Mormon Stories

[@artbydawnae]

You are a beautiful gorgeous First Nation woman!! We are so very grateful for your story that so needs to be told! Thank you, and I will pass along your story to the people in my world! I honor your rich beautiful heritage. We are so lucky to have you, and we want to know your stories ❤️ thank you for being so brave.

[@kassystuart8874]

This is hitting incredibly hard for me. Thank you, thank you for this episode.

[@ireneflowers7630]

I am a Hispanic American blessed with dark skin tone and I always embraced my “curse”. I would pipe up in gospel doctrine class that I wanted to keep my coloring and didn’t want to be white. I would get weird looks but too bad. I also experienced the subtle racism but believed that the members were still gracious to me for the most part. I can totally relate. Your beautiful sister

[@utahwimmers]

What a wonderful story from a beautiful person. Sarah was the best yet of the "Lamanites" stories.

[@joepeaceman9064]

She is a beautiful person but the story is sad. Sarah has misunderstood so many things and it's tragic that people like John Dehlin exploit those misunderstandings for gain rather than attempt to increase understanding and love. I feel like he is a man with far too much power and his followers should question him more (I've asked him many questions but he never responds, so it might not help him but question for yourself :)). There is a lot of evidence that staying active in the Church increases happiness. There is no racism in the BofM, and there is abundant evidence showing that the BofM is an ancient book written by a group of Native Americans who had brown skin. This may be an important part of Sarah's heritage, and I think it's good for her to be aware of all truth.

[@l.n.4423]

Eric Wimmer thank you!

[@sarak6860]

My husband has Mohawk and MicMac heritage, mixed with a lot of white Celtic heritage. He was keenly disappointed when his lineage was declared "Ephraim" instead of "Manasseh". He always resented the concept of skin color being a curse. But we left the LDS church more than two years ago, and now he sees his Native American heritage as Asian. Thanks to Simon Southerton for teaching us this!

[@joepeaceman9064]

Awesome that your husband loves his heritage. I hope Simon Southerton hasn't misled you about it. He isn't very honest and most of what he has to say is now outdated science. There is definitely a relationship between some Native American and Middle Eastern DNA, Religion, and culture. Here is something I said to Sarah, and to Huleo--- You're a wonderful person Sarah. It's really sad for me to view this and wonder if you left the Church without ever really understanding the Book of Mormon. The CES letter is not honest. Ancient cultures often used terms such as "skins of darkness" to refer to religiosity, some clans referred to others as "black" even though their skins were all brown and all looked the same. There are no racist teachings in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith most likely translated the ancient terms directly, and then, realizing people might misunderstand, he began changing "white" to "light" and so on. Many of these changes were not completed before he was murdered by those who were led to hate. Lamanites and Nephites were one race and one family, descended from Joseph and his Egyptian wife (thus Ephraim and Manasseh were both half Egyptian ("Asiatic" or African, etc. depending on the period) AND others. Nephites most likely married in with others who were already here also. If you read the book carefully, you find that Nephites couldn't tell Lamanites by their skin color. If you were a member of the Church you technically were a Nephite. White people who want to live in the Americas will have to be adopted into the family of Lehi and, before that, they are "gentiles" without charity. The Book of Mormon is full of Native American and Middle Eastern symbolism and culture and so on, which was unknown to Joseph Smith. The Nephites were the ones who were destroyed for violence and so on. Lamanites are still here for a reason and many Naive Americans are now known to be related to Jews and others in the Middle East by DNA. These are not white people. Jesus was not Irish. John preaches with a smile, but, so far, he won't talk to me or others who question his doubts. Jesus is real, and He has established His Church in these days, and He has given us the Book of Mormon to testify of Him. It states specifically that it is written for the Lamanites first. The Nephites failed, except in their history written to us, to bring us to Christ, and from us to all the earth. Hullio it's a good idea to always question people who teach you things that stir feelings of anger inside. We know that this world needs a lot more love. Mormons are mostly non-white, and have always been among the least bigoted of peoples. In times past we were hated for teaching equality, now hate groups pretend that we are racists and white supremacists. We are Christians, and we teach love. As I explained, the BofM was written by a group of Native Americans who were descended from a Middle Eastern guy named Joseph and his Egyptian wife. They were not white in our modern terms. They spoke of being washed white in the blood of the lamb and seem to have used terms such as "skins' and "garments" interchangeably. Thus garments were made white like the lamb of God and skins were made white etc. It's clearly symbolic if you read the book as the ancient record that it is (and there is overwhelming evidence for that).

[@sarak6860]

It's not outdated at all. As the science has become more precise, it has become even clearer that Native Americans are Asian and not Hebrew. www.mormonstories.org/three-geneticists

[@joepeaceman9064]

Sara, we know in our hearts that those who stand firmly on the path to the tree of life will have others who try to lead them away. John Dehlin is one who would lead you from that joyous tree. Simon the Australian is also. Those who partake of the tree of love and live in the Americas must be adopted into the Native American tribe of Lehi. We must also be tried. In Joseph Smith's day scholars thought they proved the BofMormon false because they knew for a fact that steel wasn't invented during Nephi's lifetime....some LDS may have fallen, most held fast for 100 years and then a steel sword was discovered from Nephi's time and place.

[@joepeaceman9064]

John and other scholars seem swayed by every wind of doctrine, except the truth. Some real scholars are more humble: Dr. Judith Habicht-Mauch says: "We dont know how people got to the New World, when, or who they were, Those questions are very much up for grabs right now and very controversial" & Owsley says: "The whole model for the peopling of the Americas is in flux, it's up in the air." Here are some quotes that I hope you will read and think about. As far as I know none of them are from LDS scholars (some LDS agree, but John would tell you not to trust a Mormon, but if we only trust the critics, or those in the spacious building, we aren't really being open or honest....I think you are open and honest, and just need info: Q-P36 founding lineage among Ashkenazi Jewish populations, Iranian and Iraqi Jews, and is a founding lineage group present in 31% of self-identified Native Americans, also found in Yemenite Jews. D Garrigan, ME Kaplan, et al MF Hammer, AJ Wood, ET Wood, et al VF Chamberlain, VF Kearney Dienekes (2004) also wrote that he found the continued silence of researchers about the presence of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazim “puzzling.” (Q is one more common Native American marker). R-M173& is the most common haplogroup after the various Q-M242 in Native Americans (Malhi 2008) Haplogroup R-M173 found in the Near East and Native Americans Low frequencies in Siberia Kayser "Great Surprise"-Native Americans Have…DNA…remains revealed genes found today in western Eurasians in the Middle East … but no evidence of any relation to modern East Asians. ..Why is it important? Prevailing theories suggest that Native Americans are descended from a group of East Asians who crossed the Bering Sea via a land bridge perhaps 16,500…This study changes this idea…it's changing quite a bit of the history."” National Geographic Haplogroup R-M17..elevated levels..Israeli..Behar reported R-M17..in ..Levites 52% Passarino G, Semino O & Magri C et al. Q-M242…found in approximately 94% of South America Bortolini, M&co. in Na-Dene..50%, and North American..46% Salzano, F&co. Q-M242 men in Jewish Diaspora populations belong. Adams, Bosch&co. In conclusion, it appears that some....Native Americans and Ashkenazi Jews-may share common ancestors…(Zegura et al. 2004). Haplogroup R1 (Y-DNA) is the second most predominant Y haplotype found among indigenous Amerindians after Q (Y-DNA). González Burchard,& CO. subsequent research has confirmed that R1a1 alone comprises nearly 12% of the Ashkenazi gene pool, it now appears that Behar’s estimate is much too low. Additionally, Behar’s (2004b, Supplementary Material) own data indicate that haplogroups R1b, R1a and I comprise more than a quarter of Ashkenazi DNA results. (50% of Levite) Native American DNA: 3 types n C-M217 Q-M242 R1“R1- The origins of R-M173 remain unclear” This relative absence of haplogroup X2 in Asia is one of the major factors causing the current rethinking of the peopling of the Americas..very beginning of their expansion and spread from the Near East Am J Hum Gene&co. Also, in this 2009 study by: Perez, Bernal, Paula N. Gonzalez, Marina Sardi, Gustavo G. Politis they discuss that: “one of the major debates about the American peopling focuses on the number of populations..craniometric variation in American human remains…Amerindians have a mongoloid craniofacial shape, while Paleoamericans have a generalized morphology. ..worldwide populations…aborigines do not present the typical morphology of North East Asia… Specifically, “the American groups are more apt to join Europeans than Asiatics”.. South American groups have not specific mongoloid craniofacial traits. &Perez & Co. in discussing that Native Americans do not have Asian morphology, explained that “.. low values of genetic exchange between local and “invading” populations can result in a major contribution of local neutral genes into the invader gene pool, and almost exclusively in this direction.” What this means is, when Lehi did come to America, even a few interactions (& the BofM describes millions of people here before Lehi came) & a FEW interactions would result in the new arrivals (Lehites) absorbing local population DNA, but still DNA shows that Levites, Jews, & Native Americans are related.

