Mormon Abuse Cover-Ups in Denmark | Ep. 1975

[@riiieable]

This is absolutely wild and horrific. Also a strange merging of worlds for me. As a native Danish never-Mormon who now lives in the US and have been binge watching Mormon stories for years, I honestly never expected such a pivotal episode to be made about something that happened in my home country. With a small Mormon population, most Danes don’t even know Mormons exist. I hope they do now and see the harm this church can bring to its members. May the Danish ministers and courts do the right thing.

[@kiuakakirstine8257]

I just watched the documentary and what surprised me the most, is the fact, that the church have their own “justice system”. We don’t allow sharia laws in Denmark, so it really bothers me, that LDS are “allowed” to overrule the laws of our country..

[@sandaroocompilations5182]

Myself and my sisters reported our child abuse to four different bishops, over multiple years. None of them did one thing. We were told if we were better kids, the abuse wouldn’t happen as often. We were young innocent, very good, girls. It is sickening as an adult to realize everything that should have been done, but wasn’t .

[@Gideonslc]

Another example of Mormonism gaslighting & or grooming young children. It's appalling that those Bishop's behaved that way

[@expatmamameettheexpats542]

I also reported my mother's abuse towards me all my life and I was completely ignored and gaslighted by all my bishops.

[@sandaroocompilations5182]

@@expatmamameettheexpats542I’m so sorry that happened to you too! My mom was also my abuser. She was extremely violent and tried to kill me on multiple occasions. Finally at age 17, my school got involved and I was able to get out.

[@expatmamameettheexpats542]

@@sandaroocompilations5182 I'm glad your school helped you get out.

[@susiekathryn8570]

I’m so sorry. Sending positive vibes as you heal.

[@ChristineOfTheDowns]

When I first learned of Marital R&pe years ago I shared the information with my husband (we were both Mormon.) His response was “If you’re married, r&pe is not possible.” Guess who was married and r&ped for more than 30 years by a Mormon man who served in many callings including as Bishop. The divorce is in progress now.

[@LisaNunlist]

Good luck in your journey into health and peace; hope you build a strong support system. You’ll likely go through stages of grief (including anger) because it is a type of death.

[@janealveyharris2433]

Was looking through the comments before making one myself. I’m so sorry for what has happened to you. My comment was going to be that I believe there are many people in the church who wouldn’t see a problem with this. It’s absolutely horrific. I can just hear people saying “well, he said he was sorry.”

[@carriereid4234]

Men's attitudes are those of distant history. And they don't want to change because these attitudes are 100% to all men's advantage. Hope you can find comfort in your future. Love and hugs ❤❤

[@ginafrancis4950]

In many other patriarchal religions and societies it is the same. The church is stuck in the ages where women were the property of their fathers and then their husbands. Women had no say over anything especially over their own bodies. Like Michael said- the church needs to move into modernity. Unfortunately too many men still cling to their power. Whether it is global or in the marital bed. Sickeningly the church still supports that type of mindset.

[@dianemelling5446]

1993 it actually became a crime. I would imagine this topic goes so deep.

[@shannahdawn4724]

That’s many women’s story I am So Impressed these two Gentlemen are speaking out, standing up and “Being the Change”. John and Maven, well done! (Per usual.) ❤️

[@kelliebporter]

I've been told point blank by a branch president not to report abuse because it would hurt the church reputation. I was so young, dumb and impressionable. I didn't report it

[@amazinmaven]

We place a lot of trust in people when we don't know better 😞

[@watchdog8058]

That was not your fault!

[@ppgranja3]

So sad this happened to you. Unfortunately, all they care about is the institution and its image.

[@dianethulin1700]

WOW!

[@lisanunlist9510]

Don’t know about a “celestial kingdom,” but know there’s a corner of Hell for abusers & those who COVER for them!

[@iamjustsaying1]

Great episode. It demonstrates what so many women have found out the hard way: the church is not a safe place for women or children; and when things go badly, the old boys club (priesthood leaders) are not going to be there to help the victims. They help each other and the church.

[@jakobdickens929]

I really enjoyed Maven co-hosting on this. Well done!!

