BYU Cracks Down on Liberal Professors | Ep. 1980

[@wendychase4784]

I am the program director at the Rocky Mountain University (Provo, UT) Masters program in speech-language pathology. We are so delighted to welcome any BYU student, employee, or alumni to speech-language pathology services for gender affirmation. When I came here from Connecticut 7 years ago, where we established a thriving practice at the University of Connecticut in gender identity care, I expected that I would not get that opportunity here in Utah. Instead, the program made one visit to the Encircle House in Provo to let them know we were available and we have been inundated at the Center for Communication Disorders and Differences ever since. We respect a person's right to be their best self, whatever that may entail for themselves. There are welcoming places in Provo.

[@dianethulin1700]

Nice! I used to work with Head and Neck Cancer patients with Dr. Lisa Orloff. When she was with UCSD she developed that surgery for those who are transitioning and want help with their voices. It’s a big difference maker for those patients. Thanks for all you do!

[@D_rock4444]

I graduated from BYU two years ago. When I first enrolled, I was very active in the church and didn’t have any “doubts.” During my last year at BYU, I knew I was done with the church. It was an incredibly isolating experience because I didn’t want to tell anyone I was out of church while still attending BYU because I was afraid of getting kicked out. This affected my relationships with believing family members as I was very distant but couldn’t explain why. I would not recommend going to BYU because you never know where your testimony will be 2+ years from now. Even if you are a believing member, issues at BYU are closely tied to the church and are hard to ignore.

[@hturt4]

Unfortunately, BYU and the LDS Church have moved far from the gospel, teachings, and love of Christ in favor of adhering to man-made cultural American conservatism. Sadly, there are TBM’s who don’t know the difference between conservatism and the Church. Jesus was neither conservative nor American. Jesus himself would not recognize what the Mormon Church has become today. Protect your heart, mind, and testimony from what BYU and the Church are doing.

[@windigo44]

@@hturt4 Conservatism is not the problem - it’s the micromanagement of people’s lives, their thoughts, affiliations & conduct - it’s the vigorous topdown control & enforcement of the party line Look at the gross disaster that ensued when leftist Marxist communism was the driver of Stalin’s & Mao’s regimes The same ugly stuff is happening here except for the literal murder & bloodletting

[@brycemannn4847]

Ya if you go to a religious school and loose your faith it would be isolating. Good on byu for having standards. I salute you byu

[@SuzanneMurphree]

@@hturt4I don’t think Jesus would have ever recognized anything about the LDS

[@senorbb2150]

Something occurred to me while listening- Whatever salary BYU offers you to be on their faculty, you will in actuality be making 10% less than that. It's like the church is saying: Here is the $70K we are paying you, now give us back $7k.

[@HeatherRiosArte]

I was thinking about that too!

[@deegee8032]

Teaching about tithing and telling people to pay you 10% are two different things. It's God that is asking. (Malachi 3:8-12) 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

[@weeza8739]

It's true. While I was working there I thought that they should just take it out of my paycheck since it was required anyway to keep my job.

[@senorbb2150]

@@deegee8032 You have a distorted view of what "robbing God" means. Refusing to pay an institution that hordes 150 BILLION dollars and tries to deceive its members about that amount is hardly robbing God.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Also that is the admission price to the temples. If you don't have a valid temple recommend you can't be in good standing and an employee of the church. That includes people not grandfathered at BYU. BYU does not pay faculty as high a salary as other universities. Plus they don't have tenure tied to employment. It is continued employment. This is why many new PhDs choose to teach at secular institutions.

[@HeatherRiosArte]

Being forced to bring your spouse to an interview at an "academic" institution is WILD. I do hope they lose accreditation. My alma mater (WVU) is in the same NCAA conference as BYU and I hate that we have to play them in sports. It's honestly embarrassing.

[@richharkness5942]

It sucked being forced by the Mormon legislature to have to play byu during independence or lose funding to the medical program. Which accepts medicare for thousands of utahans who the U of U would have been forced to turn away because of byu and the Mormon legislature. Its the wealthest cult and should lose tax exemption.

