More Power Or More Aero? | GTN Experiment With The Notio Aerodynamics

[@knutbk]

Enjoyed the commercial, useful material, but the 4-5 KZbin commercial breaks mixed in were a bit much for a 15 min video.

[@marius9295]

You should make a video on watt savings when staying 12 meters behind the rider in front in 45 k/ph (TT).

[@markthrelfall3577]

It’s in the pipeline 😉

[@James-zu1ij]

I think it would be fascinating to see the CDA of a rider riding in front of a rider behind

[@robertchung4914]

@@markthrelfall3577 It depends on how fast you're riding but at 32 km/h a 12m gap is 1.35 seconds, and at 40 km/h a 12m gap is just over 1 second. You can see a change in VE profile when riding 1 second behind someone.

[@paisnalija]

Compare the ironman 10-12m vs. the Challenge family 20m

[@tysonadriel1347]

I know I'm kinda randomly asking but does anyone know of a good site to watch newly released series online ?

[@robertchung4914]

Very roughly (there's an exact calculation we can do but this puts you in the right ballpark), if a drop in CdA of .01 m^2 doesn't decrease your power, or decreases your power by less than 5 watts, you'll still go faster. If that drop in CdA costs you more than 5 watts in power, you're better off skipping over that "improvement" in drag because it will not improve your speed. If you're really close to that threshold, you have to do the exact calculation.

[@mikecasista]

Aero helmet run was the lowest Cda. But saying it was the “fastest” is a little mis leading when you put out 30 more watts on that run.

[@James-zu1ij]

Thinking the same. But he was going 2 KPH faster. The important one is its 15 W less between the 1st and last run which is the same speed

[@alexandergeorgesgretener]

Matt is the GOAT of going fast on a bike

[@phill2383]

Good to have Matt Botterill on board on this, but I wonder how much rider's own geometry, bike geometry and the course layout would make a difference with this. If you look at say a big guy like Ganna or Wiggins vs Victor Campeanaerts, the trade off between Power and Aero is different. Of course they don't have to swim before or run afterwards.

[@James-zu1ij]

I think to be accurate the pitot tube needs to be in front of the bow wave of the bike unless the pressure differential is mapped and accounted for by some clever electronics. I could be wrong as I'm not Hambini.

[@michaelmastell6778]

Here’s a question for you. I’m a big, broad shouldered guy. What would see bigger aero gains, bringing my elbows in by one screw hole or dropping the stack by 10mm? Both are about equal in added discomfort and I can realistically do one or the other for now.

[@Jon-lf2dj]

A lot depends on your current position, but going lower will yield greater gains. If your pads are already narrow enough that your upper arms are centered in front of your quads (www.triathlonvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/scott-plasma-6-brownlee-2-scaled.jpg), going narrower is marginal at best.

[@ShadowzKiller]

Elbows in because it reduces the holes created otherwise when arms are far apart. The only issue I have find is that if they are too close, balance becomes a problem and then it's not worth to risk your safety.

[@michaelmastell6778]

@@ShadowzKiller I’ll start working on that. Thanks!

[@bighaasfly]

Great concept but I’d love to see it related to a middle of the pack 70.3 or 140.6 age grouper. Someone who has done one or two events and is in good shape but not champion Shape. I don’t Think they would be planning on holding 270 watts for the entire distance. I would love to see the conversation opened up a little more in finding the compromise between keeping the body fresh and getting an aerodynamic advantage at a speed that a middle-age grouper would ride so they are still relatively functional coming off the bike.

[@itschalkytime]

I have a TT bike. The team Boardman 2017, looking at upgrading the handlebars but I have no idea where to start on where to start. Any advice with this?

[@owyn768]

Could've done with a longer video, didn't really answer the question of "should I go for more power or more aero?". Theres more to life than going higher or lower and different things have a different physiological impact-the goal should surely be-more aero and more power. A lot to go at for one video but could be a good series.

[@roejogan1759]

This was the ultimatum

[@markthrelfall3577]

I couldn’t agree more actually. I had hoped to bring a conclusive result, and despite the amazing data that the notio device provided, I realised quite quickly that we would need to do more on this. However, still a really interesting experiment, and hopefully opened a lot of people’s eyes up to the topic

[@owyn768]

@@markthrelfall3577 the Notio looks like a great piece of tech, combine that with power meter, HRM and lots of time then I reckon you could get way better results than spending an afternoon in a wind tunnel.

[@hebrews11vs5]

Excellent info and testing.

[@andreemurray7039]

Great to see a real world test not lab

[@samw156]

Both?

[@tomekwolny5606]

Really great thanks. Please do it again, on a bog stock 9kg endurance road bike and a mountain bike.

[@yaacov9008]

I thought it was Sean Kelly in the thumbnail lol

[@FunInTheSun808]

Any videos on aero stretches and neck pain.

[@gtn]

Hi there, check this out 👉 gtn.io/BackPainCycling

[@borisstepanov3657]

278 watta with 80 mm stack at 40,3 km/h. 263 watts with 00 mm and aero helmet at 40,3 km/h. What a big improvement of 15 watts... Common guys - stop doing that.

