Mormons Vs Ex Mormons: Who REALLY Won This Cringey Debate? ft.

[@dillanconrad]

Let me assure you, Cardon does NOT want the full Jubilee, uncut footage, out there for people to see. He thinks he does because he has narcissistic tendencies. It will be so much worse for him if Jubilee decides to do that.

[@ReelHifi]

I think he is bluffing.. hope Jubilee calls his bluff :) - No one could be that blind or narcissistic... At least I think not

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

It's your word vs. His. How can you assure people when you are speaking for someone else entirely. Cardon has expressed many times that Jubilee cut important parts and wants people to know the whole truth even if it hurts his position. Truth is what he is after not merely show business entertainment.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

I hope they do NOT show any more footage that would enbarass Cardon. The stress and humiliation could seriously harm him considering that he is ill. I genuinely feel sorry for him because, as John says, his position is indefensible.

[@outwardbound2241]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181 he can, because he was there and heard every single word Cardon said....

[@Lyspunkt67]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181You know there's no "winning" with types like Cardon. Even if they show the whole video, it will just be: "they manipulated the video...."

[@Kunta1926]

One of the reasons I despise the Mormon church is when I was growing up in it my grandfather was not a member. He drank coffee. I remember going to visit and stay with him he would cook me a breakfast in the morning and I would wake up to the smell of folgers. I loved my grandfather immensely but always had a lingering feeling that he was bad because he drank coffee. This is man that would have done anything thing for his family, neighborhood or strangers that needed help. The Mormon church trained me to believe that my grandpa was a bad guy. The church is a toxic organization that separates family members through fear, shame and guilt. I wish my grandpa was still here so we could enjoy a cup of coffee together in the morning and just chat in front of the garage like we used to.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you for sharing. My grandpa also drank coffee and my grandma would get so mad when he’d do it while we were there. I also remember thinking he was such a rebel. Such a shame that something so small could taint our opinion of someone.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​​​@@CultstoConsciousness nothing destroys a true relationship to God and family than the hyper religiously of ignorant rules of the word of wisdom . One of the main topics in the New Testament! between Jesus and the Pharasees.

[@AndrewWiscombemusic]

I had similar experiences growing up with some of my family. Breaks my heart now

[@lindseyhendrix2405]

Big hugs to you. This was a touching but painful comment to read. I’m so sorry, my friend. I’m sure he would love to have a cup of coffee with you and would smile fondly to know you feel this way. Cheers to your grandpa! 🤙🏽☕️☕️

[@Kopie0830]

Any religion that bans simple normal things a human would do is a no no. That's why I'm a deist. As long as you do good things and don't do bad things, your a good person in my book.

[@TheFr3nchfry]

How has no one talked about the fact that if you have leukemia, the relief society will make dinner for you? The young men will mow your lawn, and the young women will probably clean your house. But if you're gay you get shunned and are shamed and dehumanized by the entire ward and stake!!!

[@ericnelson9100]

Not if you're behind on tithing, then there' ll be no mowing of lawns or cooking and cleaning.

[@peanut_butter_wizard1213]

Exactly! Even if you can accept the idea of being queer or having cancer as both being trials from God, you cannot deny that they are 'trials' that are treated wildly differently by the Mormon church. If Cardon having leukemia was given the same treatment that any queer person has gotten in the church, I doubt he'd be singing it's praises

[@outwardbound2241]

And since having cancer and being gay is the same in Cardon's eyes, people who suffer from cancer shouldn't be allowed in the temple....

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

And Cardon said he would still trade all that treatment so he could live 20 more years. Please tell me you are both gay and have leukemia so you don't sound like a horrible bigot right now.

[@reinabeaux]

Great point!!!! Ugh they missed so many opportunities to show the GOOD of the church but they just doubled down on all the exclusionary practices then gave the most ridiculous excuses. I had so much second hand embarrassment

[@GaliSinatra]

I think Mormonism makes people with Carden's personality type 10 times worse.

[@olyokie]

Its what cults attract….

[@Jessicad9304]

Yeah I think narcissists are attracted to groups that blow their ego up and back up their existing views of themselves

[@CottageContessa]

Agreed!! As a member who recently left the Mormon church after being raised in it… men like Carden are everywhere and THRIVE in the church. Every narcissistic man in the church I’ve known has been in a position of power and authority, including my abusive & narcissistic father. I think Carden did an excellent job at representing most LDS men who have authority in the church.

[@GaliSinatra]

@@CottageContessa Amen!

[@noahheninger]

Mormonism caters to a narcissist's inflated ego, but can't reign it in with shame and guilt. So yes, 10 times worse, if not more. See Tim Ballard.

[@kfaulknerstudio]

As a never Mormon, I found Cardon to be beyond obnoxious and offensive.

[@twilliamson4874]

same!

[@bendyrland7213]

He is insufferable

[@kol2456]

That's just how a lot of sheltered Mormon kids end up if they get into politics. I've met so many of them, and the pattern becomes really obvious when you live with 3-5 of them at a time.

[@avantgauche]

I found him so intellectual dishonest and a bit of a sealion

[@Jessicad9304]

He was very difficult to watch

[@SnakeWasRight]

Here's the thing about apologists: they aren't there to convince outsiders, they're there to reassure insiders/members that there is an answer, ANY answer, to criticisms from the outside.

[@jennyelsie]

Really good comment

[@harryhenderson2479]

Very true!