[@AntonioAFelizJr]

Yes. I was a student at BYU for my undergraduate years during the late 1960s. I came out in 1980. I can verify that LDS Church Security in tandem with BYU Security, literally, did surveillance on cars parked out of the 8 gay bars open then in Salt Lake City. They kept track of license plates and cross checked the data with BYU records of student license plates. Some of them actually went under cover in the bars and would entrap BUY and U of U unsuspecting students who'd fall for their entraping tricks! So, what's going on now isn't new. Same old thing. Too bad. Sad, actually. It's like living in totalitarian Russia almost! Be safe everyone!!🎉

[@GoFergis1]

So sad and underhanded! When I found out they had a file on me, it was. MAJOR turnoff and a huge sense of betrayal. I could not wrap my head around my experience being a Mormon in California, and what was going on at the university in the Standards Office. Secret spying and informing…certainly not Christlike.

[@carolinea3899]

These professors were the ones who helped me through BYU the most, my heart breaks for them. One of my BYU professors watched me come out as a lesbian (I wrote a relevant paper on it since I knew it was a safe class to do so in) and he sent me an email of support that felt like a loving letter from a father. I feel so bad for these professors and also all the kids who won’t be able to have safe professors on campus. 😞

[@briantimberlake4174]

The ironic thing about the elevator clip is, is that the church and byu are facing the wrong way. They face away from compassion, away from Christlike love, away from objectivity, away from truth. The TBMs are the ones who follow along and go against their better judgement and humanity, or Spirit of Christ, whatever you want to call it, and face the wall with the church.

[@mormonstories]

Such a great point.

[@torrenceire]

Shoutout to John for always breaking it down for us Nevermos ! Thank you

[@nathanaeldavenport2251]

This hits close to home for me. I have several good friends who have or still work in CES, and based on conversations with them, can confirm that the anti-intellectual retrenchment happening at the hands of Mr. Gilbert is stressing these people out to their breaking points. They’re being forced to choose between their conscience and their careers, which feels like an impossible choice that they never expected to have to make when they signed on to work for the church. The church’s top leadership surely is aware of all of this, and is probably tacitly endorsing it. I’m completely unimpressed. It’s nothing more than corporate cultural warfare.

[@hturt4]

Clark Gilbert is proving his loyalty to Nelson, Oaks, and Holland. They love his Ivy League background, ultra conservatism, and his staunch loyalty to them. He’ll become an apostle if he keeps pushing their ultra conservative agenda.

[@brycemannn4847]

Guys churches are conservative.. have you noticed? It’s kind of a pipe dream that you guys think the lds are gonna join your liberal kabal

[@SarahBoyden]

The spouse requirement is wild! Can you imagine a hospital hiring a doctor or you looking for a doctor & asking to interview their spouse? I guess yelp reviews should now evaluate spouses :) I bet more likely to get hired if you are married too? & already a problem with lack of self & controlling spouses in Mormonism. Also there are lots of top church leaders that have family members or children out of the church. Should they fire themselves for not being surrounded by 100 faithful people?

[@radybay9088]

How are they going to find professors for their med - school? And what residency program would want to take the chance on someone who graduated from their med school?

[@Heidirclark]

With how they are ranking their faculty from “the faithful core” down to “the Open Foes” - how does the ambiguity of their personal interpretation of the leading of the Holy Spirit to guide them help them in these specialized schools?

[@constechable]

President Nelson and many others are great medical professionals and wish to follow Gods laws.

[@soude85]

⁠@@constechable I wouldn’t trust a doctor who believes that one can translate “ancient texts“ with a stone and a hat.

[@jacobhholt]

These sworn oaths before employment should be made illegal, if you're hiring talent to do a non-religious task such as teaching math or a dance program, you should be hired or fired on those merits not unquestionable piety to a belief.

[@claytongardinier5179]

And yet the university looks the other way when a football player is caught giving a rant filled with foul language to his fellow players at half time of a football game. Justified and given a pass because it is expected of boys playing games.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Yes! The hypocrisy is ever present in Mormonism

[@constechable]

No rule against foul language, if there was the punishment would be the same. Ridiculous comment.

[@KGchannel01]

The LDS apostles teaching non-conforming university professors about the dangers of groupthink... Isn't that precious

[@mantispid5]

BYU has slowly but steadily been moving from a quality university to the Mormon version of Bob Jones U. since the late 80s so no surprises here.