[@sarak6860]

I would like to learn more about that steel sword. Do you have a link?

[@cindys9491]

27:00 they told her that interracial couples are "making things harder for themselves and the kids"...no, that's the society/system doing so. The system is making it harder for couples to fall in love and marry, just bc of color. The couples aren't creating the hardship that's put on them.

[@777LadyVenus]

I’m an indigenous woman whom was raised in Utah as a catholic! I truly understand about racism and being separated from your culture and heritage. I finally began embracing my roots ten years ago and attended pow wow’s! Sitting with a medicine man and some dancer’s one time I said “nothing has brought me more peace than my indigenous people and their ways of living! Honoring Mother Earth and all of her inhabitants! We indigenous people are powerful and truly blessed. The white man will pay for what they did and I truly forgive them and have compassion. ❤ Thank you Sarah ; your a true peaceful warrior! ❤ Much love and gratitude 🙏

[@ShannonGrover]

39:00 that is so painful to hear. I am so sorry you felt that you had to do that!

[@l.n.4423]

Thanks. On a bright note these episodes are bringing awareness. I have been surprised by how many share my experience. I didn't know how common it was. Apparently many just suffer in silence.

[@aldo8655]

Thank u John and Sarah for this podcast. I am brown too, from Mexico; I would like to tell Sarah something: "If u feel that u don't fit in any category... create your own, and invite everyone to join u regardless of their skin color, religion, believes, etc." That's what I have been doing all this time, if I have to name my category I would name it "fun".

[@joepeaceman9064]

It's sad that Sarah has misunderstood so many things AND tragic that people like John Dehlin exploit those misunderstandings for gain and don't attempt to increase understanding and love. I feel like he is a man with far too much power and his followers rarely question him. There is a lot of evidence that staying active in the Church increases happiness. There is no racism in the BofM. Terms such as "garments washed white" and "skins made white" etc. are symbolic. The evidence shows that the BofM is an ancient book written by a group of Native Americans who most likely lived in Mexico and had brown skin.

[@joepeaceman9064]

You must know her, and the BofM completely. I can't think of any other way for you to know if she has misunderstood anything. I know I misunderstood for years after my conversion. I probably still misunderstand things. LDS leaders misunderstood things also, and have explained that they were wrong about several of their personal opinions and "folklore" etc. They aren't omniscient (not sure if you are but? ;)) I read the Book regularly, along with the Bible, I find no racism in the BofM, none of the "Christian" and "Secularist" racism so prevalent in times past, and today. So, I'm curious, how do you know if she understood everything in the BofM?

[@l.n.4423]

Thanks. Love the freedom you have found! Thanks for sharing. :)

[@ekpennock]

Absolutely amazing. If anyone says the LDS church does more good than harm I will direct them to this podcast. Thank you for sharing your story!

[@joepeaceman9064]

We are all imperfect, but I can't think of any real harm that the LDS Church does. Misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, etc. can lead people away and down. John and other critics play on that and encourages falling without a hand to lift back up. The research shows that people who are led away from the Gospel of Christ tend to suffer, those that stay tend to be happy. I'm not saying those who are misled are bad or anything, but those who intentionally mislead are among the worst of people.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Hi S R, I hope you're having a great day. There is abundant evidence that the outdated 19th Century "Beringia Only" theory of Native American origins is false. The idea that Native Americans were simply not advanced enough to build boats but are only East Asians who got lost looking for food and wandered 1000s of miles over ice is a false history.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Many of these comments were responses to S R Reiley who seems to have removed his comments. SR thinks Mormons should be in jail and we make him vomit etc. : ). This is where John's pod seem to have led him...."There is a growing body of evidence that Native Americans are descended from multiple migration groups and there is definitely a relationship between Native Americans and those who developed writing, civilization, etc. There is also evidence that Native Americans and peoples of the Middle East have common DNA, Religious, and other origins. If Sarah is related to Lehi or Jaredites, that is a happy, blessed thing and she should not dismiss that part of her lineage. It is now also clear that ancient cultures used terms about skin color, curses, etc. symbolically. I've posted evidence for that. Lehites (Lamanites and Nephites) were one race, and most likely all had dark skin. Saying that they are hurting each other by using symbolic language (garments washed white, etc.) is like saying African Americans hurt everyone when they use terms such as "Black" or etc. The BofM makes it plain that the language is symbolic, as it is in the Bible. A curse is: 1828 Dictionary CURSED 1. Execrated; afflicted; vexed; tormented... CURSE me this people, for they are too mighty for me. Perhaps then I will be able to defeat them …Numbers 22:6. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:10. (so we are all under a curse until redeemed). EX'ECRATE, verb transitive [Latin execror, from ex and sacer, the primary sense of which is to separate. See Sacred.] SA'CRED, adjective [Latin sacer, sacred holy, cursed,...The sense is removed or separated from that which is common,...public; and accursed is separated from society... In that sense, many clans thought of others as cursed. Some Hopi believe the Maya are "aberrant Hopi". The Hopi separated from them long ago. This wasn't racism. Today I would guess the Hopi view view the Maya as I do---wonderful people. And (from Wiki and the Rig Veda etc. and other non-LDS sources) and is not racist: "Anciently…'Religious conversion was described figuratively as a change in skin color. Similarly, the Rigveda uses krsna tvac "black skin" as a metaphor for irreligiosity.” Again, ancient related people used the same forms of speech and had the same ideas about skin color WITHIN THE SAME RACE- “Koestler (p. 22) "...it was customary…to refer to (some clans) as “white” and (other) clans as “black.”" Even though they were the same color." If you feel this is harmful then it may be that you view the world and ancient people from your own point of view, but not everyone thinks like you. Nephites always referred to Lamanites as their "brethren" and they expressed love for them. "Until marriage, young men painted themselves black (and so did warriors at all times); tattooing and decorative scarification began after wedlock, both men and women being richly elaborated from the waist up by these means."--The Maya, Michael D. Coe, p. 144. "The famous Bonampak murals depict human figures with bodies painted black. Figurines frequently show paint and face and body tattooing. The Spaniards eliminated this practice among the people by converting them to Christianity (or killing them). [Verneil W. Simmons, Peoples, Places, and Prophecies, p. 279] Nephites may have ALSO considered their "brethren"s' skin painting, or red dots, or suntans (from being "naked"), etc. to be a sign of the curse (it separated them) but that isn't related to race or today's Lamanites. The Insitute manual makes it clear that today's Lamanites are not cursed. The language usage shows that the BofM is an ancient book and they viewed In our terms they all had brown skin, in their symbolic terms those rebelling were not "washed white in the blood of the Lamb" (you'd think His blood would make them red, but it's symbolic, think about it please). They spoke of garments and skins made white through Christ, etc. The words appear to be used interchangeably. This is what the BofM says-- Alma 3 "...they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites; ... skin which was girded about their loins...6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark...7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them...the Amlicites...also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves...knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads; nevertheless they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them. 19 Now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the curse; and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation. Also, when Brigham Young was asked about your theory on people being less valiant in the pre-existance he said: “No, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in heaven..All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God. And, however you want to view it, we are all under a curse. All of humanity is fallen until they accept Christ who brings us back to our pure and delightsome pre-existent state. This is all of us, as Paul explains, all separated from God and our true selves.