[@Parker.r.winder]

True!

[@deeperthings]

Isn't that the definition of apologetics!?

[@ATiredMom]

Guess it depends on what religion/denomination of faith but in general yeah this is true. They are teaching followers on how to 'defend' the faith. Evangelists/missionaries are more for the outsiders.

[@dillanconrad]

Absolutely so excited to listen to this. I had a wonderful experience on Mormon Stories when we filmed our reaction to the Jubilee video. And I absolutely treasure my time with Shelise and Johnathan (and Carah) on From Cults to Consciousness, and Nuanceho, to share my story.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

You did so good Dillan. Way to represent!

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Dillan, I'm glad you still have a relationship with Christ. I hope you believe Tember does too.

[@dillanconrad]

@@jacobsamuelson3181 I believe in order to go through the spiritual journey that he has chosen to go through, based on his desire to find happiness in Christ, he absolutely has a relationship with Christ.

[@dillanconrad]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181I 100% believe Tember has a relationship with Christ.

[@jmut714]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181 I resent the notion that the exmos were diminishing Tember's life choices. At no point were they saying that Tember wasn't happy or didn't have a relationship with Christ.

[@pennamealias]

I'm probably spelling it wrong but the fact that Kwaku redirected the "curse of Cain" by being like well it was really more about Native Americans...cuz somehow he thought that wasn't racist itself.......

[@celinepope]

That guy is also living in his own made up version of Mormonism. Like he has ear piercings, parties with his bros, etc. I live in Utah, and the people my age are starting to do the same thing: not dress modestly, wear their garments, drink when their not in church but judge everyone else who isn't a member and does these things. They're not living the way the church says and then act holier than thou still.

[@peggygarcia6125]

A good friend of mine gave me a wonderful standard of divinity re: punitive gods: "I would never do anything like that to anyone and I think God is at least as nice a person as I am. "

[@marylamphere2112]

Exactly, but we're supposed to believe that God does it because he loves us? Huh? And that this has been going on forever on countless worlds. So you're saying the entirety of the divine mind hasn't figured out a better way?

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

No matter what version or how it's presented to me. I can't believe in God or a god or gods. I know that faith can have a meaning for people but it's far from my perception of life. Your version at least have something to do with love.

[@topazblahblah]

Creating God in your own image? That's called idolatry, Silly.

[@Sam-xt5gb]

@@topazblahblah god did it to us supposedly right? What was that thing.. do unto others?

[@Alumirust]

The part about less overtly dangerous cults almost becoming MORE dangerous because of the ease at which they're able to fly under the radar was so incredibly validating for me to hear. I escaped an evangelical cult at 19, and even though what I went through was horrific, I'd grown up with stories of Heaven's Gate and Jonestown, and even had the JWs and Mormons used as examples of "REAL cults" to dismiss what I was going through. It took me until a few years ago to realize that what I had been in was a cult after escaping another, much more niche high-control group in my early 20s. It reminds me of how physical abuse is often treated vs emotional/other kinds of abuse that aren't as overt. People see fundamentalist evangelicals, mormons, JWs, etc as "less bad" compared to other cults because they think they aren't as damaging. In reality, they are absolutely just as destructive as the most extreme groups, but that kind of destruction is less-than-physical so the people who haven't experienced it don't even perceive that it exists.

[@happix-mo4441]

Couldn't agree more🎉❤

[@Robert-rw5lm]

By these standards religion is bad because religion = cult here

[@ericah6546]

Well said! It reminds me of how a less deadly virus can become more deadly because it's allowed to spread and spread.

[@SilentThundersnow]

Some things SHOULDN'T be put together to find a middle ground!!!! Example: when I was 14, I finally told my mom that her husband was CSA me since I was 11 when she just met him. I had met him once when he kidnapped me. Being threatened and scared, I didn't tell at first. I finally did, nothing happened. When I was 14, I told Mom again after an especially horrible night, and she called the bishop. He called me in, sat me in a room across from the abuser and had a MIDDLE GROUND meeting, like this. He asked me if I could try harder to get along with my stepdad, since we were a family now and why would I want to break up a family?! And he told me I should just try harder not to get alone with him. Writing this now, causes much pain. Still triggering. Some things shouldn't be sat in a room to find the middle ground. Lies vs truth is one. Evil vs good is another. Abuse vs victim is another We wouldn't sit Warren Jeffs and his followers in a room with the Lost Boys to find middle ground, would we??!! Doing this middle ground thing gives their horrible lies and abuse VALIDITY, as if it's a legitimate thing!! IT'S NOT!! Makes me really mad, as you can tell. This whole show needs to stop and ask itself if it's pitting abuse victims against abusers before it does a show! Or crime victims against criminals. It's not VALID to look for middle ground every effing place you go!!!.

[@ludmilamaiolini6811]

Exactly. It’s like saying, let’s find a middle ground between the people who believe the earth is flat and those who believe it’s round. Does that make the earth what, a cillinder? Funny thing is, the dynamic you describe is precisely the reason it’s not recommended to do couple’s therapy when there is abuse going on. I’m also really sorry for what you went through, those idiots were so wrong and so perverse.

[@allyson3629]

i’m sorry to hear that:(( ugh the church sucks, sending love and wishing peace

[@SilentThundersnow]

​@@ludmilamaiolini6811 exactly. Thank you so much!

