Mormon Historian Admits Joseph Smith First Vision Problems Raised in CES Letter - Dr. Steven Harper

[@mb-the-enby]

The moment I heard Sandra Tanner’s voice I lost it. She’s amazing.

[@marfiskey3102]

I LOVE when Sandra is on.. she is so easy to listen to.. and her explanations are so clear. I'm excited to listen

[@rsc8148]

Love Sandra. She's a treasure. And Dan Vogel does is fantastic with the historical record. Thank you. I really enjoy some of the episodes with experts talking about truth claims.

[@personofinterest8731]

Sandra Tanner, my BFF and she doesn't even know me. I read NMKMH in 1993. Thanks Gerardo for bringing her on. Merry Christmas one and all from South Africa 🇿🇦🎄🎉💃

[@sdfotodude]

Great show. I LOVE me some Sandra and Dan

[@paisleyrhinehart9194]

As someone once said, "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said." But because the Book of Mormon is a brilliantly made up tale, Joseph got caught up with lying incessantly, trying to pass off the BOM as truth and fact.

[@anduril7401]

I was raised Mormon and went on a mission but I wasn’t fully convinced before I left for my mission(the temple did not help) and during my mission to Salt Lake City of all places I got to see behind the curtain(I’ve been in the holy of Holies in the salt lake temple) and learned it’s just about money at this point. When we’d baptize people the church only cared if they were paying tithing as soon as they converted and that they weren’t real converts if they weren’t paying tithing. It blew my mind that we didn’t really care about people’s salvation. I was like “even if this is fake at least pretend that the baptism washed away their sins”. And the other missionaries that were so…”I’m so good and do everything right and judge everyone else for the littlest things” was disgusting. It was pathetic and juvenile and I couldn’t wait to leave. I Thank god I was able to smoke weed while I was on my mission or I woulda lost it lol

[@rolllimbo973]

amazing panel and podcast, always on point john!

[@jessicabrown2117]

What a team! !

[@mormonskeptic6836]

14:15 saying the quiet part out loud. The difference is starting from a conclusion to accept the dogma, or to follow where the data lead.

[@Kingdho]

Hi 👋 from non-LDS viewer. As a 4th gen non-religious person, this channel shows why my great great grandparents left their Anglican religion. It’s all mythology. However, LDS is worse than mythical silliness. JS was an obvious fraud and every day LDS insists otherwise LDS risks being outlawed everywhere outside USA.

[@TheSaintelias]

So god isn’t a god of “truth” he is a god is “feelings”. Religion requires faith, but it shouldn’t require the ignoring of verifiable facts.

[@mattmanning96]

I thought checking your brain at the door was a requirement for religion.

[@MarkHigbee]

(1 Cor 2:10-14) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[@TheSaintelias]

@markhigbee my point exactly. All feelings.

[@harlanurwiler7146]

In trying to assess "false prophets" and their alleged "sincerity" I believe one must consider their actions carefully rather than simply their words after the fact. In the case of Joseph Smith, it has been such a long time since he lived that we must rely more on historical context and the evidence of the things he did in life rather than his notes, writings, or claims still in circulation. One should also consider the scandalous events surrounding his assassination to gain further and deeper insight. 😊😊😊

[@Kingdho]

Nope.

[@padfootdoggy]

Amazing video!!

[@kentthalman4459]

It's also worthy noting that Dr. Harper also admits that contrary to JS's claim, the Mormon Masonic rites isn't ancient. You can read his comments on the Church's site.

[@wendymerrillperry9699]

I have the original book on at ebay. Love the book but times are love. Magnificent book.

[@noelhausler2911]

Joseph Smith Senior refused to join because a preacher had said his son Alvin had gone to hell. Alvin died in 1823. Richard Bushman on page 570 footnote 30 of Rough Stone Rolling wrote "All the circumstantial evidence not withstanding for an 1820 membership, the date of Lucy Smith's engagement with Presbyterians remains a matter of debate. It is possible that she did not join until later Palmyra revivals 1n 1824.

[@padfootdoggy]

Also sorry for being so sarcastic in the live chat

[@wendymerrillperry9699]

His story also evolves as he copies” different testimonial account circling at the time

[@mattmanning96]

Publishers will put out just about any book if they think it will make them money.

[@wild-west-willexplores7855]

I would say the descriptive words you use that change during multiple telling of an event is reasonable. Especially the more and more you tell the event. That is like a comedian’s set, the main story of it (punchline) doesn’t change, how you describe it with punctuation, mannerism’s etc gets tweaked as you go. However to change major facts of a story, time, place, people. That sounds like you can’t completely remember the first lie you told and also are in a need to continually bolster the effect of the story to keep people interested or cater to particular people. That’s my take on that any ways lol

[@Hallahanify]

He had to change it to fit the narrative he wanted at the time or to give himself authority he wanted at certain times.

[@TheSaintelias]

If JS vision changes weren’t reflected by on going changes in the BoM and teachings one could maybe explain the differences. The fact that the concept/doctrine of god went from one being to three is a death blow to first vision.

[@wolandbegemotazazello]

For many academic historians Brodie's approach is problematic. Her biography of Jefferson, for example, is not very highly regarded by scholars these days. Brodie’s work on Smith is important historically because it was one of the first empirical bios of Smith (there weren’t many for years after hers). It has been surpassed in the same way that Frederick Jackson Turner, while important, has been surpassed by current scholarship, particularly in their more nuanced approaches. There are varying approaches to history. One can, for example, take a emic approach, like Shipps, and bracket off the truth or falsity claims of Smith’s claims.

[@Songsofourown23]

Your view of Brodie s works on Thomas Jefferson is flawed. Brodie's work on Thomas Jefferson was what lead to the changed narrative about him with his relationship to Sally Hemmings and their children. So much so that Annette Gordon Reed wrote a foreword then another book based on Brodie's book. His current historians in his historic home Monticello changed the entire narrative based on the research from Brodie and Reed.

[@wolandbegemotazazello]

@@Songsofourown23 Not my view. I simply stated a fact, that Brodie’s work on TJ has been criticised extensively by historians. So has, by the way, the psychoanalytic or psychobiographical approach in general. If you prefer that I make a statement about this I can say that personally, I find a social and cultural psychological approach much more compelling that a Freudian one. So were Fromm and Erikson. By the way, during my postgrad sojourn I never heard Brodie’s works cited at all by professional historians or social scientists in seminars or tutorials.

[@KathyStrickland-nh9vx]

They wouldn't have to give explanations of questionable differences if this religion wasn't built on deception and lies.

[@bustindustin959]

Ugh, can't do 4 hours. Just cant do it

[@strangeclouds7]

I mean you don't have to watch do you

[@shanepratt3568]

Winston is perfect

[@pamelalugo1537]

🙏💜

[@wendymerrillperry9699]

I can hardly listen to the apologetic parts with the two dudes

[@EdwinaCross-p7s]

Historians have ways of working through accounts. Believing or unbelieving, a scholar or not a scholar, the evidence or not, Joe Smith or not? Oh, the triangulate! The Presbyterismismisiom Wesley Waters? No, not Joe Smith. He is so yesterday.

[@MarkHigbee]

(1 Cor 2:10-14) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[@BridgerCoburn]

W/ Dr. Steven Harper?? Why the clickbait dishonesty?

[@carano1997]

I’m a former Mormon and wish Mormon stories would stop being woke!