Married Gay Mormons Charlie Bird and Ryan Clifford Found Worthy of Sacrament and Callings | Ep. 1859

[@Mustardmanor]

So who knows how many other couples are excommunicated while this famous couple isnt? Seriously? How can people take the churcj seriously?

[@carminamoore2138]

Because they're besties with Emily Belle Freeman

[@jivajenmoreno-adams9984]

And who wants to join “Mean Girls” anyways 😂

[@t5l239]

Polygamy is next!

[@DeJaVuCa]

Too many people are leaving and taking their 10% with them. LD$ will change whatever they need to In order to gain keep/power & control.

[@DeJaVuCa]

​@@t5l239That is still a thing!! Polygamists all over our states- Especially utah! LD$/ FLD$/RLD$ Greatness going on in temples! mormonBrother just sealed/married to his third wife.

[@smallfairytales1231]

Until the pandemic, my lesbian partner and I attended church together, took the sacrament, and were ministers/visiting teachers. We were in West Jordan. A member of the stake presidency came to our home and welcomed me, and asked me to attend. He said that in his training, (this was September 2019), they were asked to be as inclusive as possible. He said, “just don’t be physically affectionate at church, but I would say that to anyone. If someone is rude, talk to me. You can comment in class and contribute.” My partner had always had callings in the ward, and been there for over 20 years. We left the church after the musket fire speech.

[@hturt4]

“Just don’t be physically affectionate…” I would’ve shown him the door at that point. LDS meetings are rife with straight couples holding hands, arms around each other, scratching backs, etc. because they worship straight marriage. Double standards create division and second class status. Not Jesus’s way.

[@srock7967]

Can you share a link for the musket fire speech? I don’t recall that?

[@johngagon]

@@srock7967 The accurate reporting might be paywalled but it's on the SL Tribune and Deserest News and the slate: "Mormon gay rights: A shocking speech by Jeffrey Holland ..." if you simply google "Mormon LGBT musket" or maybe specific: "Holland musket fire 2021", I bet it comes up.

[@johngagon]

@@srock7967 youtube: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4fXaImGmpesnqs

[@wardified8566]

​@@srock7967 kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4fXaImGmpesnqssi=QTsbbMlR6KLz72fn 😊

[@hturt4]

This doesn’t signal a change in the church, it emphasizes the reality of stake president/bishop roulette and celebrity/wealthy privilege.

[@ericharry23]

EXACTLY

[@SheBecameVisible513]

Same thing for women, Kate Kelly gets excommunicated, Carol Lynn Pearson, praised. Double roulette standard. The church needs to make a stand and correlate it. I can’t wait to watch Hansen renounce his membership, he’s disgusting

[@yeshalloween]

Such a good point about Kate Kelly and Carol Lynn Pearson. I like Carol Lynn Pearson, from what I can observe at least, but I have noticed she regularly gets a pass.

[@meandersandmusings]

Who is. Hansen?

[@othersheep5491]

Jacob Hansen. The one who brought this to the front burner in his podcast. He is highlighted several times in this podcast, if you don’t feel like searching him. Everyone guard your boiling chips! Grandma always said, Simmer.

[@meandersandmusings]

@@othersheep5491 thankyou

[@bargeiger50]

Carol Lynn Pearson isn’t gay, her ex husband was gay. But she is an avid LGBT supporter.

[@erikcastaneda]

I’ve had this conversation with family and friends many of them. All of them ask if the church changed its stance would I come back. I would never.

[@kimgoeckeritz6320]

Can I just ask a legitimate question? Would this be a headline if Charlie Bird wasn’t semi-famous? Or could it be that his ward/ stake in Alpine are all super wealthy and the church is afraid of losing a crap ton of tithing if they don’t let this ward/stake do their thing? I guess my question is…would a kid in Idaho, or South America, or Magna get the same treatment? Or is this just people with a lot of money getting to make their own special rules?

[@curthoaldridge507]

Yes, to answer your question. But also this is unprecedented territory for the Church. They may have to address it. No better person to address it, than their new hire for head of PR. 🌈

[@hturt4]

Bingo! Nailed it! Exactly.

[@othersheep5491]

This kid from Idaho didn’t get the sweet treatment. Before we pop the cork, let’s see what happens. I remember thinking you could hold hands at BYU in our recent past. Did that last a week?

[@rebeccacall7348]

Those definitely are factors.

[@Marc010]

Did the church have much to say about Marie Osmond's child having a same sex marriage? Nope.

[@paullanderman7693]

John and Gerardo, my own excommunication occurred Oct 23, 2003, long before any of the changes, but the feelings are still poignant and strong. I feel so badly for the many many people like me who essentially remain in the shadows.

[@johnp.1460]

Without commenting on the couple or Charlie’s apparent past hypocrisy, their wedding - while terrific - also feels like a celebration of privilege. While I would love to believe that the Mormons have started to see the light and become more open, I have no faith in their integrity or ability to simply do the right thing. Kyle appropriately described it as the opening of Pandora’s box. The elephant in the room is that even if this is a cultural shift and a doctrinal opening, what of all of the other LGBTQ members who have been so tragically mistreated? What of all of the gay suicides, ostracization from families, spiritual and mental abuse by the church, physical abuse by a society that adheres to Salt Lake’s homophobia, physically violent BYU conversion therapy, the Q15’s incessant lies on the church’s role in that atrocity, and the slow terrorizing experience of simply growing up as LGBTQ in a Mormon family?

[@Mustardmanor]

Id love for the church to be more inclusive. But it doesn't explain why they weren't inclusive before. As you mentioned. So to me it is still very problematic. I imagine they'll lose a lot of members over this who are older and set in stone and maybe they're hoping to keep some of the younger members leaving over this issue? Sacrifice the older generations to save the next ones?

