MORE LIFT!!! Custom STOL Leading Edge Cuffs

[@erinfolsom6852]

Couple days ago, 6/27, wife and I are driving to Las Vegas just out of Mountain Home when I see 2 small planes flying low coming at us. Lead plane has wild bright wig wags..."I know that plane." Had to lean forward and look up through the windshield as it went over, "Looks like the Freedom Fox", then the next plane, black and green Carbon Cub, "Yep! I know those dudes!" Was way cool.

[@wildbill00000]

This is a good lesson to others, just because you want something to work, doesn't mean you should talk yourself into making something that doesn't work, into something that’s gotta work. Considering how incredibly well your other experiments have gone, I’d say, keep on trying. Really glad to see you posting videos again.

[@jennieanddavis]

This is my favorite part about aviation. With all the superfluous regulation, it's great you can still legally wrench on a plane like this and have fun. I can't wait to get back into flying. Thanks Trent.

[@trschreck]

thanks for having the stones to put up a study with a negative result. so much science is lost because people are often not inclined to show the failures. love your work!

[@walterbrown8694]

Very good approach to a technical question - Introduce a single variable at a time, if possible - Excellent analysis, covering not only the effects of attachment methods/shortcomings, but also the effective re-location of the VGs. Folks like you comprised my "A-Team" before my retirement from Lockheed 30 years ago.

[@KB4QAA]

TS: This isn't science. He's just goofing around like this was an RC model plane.

[@RWBHere]

Thanks Trent. You could try fitting leading edge slats, which should help to lower your stall speeds.

[@velocity550]

Try adding slots in the cuffs. Look at all the other radical STOL aircraft...Helio Courier, Zenith 701/750 etc...and they use slats which allows air to flow between the leading edge and the main wing. Moving the VGs forward would help too.

[@DreadnautVS]

Or perhaps, a Wilga? =)

[@Hyperious_in_the_air]

Slats severely reduce cruise speed.

[@DreadnautVS]

@@Hyperious_in_the_air That's not accurate. Slats SLIGHTLY reduce cruise speed, not severely as you stated. I've seen guys that put slats on Cubs, Tri-Pacers, and many other aircraft and some saw 0 and up to 5ish mph difference in cruise speeds. It's also important to remember the difference between slats, slots, and the above, cuffs. Listen to Trent's buddy Mike Patey talk about it here (he talks about level flight and how the wing hardly notices the slat is there): kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZm7gK17iJyZkKc

[@velocity550]

@@Hyperious_in_the_air Trent said he wasn't concerned about loosing cruise speed in the video.

[@steveburrington4288]

Hey Trent, you inspired me to order my KitFox last week. Love your vids. - Steve

[@stevek7649]

Congrats Steve. You’ll love building and flying your Kitfox.

[@redluckog7008]

Awesome

[@travisk5589]

Congrats. I hope you used discount code copter kids for 20% off.

[@mikecorleone6797]

I’m building a part 103 affordaplane first to learn the basics before i build a kitfox. I also have my eyes on the zenith stol ch 801... so hard to choose between the two

[@stephenfrancisnyc]

Mike CorLeoné I’m eyeing the exact same pathway - are you building the a-plane yet?

[@JohnRobertson22]

Hey Trent, I just got my PPL and while I’ve always known I wanted to fly, sometimes money, life, and everything felt like it was too much. Your videos were like a driving force behind my dream. Thanks buddy, now to find a tail wheel instructor!

[@steveburrington4288]

I can make recommendations in Austin, TX area.

[@JohnRobertson22]

@@steveburrington4288 I'm from Missouri but thank you!

[@quartfeira]

I'm from Europe I don't have the money right now but I hope I can get my ppl asap. It's painful knowing that it will take a lot of time but I love aviation and I need to concentrate.

[@jefftaylor728]

I installed leading edge cuffs on my highlander. Didn’t effect cruise speed, barely made the stall lower, but improved the landing characteristics immensely. Of course the indicated airspeed gets all jumpy weird at those speeds anyway. It seems the wing will fly at higher AOA in the flare. I’m also nose heavy CG, running a Jabiru 3300. Before when I got slow to land in the flare the thing dropped out of the sky like a sack of .... now there is still some elevator to play with that actually does something. This coupled with the TK1 gear changed my highlander night and day.

[@HaydenGinz]

Hope to see you again at Oshkosh 19 really injoyed sitting in Draco and meeting all of the flying cowboys.