[@hturt4]

Well said.

[@janewasson4845]

When l was a freshman, we had a Humanities prof who was openly communist. He was a fantastic teacher, the kids loved him, but parents complained til he was 'let go.' Still irritates alot of us. BYU resembles a police state close to communism. Ironic.

[@ginafrancis4950]

Reminds me of the Stasi in East Germany. More than a little Disturbing. I hope they do lose their tax exemption.

[@constechable]

If he doesn't represent BYU and church beliefs he should be gone. That's like me hiring an employee and letting him represent my company while he disagrees with my product or service and tells clients and potential clients to go a different way. Id fire them immediately.

[@GoFergis1]

Does anyone know if the spy rings existed in the mid-80’s, and did it extend to students as well. As a freshman, I went to the Standards Office to give testimonial support for a fellow dorm mate of mine. I was shocked when the officer pulled out a file they had on me, and started asking me if I had done such and such! Apparently someone I didn’t even know had reported me to Standards, and they had a file on me! It really creeped me out, and made me feel violated as I had done nothing wrong.

[@AntonioAFelizJr]

I answered in comments.

[@BuckeBoo]

I had the exact same thought. Of all organizations, BYU/LDS, the pinnacle of conformity mocking others for conforming.

[@CatskillsGrrl]

And mocking them with a TV show from the 60s that the majority of the audience doesn’t even recognize or understand. Timely reference, bro.

[@fullamhoneyfiber]

I find it ironic that most of these folks vote because they don’t like ‘big gov’ in their life but are okay with a different organization to legit care about your personal opinions, what you do in your bedroom and in your free time and will decide if you can work/cont to be employed. This isn’t the sort of over looks that large corporations even do when your employees for them. I feel for all the queer kids who are forced to go there by their families, they are trying to remove allys and people who help them create a safe community there. I am so grateful for the amazing teachers I had at BYUI. they know who they are. I would of been lost with out them❤

[@EquestrianAltercationsLLC]

"we are committed to putting our admittedly non-historical book and it's teachings over factual peer reviewed and evidence supported education" -Old dudes coming to grasp with the fact it's not possible to be well informed and also believing in the BoM

[@evanhill9890]

I went to BYU with Clark Gilbert (91-94) and overlapped with him at the Harvard Business School (96-98). I have always known Clark to be a stand up guy with high integrity, intellect and honesty. Very capable. Great family guy as well. I had hoped Clark wouldn't follow Jeffrey down this uninspired and foolish rabbit hole. Being on the wrong side of history is something very familiar to LDS leadership. Clark has an opportunity to be better than this. Jeffrey is an uninspiring and uninspired leader unworthy of followers, and it looks like Clark, the man I know to be a good man, is edging closer to losing his integrity and ability to lead as well. Very sad. I wish Clark wouldn't cheapen the value of my BYU diploma in this ridiculous tilt at windmills that will ultimately be apologized for with great fanfare and some proclaiming the correction a miracle revelation. BYU will suffer and the quality of people drawn to the institution will wane. The current mistakes are setting BYU back 40 years. I have known Jeffrey for many years. He has all of the emotional maturity of a primary child and the intellectual and spiritual integrity of the serpent in the garden.

[@mormonstories]

@evanhill9890 - Please email me. [e-mail]

[@CasperLCat]

It’s not about being unique or conformist. It’s about whether the university community will be allowed to follow the available facts and evidence regarding LGBT persons, wherever it leads.

[@SuzanneBarthelemy]

Thanks!

[@douglaswilkinson5700]

One reason we revolted against British in 1776 is embodied in our Constitution's 1st amendment: Freedom of Speech.

[@constechable]

freedom of speech but not as far as representing someone or a group of people.

[@douglaswilkinson5700]

@constechable I do not understand your reply. Please clarify what you mean so I can properly respond.

[@constechable]

@@douglaswilkinson5700 persons, employees, partners, etc. Have a right to free speech. The person company or organization also has the right to not be represented by persons that are misrepresenting you, your company, or organization. When persons say things that misrepresent a company, they have the right to part ways.