[@joepeaceman9064]

And, in a Book of Mormon context (and so in a "Mormon" context), Lamanites are God's chosen people. Nephites were destroyed because they failed and became violent. Lamanites weren't destroyed because they were doing better and had a special mission. It doesn't really matter what you Gentiles think. There is overwhelming evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. This is what Jesus said to the people whose descendants would become "Lamanites". Please remember that they were all one people for a couple of hundred years. Lamanites after that were typically a religious or political party. If they intermarried then they all had the same skin color. They also probably had the same skin color before. "15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people (the Lamanites)-16 Then shall ye (Lamanites), who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest...21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel. 22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you." And, "I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity. And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore thy garments shall be made clean." A careful reading of the Book of Mormon leads me to believe that the word "garments" here, probably had the same meaning to Lehites and other ancient Americans (and other ancient cultures) as "skins". "Clean" was sometimes used interchangeably with "white" and pure. Joseph started to change some of these, but couldn't finish it. Garments and skins were washed white in the blood of Christ. They weren't really literally "black" or etc.

[@drshanebaker]

False, The evidence supporting a transmigration of early Americans from Siberia across the Bering land bridge is OVERWHELMING and includes DNA, relics, and archeology. Only a poorly educated BOM apologist would make such a disparaging strawman attack on the science.

[@VC_Home4Now]

This story was so moving that I was in tears. Sarah, your brown skin is gorgeous! Unfortunately, your mother's generation was subjected to unimaginable, genocidal treatment. She did the best she could. Somehow she survived, but she had to give up her identity. I hope that your grandma is in some wonderful heaven, still loving you, and dancing with abandon. Please write a book. People need to hear your story.

[@kiquito]

Instant crush! Sarah's awesome!

[@jamesmoss7919]

Great podcast John and Sarah. I am half Tahitian, but now I no longer believe that Tahitians are of Lamanite ancestry. I am sorry for having taught that message to hundreds of them during my mission. I agreed that the LDS Church is not honest or barely honest about this topic.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Hi James, please don't let John and others lead you from the tree of life. There is abundant evidence that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record and true. There is also now evidence that Native Americans AND Polynesians are related to peoples from the Middle East (especially Jews etc.). Joseph Smith could not have written the BofM and could not have introduced Middle Eastern Religion, DNA, etc, into the ancient Americas. He could not have known all of the details that he included in the book either. It is true, and it will change your life for the better to read it again and hold fast. : ) Hang tight my friend. This was a comment to SR but I thought you might enjoy-- "There is a growing body of evidence that Native Americans are descended from multiple migration groups and there is definitely a relationship between Native Americans and those who developed writing, civilization, etc. There is also evidence that Native Americans and peoples of the Middle East have common DNA, Religious, and other origins. If Sarah is related to Lehi or Jaredites, that is a happy and blessed thing. Dismissing that part of her lineage is dismissing family. It is now also clear that ancient cultures used terms about skin color, curses, etc. symbolically. I've posted evidence for that. Lehites (Lamanites and Nephites) were one race, and most likely all had brown skin and were not Black. Saying that they are hurting each other by using symbolic language (garments washed white, etc.) is like saying African Americans hurt everyone when they use terms such as "Black" or etc. The BofM makes it plain that the language is symbolic, as it is in the Bible. A curse is: 1828 Dictionary CURSED 1. Execrated; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:10. (so we are all under a curse until redeemed). EX'ECRATE, verb transitive [Latin execror, from ex and sacer, the primary sense of which is to separate. See Sacred.] SA'CRED, adjective [Latin sacer, sacred holy....The sense is removed or separated from that which is common,...public; and accursed is separated from society..." In that sense, many clans thought of others as cursed. Some Hopi believe the Maya are "aberrant Hopi". The Hopi separated from them long ago. This wasn't racism. Today I would guess the Hopi view the Maya as I do---wonderful people. LDS Sources- publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/24/JBMS-v24-Sproat.pdf He shows in this article that "skins of blackness" in the BofM refer to garments, possibly religious clothing. NON LDS sources- And (from Wiki and the Rig Veda etc. and other non-LDS sources "Anciently…'Religious conversion was described figuratively as a change in skin color. Similarly, the Rigveda uses krsna tvac "black skin" as a metaphor for irreligiosity.” Again, ancient related people used the same forms of speech and had the same ideas about skin color WITHIN THE SAME RACE- “Koestler (p. 22) "...it was customary…to refer to (some clans) as “white” and (other) clans as “black.”" Even though they were the same color." If you feel this is harmful then it may be that you view the world and ancient people from your own point of view, but not everyone thinks like you. Nephites always referred to Lamanites as their "brethren" and they expressed love for them. "Until marriage, young men painted themselves black (and so did warriors at all times); tattooing and decorative scarification began after wedlock, both men and women being richly elaborated from the waist up by these means."--The Maya, Michael D. Coe, p. 144. "The famous Bonampak murals depict human figures with bodies painted black. Figurines frequently show paint and face and body tattooing. The Spaniards eliminated this practice among the people by converting them to Christianity (or killing them). [Verneil W. Simmons, Peoples, Places, and Prophecies, p. 279] Nephites may have ALSO considered their "brethren"s' skin painting, or red dots, or suntans (from being "naked"), etc. to be a sign of the curse (it separated them) but that isn't related to race or today's Lamanites. The Insitute manual makes it clear that today's Lamanites are not cursed. The language usage shows that the BofM is an ancient book and they viewed In our terms they all had brown skin, in their symbolic terms those rebelling were not "washed white in the blood of the Lamb" (you'd think His blood would make them red, but it's symbolic, think about it please). They spoke of garments and skins made white through Christ, etc. The words appear to be used interchangeably. This is what the BofM says-- Alma 3 "...they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites; ... skin which was girded about their loins...6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark...7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them...the Amlicites...also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves...knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads; nevertheless they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them. 19 Now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the curse; and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation. Also, when Brigham Young was asked about your theory on people being less valiant in the pre-existance he said: “No, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in heaven..All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God. And, however you want to view it, we are all under a curse. All of humanity is fallen until they accept Christ who brings us back to our pure and delightsome pre-existent state. This is all of us, as Paul explains, all separated from God and our true selves.