[@SilentThundersnow]

​@@carlopicanco2555 thank you. I really appreciate the understanding of what I was trying to say.

[@SilentThundersnow]

​@@allyson3629 thank you! 🤗

[@cjmchugh6917]

As a woman who’s a 3 on the Kinsey scale and married to a man, I couldn’t imagine telling lesbian women to marry men because I like women, but my marriage to a man is great. That’s absolutely unhinged.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you for your perspective!

[@nerysghemor5781]

Asexual here and I don't want to be with anyone that way. If I met an asexual man with no expectations of anything in the bedroom that could be a thing, but I would NOT want to be forced into physical intimacy. The one time I tried dating was back around 2000 and I didn't have the vocabulary or frame of reference to understand there was a difference between heteroromantic and heterosexual, and the incompatibility eventually caused the relationship to break apart. Now that I do understand I would never want to be dishonest again (though in that case it was unintentional dishonesty because I didn't know my reactions were odd). TBH if I'd lived in time where there was a lot more pressure to marry, I wonder if I'd have become a nun to get away from it!

[@jeffkunce8501]

Good for you for wanting others to find what is good for them! It's a sign of maturity to know that the experiences and perceptions of other people is *not* the same is yours. Cult-like organizations inhibit that kind of maturity in their members, as well as any other form of maturity or compassion that might weaken their control.

[@chloecagle6493]

The preferential treatment comment was crazy, and I loved hearing Jillian's description of "benevolent sexism" and how that's still harmful to women in John's reaction video.

[@NihilisticJawbreaker]

The People's Temple (Jonestown) is associated with over 900 deaths - most would not be considered suicide because they were children and teens. Many of the adults were forced at gun point. TPT was a branch of The Message, which is the cult I grew up in and it is the jumping off point for some of the most notorious cults in modern history.

[@haroldwhite5761]

As an 8 yr old in the Church I was shocked to find out they don't help girls get into Girl Scouts like the Church helped the boys w/scouting. It was my 1st data point to put in the 'these people have no idea what spirituality is' file.

[@carolyearsley]

When my daughter was that age she complained about the same thing. The boys got all the perks, while the girls got barely anything.

[@L2Sentinel]

The perks suck, honestly. It's a lose/lose for the youth. The girls feel excluded, disenfranchised, powerless, inferior, etc. while the boys have the pressure of serving a mission looming over them and extra church chores to do, like collecting fast offerings (super awkward and uncomfortable), delivering the sacrament to stay at home members, and going home teaching. I don't have a dad, so I got stuck being the bishop's home teaching companion. It was awful. I envied the girls, but I know so many of them would have traded seats with me if they could. I don't mean to diminish the experience of the young women. I just don't think any of us benefited from the sexism of the priesthood.

[@haroldwhite5761]

@@L2Sentinel Agreed. Don't forget the c.s.a. factor, making it a complete sh*tshow contributing to Mormon generational trauma

[@Zeett09]

Within my extended family I know of two Mormon marriages that included a gay man marrying a woman. Both ended in divorce and all involved left the church.

[@Qrtuop]

As a born and raised atheist, cults are a tragedy, but religion itself is so damaging.

[@DisillusionedMillennial]

I remember going to a mormon church with a childhood friend and it looked and felt like a court hearing lol

[@CultstoConsciousness]

😂

[@Sarahwithanh444]

😂😂😂

[@ericatucker2683]

OMG that never crossed my mind but I can totally see that now lol

[@danicapaulos2347]

Lmfao!!

[@Susan_1]

I went to a morman Sunday school one time when I was young. I learned a song, Book of Morman , From the dust. we would repeat but there must have more verses. I just can't remember😂❣️

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

The exmormons decimated the Mormons. Bella was the MVP of that side... I felt bad for her.

[@JennieGarciaN]

I think she was out of the echo chamber, and her wheels were turning.

[@CalypsoBeebee]

I get incredibly emotional about mormonism still. My mom is still in it very deep... she's turning 51 this year. I fear it's too late for her... her mother (my grandmother) immigrated from a country in Europe and then started a family in the US to practice freedom of religion and convert to mormonism. She met my grandfather at BYU and they raised many devout children , one of them being my mom. My leaving of the church caused my mom to put up a wall between us. It's been 10 years since then and the wall is still all the way up. My heart is absolutely broken. 💔💔 I miss my mom , but I could never step foot in that church again. I just want to be able to not feel like she's judging me so much...

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry you have to go through that. It’s never too late.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Just be nice to her. Yes, it might be too late for her, but you might be pleasantly surprised. Mormonism is collapsing.

[@katwitanruna]

Break the silence. Break the cycle.

[@nathanbigler]

I'm really fascinated by the Jubilee episode. Ward Radio was a good choice for the Mormon side, from an exMormon perspective, lol

[@shouldbewritig]

The interesting thing with the “masturbation is a parking ticket” argument and how it may be less harmful but it still is, is the Jodi side of things. People who confessed to it then were sent to her and people like her. Even if it’s not always as harmful, there’s plenty of people who have probably had their lives blown up by that one confession to the bishop.

[@Kimberly-hf6sn]

Glad you talked about the masturbation topic here too. It’s so diminishing to indicate it’s like a traffic ticket. I personally know several people who had their marriage in the temple cancelled/postponed/rujned because a bishop found out about some masturbation. There is major trauma over this issue and the church is soft walking back those doctrines in the same pattern as they have with other issues. So important and I really wish that jubilee segment wasn’t behind a paywall.

