More Conflict Coming for The United Methodist Church

A comment by John Lomperis leads to asking some demographic information that leads to some pretty clear indicators that a lot more conflict is coming for the UMC despite the irenic language of leadership. I talk a bit about anthropology (in the theological sense) and political theory, and we look at some of the latest disaffiliation numbers generated by Jeff Pospicil. Interesting stuff!

[@robertkersten3971]

I agree with your analysis of the upcoming conflict within the post-disaffiliation UMC. Once folks who were told to wait until the General Conference to receive a less expensive buyout, and those who were promised that nothing will change from the UMC they had always been a part of all their lives realize that they were deceived; many will simply walk away. If this happens in mass; won’t this reduce the number of congregations able to afford a full time pastor. What about guaranteed appointments? I can foresee a lot of conflict, pain, and suffering on the post-UMC’s horizon.

[@jamiepeeler9660]

Would you produce a video discussion of the US conferences and their different approaches to disaffiliation?

[@plainspokenpod]

Oh golly that would be so difficult. I would need a panel of insiders to correct me. There have been so many moving pieces. This task would be beyond me. I'm sorry, Jamie! I could speak with confidence to like 15 conferences, but that is not even half of them...

[@rogermetzger7335]

My great grandparents came from three different denominations, none of them methodist. My parents were never methodists nor have my siblings or I ever been methodists. I’m not currently a member of any religious organization. BUT our parents made sure we learned a little bit about the protestant reformation. They believed the reformation should continue SO they thought of the Wesley brothers as reformers. Among conservatives of other traditions than methodist, many people speak of themselves as “saved”. Questioning such people has led me to the conclusion that most people who use that language are referring to justification - God’s forgiveness. When asked from what they are saved, the vast majority have given the same reply, word for word, “Hell fire.” Well, God’s forgiveness is important. I think many - maybe most - of the people who call themselves Christians in the United States started their Christian journey by subscribing to the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone. When I was a boy, my dad repeatedly advised me, “Read for yourself, study for yourself and think for yourself.” The way I read my Bible, there are at least three aspects of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification. So I’m delighted that the Wesley brothers and most methodists emphasize both justification and sanctification. My mother-in-law favored the Nazarene denomination and one of my brothers-in-law was a Free Methodist pastor - all now deceased. Shortly after I met John, he loaned me his seminary textbooks and I read all of them. That was before I even knew he had a sister. I had played my violin during Free methodists worship services a couple of times before I was invited to join the choir. I wasn’t even attending regularly but it was while I was singing in that choir that I was introduced to one of the choir members as John’s sister. John’s father had died and his mother had remarried so they had different last names. John was the clergyman of record for the celebration of our wedding. Decades later, I played in a small orchestra that accompanied the congregational singing of my mother-in-law’s Nazarene congregation. Based on my admittedly limited observations, most Free Methodists, Nazarenes and Wesleyans have put the pulpit in the middle of the platform rather than the middle of the platform being reserved for a formal “altar”. I’ve been told the placement of the ulpit in the middle of the platform is symbolic of the centrality of the preaching of the Word. I suspect another reason is that some members of smaller methodist denominations have considered the mass to be a blasphemous ceremony and have considered an altar in the middle of the platform to be a vestige of that ceremony. From what I’ve read about the Global Methodist Church so far, it seems likely that the majority of Global Methodist congregations are or will be retaining the more “traditional” layout of the platform with the pulpit off to one side. In spite of those differences of the Global Methodist Church from the Free Methodists, the Nazarenes and the Wesleyans, I’m surprised that I haven’t heard of many people who are leaving the United Methodist organization and, in the process, joining one of those smaller methodist denominations. Is it maybe because there are several states (U.S.) where there aren’t many Free Methodists, Nazarenes or Wesleyans?

[@ChurchHistoryStories]

The second graph is also off - the 2021 data in UMData reports under 28,000 US churches back when less than 200 churches had utilized 2553. Over 6,000 disaffiliated (so far), and another 1,500 have closed for various reasons according to GCFA. That's 7,500+ churches. With more special conferences scheduled, I don't see it being north of 22,000 by the end of 2023.

[@actionsub]

I would submit that all these shenanigans on the part of the UMC bishops has also ironically hurt the Global Methodist Church's prospects. So many disaffiliating churches got tired of denominational reindeer games and opted to go independent rather than unite with the GMC.

[@natashatomlinson4548]

Independent is the better choice anyway. The GMC has borrowed too much of the UMC’s mess - like the episcopacy.

[@marshalldarcy7423]

Christianity is not about sex but about getting beyond the carnal evaluation of life. God is an absolute good.

[@stevesafety6743]

Great video Jeff. Keep up the good work.

[@DougFrantz]

Yep, when I brought it up at our council I was told only one or two churches would be leaving. I said we should at least discuss the issue so it's been talked about a little, but no major theological decisions have been established yet. I don't know if it was ignorance or intentional misinformation from the conference, but I know which one it felt like.

[@randywyrick2924]

I would appreciate your comments on the situation and couldn't the UMC have done more to help this congregation? Now they have lost a church and have a toxic building to deal with.