[@MISSYSORENSON]

I love what Michael said about how bad he felt for the victims and how they don’t receive any help. John keep having these kind of discussions so people can learn and hopefully support the victims and not the perpetrators. Went thru se… ab from 6yrs old to 16. Active Mormon. Told my Bishop went to 2 different foster homes and finally said “peace out”. Moved out and lived on my own at 17. Victims are made to feel like it is their fault. And don’t get me started on LDS councilors.

[@UmWhaaat]

1:06:00 well, so then what? The rapist can’t get to his wife/victim…who do you think he’s going to go after next that he has access to? The kids! Wtf are these people thinking?

[@Mushroomstops]

In the last decade we have learned about many abuses perpetrated on members of various religions. I’m so glad there are former Mormons keeping their church accountable. I wish the same could be done for the protestant church, but I’m afraid that it may be too far reaching and spread out to ever get the kind of attention that it needs on the subject. I appreciate every news article, every podcast and every documentary on the subject. Citizens have to know before they can protect the people and their children in those religions. Thank you to everyone at Mormon stories. You have done so much for ex Christians and ex Mormons. You kept me sane through some pretty hard times as I was deconstructing. Thank you, John. I could find you, but I could not find any Christians at the time doing anything near what you were doing. I do believe Mormons are Christians now that I am not a Christian. So don’t let it throw you if I’m separating the two out. As a former Christian, we did not see you as Christians.

[@CheyenneTerry970]

I agree. I was raised Southern Baptist in a highly conservative environment. When abuse was reported, it was swept under rug. Ministers did not report to the police. Instead, known abusers were shuffled around to other churches with vacancies and pretended the abuse didn’t happen. Out of all the names of known pedophiles that the SBC released publicly a couple of years ago, I personally knew four of them. One of them was from my home church. There’s another one that I know was handsy, but was never found out, never convicted, and actually got out of ministry for about 20 years and he has recently returned to ministry full time and I am concerned for those in his congregation.

[@jamietodd3728]

Thank you for covering this topic

[@mormonstories]

Any time

[@susiekathryn8570]

The more I hear, and it’s been a lot over the years, and myself as a SA victim, the church sucks and my distain for the church grows. Not God. But the church.

[@99blackbirds]

Dear Elder OAKS!!!!!! Do BETTER!! Be BETTER!!! "Your a mean one Mr grinch" 🎄🎄

[@dianethulin1700]

My sister who is TBM adores President Nelson and Wendy too. She does not like Elder Oakes. When you're losing the TBM's you are doing something wrong. Like being yourself. The wrong man for the job- Serious

[@99blackbirds]

@@dianethulin1700 my active mom doesnt like Elder Oaks!! SHisHHHHH!!! She and I will DENY every saying it!!! We don't want to be Apostate and Excommunicated!!! PLEASE!!!

[@soude85]

Attaching a picture of the potential lock in an email was absolutely disturbing! How can anyone think this is an acceptable solution?! That’s just horrifying.

[@Marenlauder1]

I’m half Danish and ex Mormon. I love hearing a Danish man speak English. Reminds me of my favorite uncles.

[@IamTheMom]

I have a similar story from a neighboring country of Denmark, and it is horrible 😢 I have heard the story myself, I have read court documents and over heard conversations that leaders has had about it. This has to stop! This poor woman 😢❤

[@koolio5202]

This was the best podcast I've ever seen. This is quite the compliment when you consider that they're all quite good.

[@pseudointellectual7843]

Maven is well-spoken and brilliant. Her point of view is very valuable. A thoroughly delightful and interesting person. I am always glad to see her on podcasts.

[@jessicathurston6494]

Excellent. Thank you so much for covering this. We have to keep shining a light on the church’s mishandling of abuse. Thank you Bishop, Michael, Kieran, Maven, John.

[@phoenixrising5338]

Major kudos to this journalist and bishop! They are 100% correct. I don't know how the bishop is going to keep from major repercussions. You don't speak up like this without them.

[@bishopmeilsoe]

Bishop is doing fine

[@RebeccaStone-e8q]

@@bishopmeilsoeuttalas ditt namn korrekt? Ursäkta att jag skriver på svenska

[@valentinat3250]

This story is so terrible….I don’t know where to start.

[@JohnJohn-l5c]

John you have saved people millions in tithing by opening their eyes and exposing the LD$ cult, thanks.