[@gelsomina8438]

The atrocity is to accept the evil behavior, include it and love it for the sake of justifying it. So do these people mean that the tendency of ped%ofilia should be also accepted? Included? What a crazy world.

[@starlingswallow]

Yes!! These are my thoughts exactly!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

💯 There is nothing they can do to repent of all that.

[@Mustardmanor]

@@gelsomina8438 the fact that you compare pedos to consenting adults is astonishing... You were a general authority pre 1990 for sure in a past life.

[@ROMAHAUS]

What Bernie Madoff was to finance, the Mormon church is to religion. OF COURSE they are going to hire an LGBTQ spokesperson, of course they are going to start honoring transgender people and allow them to get baptized and recognize their pronouns/new name. This shouldn’t be shocking to anyone. It’s a corporation, they’re making billions of dollars (so many Mormons wear that as a badge of honor btw) and why anyone is surprised that they are doing these things is beyond me. My husband who is still a member was shocked when I showed him the episode of the trans woman who got baptized in Arizona….he was shocked! I keep trying to explain to him that the Mormon church should win an Oscar every year for moving the goal posts. When will people wake up? 😔🤷‍♀️

[@ChunkyLover1983]

Well said! I could not agree more.

[@smallfairytales1231]

Could be. I’m sure they have seen the study that 20% of LDS college students are not straight. That affects virtually every Mormon family, whether the parents know it or not.

[@charlesbrown6364]

Great episode! I hate the honor code. It almost expelled me because my girlfriend’s roommates didn’t like her and went to the HC office and told her I was sleeping with her. It almost ruined our lives. Lucky for her, she was graduating in 2 weeks with a 4.0 GPA over 4 years. I had to meet with the Bishop every week for 4 months until I graduated. It was ridiculous, given my then girlfriend was now doing her PhD across the county and we were doing it long distance for a while. It was the most ridiculous thing ever!

[@curthoaldridge507]

Sorry 😢

[@Moksha-Raver]

The BYU Honor Code Office is to be feared as much as the Inquisition was feared by medieval European people. It is a source of great and uncontrolled wrongdoing.

[@aBrewster29]

HC is a witch hunt and a corruption of love and accountability. And they try to credit the HC with BYU’s specialness.

[@jivajenmoreno-adams9984]

Any USA accredited university would denies a student credits/degrees etc because of sexual/gender identity/orientation should lose 1st: national accreditation and 2nd tax exempt status.

[@LopsidedLiahona]

@@jivajenmoreno-adams9984 Along with any grants, federal funding, etc. 100%.

[@sachamo100]

It’s like moving deck chairs around on the Titanic!

[@kennethbailey9853]

65 years of age and I had to live a single life. I cant help but wonder what the love I needed would have been like. 😢

[@joshcoffinator]

What a great panel! So glad to see Kyle and Jillian on here, they added so much value to the episode. And Gerardo great throwbacks to other episodes to show the differences! This is such a tough topic, it’s SAD for all the couples and individuals in the past who were punished for these very same things, not to mention those who have died because of church disciplinary actions 😞. It’s also a possible positive for gay married couples NOW to get these opportunities but we have to recognize the privilege Charlie and Ryan have as white influencer men in Utah with big huge LDS followings, many other gay couples of other demographics would NOT get this preferential treatment. The church is in for another PR nightmare here and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. How will the pearl-clutching apologists and the young “progressive” influencer Mormons going to handle it if the church actually has the guts to discipline them?? Or will they just get a pass? How lucky for them and how unlucky for thousands of those who have come before them! 😞 💔

[@ericharry23]

unfortunately imo as an ex mormon gay man i am beyond hurt by the church & what it’s done to my community the damage has been done so these new changes will never erase the pain idc if the church validates and accepts lgbtq ppl fully in the future it’s too late due to all the queer lives lost and queer ppl leaving the church. however i am so thankful for this podcast ❤

[@livilivinglife]

Praying for everyone mentioned in this episode, my heart broke.

[@AntonioAFelizJr]

Congratulations on the very revealing and important work you are doing! When I wrote Out of The Bishop's Closet, I knew that this new church atmosphere you are reporting on here would be inevitable. In my third book, Becoming Open Souls, I told the story about how a group of Melquezedic Priesthood holders dedicated the world for the preaching of the restored gospel in 1985 on the highest point of Griffith Park in Los Angeles, CA. We'd done that because at that time, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints policy was to not preaching the restored gospel to LGBT+ people. All the friends who committed suicide because of dynamics you've reported here are probably rejoicing in their world as I saw in vision when the U.S. Supreme Court in 2015 created the current law. Blessings to you on your work!

[@matthewlake1910]

Always a great episode when Kyle is on! His insights are so thoughtful and clear.

[@sinisterhug1394]

As a trans woman, I agree so much with Julie’s comment, of the constant struggle of feeling to either be part of the church, or who you really are inside. I remember being in High School, during sacrament meeting & listening to how “evil & sinful” it is to be queer, & constantly having suicidal ideation. My life has never been better leaving the church thankfully. It’s good to be on the other side & seeing that I’m not a monster 😅

[@georgemartin1383]

I'm an Iraq war veteran and Anti-Democracy, Pro-Christian Monarchy supporter. I will pray for you.

[@jamielikestrees3202]

​@@georgemartin1383 I will pray for you at a gathering of friends and family that you will be able to love people for who they are.

[@redding20111]

Community of Christ accepts gay marriage 100%

[@rodneybosborne]

Much respect to this distinguished panel and John for taking on this critical issue. Great to see some loosening locally. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely the message from the pulpit will change, at least until Oaks is gone.