[@plainspokenpod]

Which congregation are you talking about?

[@ricmiller9624]

The true calamity of this is the church’s that have to stay , the congregations will leave and may not find a new church and just say to heck with this . THAT is the worst part, it may drive people away from GOD

[@plainspokenpod]

This is obviously true but often under appreciated. Thank you for this important reminder.

[@kmbbmj5857]

I didn't leave the Methodist Church; the Methodist Church left me.

[@mcconn746]

We in Georgia had to sue to get out. As far as I am concerned, the UMC owes my Church $3500. I was on the fence before that. After that, I would have left my Church if my Church had not disaffiliated. UMC leadership is as bad as Democrat party leadership...pathetic. That is just my opinion.

[@stephenmannion7544]

Can a church just have trustees resign, pastor resign, and walk away and leave the keys without officially closing? (Plant a church or just go as a group to a GMC church)

[@kerrybowers865]

The church facilities numbers leaving or staying do not reveal the real impact to the UMC which can best be realized in congregant numbers staying or going.

[@erikschultz7166]

Without the constraint of conservative churches the left will push their theology further. Angering more of the middle of the road. The number of churches is not as relevant as the number of active members. Individuals are not restricted from disaffiliation.

[@jabeavers]

Re: Tabula Rasa, I mean, brainwashing is a thing. The other thing is that culture shifts with generations. So, a family may stay in a UMC that teaches progressivism, and the parents may hold conservative values, but their kids will more readily accept progressive values, and their kids even more so, and the culture of that local church has shifted more Left.

[@plainspokenpod]

I don't think I disagree with you. Cultures can and do change over time. Attitudes do shift. Even so, I believe there are limits. The efforts of Communism in the USSR and China have used every measure imaginable to reprogram their entire societies. While they have been able to do incredible things, they have also had to reckon at times with limitations. Given that the UMC is much more limited than these state powers, I'm pessimistic about their ability to maintain peace if they coerce churches into staying against their will.

[@jabeavers]

@@plainspokenpod I guess I wasn't thinking about the "keeping peace" aspect of what you were saying.

[@Hootymae]

As with everything…. It’s all about the $$. Each church congregation married themselves to the “united” by giving away their property to the “whole.” When they leave they want their property back and the “whole” really doesn’t want to give it back. They want these congregations to buy their property back to disaffiliate. Also, Africa says homosexuality is illegal so they could not vote for acceptance.

[@zorro961000]

you wont be trapped. join the global methodist church

[@gregjames9875]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11-Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[@user-dq3zu7dx4j]

Left behind? Rather be w gay sinners than coward betrayers. Dante’s hell has betrayers in basement.

[@robreck6082]

It is interesting to me that, now that you have left the United Methodist Church, you intend to keep trying to run it from the outside. There will be discussions from within the United Methodist denomination, but you should move forward with your church and your new goals. As a member of a church that is not leaving, I would have to say that there have been lies, exaggerations, and misleading statements on both sides. You should deal with that problem on your side rather than pretend that they do not exist. From this point forward, people will be free to vote with their feet.

[@plainspokenpod]

You obviously haven't watched much of my stuff. I've spoken to this several times. The "both sides" stuff doesn't fly. One side has behaved much worse than the other. My side doesn't have to be perfect in order for me or others to call attention to bad behavior. And a person doesn't have to be internal to a conflict in order to share information, or even an opinion, about it. The fact that you want to silence voices like mine doesn't speak to justice, but to an awareness that your side has behaved shamefully. Rather than take issue with those who highlight bad behavior, how about you do your part to rectify it?

[@robreck6082]

Since I am in a church that is staying and since I know of the lies that have been told about us by those leaving, I can give personal witness to the problems on both side. However, my 2nd point is much more relevant. You are no longer a part of the UMC. Going forward, the problems within the UMC will no longer belong to you. I do not want to nor do I have the power to silence you. I will not have you speculating on my motivations as if they were fact. You can comment on any church issues for any denomination that you like. I correctly pointed out that since you are no longer a part of the United Methodist Church, this is no longer your personal business. As a person who is now an outsider, the relevance of your comments to those who stay is nil. You were upset enough about things that you solved the problem by leaving. Your continued focus on your previous church can only distract from your efforts to build your new church. You won't hear from me any more.... I have suggested mind your business and do something that could make a difference. If you choose not to do so it is your own time you are wasting. You have your own set of challenges and I hope you will attend to them. I will do the same.

[@lauriemilam8805]

Progressivism in the Church at large, is deadly and damnable. Either one believes Gid and His sufficient, written Word, or one does not. Since God changes not, according to His Word, one must choose. It is not an, ‘either/or’, or, ‘and’. His Word stands. Those who wish to try and bend God’s Word to ‘fit cultural climate’, are doomed, and have apostatised already. Read/ study& practice God’s Word- as given. Not some man-made theological obfuscations. Otherwise, you are fair game to be deceived. The choice in the matter is quite simple. It will undoubtedly cause push back. Are you going to follow God, or man? Are you more fearful of God for disobedience to His Word, or of disobeying a man?

[@Sheltowee1775]

What a bunch of whiners.