[@ferchrissakes]

Just echoing the perception of the Mormon Church in Denmark: there isn’t much perception of it. The Mormons are those people in Utah that used to have lots of wives or some such? That’s about it. Of course there are Mormons in Denmark too, just like there are a members of lots of religions and sects - even some fringe homespun ones - but it’s just not _a thing._ It’s a Protestant-by-default but secular and pretty irreligious country overall so the general attitude is mild bemusement toward religions that are actively practiced in any organized way beyond weddings, funerals and holiday. Or - in the case of horror stories like this - the attitude is bewilderment and concern. Well, in the case of Islam, it often _starts_ at suspicion, but that’s its own can of xenophobic worms. Point is that this story, to many Danish ears, isn’t specifically anti-Mormon, but a story about how and why a belief system _of any kind_ would factor into what’s a horrible tale of abuse regardless.

[@Cascadian_6.5]

This story is horrific. If the church really wants to use the name of Jesus, they need to protect the innocent as he taught instead of protecting the church legally… the lawyers who run the church are not doing a good job.

[@alicebert618]

The church’s instructions to the family say that Pieter has an addiction that causes him to do these rapes. Is there any such addiction? Or is his behavior just criminal. Also the church’s instructions tell the children to feel sorry for the husband but apparently the children are not told to be sorry for the mother.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Very twisted thinking for sure. A great excuse for horrific actions- call it addiction. Well it’s NOT. It is called power and control within the patriarchy. The church has been steeped in it from its very beginnings.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

It's a crime.

[@angelikabehrend417]

If the abused individual remains in the family, the family will continue paying tithing, as long as the family stays active in the church.

[@AudraStClair]

Wow! This is so incredibly infuriating and Maven is SUCH A QUEEN!!!! She is soooooo good and articulates beautifully, explains with care, asks thoughtful questions, she is just right in her element!!! 👏👏👏 & Thank you for advocating and facing such critical spaces with confidence and care. So much respect.

[@CinnamuerteNunya]

At some point a woman has to go to the authorities herself. A church or husband may not be working in her best interest. Listen up ladies think for yourself! If you are not safe GET OUT and take the kids with you! Pretending its going to get better is not only naive but foolish and dangerous. God ain't paying attention to your needs. He's busy counting bank deposits! Keep yourself and your children safe!

[@carriereid4234]

It really isn't that easy. Attitudes of family and police were not helpful to me in the early 1980s. Thankfully things changed and police were retrained later on. But the church didn't change!!!!!

[@ginafrancis4950]

Religious indoctrination is a powerful thing. Women believe the lies to their core. When told to be obedient and trust male authority they do just that! Only very slowly does the light come on. For some it never does no matter the abuse. I’m just so happy for Kieran that she finally saw the power and control dynamics that were at play within the church and left both abusers- her husband and the church!

[@debbieshrubb1222]

The time women are most likely to be killed by their male partner is when they seek help (and leave). That is why many women don't seek help; additionally they may fear they won't be believed anyway.

[@Alibee123]

I’m relieved the church wasn’t able to stop the documentary airing. Michael’s observations are spot on! Peter has a sibling that is a sex therapist. She went around men in her stake asking them to discuss with her their relationship with sex. Can’t make this up. Now I have so many questions. Did the entire family and others in the stake know what Kiran was being subjected to and try to love Peter better while she was in a locked room.. and were the children locked in with her or locked on the other side seperated from her WITH their father that they thought was an uncontrollable predator that required locks in their home.. The church leaders say they “don’t remember”, They believe they are acting for God. When someone goes through the process of confessing to them seeming repentant, their “sins are remembered no more.” They remember.. they wish they didn’t because they know they are lying under instruction of the church! Believing they’re the only ones with Gods own power and ‘God’s law’ which trumps all other. The trouble is their ‘law’ system endangers people and protects abusers and dysfunction. 😢

[@mormonstories]

Brilliant comment @Alibee123

[@Alibee123]

@@mormonstories Thank you for covering this. Great panel!!

[@micheleaustin794]

My mother should come forth and tell her story.....many women were told the same unfortunately..in the name of "marriage" and sickness and health vows. This kills the future of all children..I personally know.

[@user-mn447]

They can’t express sympathy, or that would be an admission of guilt! 1:34:25

[@LisaNunlist]

Plus, they likely aren’t feeling sympathy, only irritation.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

John is right. Mormonism makes sense if you look at it like a profitable corporation.