[@MichaelStealth8]

The following quote is from eminent LDS scholar and late BYU professor Hugh Nibley. Nibley taught us this principle about keeping up appearances in the Joseph Smith Lecture Series, 1972-73, regarding the topic “What is Zion?”. “The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence of proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism . . . the haircut becomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules by appearances.” (Hugh Nibley, Joseph Smith Lecture Series, 1972-73, “What is Zion?”)

[@vladomie]

Once again, BYU demonstrates "The campus is our world".

[@jessicathurston6494]

Well said. Thanks John. I really appreciate you.

[@mjordan79705]

35:00 I taught at a Bible College years ago. We had to sigh a “Statement of Faith” every year in order to be hired. It amounted to submitting in advance to authoritarian policies and practices. An extremely toxic environment.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

When finishing my PhD I was asked about BYU as an option. I heard their employment agreement did not include tenure like you see in other universities. A newly retired faculty member told me "To work for the church you had better have a strong testimony".

[@klassymom4118]

Once again, absolutely love your podcast. I do believe there’s one clarification and something you said about a private university run by a church having the right to do what they wish in terms of their faculty being that BYU does likely receive quite a bit of federal funding I have to imagine there maybe kids on PEL Grants or some kind of federal funding programs The federal government then could enforce equality non-discrimination laws constitutional interpretation of equality on any place receiving those funds. That’s my understanding

[@senorbb2150]

Ain't gonna happen in MAGA world.

[@kolober2045]

That elevator clip is a great metaphor of the church insisting there is only one "right way" to look when in reality, there's no harm in anyone looking in any other direction during the elevator ride.

[@carrot-cat1746]

This is the kind of uncompassionate, closed-minded move that makes me embarrassed to be a BYU alumna. Ousting other perspectives is not going to strengthen the university. And it won't stop students and staff alike from going there and realizing too late they are unwelcome there. This shameful behavior is unbecoming of a serious academic institution.

[@Jsppydays]

During temple worship services why do women sit on one side of the room and the men sit on the other? Couples separate from each other? I always thought it was because we are judged individually by God, not as a couple. Yet the BYU LDS leaders judge you as a couple? How can they judge one person by what their spouse believes? Not to give a very qualified candidate a position at BYU because their husband is not a believing member or children are not living the LDS guidelines? Where's the freedom in this? Why such stricked judgment? "You will know them by their fruits.". How could any of the other choices be a reflection on the qualified candidate?

[@ginafrancis4950]

Guilty by association unfortunately

[@chrewtransformation]

Fighting conformity with conformity.

[@constechable]

Its real easy follow the doctrine of the church who owns the university or go elsewhere, not a hard concept.

[@BuckeBoo]

It’s all in the broader cultural trend of anti-intellectualism.

[@timnewman1172]

Not to be political, but one only has to look to the incoming administration in D.C. to realize just how real a problem this is... We as a society are doomed if this wave of anti-itellectualism gets a stronger foothold in our Nation!

[@BuckeBoo]

@timnewman1172 oh don’t worry about the politics. This has been a 50 year push by the right to mix religion with politics. This has been going on since 1970s and is peaking (hopefully) with the new-ish admin. It is all a result of the broader political environment.

[@ThePlantProvision]

Please get Rosie card onto your podcast to share her Mormon story! Love her so much, especially after her latest salt lake tribune article

[@matthewmitchell68]

They only want certain types of leaders and professors, ones who don’t question and fall in line.

[@SuzanneBarthelemy]

Clark Gilbert’s PhD from Harvard is a Doctorate of Business Administration. Not in philosophy or comparative religion, or literature or biblical studies or classics. Or linguistics. Nothing “academic” in that sense. He basically went to Harvard to get a vocational PhD. That’s why his bio doesn’t touch on subject of his PhD. 🫤 He can have nothing to say to the expertise of religious scholars or scientists or social science or psychology.

[@hturt4]

Gilbert doesn’t have a PhD, he has a DBA, Doctorate of Business Administration. It’s an applied business degree, not a research or academic degree.

[@laurenconrad1799]

I’ve heard of domestic abusive spouses calling a partner’s workplace and running amuck to get their spouse fired as a way to control their finances. This spouse-interview policy feels like that, but in reverse.

[@eileenfeltes3570]

Christlike? Has anyone in LDS leadership read the New tTstament? Christ would not recognize what most Christians today practice.

