More tension is better?

[@TUCOtheratt]

Jerry Miculek "I refuse to accept recoil".... Ron Avery "accept recoil" Nowhere is there so much disagreement in pistol instruction.

[@CitizenCarrier]

As awesome, legendary and incredible as Jerry Miculek is, and I’m absolutely no one to say he’s wrong because I am essentially a beginner. But watch him shoot. There is very little recoil. But there IS recoil regardless. It’s just physics. I think he means it more as a mindset. That if you refuse to accept it, you’ll work harder to mitigate it as much as possible. Now for me, what I have learned recently is if I think too hard about trying to fight recoil, my groups open up too much because I’m fighting the pistol instead of working with the pistol. I try to mitigate it as much as possible, but I don!t think too hard about fighting it. Just me.

[@paddypibblet846]

​@@CitizenCarrierI think once someone gets to Jerry's level you can basically experiment and do with whatever one wants. I've found Ben Stoegers method to work the best for me. I'm a pretty big strong and athletic man and yet I shoot worse than Stoeger because like you I've focused too much on controlling the recoil rather the sights and trigger.

[@TUCOtheratt]

@@CitizenCarrier I find that if I'm in the habit if clamping hard every time then I do it without thinking while focusing on vision. Like Ben says you can't have tension throughout your body as you break shots in a match.

[@CitizenCarrier]

@@TUCOtheratt Yeah. I’m still learning as much as I can from a lot of different sources being a beginner. It can get confusing with so many different takes and philosophies if you will. One thing that really clicked with me from one of Ben’s videos is the whole vision thing. Driving the gun with your eyes. Really focusing on the target ahead of you. Like driving a car. Driving into the corner, look ahead of the corner and your eyes will guide the car through the corner. It might seem strange but that really clicked with me, made sense and helped me. I started focusing more on where I want the shots to go and just let my hands work with the gun.

[@Dilemma6796]

I think Ben addresses this. Watch Jerry shoot and forget what he says. He doesn't spend his time using his grip to fight recoil. He spends his time looking for sights on/return to target and getting a clean press. I think once his grip is as he likes it, he keeps it consistent and gets on with shooting. Watch him shoot magnum revolvers quickly. Jerry keeps firm contact with the gun but he isn't fighting the recoil. That's what I see.

[@madisonberg627]

Saving up to attend Ben’s class just so he will hold my hand 6:25

[@Quality_Guru]

Too funny.

[@CitizenCarrier]

Uh oh! Someone has a man-crush for Ben. But hey! When it comes to learning how to shoot, I can’t blame you! Can you imagine a soft, blowing wind and Ben comes up behind you with his locks flowing around your head showing you how to grip the pistol? What? Too far? 😂🤣

[@KartSmarter]

Ben put his support hand on my gun last year at fundamentals class. It surprised me how much support pressure he used. I had about the same pressure coming from my firing hand instead, which had predictable results

[@kizzmequik70four]

@@CitizenCarrier Someone should commission a romance novel cover with this exact scene. Ben gets to go shirtless Fabio-style as a bonus.

[@CitizenCarrier]

@@kizzmequik70four 😂🤣

[@Quality_Guru]

Can’t recall the competitor shooter, but he stated that hyper focus on the target is the key to accuracy at speed. Additionally, there was a video by the Humble Marksman in which he showcased 3 different competitors, and they all admitted that they don’t grip the gun as hard as they used to. The best example that I can think of is using a hammer. You grip the hammer with enough strength to drive a nail, but you don’t need to crush the hammer in order to use it.

[@donovanx85]

One shot return and doubles helped me a ton in understanding that death gripping the gun is not necessary.

[@kylehill4437]

I cant wait to take one of your classes. You are the best instructor.

[@MrZola1234]

It's an interesting topic and a key fundamental for sure. That said, I remember Ben stating in a previous video that the more you focus on the grip, the worse it will get. don't overthink it was his advice.

[@havegregory]

Tension is the enemy of performance

[@marcelschultz4033]

Relaxing also worked for me, thanks for that info. But I have to say that required me to figure another thing out before: I'am 5 cm shy of the 2m height mark. When I see ben holding his pistol there is ample space for the support hand - not for me. With gripping the pistol as is comes naturally into my hand from the holster, I would have to adjust ist, to make more room for my support hand. What helps me with that is instead of getting maximum contact area (which is limited by the pistol frames size) I have to opt for maximum grip via stippling or bicycle tubes. Its a reason why I struggled with my p10f, because the sides have not enough texture for me and with the limited contact area I struggled to really control the gun to an extent that I wanted. All fine for 5-10m but my consistency fell apart further out, say the 25m mark.

