Mother Forkin' Morals with Dr. Todd May - Part 3: Psychological Egoism - The Good Place (Exclusive)

In the third installment of Mother Forkin' Morals, resident philosophy advisor Dr. Todd May talks about Eleanor's (Kristen Bell) roots as a psychological egoist and how her philosophy has developed over the course of the show.
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NBC’s The Good Place follows Eleanor Shellstrop, Chidi Anagonye, Tahani Al-Jamil, and Jason Mendoza as they seek redemption in the afterlife, aided by Good Place Architect, Michael, and a human-esque repository for all of the knowledge in the universe, Janet.
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ABOUT THE GOOD PLACE
From creator Michael Schur (“Brooklyn Nine-Nine,” “Parks and Recreation” and “Master of None”) comes a unique comedy about what makes a good person. The show follows Eleanor Shellstrop (Kristen Bell, “House of Lies,” “Veronica Mars”), an ordinary woman who enters the afterlife, and thanks to some kind of error, is sent to the Good Place instead of the Bad Place (which is definitely where she belongs). While hiding in plain sight from Good Place Architect Michael (Ted Danson - “Cheers,” “CSI” - in an Emmy Award-nominated performance), she’s determined to shed her old way of living and earn her spot.
Mother Forkin' Morals with Dr. Todd May - Part 3: Psychological Egoism - The Good Place (Exclusive)
• Mother Forkin' Morals ...
The Good Place
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[@thepudgyninja]

What has this show done to me that I'm happily watching video lectures on moral philosophy?

[@TheAwesome45]

thepudgyninja This is why people hate moral philosophy professors.

[@Yramuol]

I love this show

[@raniaaapsm]

Same here😂

[@MadamEllaMalala]

Chidi! That's what happened! Chidi happened!

[@lamsokawski6964]

Same

[@JohnFrazier]

I really love these explorative sidebars into the philosophy behind the show. Please keep them coming!!

[@Pinkall01]

Agreed! I love understanding the the philosophy that is taught in the show... and I've learnt so much from Dr May and the show.

[@pinkrox154]

Concepts that are so dry on paper explained in such an intriguing way, WITH reference to the characters we all know and love! Simply awesome!! Keep them coming pleaaaasee! And...maybe make them longer....?

[@clare2385]

Check out the KZbin channel Crash Course Philosophy! Edit: The channel is actually called Crash Course only.

[@nosmadaaa8522]

You put the peeps in the chilli pot and add the eminemsss.

[@grainneocruhuir6383]

Robert Adamson you put the peeps in the Chili pot and make it taste baaaaaad.

[@ViolettePoete]

Gotta say, I often asked myself why I was doing good things... Do I do them because they're right or because I hope to gain something by it? And if it's the case, does it cancel the good I do ? Or maybe it doesn't even matter so long as you do good things or try to be good...

[@lumen8341]

you got it right at the end there. :)

[@KenMathis1]

The fundamental flaw in your concern is equating "gaining something" as wrong, or something that could cancel a good act. As long as the gaining something part doesn't involve a bad act, then it's neutral. Good Act + Gaining Something = Good Act Ultimately the amount of good in the world has increased. Thinking about it another way, if everyone did good things while gaining something, the world would be a pretty nice place.

[@campkira]

Lean to do good deed without thinking about it.

[@Yramuol]

Violette Poète it’s an interesting point ... also If we do a good act and in return we get a feeling of personal satisfaction or pride, are we simply doing a good act for a selfish reason? I like to think that when we get something intangible in return like love, friendship, happiness then this encourages us to do more good acts and eventually we find ourselves doing good acts without even thinking.

[@stevenhiggins3055]

This is probably going to make me unpopular and I don't really know where I'm going with this or how it relates but I feel theres something it can add so here I go. I don't like giving gifts. Or rather, I don't like giving gifts simply because it's expected. When I give a gift, I get much more satisfaction from doing it because I want to, not because, say, it's someone's birthday and that's just what you do. At the same time, I sometimes want to get someone a gift just because I see something I know they'd like, but I don't get it at the moment, instead, perhaps ironically, waiting until a special occasion to do so. As for when it comes to reciving gifts, I'd much rather have gift cards or money so I can get what I want myself. I guess I'm just wondering what an example like that says about my own moral philosophy. It's a small gesture but i thing even those can be dictated by your philosophy.

[@azuredesuuu8252]

This damn show made me interested so much in moral philosophy and philosophy in general that I'm seriously considering that this would be my course for college 😂

[@freddylightman]

I ended up taking philosophy and ethics for A-levels after I finished season 2 😂😂

[@campkira]

Good for you. I skipped them. Don't really feel like missed anything. Good thing I have good teacher in life.

[@brettknoss486]

I'd also study rvolutionary psychology and economics.

[@jddmbth1]

Does this guy even blink?

[@TheBlackEternalWings]

maybe he blinks when you do...