[@Gingerblaze]

How is that even policed? Policing and reporting such a thing is extremely weird and seems a far more harmful and deviant practice.

[@shadamyandsonamylover]

@@Gingerblazethis is a 9month old comment but the policing happens from the people themselves. Or from a tattler (somehow). I was not Mormon but Catholic, and you are trained to have a lot of guilt when you knowingly sin. Masturbation is a big easy one to identify and is pretty easy for people to claim you “choose” to do it. So after you immediately associate that with regret and guilt and confess because that’s what you need to do to get into heaven.

[@aquariusfriar]

One of my friends cut themselves off from my social group. They have been actively rejecting the shared interests we had, and are now claiming that what we had in common was holding them back in life. They retreated within the relationship they had with their mormon significant other. I could not believe this. They detransitioned and just pulled away from the rest of us. I can't believe people still fall for this.

[@Vicki-y9w]

I finally left after 60 years of being told what to do, what to eat, be shamed, and having a husband who did nothing to help with 6 children. I am so happy.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

I’m so happy for you! ❤️

[@actingqween]

So, I was raised in the Episcopal Church, and I still practice my faith. Now, I like history, and I am well aware of the problems that have existed throughout the history of the church that I belong to, from King Henry VIII leaving his first wife to die, killing his second wife, and generally just being a difficult human being, to the Episcopal Church participating in creating boarding schools for indigenous children (who often died, and definitely experienced various forms of genocide), not to mention that there is a reason that the African Methodist Episcopal Church exists (note: it's because of racism and exclusivity). That said, the Episcopal Church has never attempted to lie to me about those things, and they have done a lot of work throughout their history to own and repair the damage that past leadership has willfully caused. The Episcopal Church was the first American church to remove the word "obey" from the marriage vows. They also take the stand that woman and man God created us, so woman and man we ordain, meaning that there are tons of women who are priests, deacons, bishops, etc. in the Episcopal Church. The Episcopal Church, more recently, has been working to minimize the use of gendered terms to refer to God, because God is not male or female. Also, as a trinitarian church (which I understand that the Mormon church, JWs, and a few others are not), the Episcopal Church has historically followed the idea that the Holy Spirit is the feminine part of the trinity. The Episcopal Church has had the blessing of same gendered unions since before the SCOTUS ruling in the US, and our current Presiding Bishop actually helped (with some other churches) to fight for the legalization of gay marriage onthe basis of religious freedom. And, when the Anglican Communion throughout the world attempted to push the Episcopal Church, said presiding Bishop, calmly responded by explaining that we are not going back on any of these choices (regarding female leadership and our acceptance of the LGBTQAIA+ community). The Episcopal Church is not perfect, however, I greatly challenge Tember's claims that the LDS Church is doing things best, when they have not allowed women in their church the majority of what I have just listed.

[@lizhoward9754]

24:35 - if John’s suspicions are true and people like Cordon are being paid to be spokespeople for LDS, then I would request a refund because Cordon came across as a stereotypical angry, old white man. He absolutely did nothing to help the “Church.”

[@nancyevans3590]

The problem with apologists is that they are trained to respond to insider concerns. That is why Carson sounds so cringy. He’s giving answers to people who have no way to contextualize his remarks . Kwaku is also an apologist but not having been raised Mormon I think he understands how the things Cardon said could sound so weird to outsiders. Hence, as John pointed out, his remarks were very tempered. He knew his audience better than Cardon.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Great points!

[@radybay9088]

I have watched Cardon several times - gaslighting is one of his best talents.

[@KingArthursCrusade]

Former Mormon Bishop here, left 7 years ago still unlayering years and years of programming. Thank you for your channel and this content. I appreciate your authenticity and the topics covered that have been brushed under the rug for far too long. So many things I could go on and on, but the lack of equality between men and women blows my mind, even ward radio's commentary on Jubilee's episode exposes how out of touch they are . . one of the people on Ward Radio said "The relief society president is on the same level as the presiding Bishopric trying to illustrate why they didn't know their names", which illustrates the point even more!!! Why isn't the Relief Society President at the same level as the Prophet? Where are the wives of the apostles why don't they speak? Why don't they sit with their husbands during conference. . . So beyond tired of the placating, although I used to be on the other side of the desk saying the same thing they are. No longer!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you for sharing that. It’s even more powerful from your perspective and further validates what we spoke on. 🙌

[@Vicki-y9w]

Oh my husband had an affair with his secretary at work. At his excommunicated, the stake President advised me to go home, do not speak about the affair to my children, members in the branch and especially the community (small mid-west town) because i must keep the face of the church perfect since our family had for years were the perfect Mormon family.

[@tennillepatterson5500]

What do women want? We just want to be treated with respect.

[@AndImsomelady]

That sounds like hysterical women talk.

[@tinman3586]

You also want a man who is a minimum of 6' 2", makes considerably more than you (even though you think it's unfair if a man makes more than you), and you don't want to bring anything to the relationship table because "you are the table". Let me introduce you to another YTuber, "Hoe_Math."

[@fvckfascists]

​​​@@tinman3586 If that's your view on women, you either: A. Are extremely unlucky, and choose to generalize because you've been hurt so much. B. You're an asshole but don't see that, so you blame all your past problems on the woman.. and whine about how they don't like nice guys. C. You are a teenager that has been watching too much Andrew Tate. B or C are definitely the most likely.