[@Jwmbike14]

I would definitely try again if you can improve the attachment and VG situation. Its REALLY difficult to screw up an airfoil with a leading edge cuff to the extent that Clmax is so impacted it doesnt make up for the added wing area and net Zero gain. In other words, the extra camber, or the extra wing area both independently should have had an impact. So, losing performance indicates to me that there was a serious detachment issue. I would imagine the performance you saw is closer to cusp no VG's, vs no cusp with VG's, meaning the VG's were at or around where the separation/trip was occurring leaving them almost blanked out at high alpha. This would also explain the uncertainty on landing or stall when the VG's would go in and out of being effective. Another great video Trent. I've been wanting to make an experimental av channel specifically following the build and application of modifications followed up with test flight and analysis of various little parts. More of a technical Vlog with 3 or 4 part episodes; theory/design, install, test flight, analysis and data.

[@sysfx]

Possible explanationn: the longer leading edge effectively reduced the wing's incidence angle.This forced you to fly at a higher'angle of attack (as evaluated from the fuselage, not as 'seen' by the wings). The consequent change in attitude - nose up - increased the fuselage's drag, spoiling the desired effect. Possible solution: increase the incidence angle.

[@Odan6969]

I dont see this as a miss Trent, all information is growth. Great vid, love your work.

[@johnkoz34]

Spent the weekend binge watching every video. FANTASIC! Better than anything on Netflix.

[@mannypuerta5086]

Micro Aero recommends placing their VG’s a certain dimension from the leading edge, whether having a leading edge cuff or not. What this means is installing a cuff first, then adding the VG’s. I’m thinking a valid test would be more in line with repositioning the VG’s AFTER installing the cuff. This, of course, would be additional headache and perhaps without the desired advantage.

[@DoctorDo52]

Hey Trent, I used to fly RC aircraft, we covered our planes with monocoat covering cause it shrinks and pulls together with a hot air blow dryer, and we used to take the wing tips and bend the forward toward the ground and put the blow dryer on it so it will stay in place, the object to this so the wing tips wont stol while landing and the wing tips will still have lift after the stol from landing, so thought you might try putting the Custom stol leading Edge cuffs just on the wing tips and see if you gain lift while your landing the aircraft. just a Idea for you to try.

[@pierheadjump]

Thanks Keith, great 👍 video ⚓️

[@TheeAthis]

Right on man. Give it a shot, you never know. If it works out, I think you will end up with pretty much everything you need to make the ultimate bush plane, within it's category. Missed ya at the High Sierra STOL fly-in. Saw you met my friends Leo Fitzgerald and Warren! Hope to catch ya on the next one!

[@walker777kt]

Hey Trent, as a Pylon Judge I really enjoyed the STOL drags! See you in September!

[@jcbaily5559]

Fascinating....thanks for sharing your experiences...I love to see you fly and am looking forward to seeing how your house is coming along.....thanks, again.....take care!

[@IW4DBX]

a good lifting profile is jedelsky, often used in rc park flyer. your actual profile looks like a clark Y that is good for normal flight. I have a suggestion for you, putting three feet long sharp leading edge on wings edges, you may have a more stable stall. to resume jedelsky profile, your leading edges shoult point down more than now. it's better to think about a removable mod, to keep the efficient travel speed as now

[@tangobayus]

That cutter is a very cool tool!

[@PaulTronier]

Sweet That’s my truck in the background at stead, I was out flying my employees to Chico that day!

[@arrowsofartemis7561]

I flew a T-41 (c172) for about 500 hours before my boss added a drooping lead device. It didn’t add any t/o or landing performance. I was able to fly with the airspeed needle sitting on 0 very comfortably. In the end it wasnt worth the investment. Thank you for your videos Trent.

[@FarmerFpv]

Great upload Trent, what if you rolled the Leading Edge cuffs inboard maybe 1 or 2 degrees you would have to cut them all over again but you would see some significant gain, don't know what you would lose on cruise that's the problem. Might not lose anything on cruise and the top but benefit from a little slower stall speed.

[@poonamkulung7042]

Legend is back.

[@memule]

Given that the cuffs changed your angle of attack relative to your pitot tube, are the speeds with and without the cuffs accurately comparable?

[@UncleKennysPlace]

Need to do a ground speed comparison going in four or more different directions, or get a pivoting pitot.

[@BenFreedmanRacing]

It's always good to try new ideas, props to that

[@challenger2ultralightadventure]

Great job with the evaluation. The back to back is hard to beat when making such comparisons. I hope to see everyone in Reno for the Stol Drag Races. Cheers from Winnipeg.

[@DavidBruner_NJ]

Always enjoy the videos. My goal is to order a Kit Fox in the next two years.