[@perryekimae]

As the third member of the panel of people Charlie and Ben are talking about in QftC s3e1, I will admit to not having met them. However, it turns out that even our speculations were true. I don't think there was any overreach in what we claimed. I'm honestly happy for Charlie, that he has been able to carve a place for himself in this tradition. My only wish is for the same grace to be extended to all LGBTQ members of the church who want to remain affiliated with it. Kick the bigots to the proverbial curb.

[@kennethbailey9853]

There was no such acceptance in my youth !😢😢😢Im so happy for Your Generation if You receive any love. 😊

[@williamwoodruff1566]

Go to church on Sunday buddy and tell me how accepted you feel

[@denisekeeran9883]

So good to see Gerardo again!

[@othersheep5491]

Damn straight! You can’t put the sacred cow back in the genie bottle any easier than I could go fly a lake. When I left the church in 85 due to their gay hunting, I wished that in the future there would be a group like this to work in cooperation and harmony to help everyone unwanted and unloved have a voice and representation to those whom I was sure would see the numbers and destroyed families, know God’s love and inclusivity, and act with compassion and empathy. We all deserve high 5s and well placed metaphorical butt pats for our love, hope, and effort which got us this far. It’s my prayer to Heavenly Mother that the brethren don’t muck this up, and go push this sacred cow in a ditch. Amen. Padam Tell ‘em you are on the Lord’s errand, John. When they excommunicated me in 2002ish, the younger half of the high council was crying. Those not crying said that if gay marriage were legal, it would be different. That’s what they hid behind then. Who’d a guessed Multnomah would lean so hard conservative in the Pacific Northwest? But the stories are coming in. The church’s truth claims are in shambles. It’s time for the scapegoating to stop. Exactly what do they intend to hand over to Jesus when he shows up unexpectedly?

[@townsendv58]

Whilst itvis a tiny step in the right direction, there is dtill a long way to go. Hats off to the gay community that have managed to find a way to stay. However, there is so much sadness over those that have lost their lives.

[@MexiKen516]

Definitely a desperation move. I still have a hard time understanding why anyone in that community would want anything to do with the church. Something about they draw near me with their lips, but far from me in their harts. We all know where the leaders' harts are. I guess there are Black, Hispanic, Asian and LGBTQ Trump supporters. Some people just have to find out the hard way.

[@vmofu7317]

Like it’s not only a personal betrayal imo, but a slap in the face to everyone

[@MexiKen516]

@@vmofu7317 agreed.

[@dawnStone-p6g]

As a bi sexual ex Mormon who was raised in the Church, the Church will never accept it. Especially temple marriage. I don’t see it.

[@MexiKen516]

Yep

[@chlyri]

i think it depends on who's left in leadership when all the boomers that are holding their bigotry in clenched fists die out. will they be more willing to watch the church die with them, or make changes to try to save any part of it?

[@jivajenmoreno-adams9984]

That’s what I thought in 1978 when the racist church I grew up in suddenly allowed Black Members with “mark of Cain” to hold priesthood keys.

[@monongahelacats]

As a straight nevermo, I don’t understand why anyone in the queer community would even want to be Mormon. Yes, the LDS Church should treat everyone with kindness, but being queer and Mormon doesn’t make sense. It’s like parallel lines that never intersect.

[@sarahaas183]

It would just change the entire fundamental aspects of our belief in the plan of salvation involving creation sanctioned between man and women

[@ladrac198]

I'm ex-Mormon, and I have to say that I don't agree with Gerardo's decision to attend the ward and make sure Charlie and his husband took the sacrament. Doing that without their knowledge or consent and then talking about it on a public platform feels very wrong to me. I guarantee that if the LDS church sent someone to watch for guests coming to the Mormon Stories studio without your knowledge, you'd have a problem with it. My mom follows Charlie and in a story yesterday he said it has made him feel incredibly unsafe, more unsafe than he ever felt as a gay male growing up in Mormonism... so just take that into consideration. You've caused extreme anxiety and unsafe feelings for someone.

[@amazinmaven]

This happened because they accused Gerardo of lying and "making up" stories that they knew were perfectly true. If you're going to accuse people of lying, don't be mad when they make sure to get proof next time to make sure they're being "honest." Easy. 🤷

[@deah6558]

@@amazinmavenwho accused him? Spying on others is wrong and unethical

[@smallfairytales1231]

Mormon stories has sunk very low and I am unfollowing them as well as Latter-gay stories, and Thrive. Saying that they lied and so we are then going to out them is something I cannot support. Mormon Stories has a large platform, which they tout, and used it to hurt someone. I know very little about what Charlie did , but it does not matter. Spying and putting them on blast is damaging, wrong, shameful, and egocentric. This formerly Mormon lesbian couple will not support it.

[@andrewjones2280]

Maven, you're on the "wrong side of history," so to speak. Gerardo, you, mormonstories, are just wrong on this one (not all the time, just this one).

[@lizalejandra5527]

I agreed. We are nobody to come and talk publicaly about what others do. If this channel is about bringing stories from one side, why they don’t bring the other side to talk? Also if this couple on the story wanted to get married, is not that lds church is allowing that, they have decided to do that for whatever reason. If they are confused or whatever, leave them and you carry about your spirituality instead of look at others and judge a whole group. I think this is what they do. Generalize in many ways with negativity towards a group.

[@curthoaldridge507]

Such an amazing episode ❤️ Thank you all! Makes me wonder how the adult members, who have remained celibate and “chaste” as their only choice are feeling right now 😢

[@fordfairlane6580]

I bet some of those who have been celibate feel like the church has ruined their lives.

[@chriswigman4218]

Sweet, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Gay Saints...

