Mormon Church on Trial for History Fraud | Ep. 1944

An oral argument at the tenth circuit was brought forth today in the case of Gaddy vs. The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The argument is that the church hid its true history and that it lied about its use of tithing funds. The church representative made some shocking statements in both of these regards. Join us today as we discuss the arguments with attorney Kolby Reddish.
Recordings of the oral arguments are available for download here: www.ca10.uscour...
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[@williamwallaceg2627]

Even if I don’t get a penny back, the fact they will have to admit they deceived/mislead the public, the fact they will have to admit what the truth is, the fact that they can no longer deceive people is what makes me pleased with the outcome.

[@Grandma_HoneyVA]

Yes! I wholeheartedly agree!!!!!!!!

[@aBrewster29]

Such a slimy argument from that lawyer. Evolution of a belief system is one thing. Actively suppressing inconvenient facts is another. It’s not rocket science.

[@_Free-Yourself_]

@@aBrewster29 pretty much. Trying to argue that knowingly withholding information from members is the same as having religious beliefs is quite insidious.

[@Weissguys6]

Wonderful news. It baffles the mind how this organization got away with this fraud for so long!

[@_Free-Yourself_]

It's honestly amazing that this is happening. This could turn out to be a very big deal for anyone affected by Mormonism.

[@michelecraig9658]

Yes, but really any fraud by any churches-- think Scientology (breaking stalking laws constantly) the Catholic Church that has things at the Vatican hidden by their members, ministers of megachurches using church funds for private planes and cars, and on and on.

[@charlottjohnson5271]

Cry me a river😢

[@_Free-Yourself_]

@@charlottjohnson5271 I am physically incapable of crying due to a rare medical condition called I Did Your Mum. Sorry to disappoint. 😘

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

💯

[@efrenbanawa3301]

This is a welcome news for me. I hope this issue of tithing against this church, I was a faithful member of this Mormon church and if my hard earned money which I paid as tithing to this church will be returned, oh dear Lord, let it come to pass.

[@annwilcoxen9637]

I couldn't focus on what the church's lawyer was saying. His voice and tone sent me right to conference. This guy is gunning for a position in the Q15.

[@thegigisup6]

These legal episodes are my favorite, this is ultimately how changes will happen, keep them coming!

[@BreannAntonsen]

Hope everything works out for the good. Thanks for keeping us all up to date

[@Catryx39]

My jaw literally dropped when I read the title of this video. That doesn’t happen ever to me. Interesting times.

[@Rcplanecrasher]

To hear the seer stone being discussed in a court of law is just wild. I hope they are held accountable but in this country I doubt the courts will be able to.

[@thegigisup6]

No matter the outcome, Gaddy is placing the point on the map, thank you!

[@ShellyKirkbride]

Affinity fraud would be a solid allegation

[@scottpurves]

I’m not embarrassed to say I want my money back.

[@starguy2718]

LDS lawyer: "The Mormon Church just makes up its own history, as it goes along. So there." So much for "the one true church", huh?

[@cariemorgangraff4829]

The lawyer said that?

[@ScribblerILM]

Yes, "who can say what happened 200 years ago? Perhaps Joseph did that. [There are many accounts and stories and who is to say which is the right one, or the one required to be believed in to met the requirement of church orthodoxy. No one person can dictate that for all church members each has their own views who knows who is right]" Um... your church is the one who claims to know. They are the ones who kept heaps of evidence, encouraged first hand record keeping, and spent countless hours of scholarship trying to form a cohesive narrative they claim to be the ONLY objective truth as declared by your god designated Prophet who directs the church. What do you mean whose to say what happened? What a wild U-turn.

[@DaisyPoodle]

@@ScribblerILM👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@LindaStuan]

I remember listening to President Hinckley stating no tithing funds would be used to build the mall. I remember thinking, yea right.

[@mrgrnjns1111]

The church literally has so much 💰 ney they could end poverty for every low income member....

[@randomname4726]

I think they actually have enough to end world hunger

[@DaisyPoodle]

…and they won’t. Don’t they remember that they can’t take it with them, or do they…

[@Grandma_HoneyVA]

I finally just saw The Reddish’s episodes last night!!!!!! I’m super excited that this is almost like an update from them ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Hi Julia .Always look forward to your insight.

[@2Legit2Quit766]

Could there be a topic about Family Trusts and the Mormon Lawyers would be a great episode! And the fraud that can happen when a trust is forged.

[@lalaellen]

WHAAAAAAAT????? !! I'm here for this.

[@avasgranb1]

Since LDS members are threatened with risking their membership and thus eternal salvation should they not tithe, their tithes could be seen as a forced payment?