[@L2FlyMN]

Are you or any of the flying cowboys planning on coming up with Draco’s arrival at the Milaca Mn, STOL competition August 2 - 4? I just found out the news & am excited to see the plane you almost beat. Price wise, you were the winner. I love to see the friendships formed in the aviation world!

[@pauljs75]

I'm curious if slotting the leading edge piece would make a difference as well? (Would it be easy enough to do with the foam?) I think some aircraft do that too.

[@gregkowalski7703]

I’m loving your videos. I just got my Part 107, but now I want to get my manned aircraft pilots license!

[@parapsychologist5402]

Great video Trent, love your Channel, hope your house is coming along. Thanks for the videos.

[@goober239]

Hey! Keep the slats, and put a 1.5 inch space between the slats and the wing. They work best that way! The Antonov AN-2 has extendable slats. I would try to experiment with spring loaded slats too.

[@MrJimbok1]

Trent, it sounds like any improvement would come from the divot between the the leading edge meets the wing topside, and if you move the vortex generators forward. Only you can decide whether the possible improvement is worth it. It sounds like the answer is no.

[@supportbyfire3207]

I can’t get enough of these videos. Keep them coming Trent!

[@Veteran_Aviator]

Trent, that’s an awesome idea. I really like seeing pilots push the envelope and try new stuff. In my experience the VGs are much more effective than the sportsman cuff. I think the cuff gave you a net positive over a slick wing but negated the VGs for a slight loss in performance. The cuff with effective VGs will probably really make a difference.

[@m.3002]

I like that, Tinker, Tweak & Tune has a nice ring to it.

[@rickylarch]

Those look like they extended the chord, but not the camber and a camber increase at high alpha is the main point of a cuff. If you look at the Sportsman cuff, it's almost all below the camber line. I think the performance reductions you saw were the effect of the relative movement of the VG's and that lip you mentioned. They looked like chord extensions, which have the opposite effect to camber increases at high alpha.

[@airplanegeorge]

that gap could be a big part of the problem. have heard of very easies going off the end of the runway because of loss of lift on the canard caused by the tiny ridge from a spanwise paint job masking line. I have added narrow strips to trailing edges of wings or strip ailerons, [R C} and been amazed by the differance.

[@Racerman27410]

Smart man...count the wins and keep moving forward.

[@jamesharkness1058]

This was so cool to watch!

[@Hawaiian80882]

thanks Trent

[@JonasMarcinko]

My osmo does the exact same thing sometimes! So annoying. Awesome experiment though, wish the results were better :/

[@5150Lane]

I agree with you that adding the leading edge cuff probably took your VGs out of the equation, which is why you didn't notice any increase in low speed performance with the cuffs.

[@cpolt1192]

Hey Trent! Good to see you trying some new stuff!! How is Nick doing? Any update on his recovery? Is he starting to walk again? Our best wishes to Nick. We are still thinking about him!

[@outsideraircraft5215]

Cool. Interesting about Kitfox doing this for their wing as is without changing/adding for e.g. lower camber on the wing which might explain little to no difference too but then it means a whole new wing design. One can make pilot-controlled leading edge slats moving them in flush for cruise and out for landing but that's a whole new ball game, trade-off with a little more weight and an entire new wing design. Try a wing with variable incidence next, ask Kitfox to design you one of those! : ) ho ho *kidding. Good, great stuff, fantastic stuff as usual on your channel.

[@1950harleycharley]

Reminds me of a KTM for the sky....sporty and yet not cheap....NICE JOB!

[@FarmerFpv]

Strange I never seen them without slots between the Leading Edge and the cuff. I figured you would want airflow behind the cuff over the wing Leading Edge. How about those automatic Leading Edge slats? Kind of what they have on the double ender stol plane? Love your videos bro you need to post more often I have a feeling I'm going to end up with a Kit Fox next year I have a feeling that I just can't shrug off you're killing it in this industry and an inspiration to all 🤘😍

[@ericmuetterties1984]

Pretty cool analysis. Things are not always what we think they might be.

[@RTB88KEYS]

What's up guys ? first your barber's got a great sense of humor !. great videos !

[@bigtires100]

Hey Trent you might have had a better result if you moved the vortex generators forward onto the "new" leading edge. The test compared original leading edge with VGs in the correct location vs the new leading edge with VGs in the wrong location. This might have cancelled out any improvement. Just a thought.