[@Thomk121]

My instructor taught me to grip it as hard as I can. I learned in my own practice that I shoot better when I loosen up and don't tense up so much. Grip it hard enough so it doesn't slip but don't white knuckle it. Its interesting to hear you say what my training showed me. Thanks for all you do, sharing your info on KZbin

[@ohscr]

I did a lot of classical percussion performance earlier in life and tension was always the enemy. Whether you are trying to play quickly, loudly, or just anxious, playing with tension dramatically lessened the quality of your sound as well as your physical precision on the instrument. It also led to tendinitis more rapidly. Tension is never the answer.

[@jimbodrums12]

Sanford A. Moeller was GM in USPSA…so…yup! :)

[@ohscr]

@@jimbodrums12 there's no way. Uspsa is that old?

[@Blain5700]

For me, grip pressure and "tension" are related but two separate things. I grip the gun hard enough to not have it move in my hand during recoil. The gun still recoils, and may recoil a lot, but my grip pressure isn't meant to counteract that part. But the "tension" to keep it somewhat flat is in my wrists and forearms. Again, not overwhelming tension or overpowering anything, just enough to be predictable.

[@TheMimsFramework]

Since adopting your method, my shooting has improved considerably within weeks. Groups are tighter, and recoil is more predictable. Keeping the firing hand more relaxed and clamping with the support hand just feels right and gives me more control vs what I’ve always been taught which is to death grip with both hands. Doing that actually led to less control over the pistol, and less predictability. Thanks for teaching the right things.

[@LiorIPSC]

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on this matter Ben!

[@adamleighton8052]

My grip used to fall apart very early but from watching and listening to your videos I put 2 and 2 together to understand what you mean. My grip with my support hand would fall apart from trying to clamp the wrong way meaning I was trying to grip with my fingers, pulling my palm forward off the grip. I then decided to emphasize maintaining pressure with the “meat” of my palm, loosing finger pressure on the grip and it clicked. I actually noticed this shooting the xmacro (no comp) and saw a dramatic difference in results with thin firearms that translated into other “full width” larger platforms

[@Nope145]

Good video. Speaking from my own experience, when I was a new shooter shooting once every two weeks, I would grip the pistol with a death grip. However, as I gained more experience and started shooting 4 to 5 times a week, my grip is more relaxed yet still firm. I think it just comes down to range time and dry fire practice to really hone your grip.

[@jakub_g007]

Relaxation my dominant hand thumb, which I rise a bit, as You adviced, was huge game changer yesterday during my training, and it was 400 shots practice immediately with that technique. Thank You Ben for that. My support hand crushes fire hand bit less then previously, but with my small hands, still need to aplay some pressure, especially in hot days when my hands are sweating. I like verry much Your videos, sending greatings from far Poland, also to Your Miata, and Mustang !!!

[@travispowell2471]

Over time my grip pressure has become less than when I started. I was doing the crush grip back then. Over gripping/trying to muscle the gun around damages my flow during a stage is the best way I can describe it. I would also have trigger freeze when over tightening my grip. Being more relaxed has greatly improved my recoil control and the return to zero. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for all the good info

[@andreandrews6237]

I’ve only been shooting for about a month now. Got a staccato CS 7/22, I fire probably 750 rounds per week. I dry fire perhaps 5 hours per day (yes, I have an addictive personality). When I first started, I was death gripping with both hands. Overtime, it’s naturally gotten to a point where now my support hand does most of the driving. I’m far more accurate 3 weeks in, and the other day I was at the range, the owner came and told me I should consider competition based on my groupings. Now I’m thinking about going to train with Ben, just discovered the competitive shooting world. This stuff is AWESOME

[@Desertpunk1986]

Definitely have found the more comfortable I get with my pistol, the less “forced” grip I’m applying.

[@AMXSShirt]

Good advice / info. So many variables. One example. I can bite down hard on my P07 and get low left consistently. If I do the same on the FNP-9 not as noticeable. 1911 is a completely different ball game. Triggers matter as well as grip, balance of pistol, could go on and on.

[@wtdconcepts]

Great tips thank you! This kind of free and valuable "knowledge transfer" (please excuse my buzzword) reminds me of the old KZbin where people just posted to better the audience rather than sell Raid Shadow Legends advertisements.

