scripture. But if it’s an equally biblical point of view, that God’s punishments depend on what one knows and is proportional to the sin committed and ends in destruction (complete separation from God), then it seems this would address his fundament objection.

[@david808323]

for me, this discussion between a strong Christian and a former Southern Baptist, now atheist, tells me one thing. Our churches are not teaching sound doctrine! The poison of atheism, under the guise of reason, is hurting the church. Baptists are notorious for failing to teach sound doctrine. At best, they have "discipleship programs" where you learn how to pray, read the Bible through in a year, and how God has a wonderful plan for your life. That is not doctrine. Then they go out, meet an atheist, and become one themselves. Christian churches should be "good ground" for Christians to grow. Not the wayside, the stony places, or the thorns. Look at churches like Andy Stanley's. Jesus will surely take him to task and take him to the threshing floor. If he makes it into heaven, it will be by the skin of his teeth. Not that I believe in salvation by works, but where is the fruit. I see poisonous fruit. Kudos to Sean for dealing lovingly and gently with his friend, Emery.

[@david808323]

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) Solus Christus (Christ alone) Sola Fide (faith alone) Sola Gratia (grace alone) Soli Deo (glory to God alone)

[@danielap4037]

The lawyer said that the moral thing to have done was to "not create hell," but I don't believe he believes that. He's a lawyer and, therefore, helps the judge to put humans behind bars for breaking human laws so why isn't he fighting to make the world get rid of prisons so that all humans can walk free no matter if they "care" to admit that laws have good purpose? He must know that many criminals break laws because many were born wired with evil in their core and others because they've learned bad habits that they must work to correct. If God is being "unfair " by creating hell, why is he choosing to be "unfair " too by practicing law?? That brings to mind this parable(Matthew 13: 29-30). God gives us many chances. As long as we have life, we have the opportunity to change and turn back to God, so keep praying Christians and God will finish the work 🤍🐑.

[@tonyisnotdead]

Lawyers dont make the sentences or make the laws which once broken result in the punishment. People arent also punished via completely unjustified means, and hell is a completely unjustified means

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

There is no such thing as 'objective' morality. Morality is the cognitive process of differentiating between human intentions, decisions, and actions that are morally appropriate (ought to occur in a certain dilemma) from those inappropriate (ought not to occur in a certain dilemma). Like all cognitive assessments, moral assessments always and necessarily involve the subject's own considerations. Therefore, morality is _always and necessarily_ SUBJECTIVE. Each and every individual is the sole arbiter of his or her own morality. I, and I alone, determine which human behaviors are moral, amoral, or immoral, just as everyone else does.

[@arcticpangolin3090]

Yeah, at the end of the day it comes down to a value judgement. The subjectivity doesn’t change by appealing to a god

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

@@arcticpangolin3090 Exactly. ✌️

[@corinneelizabeth3693]

Excited for the follow up discussion for sure! :)

[@achristian11]

@40:50 he says that as a parent you would do everything you can to prevent your children from burning. But what if all you have to do is to believe in Jesus Christ in order to save yourself and your children from burning? Is that something that he would not be willing to do? Is that asking too much? SMH 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@jaflenbond7854]