[@rebeccat9389]

@@tinman3586I’m sorry you have such low quality people in your life that you believe this is true.

[@calamityjai99]

Damn, tinman. My coffee this morning was less bitter than your comment

[@xochitlkitty]

The one person on the Mormons’ panel that could have represented the church well was largely silenced by the ones who can’t stop mansplaining.🙄 they should pass the Mike to her.

[@carolyearsley]

It's common for men to out talk the women in a group setting in public. Women often take over in the home setting.

[@jagmo]

IMO, they're representing the church, REALLY well! :)

[@jamesmcnitt6860]

My father’s cousin is a Kimball and lives in SLC. Unfortunately he has a few gay children that committed suicide. Such a sad heartbreaking situation! I wonder how their great great grandfather would feel about his position on this issue nowadays?😢

[@tbella5186]

Glad you're covering this one, and got John! Carah's coverage of it was perfect, and hilarious!

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Yeah you only got ward radio covering this on the other side because the cults are the ones who love hammering people who don't agree with their views.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Carah is amazing. I love her responses

[@dictatorjames7033]

Nothing hurt me more than the day my LDS Father told me that he felt regret for the sacrifices he made for me when I was a kid because I ended up an Atheist. He's apologized since then, but things just aren't the same.

[@TheSurlyBuddhist]

Apologists very often use logical fallacies like whatsboutisms and the Nirvana fallacy (the idea that nothing can be perfect, so even trying to improve things is a waste of time) to avoid admitting that the thing in question does indeed work, but solely for them. Since it works for them, it doesn’t matter if it works for anyone else. It’s extremely myopic and solipsistic.

[@michelleann578]

Are the men afraid that to give the women the priesthood that the women would break down the crazy temple rituals, fight the abuse cover ups, etc?

[@AndImsomelady]

And probably turn all the boys gay. The sky would fall. The oceans will rise and sun will blow up.

[@AndImsomelady]

It’s a risky proposition.

[@jagmo]

@AndImsomelady-fq6cw Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

[@LizFryerElevate]

I was surprised that there was no discussion referring to the temple and Mormonism being a cult. Was the temple not allowed in the middle ground episode?

[@mylesmarkson1686]

That's exactly what I was thinking when that topic was brought up. What better example than those culty temple rituals?

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

No it's more effective to say your a cult if you don't allow girls to be prophets and discourage masterbation and prevent gays even though you have a LDS gay man defending himself. Every religion has rituals. That doesn't make them a cult.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Great point. Extremely secretive rituals that only the most worthy (and those paying their 10%) can participate in that are a direct ripoff of freemasonry (another secret society) is very culty. Totally forgot to mention this. But we do have a whole episode on the temple with my mom and we talk about her experiences.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

@@CultstoConsciousness Oh God, hear the words from Shalise's mouth!

[@carolround4156]

​@@CultstoConsciousnessthey are not secret. They are sacred.

[@noahheninger]

People need to pay more attention to Kwaku. He's not a paid actor, because he's wayyy too off-script. Regardless of his current allegiances, he's on an interesting journey. He's publicly stated he wants to go on John's show, and while I think having Cardon on would be a waste of time, I think John should absolutely have Kwaku on. Or maybe Shelise should invite him on!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thanks for the donation! I can’t speak for John but that would be an awesome episode. I have to be very very careful about who I allow to be platformed on my channel because we deal with a LOT of abuse survivors and pride ourselves in making this a safe space for them to reflect and learn from other survivors. I feel it might be pushing it to have on someone who doesn’t hold the same compassion for those who were harmed and left their cult. And might betray the trust of our audience. It’s not a hard no, but it’s something we have been seriously considering for a while now.

[@janetbrockman3729]

The real WIN is when people who disagree discuss the topics, face-to-face with respect, listen with openness, instead of listening for an opening… And learn something about how the other side thinks, and feels in other words gain some empathy for the other side. More please: more face to face showing us how to discuss and disagree and learn about each other.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Cults with Consciousness would never let us talk to her face to face cause that would be too harmful for her audience who she is keeping under her thumb.

[@marylamphere2112]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181 honey are you okay? Do you need help? Cause that was...random.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

@@marylamphere2112 How was it random? Cults with Consciousness won't meet us face to face as the OP suggests should be done. Do you have an issue? I'm here to talk if you need.

[@beesupmysleeves]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181 Cults to Consciousness is a channel less about debates and more about giving a platform for the experiences of people who have been roped into and escaped cults and institutionalized patterns of abuse/manipulation. Even outside of the context of a "debate," Shelise does all of the things Janet (the og comment) described; she treats interviewees with respect and empathy and listens with openness and curiosity. I guess I'm confused as to what you expect to happen here? Have you asked to be interviewed or are you just complaining to complain lol?

[@ginapiroli6136]

@jacobsamuelson FYI, the correct name is Cults TO Consciousness.

[@Louisianish]

"Yesterday's bigoted doctrine is today's disassociated policy." 100%, John!