[@merdaybow]

My wife and I met in relief society. After confessing to the bishop off and on for 2 years, we decided that we wanted to be together out of the church instead of staying in the church. We were offered a disciplinary council or excommunication. We chose excommunication. We've lived happily for 22 years out of the church and have 3 wonderful kids together. No way would I want to continue to be a part of that religion with how they feel about us. I don't understand how any lgbtq+ people would want to stay in the church and serve for them. You can find your own community and spirituality without being in a cult.

[@aerotrooper]

There will always be gay people being born into the church and they need it to be a safe place. Change is best and most real when it comes from the inside. I think we should praise allies and LGBT people who stay in the church to challenge the lies said about them. I think it’s honorable.

[@Mel-ry5jc]

Wow. Gotta wonder about all those folks who donated their life savings to fight proposition 8 will feel when they get a whiff of this…!

[@junetteharper4642]

And their kids college funds…

[@Randal0011]

Its always better to shine a light than to keep things secret. The Church already knows this is happening.

[@Mrs_Solis]

Thank you so much for this episode! The 4 host has been so informative and knowledgeable.

[@ethanwagstaffwx]

While I am a gay man and have left the Mormon church, I like getting episodes like these to see how gay Mormons live in the church. And I have been curious about this couple too and how they’re doing in the church since they’re married. But sadly it has to sacrifice a little bit of their privacy. Yes they are “famous” and are very active on social media. I thought these guys were gonna be on the show. I think the ultimate issue with the current scandal is really the Mormon church. If they never had any of their policies or past policies or practices against gay members then this situation wouldn’t even be relevant. And I believe Mormon Stories is still on track with its informed consent process. And I don’t think John Dehlin meant any harm to Charlie Bird or his Husband. Still love you guys! ❤️

[@meandersandmusings]

Regarding Charlie and Ryan hopefully contributing positively to the debate on same-sex acceptance etc, this has to be applauded but I hope that when your beautiful lady colleague I am sorry but I am very unwell and just can't recall her name!) said something to the line of "if they can change bishops' thoughts, maybe they can change God's opinion as well". Absolutely no need. As currently the Moderating Bishop of my church (not LDS, although we have welcomed a fair few dispirited former Mormons, over the last 3 decades, into our congregations on every continent on the planet, many, like myself, as gay as pink bunting on a tent!), God has NEVER had an issue with we weird LGBTQIA2S+ people. We are loved by our heavenly Father, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. As you all said, it is the rules of not only the Mormon, but most 'churches' that have historically segregated, accused and chucked out queer folk because those 'rules' are neither God-created, nor even specific religious books ordained. No, they are simply examples of the many human failings in bigotry, homophobia, hypocrisy and double standards that we men and women have enacted over the centuries. To paraphrase Jesus the Christ "when 2 or 3 are gathered in the name of the I AM, I Shall be in the midst of them. They will ignore all I taught, all the Spirit of God continues to inspire, will form a committee and do just what the heck they want to"!!! We have ALL been made in the image of our heavenly Father/Mother God, faulted by imperfect practices sure, but nevertheless a part of God lying within us. So reject anybody, even us queer folk, and they reject God. Thank You for your fabulous podcast. I have learned more about Mormonism from you guys and Centre Place than all my higher education (& cheaper and quicker 😂) so bless you all. Rt Rev Dr Barry Rathbone DD Hons (Cantab), MA, MAR, MIOEE, KGCSJ(OM) Moderating Bishop The Int'l Community of St John the Divine (ICSJ) Poole, Dorset, UK

[@othersheep5491]

This is a spirited lot! They go straight to the root. They are well researched and informative, and a lot of fun. Best wishes to you and your congregation and all those you help and inspire.

[@user-es1ub9ld5c]

I’m now even more traumatized knowing women don’t even need a court. Stay dog for sure

[@monongahelacats]

I’m an ally and a nevermo, but have gay friends. They are beautiful people. This hurts my heart. Why can’t the church stay out of peoples’ bedrooms’? Gay people are not predators. They are not perverted. They do not have an agenda to make your kid gay. Your kid will be gay or not if they are born that way. It’s genetic, just like some people have blue eyes or blond hair. It’s time to do better, LDS Church. Stop causing so much hurt and divisiveness. Enough already!

[@jivajenmoreno-adams9984]

Thank You

[@josephjanson4753]

Pretty sure they are not doing anything simply because Charlie bird has a wide audience on instagram. If they were nobodies, it would be the same old discipline. They don’t want the bad attention.

[@curthoaldridge507]

Very true. But the implications of that would devastating for the church.

[@jamiemelin1993]

My nephew has been married for 3 years and he and his husband have been disfellowshipped but allowed to wear garments and take sacrament.

[@curthoaldridge507]

@@jamiemelin1993 wow 😯

[@ZzzzZz-pk2yq]

Big fan of all that MSP and the Open Stories Foundation does, but I have to say that showing up at Charlie’s sacrament meeting feels like too much of an overstep. You guys do a lot of good work, but can’t support this particular move.

[@lefty24hrs]

Regardless of intention, have you considered to any degree what impact this episode may have had on the couple and their leadership? If they're targeted or harassed as a result, will you take responsibility for it, John and Gerardo? Do you even care about the pain you may inflict on others with your careless, selfish actions?

[@EchoesfromtheTabernacle]

Thank you for having these important conversations about possible progress with perhaps the most marginalized segment of society and mormonism.

[@luannwinters9345]

I once lived in a ward where a non-member was given a calling. It was years before I found out he was not a member.

[@bettycastillo9111]

Starts at around 10:50

[@joseejohnstun4641]

Thank you! 😂

[@merrellmedia]

Thanks

[@derrickfolkmanman]

Betty, you should wear a cape because you're a hero.