[@PrixyPurple]

43:07 it actually makes perfect sense that premarital consensual sexual is punished more harshly than marital r@pe. They see the former as much worse than the latter. If they are married it’s fine according to that view point.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

It doesn't make perfect sense at all. Rape is rape.

[@jordanjoestar-turniptruck]

Its very much in the doctrine "your body doesn't belong to you, it belongs to God and is on loan to you, and you and your spouse have already given yourselves to eachother."

[@ScribblerILM]

Isn't it interesting that single bishops don't represent what knowledge the church itself has when it comes to knowing of ongoing crimes, but a bishop does represent the institution, and the church does have knowledge of their actions and personal knowledge when a bishop "tells" a victim to report to police or to leave. (And apparently they know of multiple untraceable times...) Also, it's fascinating that they wouldn't know if things were still happening after the original confession, trial and punishment, seeing as anyone with an ounce of care would worry and inquire on her ongoing safety and well-being once they knew what was happening. It's not as though they were too sensitive and afraid to pry to ask. We know given all the other crazy intrusive questions they routinely demand answers to, from everyone at all ages, believing it be their devine right purview. Surely that would guarantee following up and monitoring to be their standard operating procedure and to be completely necessary by devine mandate. One would think they would have to follow up on this like they do other sins next to murder, or even lesser sins like cloths or drinks or paying them enough.(jk obviously not paying them enough is the most egregious)

[@ginafrancis4950]

Agree 100%

[@tor_ras91]

JWs lost their Religious exemption in Norway I believe

[@cathymckinley3693]

Reporting to the authorities is not the responsibility of the person being abused.

[@Woofie_mc]

Canwe watch the whole documentary on KZbin?

[@helenebjerno6863]

No it is a documentary produced by Danish tv2. I dont know how foreigners could access that tv-station?

[@riiieable]

You may be able to watch using a VPN

[@marietate1915]

Thanks!

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska. 🤔 Pattern and Practice. ⚖️

[@carolboettcher7654]

That final picture paints a thousand words. ❤

[@Gideonslc]

33:00 That the wife wasn't involved in the Disciplinary Council is egregious. This gives the husband full control over the narrative told to the leaders. If I understand things correctly, though, the Stake President is a relative of the accused. In legal cases that would be justification for a judge to recuse themselves for a conflict of interest.

[@victoriaquentino5836]

Does the church ignore the 12th Article of Faith? Sounds like it to me.

[@ginafrancis4950]

They ignore a lot of things that don’t benefit them

[@rebeccahansen1786]

My pioneer ancestors were from Denmark. I’m surprised to learn the Mormon population there is so small.

[@ginafrancis4950]

So glad it is. For Denmarks sake!

[@01inarow]

The attitude certainly never changes.. you echo blame the victims from decades past..women I knew then were also blamed.. and many DID go to the police.. and their church leaders..spent years in court,(broken family relationships for going) shunned in church and REQUIRED to apologize to their abuser because they should have forgiven HIM.. And we wonder why it stays the same.

[@Alibee123]

I had a friend in the church that was SA by their father since they were young.. their father was a chief of police!!!!

[@aprilshowers21]

Our family converted to Mormonism and immigrated to the United States from Denmark. We love our home country. 🇩🇰 This story is heartbreaking. The damage it has, and will continue to cause the victim is real and devastating. I hope the LDS church, the abuser, and the people who enabled it are held fully accountable… and that the real GOOD people will come forward and act on the principles of love for the actual victims and advocate for true Christ-like anger against those who harmed them. The character of Jesus was in standing for good, and he was not always “nice”. He held people accountable and protected the innocent and marginalized. Mormons get that twisted a lot, and it’s a very important distinction.

[@robynw8223]

This story is wild! The Bishop wearing an ankle bracelet while leading his congregation?? So nuts!

[@itsemeinin]

Where can you watch the"Faith, hope and rape" documentary in the US?

[@missLeneSalver]

im A dane living in Denmark, and no i did not know we had mormons in Denmark, thanks to Michael for talking about this

[@valerismith9929]

Geez, this is aweful!!

[@utahagentz]

Served a mission in Denmark 87-89, very sad to hear this information.

[@kurtbradwill]

Where can we see this doc? I may have missed but is it in Danish?