[@abbypayne4496]

29:43 I am the straight woman married to an asexual husband who got married cos that’s what the church told us we should do. We’re still together because we are good friends and there’s so much of our marriage that is right, but I can’t help but feel like my husband is repulsed by me. He’d never say it to my face, but his body language speaks volumes sometimes.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you for sharing that, Abby. It must be hard to wonder. I wish you all the best!❤️

[@Aelffwynn]

Middle ground doesn't work if the middle is between sanity/reality and lies/insanity. Common ground can be found, sure, (an insane person can still love their family and enjoy music, for example, like we do) but trying to find MIDDLE ground with a fool will only make you a fool too.

[@sarahpinho1114]

You guys, plus Carah, are my new church, did you know that? :) I love you guys so much. I felt so lonely and empty after leaving, until I found these channels and people; it was what I was missing. Thank you for your work, because even though I don't need religion anymore, I need people!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Hi Sarah! You’re not alone!!❤️❤️❤️

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Thanks for using the word Church. You tell that to Carah and John and they would probably throw up.

[@robinsaxophone232]

That’s why separation of church and state is of utmost importance. So many out their claiming they speak for God and so many following blindly.

[@EchoesfromtheTabernacle]

When it becomes widely known that Tember Harward is/was on the board of the repressive Northstar and launched his own version of it called Beacons in 2019, his intentions and motivations become clear.

[@lizhoward9754]

I watched this Jubilee episode and I have a sneaky feeling Bella will not remain a “lifer” in the Mormon “Church” because I could tell she felt uncomfortable defending the “Church.” I think the ex-Mos, like John, brought up things she had never thought about. I believe it will be much easier for her to leave since she was a convert and not born into it. My guess is she was roped into this cult at a young age by being love bombed like so many of their young converts. The problem with that is that as you get older and mature you start to see and hear things in the Church you didn’t see as a young person and then you start doing a little bit of research. After that, the whole thing falls begins to unravel. .

[@CultstoConsciousness]

I agree.

[@jagmo]

@lizhoward9754 Go towards the light, Bella! GO. TOWARDS. THE. LIGHT! :)

[@jeffkunce8501]

Did you hear the part at ~21:00 where she went to dinner with the "antis" afterwards. Even if she doesn't leave, she won't be in the apologist camp anymore!

[@RedCanyonWolf]

I think the sad part is that everyone in the church probably thought Cardon was great.

[@mostvaluableproduction]

I watched the Nuancehoe reaction last night as well, and the Cardon's beyond-cringy answers blew my mind.

[@Yourmomashley8]

Omg wait, I’m so excited to see the interview on the Mormon stories channel!! I’m curious to know more about Shelise’s story

[@CultstoConsciousness]

🥰❤️

[@tinman3586]

Cardon would have done better if he had just talked about things from his own personal experience, which is basically what everyone else did. Instead he tried to project his own reality onto everyone else and that was never going to work or come off as anything but arrogant.

[@merrybachelorette]

I think it’s horrible the LDS leaders are hiding behind members - at some point after enough sacrifices are made, the leaders will change their position and try to stake the high ground - but they are clearly hiding right now and watching the tone of the arguments and public discourse before they finally act differently.

[@jesse1008]

I love what John was saying about if half of the churches leadership was women, would the church still be so harmful ? Sexist, racist, excommunications, LGBTQ hatred … I completely agree so many problems like these would be figured out if at least half or more were women. I was really feeling that.

[@lcwalker2920]

Is there somewhere that we can see the unedited version?

[@raebeesknees]

Never a mormon, and found Cardin annoying, but explained it away as it being hard to confront these things about your faith. Then I saw the reaction pop up on my feed from his youtube channel and found he’s just a completely arrogant (for no reason) and unlikeable person.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

If you knew you would die in less than 10 years would you be arrogant. Don't say he doesn't have a reason, especially dealing with stubborn woke people who don't know who a woman is.

[@Teajay21]

​@jacobsamuelson3181 what? It sucks that he's sick but having a chronic/terminal illness isn't a reason to be obnoxiously arrogant, that's not correlated at all.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

@@Teajay21 What's yours then?

[@johnpoole3871]

​@jacobsamuelson3181 We just want to be kind to trans people, you are too cowardly to admit you want to be cruel to them so you hide behind semantic nonsense.

[@lcwalker2920]

I left a message on one of their broadcasts telling them that their flippant way of dealing with issues does nothing for LDS apologetics. In one of their broadcasts, they accuse Lynn Wilder of "religious bigotry" and I pointed out that its hypocritical of them to call her that given what Joseph Smith's official first vision says about other religions of the day and, well, what the LDS church still teaches today about other religious groups. I feel bad that Cardon has cancer. Nobody should have to go through it and I am pretty sure that nobody wants him to have to go through it. But if he insists on acting so ugly towards those who have left the LDS church this way, especially when they're not mocking him, he is definitely cutting off his own nose to spite his face as are the others. I hope they will get out of "David Alexander" mode and become serious apologists but for now they come across as SNL live wannabes.

[@Valeriamtzp]

It was so cringey to hear cardon say that people told him how good he did, and how he thought he was the center of attention "I told you I was gonna be on the thumbnail, I knew everybody was gonna go after me and they would make me the villain because they hate me the most for being a white straight male" ughhh. It seems like not even kwaku thought he did good 🫢. I'm glad they changed the thumbnail in a day or two

[@jagmo]

@vlalelrlila I thought he was Jack Black, at first glance!

[@olyokie]

Absolutely its a cult. And a horrible one.