[@elliek5350]

It is so wrong, unhealthy, and not Christlike when your personal spiritual journey can jeopardize your employment. I can't see Jesus caring more about the public image of his disciples than caring about disciples.

[@sandaroocompilations5182]

I like the new title

[@susanapettis2826]

As a nevermo who went to BYU, the professors that I encountered during my Global Women's Studies minor were some of the only ones I could respect academically. Big yikes for BYU.

[@juliebyzewski1868]

As a ( dissenting) Catholic, this reminds me of my church's insistence that any professors teaching Catholic doctrine teach only church dogma.

[@trishawilkins9375]

Ultimately it is just sad. If the Mormon Jesus is real, I can’t see him wanting any of this. What happened to “we teach correct principles and allow our people to govern themselves “?

[@constechable]

You cant see God and Jesus wanting those who represent him to follow his laws?

[@trishawilkins9375]

@ I can’t see him shaming people, kicking people out of his school for small things, and regulating every teacher that works there. If you study his life that that was the last thing he was doing. If you want to teach people, you welcome them in and love them. That changes more hearts than shame and more rules

[@melindalemmon2149]

Husband is a vocal music graduate, did his mission, and escaped that dog and pony show. His voice training was remarkable, to say the least.

[@PARebecca]

Believe or leave... Enforcing tithe paying to maintain worthiness to teach is to me extortion plain and simple. Also I think that would have some legal standing if one of the professors was fired because they didn't maintain their worthiness because they failed to pay their tithes. Hopefully one of these fired professors sues them..? Paying to pray is one thing...paying tithe to keep your job teaching at a University is quite another.

[@bhsghost]

I come to Mormon Stories cuz I don’t have a SL tribune membership 😂

[@mjordan79705]

27:20 what was that famous psychological experiment? The arch conformity experiment? That candid camera episode seems to be inspired by it. Ironically, highl demand religions like LDS rely heavily upon conformity.

[@mjordan79705]

Asch conformity experiment

[@mormonstories]

Asche conformity experiment

[@michelleinauen4693]

I thought it was a federal law not to discriminate against religious views.

[@LofiNarcolepsy]

In D&C 128:22, Joseph Smith said, "...shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward." Why then have the current leaders decided to go backward? It defies logic.

[@janmillerstopmotion]

Say goodbye to the US News rankings.

[@myviewmjs3632]

I don’t understand why anyone would want attend or teach at BYU when there so many other excellent colleges and universities.

[@jonjahr3403]

1:50:16 As a loyal Michigan the idea that his securing a tenured position at Ohio State is an improvement over Byu (which is understandable seeing as Ohio State is a public university) just shows even more how crazy things are at Byu. No joke! Also, the fact that John still loves Byu after his excommunication is further proof of what a great man he is. YOU ROCK, John!

[@anandrew6641]

So 25 to 50% replacement in BYU faculty coming in the next few years?

[@devydowner]

00:34:37 fairly certain BYU is only an R2 institution. Both Utah State and the University of Utah are R1 though.

[@rebeccasirrine947]

So, does this mean the hymn "Know This, That Every Soul Is Free" will be removed from the new hymnbook? One wonders.

[@gemmaswain2251]

Stalin would have loved BYU.

[@KTolai]

I'm not a fan of BYU, but aren't private schools legally allowed to reasonably make their own rules? I went to the U, but no one goes to BYU with a misunderstanding about who they are. Right?

[@hahafalseflag5090]

It's called the Donald Trump affect

[@__-cr6fv]

Alarms were going off in me regarding the legitimacy of the elevator "experiment". 1) I think it is simply not real. 2) was this performed / filmed in the 50's maybe, 60's??. I strongly doubt you'd see that result in another test. RELEVANCE = 0. ( I can't believe they are dragging that out to make a point. Seems desperate. )

[@r2junot174]

Great episode -- your witness is powerful & will bring change. BYU's move to discipline faculty members for publicly supporting their own queer kids (or any family members who fall short) reminds me of the way the FLDS forces members to cut ties w/their children & accept banishment of spouses. Clark Gilbert's practices remind me of the surveillance & gaslighting tactics Warren Jeffs used when he became prophet.