[@larmaine]

Thank you so much for sharing and making it all easier to understand!

[@mormonstories]

Glad it was helpful!

[@leesacoles9154]

Honestly I want mine back too! 😊

[@leesacoles9154]

I meant 😖

[@sheliabryant3997]

The damned truth! No kidding. THIS IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. ALL. . ALL.

[@doveseye.4666]

Mormon book says take the disk and pass it, but the Bible says, take of and pass!😮

[@sheliabryant3997]

They are using their monopoly- game rules and argot to people WHO DON'T KNOW THE GAME - and the users KNOW the others DON'T KNOW and they use this disparity like BRASS KNUCKLES in a back alley ambush. Does this not show them for what they are? Anyone else would be criminalized for same plots. Every one involved KNOWS THIS! WHAT/WHO. DOES deserve defense here if not those who have been conned? Jesus's answer would be SIMPLE, UNEQUIVOCAL AND CRYSTAL CLEAR.

[@PatriciaNewhart]

Parents poring Kool Aid into their children's cups instead of milk because milk money went to pay tithes

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Brilliant!

[@markh.harris9271]

It's about effing time! 😮

[@sheliabryant3997]

Yep, John. Any way they want it.

[@sc766]

I hope they will get some of their money back. So much has been covered up and loed about! It makes me very frustrated when some members say these information was available ,that they knew etc. I would love to know what was available outside of the US in non English speaking countries, post communist countries etc. Why the missionaries are teaching whitewashed history etc? Anyway, lie upon lie...motto of the lds church !

[@sheliabryant3997]

Thanks!

[@kohlstrong]

This was incredible. Thank you soooo much for doing this, keeping us informed.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Finally!

[@jaylarsen67]

John used the ham & cheese metaphor , yet a more effective metaphor would have to say cheese-n-rice (jesus-christ).

[@sheliabryant3997]

Tithing is what you are REQUIRED. TO. PAY. in order to enter the temple and to AVOID ENTERING HELL. Tithing cannot be a DONATION if it is required. And ANY $ earned on TITHES being finagled as NOT BEING TITHE resource just plainly shows AN INTENTION TO BOONDOGGLE and deceive.

[@mattjohansson8931]

Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man? .... ummmmm nah not really. We asked the lord, and he didn't respond. So we took that as a yes... going forth doing that which you think is right. After all you can buy anything in the world with money ..... including good lawyers.

[@Cel_566]

Does the church have the right to knowingly mislead its members

[@unpredictable913]

Any chance of winning this case? Just curious...

[@carairn4201]

Very interesting.

[@mrgrnjns1111]

Terminology I s important they said uram and thuman because that's mentioned in the Bible. JS has to have something to tie the story to the Bible IMO...

[@jaylarsen67]

Could Julie, being a historian send a amicus (friend of court) verifying falseness of the argument by the church that head in the hat and seer stone references are abundant?

[@ericbyers235]

Where do we sign up?

[@silviayanes5128]

This will start a precedent!!!

[@Stephswoodpile]

🎉

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Hello all...

[@DaisyPoodle]

Hi Rose. I’m Lizzie.

[@bf9230]

Cool.

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

I'm 100% a strict constitutionalist. I'm 100% in support of freedom of religion. Here's what our supreme law says on the matter: Congress shall make NO LAW...respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof... After the 14th amendment, this means that no government in the United States can make any law respecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof. That's the problem with the suit, even thought the idea of the suit is logical. I'm very leery of any attempt of government to circumvent or prescribe what religion must do, even though I think the logic of the suit is sound. I think the question to ask is, what is meant by "...free exercise thereof...". Is that truly unlimited? Obviously, it isn't. What's the line of demarcation? Says who? Do we want such things to be in flux by constant suit (which is what happens in the US)?

[@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access]

Difference is this is a cult and not a religion, bud

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

@@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access You and I think that, but "cult" can be rather subjective in application. And I'd err on the side of religious liberty (I'm Atheist, btw), almost always. I hope the court can speak to the idea of fraud in the area of enticement for monetary gain. I think that might hold some weight. But the burden of proof is so high. And there's the matter of intent. One of the judges did bring up Joseph F. Smith locking away the 1832 first vision. I think this could turn into a positive landmark decision, actually for religion. Religion screams "morality, honesty, integrity". Perhaps kicking the LDS church in the ass for at best "concealment" and at worst lying to entice monetary contributions would be a good thing. I just don't want any court or legislative body to prescribe the manner of worship, etc.

[@dickknowspunk]

​@@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access all religions are cults.

[@DaisyPoodle]

@@dickknowspunkI don’t think that Hinduism or Buddhism are cults.