[@lovebaileymarin]

I grew up with Charlie. I’m not surprised at all that he not only famous, but changing things inside the church. He’s beautifully powerful.

[@melissagarcia8169]

So I haven’t been to church and I don’t believe in it but my family and I do serve the members when they live or go all in and decorate our trunk for trunk or treat. We are very open with the bishop and members about where we stand (we love the community, it’s a part of us we love to serve and be friends with people who understand where we come from BUT we in no way want to attend nor do we believe it to be true by any means). Anyway the bishop asked if I would like to have a calling in the activities committee. He explained that I help a lot (even have giving the sisters yoga classes for relief some relief society activities). So he thought it would be fitting The wild part is he said he understands where I stand, I don’t have to be set apart, they’ll sustain me in sacrament meeting but I don’t have to attend. He expressed he just wanted me to be comfortable and that they really need some help. I told him I could but that I would have to talk to the chair of the committee because there would be some activities I would not feel comfortable planning and that I will not attend so if that was alright with her and him then I’ll accept. He seemed really excited and even encouraged me to be up front with the other ladies about where I stood. It was pretty cool. I do miss being a part of that so I was kind of excited. I appreciated that our meeting didn’t even start with a prayer or anything just a chill conversation. I even asked him how I could have a calling but not be “set apart” bc that was pretty odd for me especially growing up in the church. He said it would be a calling but technically an assignment. So all the women including myself would have the same title but they wouldn’t know it wasn’t an official calling. So kind of odd but also kind of cool. I’m hoping to have fun but also low key modernize stuff we don’t have to only do gender focused activities hopefully we can do workshop and baseball outings or something (The priesthood have video games and football games for theirs so…..)

[@yeshalloween]

Why’s it cool though? Coming from an exmo who also got asked by the bishop to be on the activities committee.

[@melissagarcia8169]

I thought the way he handled it was cool I think respecting my boundaries and still seeing that I want to help serve for potentially making some more service activities or more leisure activities for women in particular is cool. Giving someone that doesn’t even believe in Christ some kind of power to make decisions in a church I formally attended. I’ve been out for three years it’s not like I want to come back. If I feel like they’re trying to use me or get me back Im immediately out (but he and a lot of members already know this about me) . I’ve been outspoken with members whenever we’ve had activities we’ve attended .I am one of the ex Mormons that don’t have a problem being around members or even assisting to help make small changes within wards. Honestly I’m kind of excited to start making some of those changes. I was upfront with him and told him I will have the freedom to renounce my calling at any time I start feeling uncomfortable so it’s not negative for me tbh. I’m in Ga the culture here isn’t like Utah. One of my closest friends and his partner were openly in a relationship for like 2 years and held callings (the bishop knew) it was until they got a new presidency that they got disfellowshipped .

[@wendymerrillperry9699]

So good that you showed the clips. So clarifying. Great Job. Love the guests! 😊

[@starlingswallow]

I understand that this is good, but I am so suspicious of the Mormon Church. This seems more of an opportunistic move (business move) instead of them truly realizing how much they've hurt people and changing with that in mind 😢 I think many are leaving the Church so they're freaked out, so this is their move to save face? Thoughts??

[@othersheep5491]

It’s ALL business. The 3rd option in the handbook allows for a nuanced bishop/stake president to NOT excommunicate (that’s what it is). It’s the 3rd, not first or second option. The local leadership can move the pendulum. Anti LGBTQ+ bishops & stake presidents have been on the hunt in searching for couples, many not even active, in order to excommunicate them. They are easy to spot. There has been a wave of hate. There is no big move by the general authorities other than this mini deferral to local leadership, and the new spokesperson whose past has been scrubbed. The q 15 are just watching to let the grass roots active membership follow their hearts. They don’t lead . They follow. They follow the money.

[@aerotrooper]

It’s possible they could be realizing the hatred was wrong. Now as being out and normal in society has been so prevalent they can no longer uphold their beliefs that gay people are depraved and God knows what else they told themselves.When a young person leaves the church because of anti-LGBT policies I’m sure they take friends, family and even coworkers with them more-so than ever before. Being a believer and being anti-gay is an egregious error most all can see. It was always just a matter of when and it’s 2024.

[@shches8480]

Wow this is super encouraging! It's a shame that these important developments are kept secret and out of view from the mainstream LDS community. I feel these practices again reinforce my ambivalence regarding 'bishop [or insert appropriate ecclesiastical authority] roulette.' It's fantastic for those like Charlie and Ryan who attend progressive or forward thinking wards. But what about those same LGBTQ identifying members who happen to attend more regressive wards?

[@KP-nf4yl]

I’m quite struck by the fact that both Gillian Orr (sp?) & Jacob Hansen used the same word in reference to the LDS Church’s behavior on this issue: “confusing.” When the church’s response to LGBTQ relationships ranges among everything from acceptance/callings/sacrament to excommunication, it’s no wonder “confusing “is the operative word here. All churches by their very nature can be confusing, but one would hope that the LDS Church’s policies, *at least* in a broad sense, would be consistent across every ward, stake, area, etc. I’m also quite struck by how this confusion creates so much fear and uncertainty - which is in itself ironic as the Church purports to offer freedom from fear and uncertainty. Paradoxes and ironies abound here and make me very sad for the members of the Church. (I’m a Never Mormon btw, and I grew up virtually in the shadow of the Emerald City, a.k.a. the Washington, DC Temple. I remember well the battle over the “Surrender Dorothy” graffiti on an overpass with a view of the Temple.😉) Thanks for another great episode - bravo!