[@violetsmith5731]

Joshua fine Nope.

[@Yramuol]

Joshua fine he blinked at 2.38!!

[@masterchanell]

Chidi is egoist he makes the "right" choice because he would feel bad if he didnt. Indeed, he is so obssessed with it that if he doesnt he gets a stomachache. I do the exact same thing.

[@lindseycassella3015]

Me too. Then ruminate about the choice you made.

[@marcie557]

But he doesn’t think that everyone else only do things to pursue for their own interest, unlike Eleanor. But like Tahani, he might exhibit the behavior of the people that Eleanor is thinking about.

[@shallfrisch1]

That's the problem with a naive egoism and conflating the psychological and the normative. Everyone is fundamentally a psychological egoist but may or may not act in a egoist normative method. He only dismisses the navie egoism ethic but never the fleshed out one.

[@zyaicob]

That's not psychological egoism, it's deontology

[@ellielindsey7454]

This reminds of the Friends episode where Pheobe was trying to prove altruism exists, but it doesn't work out so well haha

[@hbluemole6941]

Yeah, she was having the baby of her brother

[@nivaldojunior7327]

Ow, I know! The one in which Phoebe hates PBS. She was trying to find unselfish deed. Helping Joey made her happy so it didn't count as an unselfish deed. Very funny

[@zyaicob]

Yet another Pheobe connection

[@MsLindaluu]

Why wasn't my college philosophy course even half this interesting?

[@uneek35]

I like how this guy describes Chidi as kantian. Heard people say it makes no sense for a moral philosopher to be indecisive, but it works if he's a moral realist who believes every decision can be logically sussed out.

[@masterchanell]

I believe everyone is egoist but not in the same way. My belief is that people do what they want to its pure logic even people that go to Africa to help people they do that because that makes them feel good because its worth to them. i dont think anybody would do something that wouldn t benefit them in some way. Me for example I try to make the morally correct decision because its my choice and I would feel bad If i didnt.

[@sumayaabdi5014]

Same it's called pure altruism I dont believe it exist I believe reciprocal altruism exists though, the act of doing something to get something back in return, it all goes back to that

[@bartman999]

"As a theory of what human beings are like, [psychological egoism] is thin soup" Where are the arguments to support that statement???

[@striving1]

Wow. He broke that down. There are MANY psychological egoist.

[@KickinAss1000]

Well, I hope you dont just conflate psychological egoism with evil people out to exploit for their own gain. All this term really means, is your brain is an algorithm, designed to move towards pleasure and away from pain.. and even though we like to tell ourselves we are altruistic angels.. In reality their was a neurological reward for that behavior.... there are not alot of P.E.s but you are definitely a dork who thinks we are evil and/or greedy. Haha altruism is a tool to help Gene's reproduce it's not a magical thing you will. Freewill is just an illusion.. no scientist or philosopher believes in it(mostly)

[@Thkaal]

Huh....I called it neurochemical addiction. You do good things because you get that hit of endorphines that make you feel good. You do it because of pride. You do it because you want to be a good person. So...yeah, guess I'm a psychological egoist.

[@sumayaabdi5014]

Me too I guess Idrk

[@gilanaashleigh5792]

Whens the next episode or season coming on netflix 😀

[@nmadrid1151]

WOLFIE SSNIPES yes when the fork hè coming😂

[@faith121]

My new favorite saying is " it's thin soup."

[@masterchanell]

I didnt understand what he meant with that can you explain pls?

[@faith121]

diego lopez For me, it refers to the preference that some people have for a thick soup, meaning its heartier and fuller. A thin soup could be referring to soup that is watery, or lacking in anything but liquid making it less satisfying or filling. A similar phrase is “soup sandwich,” but I have no idea where that phrase came from and I only know it means something or someone who is really messed up. Hope this helps!

[@masterchanell]

@@faith121 thank you so much

[@hbluemole6941]

If you liked this please watch the Bojack Horseman episode "The view from Halfway down" were they talk about how good doing good is if it makes you feel good

[@cScottD]

I’m loving this video series!

[@andresalexei6506]

I see the image after the video and when i see “me, myself, and I”, i thought it was this song in my mind “Oh, it's just me, myself and I Solo ride until I die 'Cause I got me for life (Got me for life, yeah) Oh I don't need a hand to hold Even when the night is cold I got that fire in my soul I don't need anything to get me through the night Except the beat that's in my heart Yeah, it's keeping me alive (Keeps me alive) I don't need anything to make me satisfied (You know) 'Cause the music fills me good and it gets me every time” “me, myself and I” (g-eazy and Bebe Rexha) XD 😂

[@Stonefallow]

The key distinction that jumps out to me is that actions based on self-interest and actions based on sympathy come from two different parts of the brain. The self-interested motivation comes from the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for complex planning, decision making, and moderating social behavior. The sympathy/empathy motivation comes from the cerebral cortex, more specifically the supramarginal gyrus. This is the part of your brain that recognizes a lack of empathy and autocorrects. Not surprisingly, people with sociopathic disorders often have a defect in this area of the brain. Yet they are still perfectly capable of making rational self-interest based decisions. In short, humans act for a number of different reasons and they cannot be reduced so easily to something such as "psychological egoism".