[@nancynurse]

I wonder how much my tithing adds up to, including donating $300 to building the San Diego temple. The corporation has all money required to build a temple, but they bled the members for money to build one anyway. Hmmm, morals gone??

[@jaylarsen67]

I have to be OC about the word legal. I believe the law community doesn't monopolize legal. So, when I practice my trombone that's a legal practice. Thus, all of your podcasts are legal not just the ones that cover courtroom stuff

[@DaisyPoodle]

I’m stuck on semantics too. It gets me in hot water too often 😊.

[@nancynurse]

Ummm, fraud IS about ethics and morals.

[@aBrewster29]

Kolby, I hope you see this. I keep trying to inform you every time you bring up the Hinckley quotes. Your opinion isn’t out and out wrong, but it’s missing one critical piece: Hinckley’s statement about tithing vs commercial proceeds and excess reserves has plausible connection to the Church’s prior financial mismanagement in spending beyond its means, which nearly bankrupted the Church a few decades earlier. In that light, the “no tithing will be used” makes complete sense as a reassurance to members that the City Creek project would not threaten the financial solvency of the Church or its ability to pursue its stated mission. This is not an apologetic. I am dismayed by the repeated instances of moral relativism and deferral to lawyers seen in the Church today. Kolby, I just think you and everyone else should understand and account for this detail because it is material. Ignore it and you’re making the wrong case. Kind regards, your local accountant.

[@CommonLaw-UncommonlyExplained]

Where did you try and correct me on this before, specifically? Did Hinckley reference that specific past historical context when he made the statement I'm talking about? I don't believe so, so why do you argue that I should be interpreting it only through that particular lens? Because whether you call it an apologetic or not (who really cares what the label is)--you're positing that I or others are being unreasonable at taking Hinckley's statement at face value. You're essentially contending that what was said isn't what was intended to be communicated. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that you literally changed the entire thing that is said in restating. If Hinckley meant what you claim he did--why didn't he just say that? I'm going to need some more indication from Hinckley, specifically, that this context was necessary to understanding what he meant to communicate. Here's the entire statement, with a paragraph or two before for context: "Faith in the payment of tithes and offerings increases despite the straitened economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. We are able to go forward with the building of meetinghouses and temples, with our vast education program, with the very many activities which are conditioned upon the tithing income of the Church. I promise you that we will not put the Church in debt. We will strictly tailor the program to the tithing income and use these sacred funds for the purposes designated by the Lord. I call attention to that which has received much notice in the local press. This is our decision to purchase the shopping mall property immediately to the south of Temple Square. We feel we have a compelling responsibility to protect the environment of the Salt Lake Temple. The Church owns most of the ground on which this mall stands. The owners of the buildings have expressed a desire to sell. The property needs very extensive and expensive renovation. We have felt it imperative to do something to revitalize this area. But I wish to give the entire Church the assurance that tithing funds have not and will not be used to acquire this property. Nor will they be used in developing it for commercial purposes. Funds for this have come and will come from those commercial entities owned by the Church. These resources, together with the earnings of invested reserve funds, will accommodate this program." I'm just not seeing that the only possible way to read those words is in the context you're contending I'm ignoring. At the very least, that the invested reserve funds were originally tithing funds could have been clearly communicated without needing to read between the lines, right? If Hinckley weren't attempting to mislead people, why did he put the funds from commercial entities of the Church right before this statement? Why wouldn't it have followed right after the tithing mention, since the "invested reserve funds" were tithing funds originally? And moreover, how were people who were tithe payers but not alive in those decades earlier you're referencing supposed to have that information? You seem to want to put every inference in favor of the Church and excuse their behavior if there's any possible excuse. That's certainly your right for you to determine with the money you've donated--but can you entertain the possibility that people did feel legitimately misled by Hinckley's statement? If so, why don't they get to determine how they feel about the money they donated? Ultimately, we can't know whether that statement (or any of the four others) itself is actionable until the cases resolve. At that point, neither your nor my opinion matters much. Worth noting that at the motion to dismiss stages (which these cases are in), the Church is to have every reasonable inference of fact construed against it. That's just by operation of the way the law works on a motion to dismiss, regardless of how one may come up with a plausible or possible apologetic. I think I've always tried to be pretty open about the fact that I'm attempting to read the tea leaves as objectively as I can (in this video, I even conclude I think the Church will ultimately prevail on the law in this particular case) but that we won't really know until the legal cases conclude.

[@charlottjohnson5271]

If she wants her tithing back. Is she going to.give back her blessing.

[@LoveMeSomeTrueCrime]

Wait... is this a real question?