[@Mudtiresrc]

Pretty interesting...not a flyer so I don't get to see modifications like that...Can't wait to see the air race vlogs...I was following Planes Savers and they restored a WWII C-47 where they found it in Quebec and I guess they are bringing her to Oshkosh...now Besides the Flying Cowboys I have two groups to watch at OshKosh...GL

[@steveyoung65]

Trent, A couple of things. First thanks for your research and experimental enthusiasm, your videos are very well done and informative. Second I see you have a drip pan under your cowling. That is a new engine . Are you experiencing leaks or is there just no room to store it any where else? Lastly I just brought home today my newly purchased Cubcrafters EX2 kit from Yakima, Washington. I am fortunate enough to live close enough to made the drive. I know some of the cowboys fly this plane. Someday I hope to meet you and the rest of the Cowboys on a hill side someday. Take care and good luck with the home building. I have been building since 1970. Retiring in July!!!

[@4xoverland]

Hey. I change dust caps on the tires and fans point it out. Hear a strange sound: then it's me farting. They now tell me when I need a haircut.

[@Len02013]

Try mounting them forward and leaving a gap behind to form a leading edge slat. The idea is you want to bleed off some air, increasing energy of airflow over the wing so the airflow stay attached for longer - lowering stall speed

[@dspellman2002]

At some point, we're going to see Kitfox or another designer put together a hot rod of built-in design improvements specifically for STOL racing. Kitfox will want to reconsider the weight/balance profile for the 915 engine folks, etc.

[@OzAndyify]

Try golfball dimples on the cuff and with less droop. Worth a shot.

[@TrentonPalmer]

I really do want to try this. I’ve talked about it a bunch of times but have yet to actually try it

[@OzAndyify]

@@TrentonPalmer You could 3D print a roller of some kind to imprint the foam. Not sure of the dimple size (tuned VGs?), or how you would manage the covering though. Since you are going experimental, may as well try it!

[@pappybo49]

Good job 👏 that’s interesting. I enjoyed the process from start to finish and I certainly agree there would be no benefit to fabbing a new cuff of carbon fiber just to prove it doesn’t work. That’s not a failure, that’s proving a theory. Good job 👍 again.

[@stevemarlin6852]

Hey Trent, I added a leading edge cuff to my stock Highlander wing. I didn’t get much difference in stall performance. Where the addition of the leading edge cuff really improved the slow speed performance was after I added VGs to the very front of the leading edge. It improved my LANDING SPEED, (high angle of attack, medium power setting) and elevator and aileron authority at that flight condition. It slowed my handing speed by 5-7 mph. That wing hangs on so much slower now that I was amazed. Could you stick some VGs on there and try it out? I wouldn’t give up on the cuff until you’ve tried that out. Great videos man. Hope to see you at HSF.

[@TrentonPalmer]

Hey Steve, yeah it was partially seeing how much of an improvement the Kitfox leading edge was on the highlander wing that made me want to try this. Unfortunately I just never saw any improvement. Again, probably could have used a bit more finesse and tweaking to get a true gauge on it, but that’s a lot of work, I just wanna fly!

[@stevemarlin6852]

I know what you mean Trent. Going to do a bunch of that tomorrow! Cheers.

[@joshc7091]

Trent if you had the vg’s forward i believe you could get the stall to 30 possibly lower with the cuffs

[@AustNRail]

The VG’s make a difference so hence maybe they would make a huge difference if they where moved onto the new leading edge cuff? Just a thought.

[@Ripper13F1V]

Im thinking leading edge slats. Ideally like the storch. But lower cost and complexity might be to offset your design with standoff/ribs, and also slotting the leading edge of the cuff.

[@Flightstar]

Kityfox loves these videos too.

[@clementmartinlaval6074]

Hi trent, when you remove your edges you recover the benefit of your vg's which can explain that the classic profile of your wing remains more efficient. but if you couple edge and vg, that can do the difference..dont u think ?

[@argonwheatbelly637]

Vortilons. Love them!

[@budrohammbone2806]

Cool testing the cuffs impact w/o the permanent change to the airfoil config. Still, several changes since the last STOL Drag...............

[@utahrusty7555]

Agreed with the thought that your VG's are now out of effective air flow, and any changes are now insignificant. May want to try it as Slats, or Slotted leading edges! and MOVE the VG's forward into the gap!

[@gmcjetpilot]

It was not a waste. You came to a conclusion... well done. As you said the wing is optimal. To gain you would need slats.

[@KTHKUHNKK]

At least you're experimenting. And now you know. Plus you're Darn Good pilot just don't get too cocky. LOL Keith Kuhn KK motion pictures also on KZbin

[@karlmerhoff3858]

Just put in my first ever hour of flight time with my grandpa out if red bluff life changing I'll see you up there soon

[@johnhaywood6358]

Love your videos Trent

[@lrodpeterson3046]

Although I'm a pilot and been in aviation for >50 years (and 30 years as a controller), I'm not a trained engineer. However, the first thing that strikes me in your apparent lack of change in parameters with the cuffs might be this: without the cuffs you have a virtual wing chord that has a certain element of coplanar to the axis of the pitot tube. With the cuffs, that apparent chord changes slightly, but the angle of the pitot does not. It sounds small, but is it possible you're not getting an accurate airspeed reading because of the difference in the apparent chord of the wing?