[@user-rf2iu3wo9u]

it is in danish, its from a station called tv2. the danish title is "tro håb og voldtægt". you'd need a vpn but that still leaves the language barrier (i assume)

[@kurtbradwill]

@user-rf2iu3wo9u i use a vpn but yeah only speak English 🤷‍♂️ Either way I'm glad they're doing this show to spread the news for an English audience

[@hahafalseflag5090]

With all the Mormon people in the world whose been through all kinds of abuse from the church, why have all the people not got together and went to a federal government? There has to be 1000's of people affected.

[@Who-Dunnit]

Maven did so well. I enjoyed this episode greatly

[@Atalinay]

I found it really interesting what Bishop Meilsøe said about his view of the Danish LDS incorporating more Danish culture and not just adopting what ppl do in the US. LDS do preach about obeying the law of the land, but what about the culture of the land? Community is a big aspect of religion and taking control like that sounds amazing.

[@917hazel]

These accounts of abuse are universal to many institutions. The “girl” who accuses the popular football player of rape, and is then ostracized bec no one wants to hear it. The Catholic Church, where despite that lousy and shameful history ppl still go and defend. So many other examples. The Yoga World is another! All over the place and everywhere😔 Thank you to all involved in this episode🙏

[@natalies4375]

❤❤❤

[@pseudointellectual7843]

The skill of the two Danish guests in speaking English is outstanding. They speak English better than a great many native speakers we know.

[@janetbeatty1732]

Since I am a woman and know many women I think it is likely quite a few women that this wife probably talked to could be in trouble for not reporting her rape to the authorities. However bottom line the wife kind of had the civic duty to go to the police herself she didn’t come across as disabled.

[@ginafrancis4950]

She WAS disabled. Her belief in patriarchal authority and love of the church disabled her. Indoctrination is a powerful tool to get people to not think for themselves. Kieran finally began to see the light of what she had been subjected too and found the courage to go to the police, after being told for years not too. Constantly being told to keep family together at all costs cause the church requires it to stay a member in good standing. What’s so sick is her husband didn’t seem to have any problem with staying in “good” standing in the churches eyes- it’s absolutely revolting!! She was abused not just by her husband but also by the system (run by men) she had believed in and loved most of her life! She deserves a medal and monetary compensation as far as I’m concerned!

[@aircastlearchitect]

She would have had to counter deep programming in order to even have the thought that she should report her husband. Ultimately, she did stand up. It must have taken a lot of courage. These are people who have been taught since birth to put “god” (the church) over country and even their own children.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

That is a very brutal view.

[@aaronhawkins1541]

❤

[@joycegrover1146]

What wife dosent have the ability to go to the law herself! If it’s something she feels is against her will she needs to take responsibility to report it! Really, a wife being treated this way sets back and waits for the church to take care of her! Something dosent smell right! This makes Mormon women sound completely helpless! I don’t think so! Why is all this the BIG BAD CHURCH’s fault!

[@ChristineOfTheDowns]

The brainwashing goes deep. It goes very, very deep. I’m not Mormon anymore and I still cannot get the 53 years of indoctrination and brainwashing out of me.

[@rebeccahansen1786]

Because the church indoctrinates members from childhood that the only recourse is through the church. Don’t underestimate the power of mind control in high demand religions.

[@pjpoet1]

Mormon women are taught to submit to male authority, always.

[@ChristineOfTheDowns]

@@joycegrover1146 because they are a big bad church and I lived many decades “knowing” that the people around me are judging the church by my actions, image, language, family, and achievements. To report misdeeds of my husband simply could not happen.

[@ginafrancis4950]

WOW! Just WOW! 🤯 Blame the victim? There are so many things wrong with your comment I’m flabbergasted. Kieran was indoctrinated by the church to believe that it knew best for her. She did what was expected of her by Mormon standards. Go to the bishop. She was told to trust the process. So she did. Do not go to authorities this is a church issue and it needs to stay there. Patriarchy is part of Mormon indoctrination. Men know best. Women stay quiet and submissive. But Kieran did finally find the courage to go to the police against all the brainwashing by the church that told her not to. Coercion, power and control are the hallmarks of a patriarchal system. Kieran was abused not only by her husband but also by the system (run by Men) that she trusted, loved and believed would help her. She deserves Respect not derision. She also deserves a medal and monetary compensation for her pain and suffering at the hands of this BIG BAD CHURCH (your words) that has billions.