Are Mormon Husbands Jerks? ExMormons React to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Pt. 3 | Ep. 1945

[@elisa-beary]

Even before Vegas when Jen tells Zack that moving to NY for med school is going to be rly difficult with the kids & no family/friends/support around while he’s gone all the time but mainly because she’s able to get far more opportunities to make money & for her social media in Utah & he looks her dead in the face and says, ‘I really don’t care.’ it struck me as deeply cruel & beyond selfish. Not only not caring about his wife’s well being & ability to pay for everything + med school but what’s best for his kids!! That was one of the first signs in the show but with that 4 word sentence it said all too much about him & the nature of their marriage. So sad!!💔

[@moustik31]

Yeah, he doesnt love her imo. His actions dont match her claims, that "nobody has ever loved her so much".

[@padfootdoggy]

@elisa-beary it is sad and oddly she won't make as much money cause influence in NY and CA don't make as much money compared to Utah

[@TheEuniceBurns1]

It may even be that he honestly thinks and feels that he loves her as completely as it’s possible for him to love her! I think he loves the parts of her that fit into *his* definition of Jen, and who he imagines her to be; but he’s clearly VERY uncomfortable with and threatened by any aspects of her that don’t sync with his idea of who and what she should be. I’m not sure that he’s emotionally secure and self-aware enough to really love her for all of the complexities of a partner as an equal soul, and as a full, complete, dynamic, growing & changing human being.

[@tamidawn8383]

⁠

[@tamidawn8383]

I remember hearing clearly, from my husband (now my ex), on several occasions that no one would love me as much as he loved me. With my 4 kids in tow, I eventually found a new life.

[@emrysaki]

Re: Chippendales, heterosexual women go to “male revue” type shows for similar reasons that they go to drag performances (both are popular for bachelorette parties and girls’ nights). It’s not to be aroused despite both types of performances containing elements of sexuality. They’re fun, risqué, “wild” environments where women can feel a little naughty in a safe way, free to let their hair down with their female friends. They’re environments where women can embrace sexuality positively, which is largely still denied to us by society at large, and without having to worry about being an object of the male gaze for once.

[@mormonstories]

Love this.

[@shelby477]

You described it perfectly. And no one is sneaking off to private alcoves or rooms for "lap dances".

[@janinegriffiths8281]

Well said. Thank you for your breakdown.

[@alexandralovin2117]

bingo!

[@EthanClark-fp1rg]

In regards to the magic mike response of “it would suck to be a single mother of two kids” and the CRAZY PART OF THAT IS HE DOESNT EVEN WANT THE KIDS!!! He thinks she’s immoral so he’ll divorce her and leave the kids with an immoral woman? That’s how you know he’s a Mormon father right there. Damn.

[@moustik31]

Wow, Jen's mother-in-law thanking her for her "hard work" and the "mix" she adds to the family stings of micro-aggressions. Neither them nor them deserve to have her in their lives.

[@knocknockify]

I was so sad to see that. They’re abusive and racist too. It’s awful

[@DimestoreCountry]

Whew this one was harder to digest than I anticipated. My first husband came from a very Mormon family and this was absolutely my experience in that marriage. Even his family defending him and his abuse and addiction. Even 25 years later it still is happening. That experience unfortunately primed me to accept another abusive relationship with my second husband who ended up passing away from cancer. So many layers to unpack and process. I am so glad I found your podcast and this was an amazing episode!

[@mormonstories]

🙏❤️

[@enishalihoward8119]

The family always defend them when they abuse you

[@frazer9]

John please get on dutasteride. Thank me later 😊​@@mormonstories

[@TheEuniceBurns1]

You’re definitely not alone in this experience, and I’m so sorry that the scars followed you even outside of that first marriage. That sounds so horribly familiar to me.

[@StellaChristelle]

Yes- my father who cheated on my mom with several mistresses kept telling her when they became older that in the hereafter he was looking forward to all the many plural wives he was going to have. She always confided in me that she wanted nothing to do with him in the afterlife.

[@foreignfilmfan]

Even though Jen & Zach are married, I can’t help but think that his family is taking advantage of her financial contributions for his medical schooling. That’s money that his family gets to keep, not her family. It’s even worse if they separate.

[@iamjustsaying1]

I agree with John that (at least for us who are older), going to Chippendales is not something a "good mormon" would even consider. Porn, strip-shows, not wearing temple garments 24/7, gambling, and even using "playing cards," were bad; and we were to avoid even the appearance of evil. This is why I'm glad that there is an older voice on the panel; because from what I'm hearing and seeing, the younger generations have lightened up considerably on keeping in line with church teachings. This is a good thing; but I just think it's worth noting that it's a vastly different experience. And yes, patriarchy does make many LDS men jerks.