[@jamesmoss7919]

Well Joe, it seems like you keep repeating yourself to everyone here. Obviously you have a strong opinion about the BofM. Well good for you. We'll have to agree to disagree. I now believe that the BofM is a fairy tale full of plagiarism. Have you compared it to View of the Hebrews, and The Late War, not to mentioned mistranslated of the KJV 1611 version found in the BofM. Those were his sources. How about the fact that the supposed plates were often not even in the same room as JS ,or even in the house at all during the "translation?" Why have "plates" if you're not even going to use them? Oh, and let's not forget that he used a rock in a hat. The very same rock that he used as a scryer to find buried treasure. Oh and guess what, no treasure was ever found. There were no gold plates. Anyway, you can be set in your belief, which is fine. The pain that I feel goes beyond the BofM. The Book of Abraham is another big one. Not to mention Polyandry (marrying other men's wives while they were away on missions), and all this behind Emma's back. And, lying to the world and the body of the Church about it What a shame!!! The saying "the truth hurts" is true. The LDS Church is man made just like the rest of the religions. But, it's okay, I will adapt. Enough said. Peace out.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Hi James, I repeat because so many have been given the same misinformation. I'm glad you are open minded enough to be civil :). It's uncommon, sadly. There is overwhelming evidence that the BofM is an ancient text and it is full of things that JS could not have known. I've read much of "View of the Hebrews". Ethan of course saw relationships between Native Americans and peoples of the Middle East because those relationships clearly exist (including DNA, Religion, Culture, etc.) but View is clearly not a source for the BofM. Look at FAIRMormon View of the Hebrews for some information and comparisons etc. And, also on The Late War here is a bit of several long articles from FAIRMormon "Seventy-five of the parallels identified as significant between the two texts came from the Copyright statement. Why? Because the copyright statement was a fill-in-the-blank form. It had a certain set of language that was standardized for the period. So books copyrighted in the same general area at the same general time, such at The Late War and the Book of Mormon, would have nearly identical copyright statements. And this study found 75 parallels between the two. This shouldn't surprise us, because of course, both books had copyright statements that were reliant on a common source. And we can see from this dense material that there is a relationship between the two. But anyone who actually looks at the texts will also see that this has nothing to do with what might be termed the creative content in each work. Most of the similarities occur simply because both The Late War and the Book of Mormon use the language of the King James Bible..." They were not his sources, and if you're looking for reasons to doubt I think it's better to just say that you don't believe or want to drink beer or something. I respect that, but anti-mormonism is a walk on the dark and shallow side.... You're a great person with a great heritage, hold fast. There is no need for pain or John's therapy (offered to those he leads away), stay by the Tree of Life and you will feel that peace....it's not too late. The chains aren't there. You can choose liberty. There is also abundant evidence that the plates were real. Looking at them was looking at reformed Egyptian. One of their purposes was clearly to verify their existence. Joseph often, but not always, used the hat to block the cross-light. This helped avoid eyestrain. This also adds support to his story (with hundreds of other details). It's even more impossible to pull the BofM out of a hat--no manuscript, hundreds of legitimate ancient names (1 e.g. Laman, a name common in the Middle East and, now we know it was a Mayan name (the City Laman ain for example), places, symbols, details, geography, former anachronisms, etc. etc. etc. . He used the stones from the Nephite "interpreters" when he could and his personal seer stone when he had to. This is taught in primary. Critics call it "scrying" because that makes it seem freaky but it's no different than Joseph using a cup to "divine" dreams in Egypt (as the Bible says). It was part of Joseph Smith's culture and the Lord generally works within one's culture. No problem there for me, they talk about the multiple stones in primary. I know that several of the so called "mistranslations" are not really. If the others are real, going with Occam's Razor, it is most likely a case of "studying it out" and rendering reformed Egyptian phrases in the language Joseph was familiar with. Again, there is abundant evidence that the BofM is ancient and impossible for Joseph to have created for himself.

[@joepeaceman9064]

The BofA is also miraculous. If you'd like to discuss it please ask specific questions. I'd love to talk if you are open. Emma clearly knew about polygamy and supported it at times. She was probably the first to know that it would be part of the restoration. Oliver was probably next, and he rushed in without direction. Prophets learn line upon line and the early Saints had this idea about "sealing". Men were sealed to men as sons and women as "wives" but there was no sexual relationship in what has come to be called "eternity only" sealing. Polyandry was a way for Joseph to keep what he felt was a commandment without sexual relations. This was probably all Emma would approve of at the time (after she changed her mind about Fanny). If we are to judge them for that, we should at least hear the voices of those involved, especially the women and we should also be fair and condemn the rest of humanity, since polygamy was traditional marriage for 1000s of years. We should condemn Jesus because he is the product of polygamy. We should condemn his ancestor David for marrying a 14 year old girl when he was 70 because he was impotent. I don't judge them, they lived in different times. But, if you are to judge, at least, please, listen to the voices of his "wives". When I examine the evidence on polygamy (or any other Gospel History topic) I think it helps me see it more as it probably was. And, the more I know of the details, the brighter things become (polygamy is mainly bright for them ;). The stories of Joseph sending people on missions so he could steal their wives are just more hate promoting rumors from our anti-mormon friends. For the early Saints polygamy was an important part of the restoration. .... this is what Joseph's youngest "wife" had to say--- Helen Mar Kimball: "If Joseph had had any impure desires he could have gratified them in the style of the world with less danger of his life or his character, than to do as he did. The Lord commanded him to teach & to practice that principle." -Helen Mar Kimball Whitney "Joseph Smith's Polygamy: History" As non-Mormon church historian Ernst Benz wrote: "Mormon polygamy has nothing to do with sexual debauchery but is tied to a strict patriarchal system of family order and demonstrates in the relationship of the husband to his individual wives all the ethical traits of a Christian, monogamous marriage...Actually, it exhibits a very great measure of selflessness, a willingness to sacrifice, and a sense of duty. [4] Like Abishag, Mary, etc. the girls weren't really that young by 19th Century standards and Helen makes it pretty clear that their relationship was for eternity only, and didn't involve sex, as most of Joseph's "marriages" didn't. Critics try to make it look like Joseph was a pedophile (e.g. they had a quote from Helen on Wiki, she was actually complaining about her Dad not letting her go somewhere, and she said she felt like an abused child, the critics pull it out of context and pretend she was talking about Joseph abusing her or something...cray cray). Helen "...no one but myself is responsible for my actions." "Mormon’ women are neither slaves nor toys. .. we are not so ignorant of matters pertaining to the women of the world as they appear to be concerning us, and this religion called ‘Mormonism’-a religion which we have espoused and cling to because we love its principles, which require all to live godly in Christ Jesus and keep themselves pure and unspotted from the world, the angels will bear witness...I am a stronger advocate of ...the celestial order of marriage, and rejoice more exceedingly in the goodness of God to me and my house....“From childhood I have loved this land of liberty, and prided myself in the knowledge that I was descended from those who helped to gain the independence of my country, ...But what a sham it has become in the hands of religious bigots and godless politicians who have borne rule...Could those who look down upon plural wives and cast a stigma upon them and their offspring... and..."The noblest men and women, anciently, the most highly favored of God, were the founders on this earth of the patriarchal order of marriage. Our Savior, and all the sons of Israel sprang from it-the twelve tribes chosen of God....’ “Our pious Christian friends evidently ignore these facts, and are striving independently of scripture, reason or the dictates of humanity, to solve the so-called ‘Mormon problem.’ Our women and children are being harassed by day and by night. They are brought before courts and grand juries and shamefully insulted, and are compelled, under threats of imprisonment, to answer indecent questions, questions ...the climax of tyranny and cruelty...like sheep going to the slaughter. These, we suppose, are among the charitable acts of sisterly love which some of the Christian ladies ...have lent their assistance in promoting. We look upon them with pity, and upon all who tamely submit to become the tools and implements..." Again, the evidence indicates that Emma did know about it, probably from the beginning, and did support polygamy and, that she, like Sarah of old, changed her mind back and forth. This is understandable and it put Joseph in a difficult situation. If he sometimes hid things it was probably for several reasons including: to saves lives, sealing became a sacred part of the temple, to protect others, etc. He taught it up front many times and ran into all kinds of issues. His first marriage to Fanny was a very public issue. People all over the world knew about it after not long. Remember that Joseph believed polygamy was of God, and understood that sealing was required for exaltation. They didn't understand everything as we do, but he made covenants with women who chose to marry him. When we think compassionately about polygamy we think first of Emma and Joseph, but we often forget the other lives involved. For example, you probably know that Emma picked Eliza and Emily Partridge to be polygamous wives to Joseph, then changed her mind later and asked Joseph to forget the covenants he had made. Again, from Emma's viewpoint it's understandable "Emma selected Emily and Eliza (to marry Joseph)....Emily remembers: “We remained in the family several months after this...She sent for us one day to come to her room. Joseph was present, looking like a martyr. Emma said some very hard things ...Joseph came to us...all was ended between us...' Joseph arranged for Emily and Eliza to move out of the Smith home. Emily wrote, “I do not remember [speaking to] Joseph but once...after I left the Mansion house and that was just before he started for Carthage." Joseph was not lustful and we now know that the anti-mormon claims about his children etc. with polyandrous and polygamous wives are false. Emma loved him and he loved her, in spite of the difficulty they were in and the issues they sometimes had. She called him her husband up until her death (even while married to someone else) and she also testified that the BofM was true until her death. She felt and saw and helped. He didn't write it. No one in the 19th Century did.