[@markthrelfall3577]

Are you suggesting that’s too much? It’s exactly what we would expect to find with such a change

[@borisstepanov3657]

@@markthrelfall3577 thanks for reaction. I mean your measurements looks like done as an advirtesement with errors, but presented like a big benefit. Would you agree that 15 watts is not that big achiement for such an uncomfortable position? You were asking in the beginning what is better - power or drag. I would answer comfort is more important as drag does not give much advantage even in extreme position.

[@markthrelfall3577]

@@borisstepanov3657 no problem. I agree I would actually expect more of a power saving. These tests were conducted over an afternoon in which I must admit the weather did change a bit. Therefore it’s likely I had to put out slightly different power for the same speed, but the device takes all of this into account to calculate cda. So I wouldn’t pay huge attention to the power of each run, although good as a guide. This is the reason why I have said in other comments that I feel like this video needs a follow up on the power side of things. Whilst very interesting, I realised I needed to spend more time testing those positions and power output. Regardless, it was good food for thought. For myself the 40mm was definitely best, but I’d be tempted to try 30 or 20mm in future

[@borisstepanov3657]

@@markthrelfall3577 keep going! I am your big fan and like what you are doing at this channel. All the best!

[@maleroux2393]

@@markthrelfall3577 Cool stuff. May I suggest you get Matt to pick apart the data shown at 10:28 in the video. It doesn't add up.

[@geelav2326]

Anyone know what those adjustable bars are? Make / model?

[@dzat]

For a half or full distance..comfort in aerobar is more important. No point of having a very aero but its soo uncomfortable u'll end up on the base bar...

[@adrianmayhew6835]

Great program! Very interesting

[@trevorsyversen9956]

What about adaptation? It takes time for the body to adapt to any new position. I don't think 7 mins is long enough to make judgement on a new position (output power wise). A week or two in the new position is probably required to see if the body is able to fully adapt to the new position and you're able to clawback some of that "lost" power...IMHO.

[@livinginsyn4814]

You look so comfy with the full stack height

[@jascollinscork]

Fantastic video....... love Tech especially TT/Tri Tech 👌🏻😍

[@midsfella]

Brilliant video, thanks ✊✊✊

[@pearceharris8524]

“This will definitely impinge your hips and hurt your back..: LETS TRY IT OUT!!”

[@dylankennedy8140]

Bit confused. Can you give more info - your results show your cda with the highest score, eg your first run was equally as fast as your final run with the aero helmet at 40.3, and faster than your other two runs. That first runs was also over a longer distance - not exactly apples with apples. Why did you try maintain an average speed instead of an average power? If you had kept the power the same across all efforts you could have seen what the speed benefits were.. And at the end of the race its average speed thst wins races, not cda (scratching my head).

[@markthrelfall3577]

The reason for trying to hold the same speed is to make sure that the interaction of air flow with the rider are as similar as possible between runs. If you go by power and start riding faster, this will affect the results. The same reason why components, frames, wheels, etc will all be tested at the same speeds in the wind tunnel

[@dylankennedy8140]

@@markthrelfall3577 I see, thst makes sense - but why then did they ride at different average speeds here? As seen in the final cda results, the speeds are different.

[@markthrelfall3577]

@@dylankennedy8140 simply tried to ride as close to as possible, without surges in power. The key is not to surge or make sudden increases in effort. Naturally I fluctuated a little on efforts, but they’re pretty darn close

[@dylankennedy8140]

@@markthrelfall3577 thanks for the reply. It made for an interesting video and much more valuable than track testing I think. And perhaps throws up question for future as well as answers. Thanks again 👍

[@JIMMYHIBBS1]

Good work, Bottrill

[@livinginsyn4814]

I wonder if adding a 1min max effort to each height would have shown the drop in power in a quantifiable way

[@markthrelfall3577]

That’s not a bad idea. I definitely think it could do with something further to explore the power loss side of things

[@Jon-lf2dj]

+1 This vid showed that lower can be more aero (at least in Mark's case), but didn't quantify the power tradeoff. I'd go with an FTP test in each position, or (easier) 30min. in each keeping 70.3 HR and see what the power loss is (and if the position is sustainable for more than a few min.).

[@bonzainutter]

'The coach isn't going to ride along with me so the air around me is not disturbed and we get an accurate reading'...as a motorcycle rides next to and in front filming?

[@markthrelfall3577]

Obviously that is not done on the efforts. We do that for cutaways after each run so that you guys have something to watch

[@bonzainutter]

@@markthrelfall3577 Thanks, the eternal search for balance of aero and power. Let us know when you find it!

[@jacklauren9359]

Long course is all about sustainability for age groupers. Remember there’s still a run after the bike.

[@markthrelfall3577]

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, but also you don’t want to throw unnecessary time away if you can help it

[@B1gC4st]

Mark, it's may. What's with the long johns?

[@markthrelfall3577]

It was a surprisingly cold day 😂

[@wolfpack_tri9228]

Botty knows one position, slammed, narrow, hands up. Why don’t you speak to other industry experts rather than just the same one.

[@TheMerckxProject]

Hate to be that guy, but all I saw was you getting slower the lower your cda went. And you even eluded to it. Had you done the same distance 3 times, and frankly something like a 10k, not a single person would come out of this thinking they needed to get lower on their front end. "Equilibrium" is achieved when you can get the most speed out of your FTP watts.