[@lisajackson9431]

Has Zac's family addressed his gambling? Was that Jen's and Hulu's fault, too? 🤔 Run, Jen! 🚩🚩

[@whenimonmymoon6822]

A mormon stories convo on labiaplasty was not on my 2024 bingo card, but the understanding and care that it was handled with is exactly how I expected it to go.

[@mormonstories]

🙏❤️

[@moustik31]

iirc, Zac's behaviour had the castmembers so worried about Jen, they joked about the phenomenon of Utah dentists murdering their wives. I hope, Jen leaves him bec. in my experience, the more an abuser is "forgiven", the less they have incentives to change and incidents become gradually worse and worse.

[@loyalbadams]

Thanks! I am and x and Love Mormon Stories and I Love Smart Ladies. I am 73 years old and hope I have never been a Jerk.

[@PatriciaNoel-qp2ff]

😊I’m 68 and feel your point.

[@elisa-beary]

I think the double standard of Zack saying he wanted to divorce her cuz she has no morals or values in one of his texts because it’s against their religion while he’s simultaneously gambling w/ her money, something he has an issue with & is ALSO against LDS after his parents gave him money to help w/ the burden of Jen paying for HIS med school & he blew every penny not on his children, wife, bills but gambling is the grossest double standard. I wondered does he see the double standard & not care or does he not think about it at all cuz he’s the ‘leader of their family?’ When Jen said to the girls ‘no one’s ever loved me like he does & if we got divorced it would just be the same with someone else’ it broke my heart. I was glad the girls said you’ve only been w/ him, you have nothing to compare his love for you too & how they ALL experienced similar or exact issues in their first marriages & it is different with their 2nd marriage because that’s not normal behavior & it was sad to hear her think it would be this way with anyone. I haven’t heard anyone talk about her saying that so I wanted to add it.

[@fenixdown2396]

You think that is a bad double standard? What about the one about how women going to chippendales is different than men going to a strip club? It is exactly the same. Also, gambling is against church rules, but sins of sexual nature (like going to a strip club) are considered much worse. They are both wrong, but I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of LDS members would say that the strip club is the much much worse offense.

[@moustik31]

That part. He is totally playing into the systemic frameworks, that pedestal him as a "prize" (racism, sexism, classism), while not delivering his hand of the bargain (loving, caring, providing). He knows, that the stigma of divorce and the pressure of being a single parent would be much more harder on Jen than on him. Their situation reminds me of "The Perfect Couple" on netflix, where one of character is working class woman, who marries a upper class twat ends up having to support their whole family and lifestyle through her own labour.

[@moustik31]

​​​@@fenixdown2396Did you watch the show? iirc, Jen was ambushed and left as soon as she realised, where she was. Meanwhile, she gave her money, that she probably earned, to gamble. He is abusing her verbally and emotionally on HER dime. I wonder, what the church's take on that. 🙄

[@atTHEdishwasher]

​@@fenixdown2396I think both are terrible in their own ways (in terms of Orthodox LDS), but it was very strange how all the panelists were justifying that women watching men strip was ok and campy, but men watching women is gross and seedy. Even the description of a strip club for men was weird. Some men just go to relax and watch a show as well.

[@TheEuniceBurns1]

@@moustik31 So his abuse is verbal, emotional, AND spiritual, AND financial. And that’s just what we’re actually seeing, witnessing.

[@Nowaybozay]

Wasn’t Zach the reason Jen uninvited her friends to the baby blessing?

[@shelby477]

I disagree with everyone's take that Dakota just needs therapy and some growing up. I saw him completely not care that Taylor was very pregnant and very exhausted and he just wanted to fight and get his points across. He had absolutely no care or consideration for her. That is flat out abuse. I was with an abusive man and the more exhausted I was, the harder he came at me. So seeing that was far to familiar to her. Dakota wants to dominate the very successful, but very maverick Mormon woman and make her submit. I think he sees it as a challenge. And to ride her coattails to some fame. Notice he's also the one along with Zac to go to Vegas. It was just handy for him to have the close due date as an excuse. That entire trip he showed a complete lack of respect or boundaries. He shows all the red flags that should send any women running.