[@joepeaceman9064]

As I said, you have a noble heritage. Critics like John are trying to pull you from the Tree of Life and from that deep joy that can come from partaking of the fruit. They want you to focus on little things, diversions such as: stones and hats and etc. But the real questions are: did Jesus appear to people in ancient America? Did they leave a record? etc. The evidence shows that He did, and they did. If you seek you will find. Ask specific questions. I'm here if you need me. Enough said : ) Peace in and out man :). Luv ya.

[@robpaulson7992]

Thank you Sarah.

[@lizziespies6847]

Beautiful woman. I love what you have shared. A joy to watch!!!

[@joepeaceman9064]

She is a beautiful person but the story is sad. Sarah has misunderstood so many things and it may be that John Dehlin exploits those misunderstandings for gain rather than attempting to increase understanding and love. I feel like his followers should question him more. There is evidence that staying active in the Church increases happiness. Why lead us from that? There is also abundant evidence showing that the BofM is an ancient book written by a group of Native Americans who had brown skin. There is no racism, they used symbolic language. This may be an important part of Sarah's heritage, and I think it's good for her to be aware of all truth.

[@swamibubba]

being part n/a myself this really makes me angry but what about mormons doesn't these days anyway thanks love and blessings!

[@michaelsanfrancisco757]

Don't think God says: "The way of the Righteousness is using sun screen"

[@kevinconley1969]

Dark skin is beautiful.

[@SLFlyinghorse]

exmormon here. the church is racist, it is racism / discouraging mixed marriages that drove me away.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Hi Samuel. I don't think the Church is racist. Some people might be, but my Black/Native American family members have never felt discriminated against by Mormons....only by others. And, while the Church still explains that it's easier to marry within our own social, economic, racial, etc. group, from my experience, interracial marriages are no more frowned upon than marrying a rich guy. My Ward has many interracial couples (in fact most are) and they include my last Bishop, Relief Society President, etc. Hope you have a great day and don't let John trick you out of your blessings or lead you from the good path to the tree of life.

[@joepeaceman9064]

And, please don't let anyone lead you from the tree of life. Be true to yourself, and what you know. All are invited to partake of the Tree of Life but the Church won't be accepted by everyone and that is expected. Still, John, Packaham, and other Gentiles don't have our best interest at heart. I quit believing them. I've caught them being dishonest many times. Now I know that there is abundant evidence that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record and true. There is also now evidence that Native Americans came to the Americas in multiple migrations, and some of those ancestors are definitely related to peoples from the Middle East. Native Americans Joseph Smith could not have written the BofM and could not have introduced this detailed Religion, DNA, etc, into the ancient Americas. He couldn't have known all of the details that he included in the book either. : ) I think that's awesome. The BofM is a sacred an honorable heritage. This was a comment to SR Reiley (ex mormon like you, but he seemed hateful....you don't) I hope it clarifies some things-- "There is definitely a relationship between Native Americans and those who developed writing, civilization, etc. There is also evidence that Native Americans and peoples of the Middle East have common DNA, Religious, and other origins. If Sarah is related to Lehi or Jaredites, that is a happy and blessed thing. Dismissing that part of her lineage is dismissing family. It is now also clear that ancient cultures used terms about skin color, curses, etc. symbolically. I've posted evidence for that. Lehites (Lamanites and Nephites) were one race, and most likely all had brown skin and were not Black (even before any intermarriages---Joseph was Middle Eastern and his wife was Egyptian). Saying that they are hurting each other by using symbolic language (garments washed white, etc.) is like saying African Americans hurt when they use terms such as "Black" or etc. The BofM makes it plain that the language is symbolic, as it is in the Bible. A curse is: 1828 Dictionary CURSED 1. Execrated; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:10. (so we are all under a curse until redeemed). EX'ECRATE, verb transitive [Latin execror, from ex and sacer, the primary sense of which is to separate. See Sacred.] SA'CRED, adjective [Latin sacer, sacred holy....The sense is removed or separated from that which is common,...public; and accursed is separated from society..." In that sense, many clans thought of others as cursed. Some Hopi believe the Maya are "aberrant Hopi". The Hopi separated from them long ago. This wasn't racism. Today I would guess the Hopi view the Maya as I do---wonderful people. LDS Sources- publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/24/JBMS-v24-Sproat.pdf He shows in this article that "skins of blackness" in the BofM refer to garments, possibly religious clothing. NON LDS sources- And (from Wiki and the Rig Veda etc. and other non-LDS sources "Anciently…'Religious conversion was described figuratively as a change in skin color. Similarly, the Rigveda uses krsna tvac "black skin" as a metaphor for irreligiosity.” Again, ancient related people used the same forms of speech and had the same ideas about skin color WITHIN THE SAME RACE- “Koestler (p. 22) "...it was customary…to refer to (some clans) as “white” and (other) clans as “black.”" Even though they were the same color." Nephites always referred to Lamanites as their "brethren" and they expressed love for them. Lamanite culture was preserved but Nephite culture,, sadly, was not. Nephites became violent and took on the darkness. The so called scales of darkness fell long ago. Some people may have misunderstood, but Lamanites were preserved because they were more righteous and were thus given a special mission. "Until marriage, young men painted themselves black (and so did warriors at all times); tattooing and decorative scarification began after wedlock, both men and women being richly elaborated from the waist up by these means."--The Maya, Michael D. Coe, p. 144. "The famous Bonampak murals depict human figures with bodies painted black. Figurines frequently show paint and face and body tattooing. The Spaniards eliminated this practice among the people by converting them to Christianity (or killing them). [Verneil W. Simmons, Peoples, Places, and Prophecies, p. 279] Nephites may have ALSO considered their "brethren"s' skin painting, or red dots, etc. to be a sign of the curse (it separated them) but that isn't related to race or today's Lamanites. The Institute manual makes it clear that today's Lamanites are not cursed. All Native Americans probably had brown skin. The Book of Mormon tells stories where Lamanites couldn't tell Nephites from Lamanites. Nephites found a Nephite Lamanite who went with them and the Lamanites thought they were all Nephites as soon as the Lamanite spoke. This shows they all looked the similar back then, as now. In their symbolic terms those rebelling were not "washed white in the blood of the Lamb" (you'd think His blood would make them red, but it's symbolic, think about it please). They spoke of garments and skins made white through Christ, etc. The words appear to be used interchangeably. This is what the BofM says-- Alma 3 "...they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites; ... skin which was girded about their loins...6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark...7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed...the Amlicites...also had a mark set upon them; ...knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads...they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them. We are all under a curse. All of humanity is fallen until they accept Christ who brings us back to our pure and delightsome pre-existent state. This is all of us, as Paul explains, all separated from God and our true selves.

