A heaven with Brigham Young is not a heaven I would want to be in.
@bewitched3912Ай бұрын
@@mellisagreen7801 that's the honest truth and I fully agree!
@kasspriscilla9350Ай бұрын
Sounds like what Nazism is Adolf Hitler wanted to have a pure race
@robertb6889Ай бұрын
As a man married to a biracial woman, thank you so much. This series has been extremely meaningful. I wish I could donate right now, because this is so healing to understand, and has really helped confirm my decision to protect my children from this legacy.
@kristenp5234Ай бұрын
I was never told about this growing up in the church either. It's a surprise to me now as a 48 year old woman with children in an interracial marriage. It makes so much sense to me now why we were treated the way we were. I'm with Summer. It's painful to find out and to know that some in my community and family were probably looking down on me for so many reasons. Ugh.
@mgeuleinstsearАй бұрын
My parents were converts to the Church during the 1970s, so they accepted the teaching of Blacks being less valiant in the premarital existence. One day, I asked my dad why some people had dark skin, and was told what the Church had taught my parents. Guess how I felt about Black people when I was a kid? I’ve never been a racist person and had friends from all kinds of cultural backgrounds, but it somehow still does something to your brain when you are taught that Blacks were less valiant and hesistant to choose Jesus’ plan. Really sad to think about it… such an awful thing to teach to people.
@hturt4Ай бұрын
Love these episodes with Matt Harris, a true scholar. 🙏🏼
@matthewbhydeАй бұрын
It’s painfully tragic to acknowledge that after white slaveholders had been impregnating enslaved women for centuries, white folks then became hypocritically concerned about interracial marriage.
@badsneakers917Ай бұрын
I've noticed lot of racists also (openly or otherwise) sexually fetishize people of other races. I think that plays a role in it. SA was definitely widespread in slavery.
@gregoryturnbow4841Ай бұрын
Thanks!
@TheSainteliasАй бұрын
Double speak always gives church leadership a way out, both ways on any topic.
@garikj766Ай бұрын
Agreed, doublespeak and playing both high and low roads to make them seem like either soft and hard powers - to make pincer moves.
@patriciatorres5599Ай бұрын
I love this episode thank you for open our eyes about the church
@dionclark6581Ай бұрын
Thank you Summer Rain, you live up to your name!
@katieshelton8117Ай бұрын
So excited! This has been one of my favorites. I really appreciate looking at it from all sides, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and recognizing the humanity. This is the kind of ex mormonism I love. Thank you, Matt, for the breath of fresh air when there is so much (rightfully so) negativity surrounding the church. I was sad to learn about the context in which the song I Believe In Christ was written, but it is what it is. This whole series gives me hope that the same things can happen for the LGTBQ community someday. I wish it would be done sooner than it will be.
@bewitched3912Ай бұрын
@@katieshelton8117 Ditto! I'm hoping for the best outcome as well!
@whitesalamanderАй бұрын
Summer Rain’s droplets 💧 of wisdom create a colorful prism of enlightenment Mormon Brethren should bask in👏
@corrincrellinАй бұрын
Ah man, I teared up seeing Summer Rain after listening to just the audio podcast. She glows so hard just in audio it's great to see her beautiful smile now! Thanks to all you guys, but especially Matt Harris for such dutiful, professional but equally compassionate work in the making of this important book. Matt deserves all the praise possible!!!
@areyoulivingthelifeofyourdreamАй бұрын
Thank you for bringing these things to light.
@badsneakers917Ай бұрын
Brigham Young was simply a particularly appalling person especially regarding his views on race and gender. Even if one was to judge him as "a man of his time" he was still appalling. Thank you to Dr Harris and the MSP crew for continuing to shine a light on these issues.
@rmj4978Ай бұрын
Matt’s latest book deserves to be translated to at least Portuguese!
@BunnyWatson-k1wАй бұрын
At 1:54:00. Gospel topics essays. The essays were heavily edited down to what you see today. The church regularly revises the essays. It takes the link down and then re-posts a few hours or days later. I caught the church doing this a couple years back. Same with their A-Z list of topics on church history. Authors have told about the GTE they submit being heavily edited down by church history staff, or being cancelled for inclusion altogether. For example, and 80 page essay edited down to 10 pages will suffer in terms of the original information from the author.