[@issyroylance5900]

💯

[@dontconfess2someday]

Haven't finished watching yet, but felt the need to comment about Mormon knowledge of human anatomy... I went to Utah Valley University (near BYU, the Church's university, and where majority was probably Mormon, but less Mormon than BYU) and when I took my Health 101 class in 2007 about half the class was covering up the diagrams of the human reproductive system or just not looking at them. They were all very uncomfortable. They weren't even pictures, just diagrams. Later, around 2014, I was working at a forensics job where the knowledge of female genitalia is helpful. I was training a new, male, Mormon coworker (who I actually knew in college) and felt the need to ask if he knew the general layout of the vulva/female genitalia - which was needed to understand a lot of the terminology being used with samples and how we processed them. He said he didn't... which, I feel like isn't as bad as a person who has that anatomy... but still not great as a scientist..? Hopefully, the knowledge was helpful for him and his soon-to-be wife.

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

As always we can and should speak to how the leadership, the organization, and the doctrine of the church produces people like Zach and his family. The church tried to distance themselves from this show, but the reality is that Zach's family represents the ideal to the Mormon leadership and organization. White and blonde, passive aggressive, loaded to their veneers with performative sanctimony, casually judgmental and preoccupied with obedience to the letter of the law. The leadership would be delighted if every family in the church was like Zach's. They'd love it if all the husbands and fathers in the church were like him.

[@wyogrl11]

With regards to women having to take the 2nd shift, it’s universal, not just with Mormons. We’re nevermos and I carry the majority of our household responsibilities. Just yesterday we got into a fight because I don’t help him enough with his area - the kitchen. This is after I changed the litter box, took out the garbage, cooked, and did laundry. And he’s a good man. But he’s a man, with a woman and I’m supposed to take care of everything.

[@whitefluffydogs9278]

Yeah, patriarchy is endemic to American culture.

[@lucindastigall1636]

Excusing men's behavior with "he's a man" not only lets them off the hook, it is condescending and infantilizing. We need to require men to step up and take equal responsibility. I think many women have compensated for second class status by reducing their men, by being condescending and dismissive of them as "men, what else could you expect.". How can this NOT be toxic to relationships?

[@sdarling6518]

@@whitefluffydogs9278 Endemic globally. Women all over the world are and have been working second and third shifts. There's nothing specifically American about sexism or male patriarchy except for LDS/Mormonism! Ha

[@laurieandrade125]

One thing I think people are missing is that Zac failed Dakota. Zac was supposed to be there to support Dakota and assumably he showed up and immediately abandoned Dakota for assumably hours so he could lose Jen’s money. Dakota in fairness to him. I think tried to see things from Taylor’s pov and as far as we know avoided temptation whilst he was in Vegas as a recovering addict. Don’t get me wrong Dakota still sucks but the way Zac completely centred himself and was willing to abandon both Dakota and Jen despite promising to look out for both of them. Is really gross.

[@stephaniegraham1267]

AS a therapist that works with victims of domestic violence and teaches batterers intervention classes, Zac's behaviors are a huge red flag, and it goes way beyond the Chippendale issue. Jen needs to run!

[@lucindastigall1636]

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Is it surprising that giving men absolute "priesthood power" over the family can turn out badly?

[@Christina-Claire]

I just could not stop thinking about Jen and Zack the other night. As a person of colour, there was another layer to their relationship that is difficult to discuss. It is very apparent at the baby blessing when Jen mentions her mother, who does not speak English, and is a cleaner in the hospital that Zack’s father works at. I do not know if people recognize how isolated her mother appears, though this is her grandchild’s blessing. This brings another facet to the relationship where even though Jen is making all this money, because of her mother, and maybe implicitly because of her mixed heritage, I believe she is made to feel less than. I think this possibly makes it easier for Zack to denigrate her, and for her to feel as though that it is ‘right’, considering everything you have discussed about race and the LDS faith.

[@bunnysparkles9453]

My Morman x husband had a gambling addiction. He gambled our savings and retirement. He also loved the cat houses and drank boat loads of soda. 🥤 I’ve been divorced for decades. He’s on wife number seven. His mother was raised in the salt flats by polygamists .

[@angieweidner-schmitt9883]

Zac has BIG future stake president energy.

[@rebeccacall7348]

My sister is getting a divorce from her Mormon husband, and he absolutely used the church against her. With scriptures, past general conference talks, and Ensign articles, he painted himself as this priesthood prize while she was the harlot breaking up their eternal family. What boggles my mind is it did not give my TBM family pause when this man, who abused my sister in ways I can't even disclose, could quickly and easily find mountains of church resources to condone his behavior and back up his arguments.

[@sarahannelawson6311]

Side note - Brett Enneagrams sister was Shawn Enneagram / King. She married Larry King and there was an alleged scandal with Larry and his wife’s sister.

[@sallyostling]

Alyssa's haircut, A+. Enjoyed the conversation. I stopped at episode 6, I got tired of the mean girl stuff so I appreciate an intelligent breakdown! ❤❤❤

[@Britbec]

Right?! Such a chic cut!