[@jamesmorris7581]

Great ! It looks extremely expert! Maintain the helpful job!

[@boosted242]

Hey Brother! Love your videos! They are really great pleasure to watch and i love the details in it! Love it all!! Keep it going!!

[@Georgewrigley]

Beautiful Trent. :)

[@Journeyman1642]

You Should have done a full time lapse video of the house like we do on all our construction jobs!!! 🤘🏼

[@LucidJunction]

awesomee !!!!! I met you a week or two ago you know my dad and I am a pretty big fan good stuff 👍👍

[@mattringen5334]

Trent, you mention the flat pitch drag characteristic of your new prop. If you have a power loss, will the EMU/FADEC drive the prop to high pitch to help your glide distance? just curious thoughts of a contingent airman and whether the manufacturer went that far in design

[@weremodel]

Did you remember to put backing blocks in the framing for towel bars etc?

[@tyfrisby5434]

I wouldn’t write them off yet. The leading edge cuffs will change indicated airspeed just like they changed the AOA indication. You could either do a similar test using ground speed instead of indicated airspeed in opposite directions and averaging the two to cancel out wind or do an airspeed calibration in each configuration to get the “true” stall speeds.

[@TrentonPalmer]

I did reference GPS in previous tests, and my landing ground roll was consistently longer with the cuff which makes me thing the airspeed wasn’t really lying. But it may be worth another shot, I’d make the cuff stick out even further though and I’d have it wrap all the way to the top of the wing chord and obviously move my VGs. That’s a lot of work though so if I do try again it will have to be after I finish building the house

[@tyfrisby5434]

Sounds like a good plan, a well designed cuff is way better than a slat since it improves both takeoff and landing performance. Good luck with the house.

[@appcarpenter1]

I was checking out a sweet Highlander on barnstomers this afternoon, the Freedom Fox made a cameo in pic number 4.

[@Bigtirepilot]

Trying the same on the Carbon Cub!

[@dvk7277]

Hey man, good effort!

[@cowboy6591]

Leading edge RETRACTABLE slats would make a world of difference.

[@forrestnelson7351]

What’s that white plane in the back of your hangar?

[@dylanmccallister1888]

The idea is to create a tubulent boundary layer, large aircraft like the embraer 175 i was on a few days ago use this to reduce drag. Total drag is drag from friction and drag from turbulence added together. In certain shapes at certain speeds, like an embraer wing at cruising altitude, increasing your Dt will more greatly reduce your Df. So overall, you lose drag increasing efficiency.

[@3valvebrandon492]

Make the tail/elevators more effective/ bigger. Also too I noticed on a cub we blocked off the gap from the landing gear to fuselage and it seemed to hold higher aoa and a little slower would be cool do see what it does to the fox.

[@dadams8086]

Interesting experiment. The key is in something you said earlier in you vid. I think you need to move the VG’s forward to get a real comparison. Don’t give up so easily.

[@HappisakVideos]

New viddy hurrah! :D

[@Just_Derek]

That’s a pretty nice airport you’re at. Hope to be there this summer. I might just watch from peavine though.

[@HappisakVideos]

Yep you learned something Trent. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. :)

[@randomamerican3287]

199k subscribers, on the dot! Let’s get you to 200k!

[@doncatchpole7370]

Good show.

[@Mike7478F]

Ok got it bro. Every action has a reaction. Remember one word behind you. EXPERIMENTAL.

[@DvjLuna]

I have seen some bush planes have retractable front flaps (I beleive that is what they are called...) or leading edges like you find on larger passenger planes...Have you considered having something like that made and installed on your plane???

[@jonathanhall7903]

Nothing ventured... now you have a good baseline.

[@davidkelm1356]

just a note: love your videos use caution hot wire cutting that type of foam I have always been told the fumes are toxic

[@FarmerTed]

Not sure you gave it a fair shot. Fore/aft position of your vortex generators is critical for proper operation (our tests show 1/2” make a huge difference) Any defects in leading edge (the lip you noted) can be even more critical. Increasing cord and camber should have made a difference since you increased wing area in both aspects. Lastly if your aoa was not working correctly I doubt your airspeed was either. Keep up the good work. I’d love to have the contact info for your Hotwire guy if possible I’ve got some airfoils I’d love to try if he hires out.