[@SLFlyinghorse]

if you or anyone wishes to address me continuous, my temple name is "Abel". call me Abel, instead of Samuel. Yes the church is racist. I've experienced it, nuff said. I moved on to better things.

[@joepeaceman9064]

My friend, one of the great things about life is that we are all free to choose. We choose what to see, what to believe, and whether or not we wish to stand at the Tree of Life, regardless of what anyone else does or says. The Church is the People. You used to be one of those people. I am one of those people. Most of us are brown skinned people. Most of those brown skinned people have Native American blood. Most of those Native Americans are descended, in part, from Lehi. Many show a DNA relationship to peoples of the Middle East. It’s sad for me that you wish to walk from your path to the Tree of Life. There will be racist people among us, but we, generally speaking, are not racist, and are among the least bigoted of peoples. We each have our own perceptions. My niece was shopping with a non-mormon cousin and this white lady moved her children out of their way. My niece saw it as a kindness, her cousin saw it as racism. I don’t doubt that you have met racist people among the Mormons, but the BofM teaches that Native Americans have a special leading role in the Americas and Christ refers to descendants of Lehi as “my people” and contrasts them to “Gentiles”. Moroni prays for his “brethren” the Lamanites, that he “loves” and the Lord grants his prayers. He prays for the Gentiles and you know what the answer is-“…it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful;”. Believing the BofM is part of being Mormon. If there is any racism in the book, it is in favor of Native Americans. Doesn’t matter what anyone else says or does.

[@joepeaceman9064]

“…it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore thy garments shall be made clean (or white like Christ who probably had brown skin and may be related to us). And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. And now I . . . bid farewell unto the Gentiles; yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.” (Blood turns the skins/garments black…) Those are the facts, you choose…..luv ya…..nuff said.

[@carlitos2012ace]

actually she has a beautiful skin tone I would say! :-)

[@joepeaceman9064]

Yes, I think any sensible person would agree with that. I'm sure that, as she puts her faith in Christ, Book of Mormon peoples would have considered her to be washed white in the blood of Christ. These are symbolic terms used by ancient cultures, all who had brown or olive skin and didn't have our issues. It's sad that Sarah has misunderstood so many things AND tragic that people like John Dehlin exploit those misunderstandings for gain and don't even attempt to increase understanding and love. I feel like he is a man with far too much power and his followers rarely question him.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Well, hmmm, ok then, if you would be so kind, let's start by burying me with paper showing how the Book of Mormon is racist. And, while you're busy at that, you should try reading the BofM. It really helped me overcome my bitterness towards Christianity. It also helped me come to understand the noble mission of my Native American family members and their relationship to the Gentiles. : ) Love ya my friend, thanks in advance for enlightening us all with your beliefs. : )

[@geraldjampol3120]

According to the BoM, Native Americans are not delightsome. It's a silly term but what can you expect from a con man like Joseph Smith.

[@johnhanson9450]

Thanks for sharing. Take time to smell the coffee.

[@erictam7129]

I feel sick when church always claims it is the only true church on earth and look down on other religion and believer. This is not the teaching and belief of Jesus.

[@communistsharks6889]

it's so insidious how the church has contributed and continues to contribute to the ongoing g*nocide of Indigenous peoples. just absolutely heartbreaking that they think they have the right to tell a group that their heritage is a) shameful and b) false. it truly is an evil arm of colonization and extermination.

[@JBJones66]

Where can I find the essays and which ones are the juicy ones haha

[@guyphawkes]

I got into a discussion with a bunch of Polynesians about this. They all went off on how foolish I was for leaving, because of SCIENCE. "I am a Lamanite, descended of Hagoth, from Nephi" etc. They kept thinking they were making fun of me over this very issue. I explained that the whole DNA statement failed, miserably, what the church thought was their silver bullet, turned out to be the smoking gun. They went quiet after a few days of mockery, and then finding.. Oh, wait, the church cant prove it anymore. It was when I haded them the Isaiah quandary, and then it was a loud ass chorus of Crickets. Im glad that the truth brought her to self acceptance. BUT, my friends from her nation, are usually exceptionally tall, like the 6 foot dude is the runt. Great people ...

[@joepeaceman9064]

I hope you'll look further into truth with an honest heart. The evidence shows that the BofM is an ancient book. There is an undeniable connection (including DNA, religion, culture, etc.) between Native Americans, Polynesians, and ancient people of the Middle East. I hope that you didn't lead any of my wonderful Polynesian cousins astray but I think that, being a lover of truth, you will find them and apologize, since the evidence also indicates that being active in the LDS Church does much good.

[@joepeaceman9064]