Jesus Christ KNOWS that thousands of years ago, he 1. exposed Satan the Devil as a LIAR, the Father of LIES, and Murderer of human beings as written and recorded by apostle John in the BIBLE, in John 8: 44 2. revealed that the Creator is the Only True and Sovereign God who authorized and sent him from heaven to earth to preach and teach the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" to imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings as written and recorded by Luke and apostle John in the BIBLE, in John 17: 3, Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26 ATHEISM and EVOLUTIONISM VS. the CREATOR Atheists and Evolutionists KNOW that they are spreading throughout the world the LIE and false claim that the Creator doesn't exist and even if existing is still cruel, merciless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the True and Sovereign GOD but DON'T KNOW and just can't understand that their rebellion and defiance of the Creator's Sovereignty, will, and commandments will bring them nothing but their own dishonor, disgrace, downfall and ETERNAL DEATHS, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever RELIGIOUS FANATICISM VS. JESUS CHRIST Jehovah's Witnesses, SDAs, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Born Again Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions also KNOW that they are filling the world with the LIES, Unbiblical, and false teachings of their anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders about "Armageddon", "Trinity", "heaven and hellfire", "rapture", and "reincarnation" but like Atheists and Evolutionists, also DON'T KNOW and just can't understand that their mockeries and rejection of Jesus Christ's Biblical authority and teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" will definitely bring them dishonor, disgrace, shame and cause their own downfall and ETERNAL DEATHS, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever. SATAN the DEVIL is real and existing and the dishonor, disgrace, downfall and Eternal Deaths of Atheists, Evolutionists, and fanatics of Christian and non-Christian Religions are proofs that they were lied to, deceived and murdered by Satan the Devil, exposed by Jesus Christ thousands of years ago as a LIAR, the Father of LIES and MURDERER of human beings as written and recorded by Apostle John in the Bible, in John 8: 44. MANKIND'S HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH THROUGH JESUS CHRIST JESUS CHRIST KNOWS that all lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons who willingly submit to his authority and put their faith and hope in his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" in their obedience to what were written in Matthew 28:18, Luke 4: 43, and John 11: 25, 26 are clearly his Followers and Worshippers of the Creator on earth who are definitely bringing themselves honor and the loving, kind, and merciful Creator's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death on a safe and peaceful earth without LIARS, slanderers, perverts, traitors, and murderers as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4, 8. The CREATOR KNOWS that all human beings will just become worthless and useless dusts on earth after their deaths just like the animals as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19, 20 ; 9: 5, 6 but he knows too that he will not let his loving, kind, and respectful worshippers who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Daniel, Jesus Christ's followers, and many others to remain as worthless and useless dusts on earth forever, instead, in the right and proper time and as written in John 11: 25, 26, he will let Jesus Christ RESURRECT them back to life so they can all happily and abundantly live and exist on earth forever as submissive and obedient subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD" or HIs Kingdom and fully enjoy his and his Christ's eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.

[@evyd222]

@achristian11 So what you’re saying is you believe in love with conditions.

[@cheriehumphrey5657]

Sean could you please schedule perhaps a 2 or 3 part series with Emery Wang as a follow up to this? You said several times in this interview you were going to put a question aside for the moment and Emery put a lot out there that I’d like to hear you two discuss as well as ask your questions (and vise versa). And maybe set this up so it’s polite but not so cautious to try not to offend the other. We aren’t “punished for our unbelief.” It’s sin that God punishes.

[@Andre-cb9zt]

@36:00 I think the problem with conversation is so much of what we as persons can do. Salvation is by grace through faith alone, as such we cannot do anything to save people from hell. And the greatest thing we can do is to follow God's commandment (in the bible). Just like a boy- the best thing he can do is to follow his father's commandment (who knew better, who knew what is best for his child and future). Sure the child will one day be more knowing and more mature than the biological father, but we never will be older and more mature (and more knowing) than God who has existed and remain unchanged since the beginning of time.

[@merc8es]

So disturbed by hell, why not become an annihilationist rather than a materialist?

[@g07denslicer]

21:35 "God is a subject, can give commands that can change, but his character is fixed." Ok, but at the end of the day, we are judged according to what God commanded (like the ten commandments), not acccording to His character. So to say that God's character is fixed is a moot point.

[@leftykiller8344]

The whole conversation just got thrown out the window when I found out he had an intro by Stryper in his podcast. 😂 Talk about a blast from the past on that one. Even bought Michael Sweet’s solo stuff back in the day, not to mention the “Reborn” album in the 00’s. All kidding aside, great conversation, I would love to see Mr. Wang back on sometime in the future.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

I miss that podcast sooooooo much. It was part of my process of reconverting. It is an example of what the atheist-Christian discourse should be like. Honestly, apologists do a terrible job representing atheists accurately. Kudos, Mr Wong! Loved you and your pastor friend (Norton). I’m still a member of A Christian and an Atheist Kiva team (last I checked).

[@SeanMcDowell]

Yep, it was Emory!

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

Thanks for responding, Sean. But it was Norton I was thinking of. Emery’s first co-host. I loved their interaction. So fresh and genuine. I edited my first post to correct.

[@g07denslicer]

8:09 ? This phrasing "you were in college, out of the home" I wonder if Sean is asking this to reinforce the notion in Christians listening to this that "You see? If you send your kids to college, they will turn into atheists! Keep your children out of college for the good of their eternal soul!"

[@appieb.8883]

Never heard of Emery Wang, but he did an excellent job describing morality from a secular humanistic point of view.