[@lcwalker2920]

Oh yeah, the Onan thing. Onan wasn't put to death for masturbation. He was put to death for not fulfilling his duty as a brother. He was supposed to father a child with his brothers' widow so his brothers lineage could go on. She was willing. He didn't want the lineage competition.

[@China-Clay]

My biggest regret of raising my kids in the church? Teaching them to be honest, little did I know what the conversations behind closed doors were really about, teach your kids to run from groomers, run fast

[@carolyearsley]

Being a convert, when I was raising my children I had no idea that this happened in the interviews.

[@Glennn7]

"Religion Poisons Everything" - Christopher Hitchens

[@Materogringo]

42:28 not to mention that cardon himself says that the only reason he knows who the general YW president is is because he has a daughter that age. So if he didnt have a daughter, he would care even less than he does

[@outwardbound2241]

No mistake the lds church makes and no harm it causes is in any way justifiable. So there was no chance for the Mormons to win this. Why? Because if you claim to be "the one true church" and you have prophets in the here and now who speak DIRECTLY with God, there just is no margin for error. There is no doctrine vs policy, there is no "oh, he just spoke as a human". If he is a prophet and able to speak with God, everything he says has to be the ultimate godly Truth (with a capital T, Cardon, Jodi....) With these claims, the church is causing it's own downfall. It would be completely different if they would just say: there are different ways to God and this is the one our church offers. Then, a discussion about mistakes and course corrections would easily be possible without harming the credibility of the church @mormonstories

[@caseyjude5472]

1:06:49 How long will Carson represent the Church? The Church is chock full of Cardons. He IS an accurate representation of the Church’s teachings and members. Unfortunately.

[@gtaylor6937]

When I go to bed at night now I thank God that I wasn't raised Mormon. There is so much guilt and shame in this belief system - it would be very difficult to get out of because of all the traps they set to override your own intuition and sense of right and wrong. I really feel for these people that have suffered so much in this church.

[@tdsollog]

“Why must women always be last????” Exactly

[@pamelatd]

I love all of these reaction/discussion videos about the Jubilee episode!

[@debbyfazfphotography]

I love how thoughtful your interviews always are both on C to C and Mormon Stories. TY! ❤

[@AndImsomelady]

Both of them are great at interviewing and being interviewing

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you so much! ☺️

[@xochitlkitty]

Always love to see the two of you in an episode.

[@slashismyhommie8182]

Wait, so me sleeping with my wrestling coach to ensure I don't get cancer doesn't work? I'm writing Jim Jordan immediately about that, and he better do something about it.

[@yvonnetruelove2270]

😂🤣😂🤣

[@BeefyGoddessApothecary]

"Carden was reason number one two and three"... dead! 🤣

[@gracequalls9770]

I've been waiting for your coverage on this! Hope you are feeling healthy and happy with baby on the way!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you!! More tired and out of breath than usual, but doing my best to keep going till she comes!❤️

[@gracequalls9770]

I've been there, the last few weeks are the toughest. I loved bouncing on the yoga ball​ to relax @@CultstoConsciousness

[@valerieblouch5409]

As a child I remember hearing 3 men expound on their interpretation of the same scripture. They were emphatic and convincing. Since I was convinced all 3 were correct, I asked my Dad how can I possibly know who is right? He told me, just trust in the basics. Leave the secondary doctrines up to God. They don't amount to a hill of beans anyway. My Dad was very wise. Secondary doctrine is the common denominator of most cults.

[@BeckySkolnick]

Hope you are feeling well and thank you for all your videos as I know it must be incredibly draining. Sending love and good vibes

[@sarahstuckey7098]

The crossover I've been wanting!!! amazing

[@jisezer]

What I find very problematic about the Jubilee interview was that there were no Black ex-Mormons

[@MrArdytube]

The entire premise of “Middle Ground “ falls apart if we imagine a show featuring concentration camp guards vs prisoners. And, i think this is a more generalized problem of mass media where they attempt to present “both sides.”

[@cherylleech579]

I can’t understand in this day and age why people are letting someone else rule their lives telling them how they feel and what they are to do in life. It’s disgusting and abusive and so so wrong.

[@xoxodm9703]

Do people stop being friends with you when they find out you’re mormon ? Or do you stop being friends with someone when you find out they’re mormon ?

[@LibraLoo]

I have watched a few different reactions to this Jubilee episode and I am unbelievably ecstatic for this one❤❤❤

[@ericatucker2683]

I've been waiting for your Mormon stories for almost a year!

[@GracefullyAutistic]

Can someone please tell me who the 'Mother of Heaven' is supposed to be? Is it the Virgin Mary, or someone else? I'm not Mormon, so I never heard this term before, even with my Mormon friends (though considering what I now know from this video, it's easy to see why they never mentioned that!). But if it's just another name for Mary, then why would they be so secretive about it?

[@AprilFriday-de6vm]

Exmormon answer: No, heavenly mother isn’t Mary. She is the wife of Heavenly Father/God. A spirit that used to be a mortal woman who married a mortal man and were later elevated to god status through following church principles on whatever planet they were born on. Mormons aren’t allowed to pray to her, and they try to minimize thinking about/talking about this concept because it’s weird and gives off culty vibes.

[@GracefullyAutistic]

@@AprilFriday-de6vm Thank you, this was helpful!

[@Dexuz]

@@AprilFriday-de6vm So in Mormonism it's gods all the way down?