[@elleBwsr]

It is frankly ridiculous that anyone feels compelled to not take the sacrament based upon a directive from priesthood leadership. As a transgender woman I have actively attended and freely partaken of the sacrament and attended relief society for more than 18 months and have never been challenged, questioned or disciplined in anyway. I have also voluntarily bore my personal testimony multiple times. If anything though I don't feel any animosity my bishop who is fully aware of my situation basically ignores me.

[@chlyri]

you realize you just got lucky, right? unfortunately, the foundation of the church is against you.

[@ApolloTheDerg]

I am a bit blown away at the concept of being approached out of the blue with such news when being inactive. I am surprised I have not been approached, but to be fair I don’t associate with any local members and I am hardly known.

[@Marc010]

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room: the church is losing the battle against younger people leaving religions in great numbers over social issues. This isn't any different than the Catholic Church's sudden "blessing" of same-sex couples. Why? Because they suddenly love gay people, or they fear the financial loss in the future?

[@monongahelacats]

The Catholic Church is bleeding numbers so they had to do something. But Pope Francis is more liberal than any other pope has been. Conservative Catholics can’t stand him.

[@jaymesc1018]

I think you crossed the line in this episode and engaged in behaviors that you would not appreciate having them done to you.

[@caseyjude5472]

Longest running lgbtq podcast in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD! ❤❤❤

[@rd76pag]

Thank you for this very informative episode. I don't know if my family who still in the church will ever change their minds. I am very glad to hear that there are bishops and stake presidents that support gay couples in the church.

[@tracey7241]

Going to their church to spy on members was gross. I'm a never Mormon and an atheist, but I think that was super inappropriate and disrespectful.

[@mormonstories]

Gerardo explains why he chose to verify Charlie’s behavior in the episode. I suggest walking a mile in his foot steps before judging him.

[@andrewjones2280]

​@mormonstories your response is completely and utterly devoid of any thought. You are such a huge part of the problem.

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

@andrewjones2280 And sadly your response is not much better. It's good to explain why you believe it was a bad response because otherwise I have no idea why should I see it as wrong

[@ammabee3693]

How exciting. Institutions can change

[@lisapurplehayes]

Especially when their bottom line is threatened.

[@austinhodges1031]

I fear this kind of attention is going to stir the pot and bring heavy handed decisions from temple square forcing the hand of the stake they are in. I'm also a gay and (soon to be) married man attending church with my husband and we have kinda skirted under the radar. I'm very interested to see what this news and attention brings when media outlets pick it up and run with it. This is going to cross someones desk at church HQ who takes issue with it exactly like the debacle at BYU. I appreciate the coverage because ultimately people need to know and this is the kind of pressure that promotes change, but I fear that it will get worse before it gets better. I really think that in the next few weeks/months Charlie and Ryan are going to find themselves in church court because someone up high takes issue with this. I hope I'm wrong, I hope that things change for the sake of me and my family. Time will tell.

[@wendymerrillperry9699]

It’s forcing the church’s hand. They need to figure it out

[@fordfairlane6580]

There needs to be consistency throughout the church in how gay people are treated.

[@othersheep5491]

Congratulations. I hope for the best outcome regarding the church for you, but mostly wish you the best lives ever together no matter what. Don’t miss out on love. Never knowing what you are facing regarding the church is maddening. Best of luck with your roulette wheel ! They make gamblers of us all.

[@lrsvalentine]

What calling does Charlie have?

[@darlenewoolf6767]

The Dusty Johns episodes were some of the first MS episodes I watched. They absolutely broke my heart. Big reason why I started to question the "goodness" of the church.

[@MegaJohn144]

Doesn't the evidence that you can see for yourself make you question the "goodness" of the church?

[@user-es1ub9ld5c]

In the Catholic Church we are told it’s a mystery And that is supposed to stop your question.

[@xxxgabaxxx]

But what would the bishop do? Sit next to them and prohibit them to take the sacrament?

[@mormonstories]

For most faithful members, all it takes is to be told not to by a Bishop. It's rare that they would not comply.

[@valerienelson3296]

Not being Morman I have seen their commercials over the years that seem to be about love & acceptance to all. False advertising? Happy to see progression but I think all deserve public apologies. My first thought is how many lives might have been saved had these policies changed with the times.❤

[@johnnyonthespot1665]

The Churches total current assets, according to the SL Trib run about 29 Billion. The Catholic Church, around for 2000 years and with a membership of 1.29 Billion, has assets estimated at 10-15 Billion. In short, the Church does not give a flying rats behind about any group, area states or countries tithing.

[@DuchessChau]

You know what's always funny to me? People putting their relationship in the public sphere via photos or podcasts, then getting upset when the public sphere comments on the relationship.

[@fordfairlane6580]

Exactly!

[@othersheep5491]

I love ‘em, but he wrote a book. He posts frequently. That’s spectacular. That’s great. But a community acting like he’s just been outed and the SCMC hasn’t already creeped, and aren’t creeping is juvenile and naive. I’d like to see these guys band together tighter like we had to do to even survive the Oaks and Holland years at BYU. Maybe the church’s new spokesperson can help bring the whole community together 🤣😂🥲 I salute Gerardo for having the fortitude to go see for himself, for his own integrity. His date was a little high profile (love her), but Gerardo is new to church dating! I’m so glad he produced this. And yeah, the privilege is real. Maxwell’s silver hammer didn’t fall on my head for decades when my father very intentionally gave the them the signal. I’m glad he did, because Transparency has its privileges too.

[@jenniferbate-mz3yl]

This gives me so much hope that the Church is maybe realising that we are ALL special sons and daughters of Heavenly Father and he loves us regardless of sexuality and gender. I’m not an actual active member due to my disabilities, but I have always hoped that the church would realise that despite of who you are and or the choices you make, we are all loved. And that’s what should be at the forefront of the church. “As I have loved you, love one another”.