[@petertherock7340]

The Faithful Core- How do they know that the Holy Spirit is actually approving said doctrines or policies as they understand them? What if said beliefs or policies contradict what others are saying the Holy Spirit is telling them? Isn’t this just more subjective nonsense? 🤔 P.S. As a non-Mormon I can only chuckle, sit back, relax, and have a beer 🍺… 😎

[@Snowball9208]

I really feel bad for the professors about this new round of crackdowns, because the professors, library, and the Provo River parkway were what I retain fond memories about BYU--not the General Authorities of the LDS Church. I also thought the elevator thing was beyond ironic.

[@JIKOKALOL]

So what if BYU wants to remain exclusive with their religious requirements? It's no skin off my back. Let them live in their making.

[@gemmaswain2251]

Why do senior Elders all speak in the same - boring - way? Do they attend anti-public speaking classes? Learn 'how to pontificate and dominate your audience' lessons? Yeesh.

[@steveng.clinard1766]

1:10:00 i have it on pretty good authority that one bad apple don't spoil the bunch.

[@claytongardinier5179]

Highest ranking was 61m, however, the law school achieved a ranking of 23.

[@vmskating9028]

BYU law school president consult on project 2025

[@Kathleen-tp6sb]

John, and agnostic, or someone who does not have a testimony of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints, should be courageous enough to go forward, and leave the university rather than to be dishonest for the sake of a job. I am I was at BYU, and I found some things that were very wrong happening at BYU things that were swept under the carpet and as a student when I did the right thing and came forward very discreetly not talking to anyone but those I should be talking to the closest ranks in college disruptive behavior charge against me.. some of these were people who are afraid it would lose their job when the truth came forward. These are the types of things that happen in any corporation.. for myself, I left I did not want to become like those people. There are people who are not Lds who’s moral values are high, and who are more ethical.. I regret that I was in a position where I was standing a few feet from elder Eyring know President Eyring, and I knew because the Lord spirit told me to go tell him what happened I did not have the courage, and I walked away from that opportunity to do the right thing. I regret that to this day.. one thing that I will not do is allow BYU or any other organization within the church to force me to lie about what I think, feel or do. I have gotten points off on homework assignments for refusing to be untruthful. I have chosen, and made a firm commitment to not allow any church on the organization, or any local leader, or any other person within that organization to force me into a compliancy untruths in order to benefit. Of course, I remain humble and teachable, but I will not be forced into seeing something on true about what I think or believe or what I have seen or have not seen.. honestly, I have found most of the problems I’ve been with people who are put into positions of power over other people who have misinterpreted misrepresented or otherwise just been mean.. I have also learned that I don’t know everything and I don’t know everything about anything and sometimes I need to withhold judgment on some of those things that I don’t know everything about. Humility in academia is so so important and it is so sad that because of a gown and a letter some think they are wise.. not so not so…. I also think it is despicable despicable despicable that a person cannot question a Doctor No issue, without fear of draconian discipline.!!!!! I am positive that it’s not our heavenly father of his son, or of his spirit.

[@GoFergis1]

“truth” ??? Scary!

[@laurenconrad1799]

The spouse-interview policy reminds me of toxic helicopter parents who accompany college-aged children to job interviews. That’s not ok then and the spouse thing is not ok.

[@carterbrown9695]

Gilbert has a DBA. Doctorate in business administration

[@richharkness5942]

My friend is freaking out a professor of Spanish and his wife has left the Mormon cult. Basically said great now you can see you work for the indoctranation center for the Mormon cult and maybe we can get out of Utah.

[@celinhahemi2034]

This sounds like professor Umbridge is trying to take over Hogwarts 😂… honestly, let the teachers teach their subjects without having to share spiritual or religious beliefs. I had wonderful teachers during my time at BYU, and none of them talked about religion, or the church…

[@StarterVillian]

Perfect political climate for this type of behavior

[@Kathleen-tp6sb]

Merrill Bateman was not called to be an LDS apostle

[@windigo44]

Nor should he have been after his proven plagiarism

[@emmagillette6249]

Holland should feel bad about that talk- I can name several people (including myself) who left the church over it.

[@darlenelane9010]

Common sense dictates do not attend nor seek imployment from any church affileated organization. These are their rules, at least for now, so plan your future accordingly. Seems simple enough going forward. I see the tragedy as being for those who already work there. They should to keep below the radar of the gestapo or get out. .