[@AprilFriday-de6vm]

@@Dexuz kinda. I mean, they definitely aren’t supposed to worship any other gods, but there’s never an answer given about how the whole chain of gods started. It’s not emphasized anymore, as it was when I was young. There have been a few other tweaks over the years, which have been quietly removed from doctrine.

[@petemccutchen3266]

The notion that it should be illegal to claim to speak for God is insane. It contradicts our whole history of free speech and freedom of religion. The real problem is the idiots who believe these claims.

[@orbitingpluto3213]

Also, if it's illegal to make claims about what God says/believes, it would also be illegal for ex-mormons to make claims against what God believes. It would force theological conversations into dark corners. Not good. Free speech all the way.

[@stacey5440]

It *stays* creepy as hell to me that grown men are asking children about what they do with their sexual organs. It's absolutely perverted and gross. (And I don't think almost anything is "perverted" -- I'm a good person, but I'm _not_ a good girl.)

[@Letstalkaliens1]

X Christian here, I've participated with Baptist Catholic Presbyterian Methodist non denomination charismatic and even was a part of founding and developing a new church. And there is not one church that I've walked in and walked out of with my dignity Christianity is a cult no different than any of the other cults out there, after my deconstruction. I've had to battle with severe PTSD which I am still battling

[@danicapaulos2347]

amazing episode! I can’t wait for your Mormon stories interview!!!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thanks Danica!❤️

[@KurtMathews-ko6rc]

When you’re 18 and you have a nephew that is sick and need help you think oh I have the power of blessings. This was my first experience with giving a blessing. I felt like god was not giving me an answer because I master-bated. Such an awful feeling of guilt to think I was not able to heal because I did something bad.

[@cabrown308]

OK, I’ll go ahead and listen to this because I enjoy your podcast, but I think the short answer to the question is: F**K YEAH And I’m sorry, but saying they do some good, which is truly questionable when you balance it against the scales of the harm, is a typical response that grew out of the patriarchy: “they were never mean to me.” Which ironically is not even true in your case

[@DanielFreed-f2b]

Timber didn't really say anything about being sexually satisfied in his marriage. He said a couple of times that he finds joy in Christ being married in the way the church teaches you have to be.

[@M_elliote34]

Cardon is a covert narcissist period.

[@EasternDreamer615]

Love the content and the collab Shelise, Jonathan, and John. I'm enjoying this after staying up late in Thailand while editing my latest.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you!

[@candacelee6523]

17:58 I cannot wait for Daniella’s new book “The Culting of America” because it’s really interesting how many abusive cults sprung up in the US around the same time

[@carissacaressacarossa]

Every day since Jubilee released the video has been so entertaining and satisfying for exmos

[@CultstoConsciousness]

😂

[@jagmo]

@carissaclanton4150 Me (exmo) watching Cardon: "So...familiar...oh, yeah, now I remember THAT attitude."

[@liseklerekoper2441]

Cardon came across as extremely narcissistic, & what tends to be seriously lacking or absent in narcissists, is insight/self awareness, not to mention true empathy. A narcissist can come across as empathetic at times, but it’s never true empathy. It’s empathy where the ultimate goal is for them to get a need or a want met. Like almost everything else they do, it’s self serving. Cardon’s obnoxious monopolizing on the Jubilee episode was over the top. Due to the insight deficit, I don’t think he even realized how much he was hijacking the conversation. Definitely not an excuse or justification, just an observation to provide additional context. I heard on Nuanceho’s channel that Cardon regularly posts pics on social media of his wife’s butt & other more sexualized photos of her. How is that in line w/ the Mormon Church, which encourages modesty in dress & not doing anything publicly w/ strong sexual overtones? He’s so cringy & gross, & seems that w/ the Mormon church’s rules & doctrine which he doesn’t want to follow 100%, he discounts & minimizes them as not “really bad sins” … like a minor traffic infraction. However, w/ doctrine he feels strongly about, such as being against same orientation marriages & sexual contact in those marriages, then he’s up on his soapbox pontificating to his position. The guy is such a hypocrite. Have to wonder about his wife, because who would knowingly choose such an arrogant, obnoxious misogynist as a spouse? My guess is she has many codependent traits, as narcissists usually seek out codependents who are too often over-focused on meeting their partner’s needs & avoiding any kind of conflict. I can’t imagine what woman would want to spend literal eternity w/ Cardon. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@mikkilovescats]

I had a devout mormon friend in college that disclosed to me (because im exmo) that as a teenager, his parents "grounded him without food" after catching him masturbating. He called it being grounded without food, but I would classify it more as "grounded without pleasure." He was only allowed plain rice and boiled hot dogs (insane symbolism if his parents meant it that way). For a sickening amount of time, like a month, he said.

[@joninewman8673]

Fantastic episode. I’d love to read the research on mixed-orientation marriages and bisexuality-that was fascinating. I do wish that could have been discussed while also avoiding speculation on Tember’s sexuality and the health of his marriage. Even so, this was a really great discussion. Thank you all for your work!

[@marylamphere2112]

Im petty, i LOVE seeing Ward Radios views at like 16k after 8 days and you're at over 13k after 5 hours 😂 And lets be honest, our middle aged heterosexual cis guy is way better than theirs.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

😂😂😂🙌

[@anniejensen77]

I cannot stop laughing about 1:04:05 🤣about the cringey stuff that didn't make it in. I'm dead. 🤣🤣💀