@stingray4realАй бұрын
The Young Men/Young Women booklet For The Strength of Youth. The booklet discouraged mixed race marriage and relationships. It was later removed from the booklet.
@sanachristian4577Ай бұрын
Thanks! Love your show. ✌🏽☯️
@cheerfulcoffee1568Ай бұрын
I just read a line by a Mary Ann Leonard and as much as I respect her points of view, having left the church after 50 plus years. I can tell her, THERE is A LIFE outside the church, there is spirituality outside the chuch, there is a JESUS and a GOD (the real ones) outside the church, there is a meaningful life outside the church maybe even more THAN within the church.
@glenhale8234Ай бұрын
Why, when President Kimball obtained the word of God to lift the ban, didn’t all of the twelve simply sustain the revelation regardless of their socially preconceived beliefs. The only explanation is that none of them really believed that President Kimball could receive a revelation from god. Or, they believed that even if it was a revelation they could argue that his was wrong. All of this seems so simply if prophets really received revelation.
@timmiestabrnakАй бұрын
This but also it’s even worse than this. The president is sustained as “the prophet” but all 15 are ordained “prophet, seer and Revelator” so according to their narrative God tells them different things or some are in rebellion and yet Hod doesn’t remove them completely?
@Dr_Wayne_DentonАй бұрын
I love that Matt referenced the African American Oral History Project at BYU. I utilized the materials to analyze African American converts' awareness of the priesthood ban before meeting with missionaries. I was amazed that so many missionaries failed to mention the ban when asked by converts. Overall, the archive is a treasure trove.
@debbieshrubb1222Ай бұрын
Still waiting for Matt's book to become available in the UK.
@BG-ig6fdАй бұрын
That the recommendation to not marry inter-racially is still in the manual offered today…….wouldn’t this be a federal offence? How can a university remain open if they make such statements, in 2024?
@markkrispin6944Ай бұрын
Mormonism: Racist since 1830 and always will be.
@msurkan1Ай бұрын
I would love to hear if there was a backlash to the lifting of the ban. Was there any significant departure of members?
@philclegg8169Ай бұрын
11:34 this is gross. Should be enough to show they are not what they claim to be.
@rodneyhuckaby8716Ай бұрын
I listened to this entire episode, waiting for this panel to mention that Russell Nelson, the current president of the church, has also taught against interracial marriage. In his 1995 BYU speech, the climax of the talk was to warn against interracial marriages. He then almost gives the exact same speech during general conference for April 1995, but he leaves the explicit parts out. However, you can find the explicit part in his footnotes. Footnote 38 to be exact. You all should check it out. It made me sick reading it. - Rodney Huckaby
@johnsnedАй бұрын
It was in the previous Aarronic Priesthood manual. “We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background”
@bewitched3912Ай бұрын
@@johnsned agreed, and the bretheren insist women are not more educated than their husbands, hence the oxen reference in being "equally yoked" rendering women as breeder cattle.
@MGom1963Ай бұрын
I joined the church when I was 17 because I was dating a girl who was Mormon. Her dad said I either take the missionary lessons or go find a catholic girl to date. I am Mexican American. My intention was to take the missionary lessons to buy some time, then say no thanks, but I liked what I heard and after about 4 lessons decided to be baptized. When our relationship progressed when contemplated getting married but my Bishop told me we shouldn’t because I was Mexican. Her dad was the Bishop🤣 43 years married,6 kids,14 grandkids and still going strong! My in-laws treated me with love and respect in spite of their initial feelings. I was never aware of the racist doctrine and feelings of the members till years later. That’s probably a good thing.
@TOPLAMKSАй бұрын
When I got engaged to my Mexican husband, my mom said to me, “You know what your kids last name will be, don’t you?” My family of origin have never treated him respectfully.
@Dutchess0909Ай бұрын
That is sooooo sad
@bewitched3912Ай бұрын
@@TOPLAMKS I am so sorry. You both deserve much better! It would be great if his name was Jesus and you pronounced it like the biblical way in front of your family!!