[@franperez4663]

😂 Zack's family's comments. Of course... Zack is the greatest ever. He is just perfect. Thanks John and Guests... great conversation. Liked!

[@bombadillo2]

Love this series!! I would love a Part 4 based on the TikToks that have come out since the show was filmed. Because there are updates happening there, and I bet lots of listeners would be into a summary.

[@leesacoles9154]

I think zac was threatening Jen.

[@Ceibhfhionn]

More trenchant analysis and another great guest. Amazing work as always and thank you for sharing it on a public platform!

[@TheEuniceBurns1]

Hayley’s very accurate comments re: Zac’s family circling the wagons around him, but keeping Jen pretty firmly on the outside at 1:05:35. This is unfortunately a really common dynamic in so many TBM families, and I think it’s considered more acceptable/justfiable since President Nelson’s “God’s love is not unconditional” teachings. It has released so many from the requirement to love everyone - obedient or not - as Christ loves us. And I see that attitude quickly bleeding into other, louder areas of human “imperfection” like LGBTQ friends & family members, those who question Church leaders, and [ironically, considering Zac’s gambling] those with addiction struggles.

[@AgingStudent]

Dakota's aggression during pregancy, the language to submit and surrender, and pushing past women in a women's space to wake up and go after a very pregnant woman verbally and emotionally waa terrifying to me. I found the birth water breaking video to be very performative and creepy. He says "we were just talking" and Taylor responds "yeah" but has disclosed that they were in another "argument" about her not submitting and marrying. Anytime Taylor says "argument" I asaume it is Dakota harranguing her to surrender. Which, btw, gives him legal and cultural rights to all of her income and assests. Something which she has built over her 20,'s and he at 31 does not have and shows no ability to acheive

[@tamicarper2886]

I seen that as well, I seen through him wanting to push her to marry him as him taking over her assets only he doesn't seem the "turned it around" kinda fellas. With his little boxes to move into Taylor's huge home

[@leesacoles9154]

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT ABOUT MARGIE! I LOVE THAT!

[@barbiforrest1196]

I was a Mormon & married a Mormon.. He abused me & left some deep trauma, I turned to my ward president & the church for help & they supported my husband & not me.. I felt so let down by the church & them supporting the man who abused me & left me all alone.. I left the church after this as I couldn’t be a part of an organisation that allowed abuse & didn’t help the person suffering through it.. The church is all about the patriarchy & doesn’t care about the matriarchy 😢

[@MapleLeafsGirl77]

Depends...my sister's husband is amazing! My ex was a complete narcissist ass and my sole purpose was to serve him. I don't think his mom helped with that. Her boys were her world, and she dropped everything to do what her boys needed...and he expected the same of me. I grew up 2nd oldest in a family of 6 kids, and we (the older ones) didn't get that luxury. 😂 We did for ourselves, and we're taught to be independent. Neendless to say, that's just one of the reasons things didn't work out. He also blamed me for everything in our marriage counseling and said I just needed to be put on Prozac.😂😂 Last I checked, Prozac didn't cure your husband of being a narcissist. He monitored my prescription and whether or not I was filling it. One day the therapist finally explained to him that depression is in a couple different forms...one is chemical and the other is environmental and Prozac can't change someone's environment and my depression was a result of my environment. 🤷🏻‍♀️ He didn't like that answer.

[@Cocoon68]

I have to say that men have actually improved where children and their care come in. I think society itself has improved in that way and the expectations of men and women as partners have gotten better..

[@laurettaleone6482]

This discussion has so much value to us transitioning out of the damaging patriarchy. It is so wonderful to hear the intelligence of the womyn and men in this, how informed they are, how much they introspect to what is just and supportive of BOTH people in a relationship. I do feel that showcasing sexy to get likes/a following, etc. is exploiting womyn. That a husband would get something "positive" out of this, suggests that it would be because his "wife" being sexy does what??? Bring "envy" that he has this ? ugh. When will we move away from this objectification? Even hearing the reluctance to discuss this, as in "I am not saying this is not ok to do i.e. her being sexy" (publicly). Also, the high heels and makeup issue, was framed as being "fun" to do, yet it IS uncomfortable and it IS hard on the body (skin etc). The question then is why is it programmed in girls to be "fun"? Something programmed this, as healthy humans reach to be comfortable and do things that are healthy for self. I love that these kinds of discussion ALLOW for more digging towards health , something lost in this culture we live in. As Dr. Carol Gilligan asked in her life's work and the title of a book her and Naomi Snider created "Why Does Patriarchy Persist?" when humans are wired to resist infection (things that hurt us, are bad for us etc.) She did find out what was stopping us. Her discussion with Naomi and others can be found on KZbin. I am SO grateful for these kinds of discussions!!!! It is helping ME understand all that confused and caused damage to me, and it helps validate what I took thousands of hours and research and introspection and backlash for finding and reaching for throughout my life. We all just want to be authentic and connected/loved. To love and be loved, yet the system we live in disconnects us from both of those things. Thanks for daring to be authentic and to reach to stay connected while doing that.