[@FiringLineShooting]

Todd Jarrett said in a class I took, "However hard you can grip the pistol now, you need to be gripping it 25% harder"... He and Jerry Miculek both have a similar approach in that regard and they both just home the gold and silver medals in the 2024 world championship for super senior rifle division... On top of that, Jerry and Lena Miculek both grip pistols with 1-2 fingers on the front of the trigger guard, which drives me nuts, but look how good they are.

[@georgecook5120]

What Ben teaches about grip pressure on the gun is very similar to what my shooting coach (Sam Conway) told me years ago. And when I listen closely, most of the shooting instructors I've seen advocate for some kind of difference in grip pressure, usually emphasizing the support hand should be applying the most while the shooting hand is relaxed enough to allow the trigger finger to move as quickly as possible. It's been some time since I've taken any shooting training so perhaps the current orthodoxy has shifted to the way people taught grip pressure back in the 70's and 80's - holding the gun with a death grip.

[@tomanderson6140]

If the grip is enough to keep the gun glued to your skin with friction, it's enough. I think the main factor is wrist stiffness. More stiffness around the wrist area is good, and if you clamp really hard, you *will* naturally increase wrist stiffness, but there are downsides. Many top shooters (Leatham comes to mind as having discussed it) have to battle to stay free of shooter's elbow, which is exacerbated by hard gripping. You can grip the gun well and high and have stiff wrists without a ton of crushing pressure (Grauffel uses front-to-back pressure for example), so think about ergonomics and longevity and getting away with less grip pressure.

[@TheRange7]

I never knew you were the sh*t Ben, holy crap....what a great track record,wow. Congrats on all your amazing accomplishments man.

[@johnelder7449]

Great video and the message was clear

[@JC-gs3br]

Full tension, everything locked out and squeezing the shit out of your pistol for a 2-5 second drill? easy. Keep that tension, while running and shooting 10 stages on a hot day? Nah. The tactical turtle, maximum recoil elimination stance and grip, is a thing of the past.

[@clistenesfonseca6570]

Good viewpoint for a next Ben's video

[@Kh2456]

It's about knowing your mission set. If you're dumping your mag in a self-defense scenario the tactical turtle is quite effective.

[@JC-gs3br]

@Kh2456 nope. We're talking about shooting. Your mission is fast and accurate shooting. Tactics is a different discussion. Shooting is shooting.

[@Kh2456]

@@JC-gs3br Shooting is shooting but maximum recoil reduction for a single magazine can and should be shot differently than a comp run.

[@Kh2456]

@@JC-gs3br Your initial post is contradictory. Shooting loose as a goose for a single mag dump is ineffective.

[@PatricTheSpartian]

I think the whole "Grip harder to tighten the grouping" comes from the fact that when most people grip harder, they lock wrists without thinking about it, which results in "better" shooting. In my own experience the grip is good when the movement has seized, be it relative to the palm or the arms.

[@n4d3m4n]

I have one gun with an aggressive stippling job from the factory. It's like sandpaper against my side. I have another gun without any stippling or grip tape. I feel like I need to clamp down more on the gun without stippling than the gun with stippling. some days shooting the sandpaper, I'm stronger and weaker, but I at least try to keep the pressures uniform and my fingers in the same place. Of course, on a fast draw I see a little variance in how my support hand meets up and I've learned to shoot through some of the differences. Focus on the target seems to take up more of my thought than a consistent grip, and the more I focus on the target than the "things I do with my hands" the better I shoot.

[@Pak_Flesot]

I just saw a hunter constantine video. He said that he grabs the gun with 100% power wirh both hands. And even jokes about almost crushing a glock frame. He even says that holding it like how you do, with a looser grip, his groups are better if he grabs harder. His video says hes a uspsa grandmaster. The video has a picture of a circle around his shoulder, saying dont do this. Id appreciate you to elaborate on this. Thanks.

[@JC-gs3br]

@Pak_Flesot I've recently seen a few of his videos, don't know much about him. Is he also an instructor? Some guys can shoot very well and use their own style, but can't teach. Ben can not only shoot well, he does a good job explaining and demonstrating techniques. He runs enough classes, he knows what works for most people. It will never be 100% though.