I'm not lying, and if I've made a mistake in this, kindly point it out :). There are no nails in the BofM coffin : ). DNA is going the way of all the rest. Some critics still put their faith in it, and that's ok, if you must. Here is what I said--- "John and other scholars seem swayed by every wind of doctrine, except the truth. Some real scholars are more humble: Dr. Judith Habicht-Mauch says: "We dont know how people got to the New World, when, or who they were, Those questions are very much up for grabs right now and very controversial" & Owsley says: "The whole model for the peopling of the Americas is in flux, it's up in the air." Here are some quotes that I hope you will read and think about. As far as I know none of them are from LDS scholars (some LDS agree, but John would tell you not to trust a Mormon, but if we only trust the critics, or those in the spacious building, we aren't really being open or honest....I think you are open and honest, and just need info: Q-P36 founding lineage among Ashkenazi Jewish populations, Iranian and Iraqi Jews, and is a founding lineage group present in 31% of self-identified Native Americans, also found in Yemenite Jews. D Garrigan, ME Kaplan, et al MF Hammer, AJ Wood, ET Wood, et al VF Chamberlain, VF Kearney Dienekes (2004) also wrote that he found the continued silence of researchers about the presence of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazim “puzzling.” (Q is one more common Native American marker). R-M173& is the most common haplogroup after the various Q-M242 in Native Americans (Malhi 2008) Haplogroup R-M173 found in the Near East and Native Americans Low frequencies in Siberia Kayser "Great Surprise"-Native Americans Have…DNA…remains revealed genes found today in western Eurasians in the Middle East … but no evidence of any relation to modern East Asians. ..Why is it important? Prevailing theories suggest that Native Americans are descended from a group of East Asians who crossed the Bering Sea via a land bridge perhaps 16,500…This study changes this idea…it's changing quite a bit of the history."” National Geographic Haplogroup R-M17..elevated levels..Israeli..Behar reported R-M17..in ..Levites 52% Passarino G, Semino O & Magri C et al. Q-M242…found in approximately 94% of South America Bortolini, M&co. in Na-Dene..50%, and North American..46% Salzano, F&co. Q-M242 men in Jewish Diaspora populations belong. Adams, Bosch&co. In conclusion, it appears that some....Native Americans and Ashkenazi Jews-may share common ancestors…(Zegura et al. 2004). Haplogroup R1 (Y-DNA) is the second most predominant Y haplotype found among indigenous Amerindians after Q (Y-DNA). González Burchard,& CO. subsequent research has confirmed that R1a1 alone comprises nearly 12% of the Ashkenazi gene pool, it now appears that Behar’s estimate is much too low. Additionally, Behar’s (2004b, Supplementary Material) own data indicate that haplogroups R1b, R1a and I comprise more than a quarter of Ashkenazi DNA results. (50% of Levite) Native American DNA: 3 types n C-M217 Q-M242 R1“R1- The origins of R-M173 remain unclear” This relative absence of haplogroup X2 in Asia is one of the major factors causing the current rethinking of the peopling of the Americas..very beginning of their expansion and spread from the Near East Am J Hum Gene&co. Also, in this 2009 study by: Perez, Bernal, Paula N. Gonzalez, Marina Sardi, Gustavo G. Politis they discuss that: “one of the major debates about the American peopling focuses on the number of populations..craniometric variation in American human remains…Amerindians have a mongoloid craniofacial shape, while Paleoamericans have a generalized morphology. ..worldwide populations…aborigines do not present the typical morphology of North East Asia… Specifically, “the American groups are more apt to join Europeans than Asiatics”.. South American groups have not specific mongoloid craniofacial traits. &Perez & Co. in discussing that Native Americans do not have Asian morphology, explained that “.. low values of genetic exchange between local and “invading” populations can result in a major contribution of local neutral genes into the invader gene pool, and almost exclusively in this direction.” What this means is, when Lehi did come to America, even a few interactions (& the BofM describes millions of people here before Lehi came) & a FEW interactions would result in the new arrivals (Lehites) absorbing local population DNA, but still DNA shows that Levites, Jews, & Native Americans are related.

[@jeremycloward9612]

So, just like the Apologist, flood the page with USELESS facts, that dance around the idea, muddy the waters, and go on to say, "with SO MUCH data, its clear that" and not actually give any solid evidence to the point. My reading of all of this, and looking into the things you posted, all youve been able to say is that, uh... well, the Asian dna as supposedly thought to be the main thread of the people in the Americas, is not as high as we thought. Still, an absolute absence of ANY ANY Jewish or middle eastern DNA to have crossed into the native americans, except for the Iberian-americans from Spain, Portuga, etc, that had the Jewish blood in them from the Diaspora. NOT from Lehi. As I poked around a little more and read up on the references, while all you did was cut and paste the Apologist bullshit. If they can prove that Neanderthals mixed with Cro-Magnon 25,000 years ago from DNA present in HUMANS, and still cant find a shred of the idea that the native americans are the widespread descendants of a colony of jews crossed over 2600 years ago, you standing there without a leg to piss down. It would be present in an unmistakable, and vast amount of the population of native americans. Instead, they are grasping at straws still not actually able to say anything. If you want to know the nail in the coffin, answer, with a single and clear answer the Isaiah Quandary, without apologist garbage, no fluff, no trying to convince me that if we believed the earth is still flat, you can see if how the sun rises on thursdays in Panama, bounce the light off the pendant of Pinochet, you can prove to me that the Dinosaurs did in fact play baseball in Cleveland after all. OR, are you going to keep saying that just because you stuck feathers up your butt, you have proved yourself to be a chicken.

[@joepeaceman9064]

On my phone so briefly: I notice that anti-Mormonism is founded on several things, including diverting and especially presumption. I try to keep an open mind so I might avoid falling. I notice Jeremy assumes there is "an absolute absence of ANY ANY Jewish or middle eastern DNA to have crossed into the native americans, except for the Iberian-americans from Spain, Portuga, etc, that had the Jewish blood in them from the Diaspora." But, Jeremy, please remember that you don't have to believe Dehlin and Co. You should thoughtfully and patiently question them. It is the way to truth. One thing o notice when I "poke around" is that there is a lot of disagreement. But, if you go deeply into real science you might see that the relationship between Native Americans and peoples of the Middle East most likely predates European contact. And the DNA is in as many as 1/3 to 1/2 of Native Americans and scholars don't know when or how it got there. This in no way eliminates Lehi as a contributor.

[@jeremycloward9612]

Uh huh, how is anything that you wrote, sorry, copy and pasted from the articles prove or even suggest any of that? I went through it, and all I got that was actually scientific was to say that there was less asian dna in the native americans than expected. No real science used in any of the fluff you pasted in there suggests that I "Might" see the relationship between the native americans, and the middle east predates the Iberia-americans. BUT, back to your original arrogant statement of Jacques needing to apologise to the Polynesians about trashing thier whole argument of being the descendants of Hagoth and all that garbage. Did you read what he actually said and why he ended up trashing those idiots? How about you ? He pointed out the Isaiah Quandary, you know, using SCIENCE, and that was his original point. Nothing to so with all of this. Use the Isaiah quandary, then you never get to this argument of were there really nephites, and jewish descendants in the americas, as the book suggests. There cant possibly be if the whole book of mormon is bullshit, and not a historical arte-fact, why bother to keep trying to make someone believe that the Dinosaurs did in fact play baseball in Cleveland. If you say anti-mormonism is based on presumption, you are doing the same thing, presuming that the book of mormon is solid. Just like the muslims take everything in islam to be true, because "Well, the Quran says this". Well, you ever think the book might be wrong, made up, and bullshit, nothing more than a tool of some malignant narcissist, religious genius who thought he could cement his name in history by inventing some religious movement? Pull doctrine out of it, and you have Mormonism a less violent version of islam, otherwise the two founders did the same things. Again, Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken, the articles you provided did NOTHING to solidify your argument.

[@llt8101]

In Canada the terms for Indigenous people are First Nations, Indigenous or the name of their Tribe.

[@sergioochoa9598]

according to the story The Golden Plates were buried under the rock for over a thousand years my question is what will happen to a rock on a period of Thousand Years? and also where is the concrete container where the place where found? in my opinion that would have been a great archaeological treasure! what happened to this concrete container?

[@maxwellsilverhammer9233]

Like the golden plates, there was never a concrete container. The BoM myth has been busted.

[@joepeaceman9064]

There were many witnesses who testified that the plates were real and the box was there for quite a while and seen by those who went to the spot. After it was uncovered it was eventually taken by a non-mormon family. However, the most important evidence for the plates is the BofM. You can freely examine it and feel the light.

[@deskjockie4948]

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy is real too, I can freely examine it and feel it. Does that make it true?

[@siduri03rob]

I guess I'm a weird white woman but I've always wished my skin would stay the color of my darkest suntan. I wished my hair was black and my eyes were a rich brown, especially in my younger years. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@exjwborn-in2134]

❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@42apostate]

Men are that they might have joy...but not for women...apparently....until they hit the exit.

[@zelphx]

What are you looking at?

[@laurieudall4159]

What a beautiful woman Sarah is. However, I feel very sorry for her that she has left the church. In my ward there's a beautiful couple where the woman is caucasian and the man is lamanite. They have a wonderful family and are very strong in the church. They don't have any of these feelings that have been expressed here, and totally embrace the gospel The ward members love this family and totally accept them. But is Sarah is happier this way, then I'm happy for her.