[@emilydeboer7489]

I was married to a guy like Zac. He used priesthood blessings to manipulate me, like HF was taking his side in whatever issue we had. He also had issues with appropriate behavior with other women, even minors. If I spoke up He would tell me that he was one of HF elite, and would be needed to accept multiple wives so I needed to get used to the idea of sharing him and work on my jealousy. I imagine what we see with Zac is only the tip of the iceberg, I really feel for Jen and hope she is able to see her situation through a lense that isn't rose colored. She deserves so much better.

[@Jiirah]

Answer: Too frequently, YES. There was a big reason why I was always more interested in nonmembers as a born-in-the Church woman, and it wasn’t because I had an interest in “dating bad boys”. Nonmembers weren’t as judgmental. Imagine that. 🙄

[@firebird189]

Oh Jen, he love-bombed you sweetie, classic narcissism. I lived with it for 32 years. The emotional abuse became physical. Don't do what I did. Narcissists do not change. God does not want you to suffer.

[@camiturpin4955]

Yes yes yes about not just Mormon men, but also Mormon women viewing equitable marriages as abusive to men!!! My husband and I have always been pretty equitable, as much as we could be in mormonville. I certainly never felt like he could tell me what to do or “allow” me to do anything. He never wanted to preside over me! But just knowing that my husband treated me well, or that I was somehow allowed to voice my opinion in our home, or that my husband shared in the chores and child-caring, made so many of my friends uncomfortable. They considered me abusive. It made me feel a little crazy for quite a while. (And this was not in Utah, but I definitely found the same thing to be true in Utah as well.) Women put up with SO much abuse in the name of the priesthood. And they talk about it like it is no big deal! I can’t imagine what goes on that they don’t talk about. It makes me so worried for so many of them.

[@LenaLindroth-g1v]

The last year when I’ve been sick I stumble over your podcast. Love all the historians- and social stories. It is a way to find way to see structures even outside mormonism. Your guests are allways so knowledge and intresting. One thing I have to say it so strange that every singel woman is beutiful and looks so young. That is desturbing to me. I mean people that is nice to your eye is fine, but every time Im in US ( inclueding Utah), many anericans are prettty normal or dull. Any how I have allmost listen to major part of your shows so THANK YOU

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

Having a baby to recuperate an image after a PR crisis just sounds so sad for that baby.....

[@hillaryherbopelis]

The church raises women to accept this behavior. My mom married two men like this. I married one. The other women in the show who were remarried had gone through this with their first husband. Unfortunately, divorce isn’t the norm. The idea of shame and rejection from the ward is more unbearable than the marriage. There is no support to leave. You just have to pray harder.

[@elisa-beary]

Wow, I don’t have social media (unless you count this) so idk about the way Zack’s family spoke out about his behavior or the post Katy made- gross!! As if I didn’t find this all awful enough for Jen, who genuinely seemed like the kindest, most caring, good hearted person. I can’t believe Katy said she trashed him on the show when all that happened was his ACTUAL gross, demeaning, scary & I don’t throw this word around but narcissistic tendencies were shown & seen by people outside the church. It was abusive. End of story! To see everyone co-signing this behavior in her own family while turning it on her when she LEFT, beside herself with anxiety (&fear?) over his reaction…. Which was worse than I expected it to be at that moment. WHILE he was gambling which is also against the church’s rules w/ her money after blowing the money his parents gave him to help with school cuz… Jen will just pay for that too. Makes me wonder if she’ll even want to be on season 2 or will fear this level of real world repercussions for her? She deserves soooooo so so much better from her husband & father of her children as well as his entire family she’s supposed to have married into. Heartbreaking!!

[@dkjeeksksskdkdkdkd3551]

Zach seems so self righteous that if the roles were switched he would be telling Jenn to get use to his decisions ...and again giving the threat of divorce if she can't handle it.

[@ninaanicin4748]

34:35 😂😂😂 John is so wholesome for this 💛

[@BeHopeArts]

I just want to touch on how racist the term “beef curtains” is… it’s from of mutilation that’s root practice is found with that of female circumcision and has a gruesome history attached to it.