[@sarahpfeuffer1396]

Thank you for this great conversation! I would have more questions about: 1.) doesn't every human make choices and decisions about their belief in God/the creator? And is it possible they could be held accountable for their choices? 2.) Emery, if a creator does exist, doesn't it mean it created love and beauty and goodness and the concepts of justice etc? And if this is the case, how could it be that the creation is greater than the creator? Thanks to both of you Sean and Emery for this dialogue!

[@trumpbellend6717]

No, "Belief" is not a "choice" dear

[@sarahpfeuffer1396]

@@trumpbellend6717 we make choices every day that influence our belief and trust in people and or things, even things about ourselves. If we listen to the wrong people long enough we will start to believe the things they believe and say. When lawyers make a case to a jurry they are presenting arguments to persuade their trust in one direction or another. When companies advertise they are influencing our desires and our trust in brands or products. The environment and things we choose to be a part of (such as the music we listen to, the people or culture we enmesh ourselves, thoughts in our own minds we choose to embrace) have a direct correlation to our future choices, thoughts, desires and beliefs. If you choose to humbly seek God, whether or not you believe he exists yet, you are giving God the opportunity to persuade your heart to know him. You can do this by listening to evidence for God, praying to God, reading the Bible, hanging out with true born again Christians, embracing a thankful and humble attitude towards your creator.

[@mikelsikel73]

Sean, I have put comments before on your other videos with the criticism that it is a bit “one sided” ie your guest and you are often on the same side. On the contrary with this one, I’m only a third through it so far, but I would like to commend you - and thank you - for bringing a guest who has quite a different set of views. This was a bit risky in the sense of an apologetic goal because it opens the possibility of the guest raising some points that might be difficult to counter in the context of a conversation like this rather than a formal debate. I really appreciate your openness and candid conversation with your guest Emery. Thanks again - I hope you do more like this with interesting guests who are not necessarily atheists but have views that are different than a standard evangelical Christianity.

[@nolt4024]

I would be particularly interested in hearing a further conversation between you two about what actually led him from a “traditional” Christian background/upbringing to unbelief. …that’s a massively different position to approach someone in vs one who was never a Christian or was exposed to a Christian worldview. What questions/answers/conversations, specifically, failed you from the Christianity perspective? What teaching/insights/understandings/readings further formed up/cemented/“perfected” not just your unbelief but your departure from it? He made several statements about eternity that corresponded with both sides belief and unbelief…where do you truly come down on it? What are your struggles with it? In terms of God’s nature and His attributes which ones do you see as the most problematic for the Christian worldview from the perspective of an objective morality He places/projects onto creation/humanity? What is eternal? Should eternity matter to anyone? If not then why should existence matter in general in reference to “good/bad”? Hedonism is now God, no?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

"What questions/answers/conversations, specifically, failed you from the Christianity perspective?" there is no god, easy.

[@nolt4024]

@@HarryNicNicholas way to go bub. 👍

[@patriceriksson7924]

There is this grown up person sitting there admitting he believe in gods and ghosts and shit! I wonder. Will he actually grow up?

[@Cousinsjay]

This is so sad..Sean is such a nice man but he keeps evoking the word god as he sees it totally excluding any of the thousands of religions that are founded on beautiful teachings of ethicial and moral teachings. Sad to say he had no choice with his parents influence...If he grew up in Iran he would be a muslim.

[@Its.jennamiller]

Thank you Sean for this conversation. My heart goes out to Emery. I appreciate the civility between the two of you. I realize the difference of world view here. Christians view the world through the lens that God is truth and good. In a worldview where God is removed we can only look at things subjectively. Emery talks about fairness and I immediately think about Job. It's very clear that a good life is not a reward from God and a bad life is not a judgement of God. God is always good and we are not able to see through God's lens to know how everything knits itself together for God's goodness- which is ultimately truly good. I really hope people with the same view as Emery can have their hearts humbled to the goodness of God. The elevation of self in modern times is concerning. Just because it doesn't make sense to humans doesn't mean it's not true. We cannot limit God based on our understanding.

[@shawn4110]

"God's goodness- which is ultimately truly good" That is a tautology. Define 'good' without appealing to God. If you cannot define good without appealing to God, then how do you know what good is to make the judgment that you made claiming God to be good? If you can define good without appealing to God, then your statement is incorrect since God could, himself, be compared to an outside standard of 'goodness', while if you have no outside standard, then good is merely the subjective whim of God which is not an objective standard any longer, but a mere preference of a powerful being.