[@pepesalvatore5401]

Laurie Udall lol lamanite never existed Those names lamanites nefites lehi moroni are 100% fiction , the names were fabricated by con man joe smith the devil prophet

[@kmills1231]

Lamanites never existed. Joseph smith made it up

[@joepeaceman9064]

You're a wonderful person Sarah. It's really sad for me to view this and wonder if you left the Church without ever really understanding the Book of Mormon. The CES letter is not honest. Ancient cultures often used terms such as "skins of darkness" to refer to religiosity, some clans referred to others as "black" even though their skins were all brown and all looked the same. There are no racist teachings in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith most likely translated the ancient terms directly, and then, realizing people might misunderstand, he began changing "white" to "light" and so on. Many of these changes were not completed before he was murdered by those who were led to hate. Lamanites and Nephites were one race and one family, descended from Joseph and his Egyptian wife (thus Ephraim and Manasseh were both half Egyptian ("Asiatic" or African, etc. depending on the period) AND others. Nephites most likely married in with others who were already here also. If you read the book carefully, you find that Nephites couldn't tell Lamanites by their skin color. If you were a member of the Church you technically were a Nephite. White people who want to live in the Americas will have to be adopted into the family of Lehi and, before that, they are "gentiles" without charity. The Book of Mormon is full of Native American and Middle Eastern symbolism and culture and so on, which was unknown to Joseph Smith. The Nephites were the ones who were destroyed for violence and so on. Lamanites are still here for a reason and many Naive Americans are now known to be related to Jews and others in the Middle East by DNA. These are not white people. Jesus was not Irish. John preaches with a smile, but, so far, he won't talk to me or others who question his doubts. Jesus is real, and He has established His Church in these days, and He has given us the Book of Mormon to testify of Him. It states specifically that it is written for the Lamanites first. The Nephites failed, except in their history written to us, to bring us to Christ, and from us to all the earth.

[@maxwellsilverhammer9233]

Joe, you are a spreading lies of a demonic church. Mormon history testifies to its hatred of non-white and "delightsome" people. Shame on LDS.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Huleo, I'm sure you are a wonderful person and it's very sad when people stir bigotry towards LDS with anti-mormonism. it's a good idea to always question people who teach you things that stir feelings of anger inside. We know that this world needs a lot more love. Mormons are mostly non-white, and have always been among the least bigoted of peoples. In times past we were hated for teaching equality, now hate groups pretend that we are racists and white supremacists. We are Christians, and we teach love. As I explained, the BofM was written by a group of Native Americans who were descended from a Middle Eastern guy named Joseph and his Egyptian wife. They were not white in our modern terms. They spoke of being washed white in the blood of the lamb and seem to have used terms such as "skins' and "garments" interchangeably. Thus garments were made white like the lamb of God and skins were made white etc. It's clearly symbolic if you read the book as the ancient record that it is (and there is overwhelming evidence for that).

[@maxwellsilverhammer9233]

Nothing more than LDS propaganda - do you have any legitimate sources?

[@joepeaceman9064]

Hmmm, SR seems to jump to conclusions quickly. I hope you are not the same. Many of the quotes can be found on blackLDS.org, but they are Mormons and you may have been taught that we are all liars. We really aren't though. The quotes by Joseph Smith and other LDS are mostly found in LDS sources but can often be found in more open non-LDS sources. I'll give you some non Mormon and anti-mormon sources, just in case that is all you will believe in, and then let me know if you want more, or what you want on the rest. I hope you are open enough to learn and change your point of view. Perhaps you are an honorable person who has been blinded by the craftiness of men, maybe not. : ) Love ya.... hope you have love, too.

[@joepeaceman9064]

Non-Mormon sources- "...well acquainted with the Mormons, or Mormonites...The founder of the sect (Smith) had published what he called his seal... The members of the society live in common ; and their intercourse with one another is characterised by equality and harmony. They have some excellent preachers among them; and are the most moral well-behaved people my informant ever knew. They maintain that the Indian tribes will finally recover their lands, and the blacks gain the ascendancy over the whites. Their practice corresponds with their principles; and no invidious distinctions are allowed to humiliate one portion of the community and elevate the other. In such opinions and habits it is easy to perceive the causes of that hatred and hostility by which they have been assailed. Having settled, in Jackson county, in the State of Missouri, and invited the free people of color to join them, they were attacked by an armed band ... driven into the woods, with their women and children. The next day, another settlement, about ten miles off from the former, suffered a similar fate: - the shops were plundered, and the houses broken into. ... carried before a magistrate, who refused to take cognizance of the affair. ... the mob declaring that they should never come out alive. ...accused the settlers of having opened an asylum for rogues and vagabonds, and free blacks. As I evinced a considerable degree of interest about these singular people, and expressed a wish to visit them, the talkative old man fancied I wanted to join them, and become a preacher. " What could he want," said he, "with the colored people? Did he come all the way from England to see them? I'm sure he's a real gentleman from his dress and manner. His skin was quite white. Why, Nelly," (turning to a young woman who was present,) "his complexion was much fairer than yours. I'd give any thing to know his name." Equality - www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/gu1852/abdy.htm "...As the promulgators of this extraordinary legend maintain the natural equality of mankind, without excepting the native Indians or the African race, there is little reason to be surprised at the cruel persecution by which they have suffered, an Manifesto of the mob-- books.google.com/books?id=Zlk96C4IH5sC We, the undersigned, citizens Jackson County, believing that an important crisis is at hand, as regards our civil society, in consequence a pretended religious sect of people that have settled, and are still settling in our County, styling themselves "Mormons;" ...It is more than two years since the first of these fanatics, or knaves, (for one or the other they undoubtedly are) made their first appearance among us, and pretended as they did,...to receive communications and revelations direct from heaven; to heal the sick by laying on hands; and, in short, to perform all the wonder-working miracles wrought by the inspired Apostles and Prophets of old. We believe them deluded fanatics... In a late number of theStar, published in Independence by the leaders of the sect, there is an article inviting free Negroes and mulattoes from other states to become "Mormons," and remove and settle among us. This exhibits them in still more odious colors. It manifests a desire on the part of their society, to inflict on our society an injury that they know would be to us entirely insupportable, and one of the surest means of driving us from the country; for it would require none of the supernatural gifts that they pretend to, to see that the introduction of such a caste among us would corrupt our blacks, and instigate them to bloodshed. They openly blaspheme the Most High God, and cast contempt on His holy religion, by pretending to receive revelations direct from heaven, by pretending to speak unknown tongues, by direct inspiration, and by diverse pretenses derogatory to God and religion, and to the utter subversion of human reason. ...in fine, they have conducted themselves on many other occasions, and such a manner, that we believe it a duty we owe to ourselves, our wives, and children, to the cause of public morals, to remove them from among us, as we are not prepared to give up our pleasant places and goodly possessions to them or to receive into the bosom of our families, as fit companions for wives and daughters, the degraded and corrupted free Negroes and mulattos that are now invited to settle among us. ALBANY EVENING JOURNAL. Vol. I. Albany, N.Y., Wed., February 16, 1831. No. 281. New York Albany Journal Feb 1831 The Golden Bible, or the Book of Mormon. The believers in this miserable production, are known by the name of "Mormonites," and their book is commonly called "The book of Mormon."..."Among them is a man of color, a chief man, who is sometimes seized with strange vagaries and odd conceits."