[@Foghorn-tr1je]

Oh wow. I didn’t know that.

[@BeHopeArts]

@@Foghorn-tr1je it’s something I learned in the last month and I was shocked.. I’ve started researching the history of common terms and phrases to try and keep myself in check since finding out

[@bullfrogger8989]

I’m disappointed that this podcast only spoke about the MomTok group as supportive of Jen. I see it very differently. If they were really a good supportive group to Jen, then why did they even put her in this position at all? Supposedly they are all Mormon at some level or another, which means that they have some understanding of Mormon beliefs even if they all follow them at varying levels. The idea that they’re planning a “surprise” activity that they presumably know will, or very likely could, be VERY uncomfortable to even offensive to some of the group, seems antithetical to what a friend would do. Especially considering the reaction to the alcohol in the hot tub incident. It shows a pattern of a purposeful attempt to blatantly be disrespectful and uncaring towards the faith of their “friends”. You could spin it and say that it is Zac speaking through Jen, that she only is upset because he is. However, why would you assume that? The MomTok group presents itself as supportive, but in a lot of ways it also seems to be destructive to their individual relationships outside the group. But nobody seems to be discussing that part.

[@AgingStudent]

Well, why should everyone capitulate to Zac's insane desires. That's how the patriarchy uses tge system to keep all women and men "in line." It's very clear Chippendales paid for promo so it's basically a work trip. If Zac doesn't want that, he shpuld have a normal, non psycho conversation and GET A JOB. He is dependent on her income because he gambled away his family nest egg from his parents. He is too good to clean toilets and a grease fryer to contribute? Then he has no input into her saying yes or no to a work event to pay his family's bills. This is a job.

[@indastu]

The vulva topic, while it is empowering for these women I do think it is their late development that causes this. I remember doing this kind of stuff in middle school and maybe early highschool but I don’t know anyone who does this now as an adult. Cringy, yes but I do think for them it’s good.

[@AgingStudent]

And generally, women speaking about body changes in pregnancy and post partum life is not spoken about freely in any culture. I loved that Jen seemed so into it. I loved that she called her painting Mother Vulva and said she was experiencing full menstruation.

[@DanielFreed-f2b]

This has been very good!

[@rolo8950]

The stuff Zac was saying to his wife over text was so manipulative and cruel and evil. My wife and I would never speak to each other that way ever. The fact he was actively saying that he was going to divorce her when he didn't really mean it, was terrible. Then we findout that he gambled his families college money for him, thus leaving all the financial burden on his wife....then he gambled the 2000 dollars away too.....like he's a gambling addict full blown and no one wants to talk about it when it's true. Whitney is a narcissist or has a personality disorder. She's very very manipulative and she can't stand when she doesn't get the attention and response that she wants. And her husband is closeted gay, for sure. I think that's partially why she acts the way she does because she knows her family is hanging by a single thread of Mormonism because as soon as they leave Mormonism he's coming out as gay and destroying their family. Dakota is just clingy, and a lot....but I didn't think he was just a bad guy. I think that him and Taylor moved way too fast. Like Taylor wasn't even divorced yet.... Ultimately Taylor is the villain in my eyes. She moved on when she wasn't divorced yet....she showed her young child what not to do with her life. Like I think that Taylor is the most selfish, juvenile person I've ever heard of.

[@katiesmith9176]

I couldn’t get past the first episode but I like hearing y’all talking about it 😂

[@Gmom2023]

I went to chippendales in my 20’s (1981) married, active Mormon! It’s just a show for fun. I had a hard time with rules! Now 67 years old and glad I didn’t conform to the rules like a lot of others. I went onto be young women’s President, stake young women’s etc. I left the Mormon church 10 years ago. Thank you or helping me through those first years of deconstruction! You provide a great service. Definitely a fan in Seattle. Ann skinner.

[@leesacoles9154]

I would say most people in the “Mormon community” didn’t know anything about these girls or what they did before. Including Taylor. I’ve never heard of these people until this show came out.

[@OutlawLegacy808]

Yes they are! Mormons live in the old ways. Women work, raise the kids, run the kids everywhere for sports and dance...etc, house chores and make sure dinner is ready for the hubby. Men work, do recreational things with buddies and expect their wives to treat them like kings and expect dinner to be ready. If you be the good guy and lend an ear to a Mormon wife and just listen I can almost guarantee you'll have a perfectly fine bed buddy because all she wants is attention that she's not getting. I'm surrounded by Mormons in Utah County and every one of my neighbors are in their 2nd or 3rd marriage. Infidelity is crazy here in Utah

[@loriherbst7043]

I disagree that this is satire. Reality TV is simply modern day freak shows. People like to feel elevated and beyond, but we’re really not. It’s okay with me, no adult person is forced into this, we just need laws that protect the little ones. Otherwise sit back and enjoy the show!