[@tenny810]

People don’t act like that as much anymore like they show on this county camera footage

[@johnsaxton5281]

But they’re “politically neutral” 😄😄😄😄😄😄😄

[@thrombus1857]

Interesting.. Kevin Pearson was my Mission president

[@Jsppydays]

Why does brother Holland continue with the musket analogy? You know we got the point many members left because of this violent talk. Has he not learned anything? Maybe he needs to bring in more love, acceptance and less uniqueness and less violence. But the more he says it,. President Holland just say you're sorry, no more musket talk and drop that analogy from any talk. I respect Bradley Wilcox, he could actually apologize for making comments that were inappropriate. Holland cannot, he enforces his authority... I don't think he prayed about the musket, analogy just going with my heart or common sense. Oh the video in this talk, wow, you would never guess that stupid video what's from someone who had a doctorate or a religious leader. definitely of ironic.

[@paulroman3402]

what are the mormon leaders afraid of?

[@ryanmiller1569]

he was a mentee of Clayton Christiansen at Harvard Business School

[@thrombus1857]

My former bishop John Wilson was over BYU pathways a few years ago, I thought. He was a very progressive guy, or at least he came off that way

[@hturt4]

That’s why he’s no longer doing that.

[@Kathleen-tp6sb]

Elder Gilbert has a dba

[@Kathleen-tp6sb]

You’re talking about cultural conformity and not the gospel of Jesus Christ….. Gilbert doesn’t have a phd he has a dba…..

[@shannonleigh72]

I'm a never BYU'er and never will be. When you apply to be a student--you know what you're walking into. When you apply to be an employee--you know what you're walking into. If you don't, boo on you. It's a private, religious University, they can decide the rules of the game. Plenty of other religious schools at all levels do the exact same thing. I don't get the rationale behind this gasping, clutching of pearls, suffering the vapors, shock & horror and it's such a duh factor and why this is being made into such a big deal. THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT. Not a new revelation. I love your stuff but somedays...

[@blondandsmart1]

You know in the movie Mean Girls, how the popular girls HAD to wear pink on a specific day of the week (i think it was Wednesday) and if you weren’t wearing pink you couldn’t sit at the popular table? Do you remember when the main popular girl gained a little weight, so she couldn’t fit in her pink clothes, and when she went to sit with her friends they yelled “YOU CAN’T SIT WITH US!” lol yeah 😂 BYU is giving me STRONG Mean Girls vibes. Fit in or f-off. Conform or quit. Believe or leave. The attitude is super elitist.

[@blondandsmart1]

Religious universities have the right to choose what policies and rules they want to have, but thankfully because of freedom of speech we can talk about those policies and rules and decide for ourselves if we think those policies and rules (or the university overall) are ethical. And that’s why we’re here 😊to talk about the unethical policies that BYU has. Hopefully a bunch of high school kids will see this video and have more information about what their potential college experience will look like if they choose BYU.

[@susangale1470]

BYU is a private school. I can't wrap my head around those fighting the beliefs and values when there are so many other colleges that share opposing values. Why not go somewhere else and be happy? People leave the church and it's values but can't leave the church alone.

[@bgroesser]

I know a few of my roommates there didn't have a choice. Their parents would pay for BYU only. I went there and had a great time, but I wasn't very orthodox and I was pretty easy going.

[@blondandsmart1]

Some people lose their faith in the LDS church after 2-3 years of attending. But a BYU degree requires a certain amount of religious classes, and a bishop’s endorsement (you have to be a worthy church member to keep attending. Or you at least have to live like a church member even if you aren’t one). So you can’t just “leave”. You have to pretend you have a testimony and play along, or else you could loose a lot of moneys worth in college credits if you get kicked out. There are a decent amount of Mormon stories of people sharing their experiences like this 👍🏻.

[@Sissel.Marlen]

Sounds like MAGA full speed!!

[@SprocketGames]

The title of your video looks interesting! But a 2 & 1/2 hour length is discouraging. I hope you will later release a Cliffs Notes sized summary later on. 😀👍

[@alanpearson655]

Criticism is to be expected. BYU continues to re-assert its primary mission, which is to be an LDS institution that upholds the standards of the church. There needn't be any apologies. Faculty and staff signed onto this concept but decided to go rogue. They may support standards or leave.