[@lifeaccordingtotheo9643]

In reality, they are realizing people are leaving in the thousands due to how they treat lgbt people so they have to change in order to keep their funding coming in...the same thing happened with POC receiving the priesthood. Members had to protest.

[@MexiKen516]

Why is it that a church that claims to have the gift of prophecy is always running about 40 years or more behind what society has already deemed as socially acceptable? Blacks having the Priesthood comes to mind. Is it at all possible that they are not actually prophets but rather are looking at their profits?

[@curthoaldridge507]

Agree with you ❤️ Question. Why are you not a member because of your disabilities? What does that mean?

[@jenniferbate-mz3yl]

@@curthoaldridge507 I’m an inactive member. I’m baptised and on the records but don’t attend due to not being able to be in large groups of people PTSD and anxiety on top of an immune disease that makes me very fatigued all the time. Just some examples I have many more illnesses and mental heath issues too.

[@farawilliams9707]

He also wrote out $42,000 in checks that bounced!!! Still NO bishop’s court.

[@meaganbarberry1240]

I was surprised that y’all didn’t hit on the family connection between Ryan and the Beestons (very popular Mormon influencers and KZbinrs) and how this may have also played into how their stake reacted to their wedding.

[@glennahoki6476]

I watched the live stream a little earlier, and the subject matter and questions you have about inconsistencies in how each ward and Stake in the Mormon church treat LGBTQ members are valid and need to be asked and discussed. I very much identified with the shock that was expressed hearing about how differently some gay members are treated compared to others and how that is related to the pain that comes when your own experiences have been more negative. That doesn't excuse going into someone's personal, sacred space, that should be safe,with the sole intent to expose to the world things that you either don't like or don't understand. That is a vile form of stalking! I don't care if you like, don't like, know or don't know that person, what you did was wrong and feels like a very cruel way to tear someone down and make them feel unsafe. It doesn't even matter if what you are trying to expose is wrong or not as long as what they are doing is not harmful to others. The fact that others are talking about the personal, spiritual choices of anyone else does not make this right either! It makes me feel sick to my stomach realizing that my LGBTQ loved ones are not safe from anyone, whether they are religious or not. There are kinder, safer ways to approach this discussion.

[@exmo__morty]

Thanks! 🎉 ❤

[@mormonstories]

You're welcome 😊

[@DFProductionsNow]

I don't understand why people need validation after they have been 'excommunicated' from an intuition that will never take you seriously? If this is the real church of Christ... They should have known long time ago what steps to take and how to take them. It seems every time they're under pressure by society, changes are done. The God i know doesn't make mistakes. If anything... We're part of a bigger plan, they don't even know. No one wakes up in the morning and says... I'm going to be gay. Be attacked, insulted, rejected by family, bullied and in some cases killed. No one.

[@budthebud9108]

Its like Tom Cruz and John Travolta not seeing one iota of Scientologys down side. They are celebrated and in a bubble

[@TreatsOnTheStreets]

The apostle Paul in the new testament frequently wrote letters and traveled to church communities in various places to correct them when they strayed from the truth they were baptized into. For almost this exact reason of practicing homosexuality with approval ( instead of repentance with love) . I'm assuming something similar may happen here.

[@Caroll-e9f]

I can not believe how low the church has sunk.

[@belinda35]

I can see the church, if they do allow this, to separate them and have them all in their own ward like they used to do the young adults (maybe they still do that?) so as not to "poison the minds of the young." But, if it comes from the higher ups that they won't allow this, what happens to the local leadership who clearly went against the handbook?

[@badasspeacemaker]

The mixed messages are really unkind and unhelpful for our Queer neighbors. The rest of us are not impacted as much.

[@jeffreylylemason]

Very well done, thank you

[@dawnStone-p6g]

Now is Charlie the Mormon church mascott? The church needs to embrace everyone that is LBGTQ and marriage in temple.

[@monongahelacats]

But why would any LQBTQ+ person want to be a member of the LDS Church? I ask as a nevermo. All I see is contempt from the members now.

[@sarahaas183]

That can’t happen, because in our religion, sealings involve both genders. They can already get married in thousands of places that can seal them for eternity

[@farawilliams9707]

I cannot accept this because I have been so brutally judged by a bishops court myself for having sex with a man as a divorced woman. So the action by that’s bishops court should be rescinded. Right?

[@lilyounggamer]

They just want lgbtq to pay them money too😅

[@armalite81]

Is there anywhere to verify the callings really happened?

[@w00f72]

Is it weird that I kind of don’t love this? I mean I love that they can have their religion and be themselves. But I hate that it means some great people like these will support such a hateful and harmful org. Wishing you all happiness regardless.

[@othersheep5491]

Many wish to change the ignorance and harm from within. And I definitely feel you.

[@w00f72]

@@othersheep5491 totally. It’s the same as people in abusive relationships thinking “I can fix them.” But can you and do you really want/need to?

[@othersheep5491]

That’s why I left. I couldn’t do it. Had enough abuse. Perhaps if forward thinking members who stayed, and are in leadership now, can act like these guys’ ward/stake, change can happen now. I’m not hopeful. Crushed too many times.

[@user-es1ub9ld5c]

Could this episode have any negative impact on their bishop or stake president?

[@mormonstories]

We addressed this. We hope not. But Charlie himself posts about being active.

[@ngatihine6072]

I didnt get exed after a 2 year gay relationship. I was away inactive for 10 years when i asked if i was exed he stake pres said no. And i could come back. WTH. went back but its not working out.

[@the.dirt.man.]