[@avantgauche]

Zack scares me because he wants to be a Surgeon .who wants someone with control issues and a gambling addiction as a surgeon

[@danielledore9682]

Aren’t most surgeons considered narcissistic egomaniacs? So it’s kinda like what’s the real problem here, know what I mean?

[@shannonodowd1198]

I always heard surgeons are huge aholes. Zac fits right in. Jenn can try to explain it away but Zac is problematic.

[@rlongmoreable]

Classic surgeon lol

[@AgingStudent]

Great wide ranging conversations. In regards to Taylor getting pregnant...I see a lot of capitualting to sexual interactions in Taylor. We really are taught to do that as women. It is worse when we are vulnerable, have experienced SA, and when a woman has already had children. Consent becomes murky, disassociation is an issue and feeling valued, desired and the feeling of being damged goods who should feel or does feel grateful.

[@Meristem968]

Yay Hayley!! Love to see her on the pod ❤️

[@leesacoles9154]

Brett also had a second wife before demi. Demi is at least his 3rd.

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

Some gumps just don’t learn keep marrying and get divorce grape over and over lol

[@freya5205]

The answer is ABSOLUTELY YES THEY ARE DANGEROUS!

[@avantgauche]

great conversation

[@swissmeringue]

I am sure the producers were watching Mormon stories before making this show😊

[@SarahBoyden]

Thanks for the show! Alyssa mentioned a podcast where nyc nevermo’s learn about Mormonism & are shocked. Can I get the name of that podcast? Thanks!

[@lyslikeswords]

It was just one episode where they were learning about Mormonism because they were trying to contextualize the SLOMW, but it’s called Rich Text!

[@SarahBoyden]

@@lyslikeswords thank you!

[@liamooney342]

I haven’t seen anyone discuss Whitney’s emotions related to her pregnancy. A lot of the cast members kept saying “She’s never been this emotional before”. When it’s revealed that she is pregnant nobody seems to connect the dots on or off the show. It doesn’t excuse her actions but might explain some of her high emotional states.

[@leesacoles9154]

But zac is definitely #1 villain

[@leesacoles9154]

Of course Mayci had to tell Taylor! That’s a real friend.

[@Jsmith6644]

Where can I find the studies of getting married young and having families young is harmful? I was discussing withy sister this and she was saying it wasn’t true and I didn’t know what I was saying 🤦‍♀️😡

[@amy.paris.1534]

About Chippendales, I think John is on the mark on this one. As a former mormon, I would never go to a strip club or a sexy entertainment show or whatever. Some of my former mormon friends might've gone when they were single, but they wouldn't do it while they're dating/married just out of respect for their partner

[@leesacoles9154]

I wouldn’t mind getting plastic surgery/mommy makeover but I actually need it. Like it’s a medical necessity for several reasons. I just keep putting it off. Plus $$$. A lot of women don’t seem to actually need it but I fully support women in their choices. Whatever makes them feel better. I had 5 babies and I’m wrecked. 😢 Literally. And I hate heels and don’t wear them anymore. So thanks for that John!!

[@sdarling6518]

Fully supporting womens' choices to perpetuate sexism and white supremacist beauty standards (which harms us all). Ok. Also, cosmetic surgery makes eating disorders, disordered eating, and body dysmorphia worse.

[@lumanwalters_]

Jen should have come back with "having to pay child support while going to medical school sounds pretty tough" Also...........comparing his wife with his cousin is sus. Does Zac want to get with his cousin?

[@Annie5825]

Okay, on top of the pee on the pregnancy test there’s non-food grade plastic and who knows what reagents to make it work. Don’t use stuff that’s not food safe for/in food.

[@notidealist1]

Isn't against Mormon doctrine to gamble?

[@babybunny420]

i need a whole episode on the vial files interview the cast did - where they spoke about the family proclamation promoting gender equality HA! and the “sacred not secret” temple rituals. would love to hear your take!

[@LoraleeArmstrongNunley]

Bob Engeman ( sp) was a letterman singer band in the 70’s. My parents bought his house.

[@ka8544]

How has no one addressed ABORTION for Taylor?!? Maybe it was a secretly wanted pregnancy. But I find it mind blowing that no one asked her if she was going to keep the baby!!!!

[@susanstephan7689]

I'd argue that the TikTok dancing vs. Chippendales thing plays right into purity culture. The dancing is viewed as okay because it appeals to the hetero male gaze. It can be seen as something she's doing 'for him', whereas going to Chippendales is not something that is being done in service of her husband or children, it's purely something fun for her to do. I think people in patriarchal religion have a problem when women are seen doing ANYTHING that is purely for their own enjoyment and doesn't have any other purpose.