@MGom1963Ай бұрын
When my wife’s family in Utah first met me, they said”he doesn’t even seem like he’s Mexican “. I wasn’t sure what that meant but they didn’t have much contact with minorities back then.
@lilatuellerАй бұрын
Alan Cherry died!?! I loved him! He was a dear friend of my family
@julie19030Ай бұрын
Leaders who hold/held views of prejudice create/created God in their own image by casting their views onto God, using God as a scapegoat.
@pamelatdАй бұрын
When I was in college at BYUI, maybe 2009, my grandma had all of us girls over to watch Not Without My Daughter. She was really worried we'd marry someone outside of our race and this was her scare tactic I guess. When we got in the car my sister and I said to our little sister, who was in high school, "grandma is wrong."
@williamwallaceg2627Ай бұрын
I’m ashamed I couldn’t see so many problems with the Mormon church until I stepped away.
@Maryfs1Ай бұрын
59:30 that Supreme Court line add me laughing out loud.
@vp3970Ай бұрын
My wife is Korean, Hawaiian, Scottish and English; I’m Hawaiian, Filipino and English. My daughter married a guy who is Samoan- German. If I was to follow SW Kimball’s admonition, who should my granddaughter marry? We are from Hawaii. 🌺
@JP-JustSayinАй бұрын
Polluted blood? Where have i heard THIS before? 🙄
@vp3970Ай бұрын
BYU Hawaii was formerly called Church College Hawaii.
@Songsofourown23Ай бұрын
This episode encompasses so many of my experience in the church. I was in an interracial marriage then aa a divorced woman of color. Any time a white or non black ( there were no black men in any ward I was in btw) man had a conversation with me a Priesthood holder always ran up to tell me some reason that I should not habe. Conversation with them or àsked them what they were doing talking to me. In th YSA ward a guy made sure I heard him say he only dated white women. Its still very racist in the Ex Mormon world as well.
@TheSainteliasАй бұрын
Prophets who claim to speak for Jesus one true church who can’t figure out how the atonement works? Jesus isn’t very good at speaking to his chosen leaders.
@MormonSponge3 күн бұрын
Speaking of marrying or not marrying within a group, would any of you have serious reservations with OR be tempted to intervene with your child who was considering marrying a lifelong TBM grandchild of a GA or Q15?
@fredfernandez9472Ай бұрын
i just moved out of Preston Idaho after 8 years because of these things. i married my wife who is white in Idaho where i meat her. that resulted in us leaving the church and eventually Idaho not what we wanted but had to do
@GoFergis1Ай бұрын
This whole series really makes me wonder who is running the show?? The President, as we are told, or various strong willed apostles, the correlation committee, etc. it seems quite chaotic.
@MadeleineCookieszАй бұрын
I’m always left sooo confused whenever Summur-Rayn is on. 😅 She’s spent many hours cogently dissecting LDS systemic racism in this series. Yet her father, Rep. Burgess Owens, introduced legislation to ban discussing systemic racism-aka critical race theory (CRT)-at the federal level, and she’s his senior political strategist. How can a person simultaneously be for one and against the other? I feel like one of the main themes which emerges in Matt Harris’ book is that LDS systemic racism was always borne out of, and always a reflection of, the broader systemic racism in America generally. It seems a bit like a person saying they love rocky road ice cream, while also saying they hate all ice cream. Of course, I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. Maybe it’s one of those situations where Summur-Rayn actually is pro-CRT, and just has to hold her peace to maintain family and work relationships. At any rate, I’m no super-expert on CRT; I’d enjoy hearing Dr. Harris, Dr. Smith, Summur-Rayn, and Nate discuss CRT sometime, and how (or if) it intersects with this discussion series.
@oddcheese6384Ай бұрын
The term “racially pure” implies that another race is impure.
@GideonslcАй бұрын
One of the great things about word is the find and replace feature. After I read the CES letter I put the Book of Mormon in my own word document and started making changes- like finding & removing "and it came to pass. After doing some Judaism ractuach I removed Jew & replaced it with Israelite. It's not hard to do similar searches with manuals. You just have to want to find and fix the offending text. There's zero defense I'll give to the organization on the matter. Look at what happened with Hugh B Brown, & with Nemo recently. Members on the correlation committe don't do the right thing and let the consequence follow because they could get fired and or excommunicated by the leadership they intend to help who seem to want to reserve the right to duplicitous communication. It's a D&C 121 problem.