[@Jeffro_1]

I noticed the other day dry firing before the monthly uspsa that I had an insane amount of post striker drop wiggle in my dot when I super death gripped. I loosen it up and have no sit movement

[@gingercat2901]

That is an awesome way to teach. I haven’t seen any other instructor put their support hand over a student’s strong hand to teach proper grip pressure. Do you also have the student put their hand over yours to see if they are providing insufficient pressure or pressure in the right place?

[@user-pc9up7oj5n]

I'm surprised that people are more focused on grip than vision. I'm not implying that grip is unimportant or easy to master, but for sure is easier to conceptualize and test. Please elaborate more on vision. Thnx for sharing Ben. Highly appreciated

[@CurtisBrandt]

Yeah Ben talks a ton about vision in a lot of his videos. I think you can glean precisely his approach over his extensive tutorial library.

[@den_see]

Ben, first of all, thanks for everything you share so generously. I am a relatively new ipsc shooter and have been trying hard to follow what you teach, however its been a bit disappointing. Evaluating myself a bit it looks like im having trouble with 2 things, a weak or inconsistent grip and a lousy trigger pull. To combat the poor grip, ive been using those grip strengthener thingies and am practicing the so-called vise grip on my pistol. What are your thoughts on these? Thanks again and more power!

[@vszmey]

Hey Ben, Big fan of your work, thanks for that! Now I'm somewhere in the middle of applying your grip approach to my technique. However, in this specific example discussing pro shooters, I think there is a misunderstanding. When you say pro shooters are relaxed, it is true, but that relaxation is applied to a body of the shooter. You can't tell how hard they squeeze the gun because you don't need to tense the whole body for that. And personally I feel a big difference between "just firm" and "maximum tight" grips when shooting 15m+ targets. At the same time, when I want to shoot an easy target at a maximum speed, I have to loose a bit my grip, otherwise I can't get the speed that I need. So this is bothering me a bit, because I have to change a grip based on the target's difficulty, which doesn't seem like a correct approach. Could you advise?

[@user-rl5je6bu6n]

Ben, I’ve had classes with both you and Vogel. Any thoughts on the differences in how the two of you grip the gun?

[@BullseyeBallistics-kf1jw]

I have found that LOK grips on my Shadow 2 ruined my accuracy. Little movements i could get away with before, made the pistol move around. The stock grips allow the pistol to return in the same spot consistently. Its just what im used to.

[@onpsxmember]

It's not on th texture, it might be just too wide for your hands, causing you to use side to side pressure you're not used to. You can't just say 'Lok Grips'. They have such a myriad of versions. So give it 2 -3 weeks, get a slimmer set and try again.

[@BullseyeBallistics-kf1jw]

​@@onpsxmember they're the slim ones lol

[@BullseyeBallistics-kf1jw]

​@onpsxmember I like the factory grips. They work perfect for me. I also like those Guuun grips that are a bit thicker. I put some carbide grit on a set and absolutely love them. The lok grips were not for me. I've spent a lot of time at matches and practice figuring out what works best for me. Thicker grips help me with recoil but screw up my point of aim from the draw. So I just stick with the factory grips and let it rip. I win a lot of matches that way.

[@YVK_]

What you teach is uncontroversial as far as I'm concerned though I think it would be interesting to discuss it in a context of harder recoiling guns. I'm not talking gamer major PF guns but something like +P loads out of microcompact p365, or 10mm or 45 ACP loads with PF around/over 200 that folks might be using in their woods guns.

[@Platoon_Guide]

Mo betta!

[@jaysurvant]

Your form and instruction works best for me. It simplifies and is easier to be consistent. I have so many other things competing for my “attention”. Sexy pistola there.

[@bdove7939]

This is similar to all the batting coaches telling kids to hit down on the ball, or get on top of it. The issue; no one is doing that. Look at the videos. So maybe the perfect grip that I cannnot maintain is less useful than an acceptable grip that I can maintain.

[@nathanjames329]

Would it make sense to relax the hands and much as possible so long as the gun doesn't shift inside the shooter's grip? That seems like something I could test on my own without needing to feel how hard you grip the pistol. I fired 100 rounds of doubles recently and found better results with less and less firing hand pressure. The support hand tended to go passive, which seems undesirable.

[@inOZ8434]

Hi all, sorry for my question.., but are most of these pistols internally moded or stock, or does it actually matter??

[@coltontaylor4572]

For competition, I'd wager most guns are internally/externally modded in some way or another. Spring(s), trigger, mag catch, slide stop, shielded safety, guide rod, grip, etc.. The key is modifying it to fit YOU. Not every mod is a "positive" one.