[@paulabettencourt7950]

Yes!!! I have been married to one for 18 years. He recently left me for multiple women!!! I am so 💔

[@tamicarper2886]

Non mormon her but from what ive observed is that the woman is supposed to get a degree in college to support her husband UNTIL he get his degree and that she can teach her children and thats IT!!!

[@crystalcordell7102]

the way I was treated while still in the church was insanity it was so emotionally damaging

[@Songsofourown23]

Around the time you were talking about Polygamy wich they all say is in the past but is actually in the future. I cannot get it out of my mind what Ryan from Timmy Did What ? said that Polygamy was just like Slavery.And that stopped me in my tracks because for some women including myself marriages to a Mormon man felt like slavery and truthfully my last relationship with an ex Mormon raised in the church also felt like slavery. I do not take the comparison lightly. It felt like women are just transactional and i. Essence chattel.

[@leesacoles9154]

That’s hilarious about fhe. The moms USUALLY ended up planning and pulling off fhe. Not the men. 😆

[@Millae6]

I wish we knew how much was real or made up for added drama

[@mermaidcalissa137]

I was married to a Zach! But then he left Mormonism and kept all the Mormon gender role expectations and male entitlement.

[@thelastgoonie6555]

Whitney's fashion sense is the real villain.

[@gutierka]

Watched this episode to have some fun hearing about the silly dumb women on the show. But I think this is the most educational and deep episode for me. Now see the women in a completely different light. 😮 ❤

[@hanatemonstas4485]

I am a woman but I agree with John’s point about Chippendales being similar to a strip club or at least Hooters. Like the panelists weren’t wrong the reverse is a lot more tolerated, women aren’t solely viewing the shows for titaliations purposes, and its only when women do it, and I get lot of the actors are fine with it but I don’t think its insecure for husbands or partners to not be ok with their partners going to Chipendales or oiling up the actors. (the same would be true if guys go to Hooters or those sketchy bachleor’s parties).

[@morningbread1139]

Hey I have a question about Whitney drinking. The bottle was from the realtor. Would a realtor in Utah give a bottle of champagne?

[@JackAsinus]

I've come to a conclusion, a long time in forming, that it isn't 'what is done' but more of 'why its done.' Someone gets a boob job, I reserve internal judgement. I find why they get a boob job and then I have a more complete picture.

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

It’s pretty simple they get boob jobs to get male attention. Male attention is a drug for most women. If a husband pays for his wife’s boob job there’s a very high likelihood that she at least cheat if not divorce. Anyone that disagrees is clueless to female nature. Call me misogynistic don’t care. I ran out of f’s to give what people think of me

[@stephaniegraham1267]

It's really no one's business why they choose any of the decisions surrounding their body!

[@jamiehamel3183]

I fell for the clickbait 😂❤

[@tamicarper2886]

Jenn husband threatening divorce and how jenn would handle that with 2 kids im like much better. She doesnt have his medical school dept and gambling dept to deal with. WOW!! he is not aware of his surroundings and situation

[@jamiepotts6102]

Verbally/emotionally abusive husband, patriarchy, expectation to parent your husband, respecting/submitting to your husband plus secrecy? Ask me how I know lol Kept me quiet and struggling to try to fix him/our marriage for YEARS when I was unhappy and wishing I could easily leave

[@leesacoles9154]

The painting thing was bizarre

[@Annie5825]

Can we also talk about how much alterations to the lady-bits seems to be geared towards making them look younger, sometimes to the point of looking not fully-adult.

[@KP-nf4yl]

So here’s what I got from the Jen/Zac scenario: Zac & his family: “We ‘white and delightsome,’ wealthy, pioneer stock Mormons get to dictate what your brown, ‘come-from-nothing,’ convert self does, no matter what your contributions are.” Jen: “Gosh, I wonder if my paying Zac’s & our children’s way counts for anything?” All the while, he continues to GAMBLE HER MONEY AWAY - gambling itself being against the “Mormon rules,” btw. Poor Jen - those Afflecks DEFinitely seem like jerks!

[@padfootdoggy]

I will say this about Jen and having a baby, sadly influencer love having babies cause it makes them more money and to mormon women that is what they are made for. Makes me sick

[@leesacoles9154]

I love Alyssa’s haircut!

[@annekimberling2825]

31:31 how did Jen not know what her vulva looks like when she said that she did a full frontal photo for her husband? Maybe she didn’t look at it? Sad.