I have confusing feelings this episode. Having left BYU mainly for harassment around my sexuality, I'm happy others might have an easier experience moving forward, but it almost feels like my experience could be forgotten or dismissed. The issue of homosexuality was always a sticking point for family of mine, and I think this might get a lot of them to stay. Edit- having digested this further, I think I'm optimistic. My little sibling came out recently so maybe he'll have better treatment than I did. I can also use this to advocate for change at a local level.

[@laurenmckinnon5507]

“And God was like ‘I like Charlie.’” Lol love that!

[@DeJaVuCa]

Just why? Like putting a left glove on my right hand and trying to work! So sad.

[@cathycooper2163]

Dating doesn’t mean Charlie was not celibate. He has made a point several times that he “waited until marriage”. Saying he wasn’t celibate while dating is the kind of misinformation that is hurtful and wrong.

[@mormonstories]

Gay members of the church are also not supposed to do ANY kind of romantic activity, including kissing, etc. These are also against the law of chastity

[@PM_Suam]

​@@mormonstoriesit depends on were are you living at, I have gay friends in UK and Australia who can date, kiss, etc and go to the temple, but if I do it in Mexico I get in trouble

[@LMinem]

I wonder how long it will be before they are excommunicated now that they have achieved this level of notoriety.

[@ChristopherWood-n7q]

Though, I think this is a great episode on the topic. Just as it took a while before John Delihn was for talking about controversial topics, this celebration will most likely end in excommunication. I have seen more gay members want to see gay marriage accepted by the brethren, it is unlikely going to happen. Elder Holland has participated in many meetings where tears were shed, and the brethren empathize. You would have to hear what elder Holland said though which makes more sense than me sharing it.

[@doreen5674]

Why use his name and NOT qualify EXACTLY what HE said????.

[@MitchJackson-x9h]

I started moved back to the recorded section and it is fine

[@tawneenielsen4080]

But women can't sit on the stand...

[@Mabeylater293]

No but they can cook on it. JUST KIDDING!!! Just having a little fun. 🙏🙏🙏🙏💋

[@tawneenielsen4080]

@@Mabeylater293 for sure. And wear lipstick. And talk...but not too much

[@carschmn]

I for one am shocked that wealthy white cis gay men are getting a different standard.

[@alisonhawke1813]

Why can’t the church just focus on domestic abuse ( sexual, physical, financial, emotional) in marriage, RATHER than orientation?! If someone’s partnership is safe and healthy, who cares about sexual orientation?! Which is worse, intentional violation of safety and security through abuse acts, or who sleeps with who? I am glad there is seemingly some acceptance, but I would still argue accountability is missing. On both fronts actually. 😢

[@MegaJohn144]

It was interesting to hear about Dusty Bee Johns. We were FB friends a couple of years ago, then he just disappeared under the radar. Talk about confused. I'm confused about two conflicting points that you kept making. It the stopping of excommunication for same-sex marriage a sign that the church is loosening up and making progress, or it is playing favorites with wealthy and high-profile members? I know somebody who was a high-profile gay member back in the early 80's. His father was a bishop, and was known to all the church leaders in his local area: a large California city. He had sex with his companions in the mission field. The president knew about this because his companion, another high-profile member, told the president in his exit interview. Neither elder was excommunicated or sent home. Later, this man whom I know, actually wanted to be excommunicated, but his father used his connections up the ladder to Salt Lake to HALT and excommunication proceedings. Three months went by. No excommunication. My friend finally threatened that he would do some embarrassing public behavior that would cast the church in a terrible light, and the church finally relented and let him have his trial. But, the church didn't want this high-profile member going around as a young, happy, and successful gay ex-Mormon, so they offered him a "deal", which if he agreed to, they would have him back in the church in three to six months. The deal was to engage in a sham hetero marriage for the public view. For appearances. He didn't want back in the church, and he didn't want a marriage: real or sham, so he turned them down flat on any deal the church wanted to make. Bottom line: the church has been making deals and granting special favors to its elite for years, and I doubt that things are getting any different. But, I suppose that exposing their antics to sunlight and creating enough embarrassment might have an effect. You guys are hopeful, but I am doubtful. I don't want back in the church under any conditions, and neither does my anonymous friend.

[@smallmeadow1]

Something is not right. The upload is very slow; takes a long time to get out of black spot.

[@ChunkyLover1983]

The church leaders spoke with limited understanding on the LGBTQ issue. God can change his mind too you know................ 🤔

[@marcieperkins8631]

Why would you stalk Charlie and Ryan? I’m really disappointed, but I guess I’m not surprised you handled this that way. This feels very icky and inappropriate. Please understand this is not a way to make people feel safe. At all. Do better.

[@amazinmaven]

This happened because they accused Gerardo of lying and "making up" stories that they knew were perfectly true. If you're going to accuse people of lying, don't be mad when they make sure to get proof next time to make sure they're being "honest." Easy. 🤷

[@andrewjones2280]

"This happened because"...and then blame them, is so disingenuous. "Your" logic and "their" logic are really, really similar. Practically identical.

[@andrewjones2280]

Idk, from another perspective: if someone leaves the church, for reasons unrelated to sin, but then: members go film them committing sin, is that really a "callout"/does the that really show that the church is right that members only leave because they want to sin? And, does it justify the means to *prove* the *sin*?

[@alisamika2798]

Activities Committee is under the direction of the ward council. Youth, and even a non-member can serve as an Activities Chair.

[@toddgreener]

Ya know, even if the church became perfect, took accountability, and grew up to behave like a real spiritual movement, I still wouldn’t want to go back. If you’re not a part of the mind fuck, what does the church have to offer? Boredom? Other people’s germs?