@robertb6889Ай бұрын
The quotes have been sanitized - using an ellipsis about race as they update it.
@RaembowbriteАй бұрын
At 1:15 you mention two BIPOC general authorities who are married to white women. You posit that you’d love to know what their thoughts are on the matter. I’d be more curious to know what the thoughts are from general authorities married to people of color, if there are any. 🤔 (And, if you don’t know why that makes a difference you are missing the point about the church and racism.)
@Songsofourown23Ай бұрын
I am sure there are none
@thomasmaughan4798Ай бұрын
You make your choices. I make my choices.
@matthewbhydeАй бұрын
Wow, listening live without being able to speed it up is so weird for me right now! 😅
@Ruby6855Ай бұрын
If you tune in late to the video, you can speed it up.
@curtbremnerАй бұрын
43:48 Really? KZbin casts intended to be viewed by people driving their cars as well as by those not when distracted drivers are four times more likely to kill than intoxicated drivers?
@sheliabryant3997Ай бұрын
Can't quite articulate why, but the airing DATE of this podcast brings a sardonic curl of the lip and a lurching weight of heart that are, together, momentously Shakespearean.
@garikj766Ай бұрын
There are many important bits in this one. Ill elaborate when I have the time in a few days. Don't have the time currently.
@MsLopez-fu8xvАй бұрын
I find it confusing, both my parents are latin one from Puerto Rico the other from the Dominican Republic. One fair skinned and the other darker. Yet, being Latin has nothing to do with it?
@yams317Ай бұрын
i really appreciate the historian perspective matt brings. though to push back slightly about something he said. i think historians help with the “what”-what happened and what was the historical context. the “why” question is a faith question. why are these men of their time when they are supposedly prophets? the “what” helps us think through the “why”
@yams31714 күн бұрын
my comment pushed back at when matt dismissingly asked why joseph fielding smith would be progressive on race. being a secular historian doesn’t mean answering a question while discarding all faith aspects. it means knowing which questions can and can’t be answered on a purely historical basis. the question why would JFS be progressive on race requires BOTH historical context and your expectations on how much foresight a prophet should have. a historian cannot answer this question without taking a stance on religion (either for or against). in contrast, they can make a statement that JFS’s views on race were consistent with the time period. subtle but important distinction
@yams31713 күн бұрын
@ you are making some WILD assumptions about my faith beliefs and are entirely misunderstanding what i’m saying (though if i’m reading between the lines our stances on evidence might be more similar than you think). you are misunderstanding how academic study works. secular study doesn’t mean that you make claims with the underlying assumption religion isn’t true. it’s that claims you make do not require a assumption about religion. it’s the difference between “we shouldn’t expect JFS to be anything but a man his time” vs “JFS held views that were consistent with others from the time period” but leaving the question of “why” we should or should expect JFS not be a man up to the reading based on their beliefs in prophets. the first way of answering the question often gives a pass to religion, and are the same types of claims apologists will often make (when convenient) since it appears to be a secular statement (it’s not). in contrast, stating that JFS had views that were consistent with his time is a much more neutral, historical fact. i would never call matt an apologist, but this nuance in language may have contributed to why some listeners interpreted some of his statements as apologist leaning.
@loriherbst7043Ай бұрын
Dr. Harris has a best selling book, gets free advertising on Mormon Stories AND was paid so much you can’t afford your production? Not a good look, Dr. Harris. Pony up.
@HugsViewАй бұрын
On the Family Search homepage- they portray an inter racial family - a lighter black woman, the mothers parents/relatives, and her white husband, their children. I see it every time i log on.
@lj9524Ай бұрын
Inter faith marriages were considered sinful ( catholic church big issue). SAD
@traviswarner1500Ай бұрын
How is your relationship summer rain with your husband? Hope that’s OK to ask.
@clcole5655Ай бұрын
Thanks!
@traviswarner1500Ай бұрын
How is your relationship summer rain with your husband? Hope that’s OK to ask.