[@Fatboy53]

I’d like to listen but 2.5 hours is too long. Condense it, get to the point. I wish you would give an outline in the first 2 so we could skip around to what we want to hear. Best.

[@anandrew6641]

Are you familiar with average length of videos here?

[@suenelson5126]

Have you considered 1.75x in settings?

[@Fatboy53]

@@anandrew6641 fair enough and thanks

[@Fatboy53]

@@suenelson5126 thanks but I’m gonna politely move on. All the best.

[@blondandsmart1]

@@suenelson5126that’s what i do. I love all the details too though. I don’t mind that it’s long, but i usually have all podcasts on a faster speed.

[@constechable]

This is real easy, If one doesn't believe in the church doctrine, they shouldn't be teaching at the University the church owns and operates. Its about time the Byu faculty are held responsible for not keeping with church doctrine, its not a conservative liberal issue at all.

[@shoguninnovation6589]

I hate that the church is using this process to interview candidates. But the concept of demonizing Conservative professors when 95-99% of all professors in the US identify as liberal (depending on the study) is fascinating to me. How do you, John, feel we fix the US education system when so blatantly conservative educators are being alienated? Much love to you and your work! Huge fan

[@brandonjuber1586]

This is 100% my thought as well. Universities are inching away from teaching people how to think and toward teaching what to think. The domination of leftist in academia is creating a groupthink bubble that opposes/rivals the one at BYU.

[@JB-xx3vp]

In modern times in the US, conservatism has shifted pretty far right and is largely synonymous with intolerance towards people who don’t conform to a conservative’s in-group. If you’ve experienced higher education or lived in diverse areas, you may understand why that isn’t an ideal cognitive framework for a prof. Liberal profs can have shortcomings too of course, but in my experience they’ve been quick to admit error and attempt to correct themselves. My conservative BYU profs? Justifications, contempt, and entitlement. Kind of sad.

[@AConnors-q2n]

@@JB-xx3vp Not my experience. They can dig in just as deeply.

[@shoguninnovation6589]

Are you a bot?

[@shoguninnovation6589]

Yep, you’re a bot

[@gumshoe2273]

You all are aware that BYU is a private religious institution aren't you? An institution to which you are free to NOT apply.

[@Maryfs1]

This is why I stopped reading Brandon sanderson's books, you can't work there and be a good person.

[@alyssa2796]

Am I actually the first comment?!

[@JIKOKALOL]

Where does the terrorizing part come in? Sorry, I'm dense.

[@Jsppydays]

Well not everybody uses a musket, gun in a talk, under a severe scrutiny of family members, judgement media and history, person's family members under scrutiny, this is terrorizing. How did you miss this?

[@senorbb2150]

The terror is the fear BYU professors feel about expressing their true opinions under this system. When you have worked at an institution for several years and your retirement is under threat it can be a terrifying situation. Seemed obvious, but by admission you are dense so I'm glad to help.

[@nathanaeldavenport2251]

Because most people who get into academia do so out of a sense of curiosity about the world, and a desire to convey what they have learned to subsequent generations. But when you work at a university that makes your primary qualification passing an ideological purity test… they often end up living with a massive amount of cognitive dissonance, especially when their research unearths truths that undermine church dogma. That’s really hard to live with. I personally know faculty members within CES who have effectively left the faith, but have to maintain the pretense of belief in order to keep their jobs, especially if they work at non-research campuses that don’t have standing in the academic community.

[@JIKOKALOL]

@@senorbb2150 Brilliant!

[@JIKOKALOL]

@@nathanaeldavenport2251 too bad they got sucked into a phony religion in the first place!

[@jillyncomstock2284]

I agree with many of the points stated but extremely disagree with your interpretation of Joseph Smith. Only because I personally researched his unadulterated writings and speeches. Please don’t come after me for not believing what you believe. I only want to express the importance of reading historical evidence personally and not to rely on others event when it is put forward as Church evidence. Go to the reference your self and read the whole thing including the original Innocence Document etc.. if a BYU professor said what I just said He would be fired for teaching how to research history.