[@inOZ8434]

@@coltontaylor4572 Thanks for your reply, extremely appreciated! 👍 Yeah, that's what I pretty much figured. I edc a CZp09, which is also what I practice with,( no internal mods) which is why I've been wondering if grip and pressure/strength matters depending on if internally moded or not.

[@onpsxmember]

Afaik he goes back to his Shadow 2s or Glocks, they're stock besides lighter recoil springs. The lower weight takes more effort but he can do the same thing. He also has a video on a S2 that he had modded as nice as possible and it just wasn't reliable after a few months. Your grip can make up for sloppy trigger work to a degree but it shouldnt be a crutch. Your support hand thumb can sit relaxed on the side of the frame just in case. If you shoot low left when you take it away it is a crutch. Work on fundamentals, set yourself a base goal like hitting a post-it at 25 yards 20 times without failure without time limit, train shot calling, do dry fire and go to local matches. Look at CZ armorer to see what makes sense. Keep it drop safe.

[@inOZ8434]

@@onpsxmember awesome 👍, really appreciate the feedback!

[@ASingh21112]

Where are people submitting questions?

[@johnb7430]

Wtf? You made me look up "heterodox" 😂

[@NESig]

Does the amount of grip pressure vary with the trigger action of the pistol, i.e., Glock vs a nice 1911 vs a DA/SA trigger pull? I may be talking myself into something here but I feel like I need to apply more support hand pressure when shooting a Glock with its' longer/heavier trigger pull in an effort to maintain accuracy.

[@clistenesfonseca6570]

I feel the same. I aplly more press in my support hand when shooting my G17 than my 1911 .45. Crazy

[@BullseyeBallistics-kf1jw]

I would say no. You want consistency in your grip. Your trigger pull will just need to be more controlled with a heavier trigger.

[@BA-oy9uo]

shoot an Echelon please Ben. Would be interesting to have your thoughts on it

[@Spaman42]

Brother ewww

[@BA-oy9uo]

@@Spaman42 dont see the problem

[@GunnerAzoneonly]

Do you think you slowly built up how hard you grip over time so that now it is without tension but yet a tighter grip than you started out with? Similar to pushing speed- at first, it requires tension to get faster but then we you establish that ability you can go that new faster speed without tension? I have been torn/confused about what to believe about gripping hard or not gripping hard...

[@CA.0verview]

0:18 this is true fall all those who subscribe to a wml wing or thumb rest on a carry gun. John Lovell was the first to push this way of thinking onto the yt space .

[@GPOLICE]

Yeah but what about for rifles? I think for slow recoil impulses like ptr91 I relax and don't fight it and that works well (accurate and precise, low effort to get fast follow up shots). But with the akm I tend to fight it, not sure why or if that's the best. If I don't fight the akm, follow up shots take about twice as long but get alot more accurate

[@CurtisBrandt]

Funny you should ask. Ben just posted about connection on rifles.

[@GPOLICE]

@@CurtisBrandt Oh sweet, thanks!

[@Johnnysocks]

Hi Ben. What are your thoughts on aftermarket parts like brass back straps?

[@coltontaylor4572]

TheHumbleMarksman did an excellent video on that, worth the watch

[@arkinso]

I wonder if this is relevant: I'm a new shooter (I’ve fired only 500 rounds so far). I've noticed that when I take my time and focus on accuracy, my shots tend to be low and left. When I try to shoot faster, my shots are no longer low and left, although they aren't as accurate. The only explanation I could find is that shooting quickly makes it harder for me to anticipate the recoil. However, after watching this video, I’m wondering if my ability to manage tension and relax my hands might also play a role. Could you please provide some insight on this?

[@onpsxmember]

Give your brain something else to do. Try focusing only on the front sight while you make one consistent movement with your trigger finger, same speed all the way through directly to your nose. You can sing the abc in your head if it takes your mind off of the trigger. Take the time to look at the pistol under recoil several times (while of course firing safely into a berm/bullet catcher), accept the recoil. Try shooting with better hearing protection and doubling up with text book correctly inserted foam plugs too. A lot can be the noise. Film yourself how it behaves under recoil. Any problem you have now can come back. Find solutions you can apply to fix things and if it comes back you know what to do.

[@arkinso]

@@onpsxmember Thank you my friend, I'll give it a try!