[@ebervaliusahau2289]

I felt a disturbing absence of Max Stirner in The Good Place, just sayin'...

[@karlamiller1453]

I love these Mother Forkin' Moral Lessons!!!

[@lydias342]

I love this show. It mentions many complex moral philosophies, but it comes back to the idea that (like Chidi says) “Why do it? Why choose to be good everyday if there’s no guaranteed reward now or in the afterlife? I argue that we chose to be good because of our bonds with other people. And our innate desire to treat them with dignity. Simply put: we are not in this alone.” Obviously, I haven figured out the secrets of the moral universe. But, as an amateur, I recommend that we all try to be good. At least, that’s what I got from the good place. Take it sleazy, everyone.

[@482k7]

I'm a college freshman and my Ethics class included this video (and the Trolley Problem video) in our class content. Safe to say that I am now a big fan of ethics and The Good Place. Thanks, university. I also just started watching this series last week and I was so excited to see Michael Schur as one of the writers on the show. Unfortunately I can't get through this video with being spoiled a little

[@eduardoarmenta9232]

What about doing something good out of inertia? It used to happen to me when I was at highschool. People asked for my help all the time with homeworks and stuff like that and I really didn't wanted to help all of them, but I did it anyway pretty much every time someone asked me and the thing it's that I never felt that I was being a good person even tho I never asked for something in return..... I just helped because I could.

[@jadynd7916]

Pride, respect from others in society, building attraction from opposite sex, potentially you do actually feel good deep down and that's a motivator

[@sumayaabdi5014]

I only do stuff for people to leave me alone or because I can like you

[@zyaicob]

Exactly. Doing something for someone solely because you do not have a satisfactory reason not to. I like that inertia thing. I think it's rooted in a feeling of intrinsic debt to others, which is actually quite strong moral ground to stand on

[@peterrasmussen394]

Interesting! Reminds me of the Danish proverb “Tyv tro hver mand stjæler”. (A thief thinks every man steals)

[@sumayaabdi5014]

Thanks for that proberb

[@luisasanchez2204]

I can't believe I am actually learning something from a sitcom. I love it!

[@freddylightman]

If you could release more of these before the end of January that would be great 😂😂 Rly fun way for a better understanding for mocks 👌

[@rangerwickett]

Tempted to downvote due to the lack of the Oxford comma.

[@Yramuol]

Ryan Z Nock I’ve wondered this too

[@princessanavjunio]

Surprised to see this linked in my class, makes it easier to understand the topic knowing each character, I absolutely loved this show

[@barbara20214]

this is why everybody loves moral philosophy professors

[@nina1608]

This is fun. But not as much as the thing in and of itself...

[@ActiveAdvocate1]

Nah, this is a "trees" thing: I'm a "forest" person. It's also REALLY misanthropic, and I'm a Humanist.

[@peaceoglory]

Yes! Love these little lectures! Keep them coming!

[@arisymphony]

Does thinking that the only reason we do good things is because it makes us feel morally good make me a psychological egoist?

[@bellegraphnole527]

Can you guys make a book on all the ethics you made in the series. Episode by episode

[@katara5083]

OHH so this is what it's called :0 haha i think this might have been what i was believing for quite some time now. But.. huh.. they make a good point about it not being the only basis for human behavior coolcool

[@User24x]

That's not psychological egoism. He's using an different definition of selfish, where to be selfish is to do so "without regard for others," which is not a given

[@teslaspigeon5880]

Is Michael named Michael because the producer's name is Michael?

[@sumayaabdi5014]

He made the office the main character is also called Michael

[@Spike_Monster]

So if the group was stuck being tortured for 300 years wouldn't there be other people who have died? Like I get time was weird but time works differently the bad place which I would assume means it works differently in the in between place and the good place. So when they ask when the last person got into the good place and they say 500 years ( it was 500 right?). Again yes I know time works differently but still wouldn't there be some people form the future? In the good place or something?

[@Annie53A5N]

Michael was the architect for the bad place of only four people. The other humans who have gone to the bad place are in bad places created by other architects.

[@Spike_Monster]

@@Annie53A5N thanks for the explanation!

[@lindseycassella3015]

Yeah I believe everyone else who was in the fake good place were demon actors and time is different there.

[@johnbainivanua2566]

Motherforking shirtballs!!! I watched an entire 4ish minute lecture on moral philosophy 😲😲 This is definitely the bad place...

[@jacquelinecowan3148]

And I just submitted an english paper on psychological egoism... this would have saved me quite a bit of research for understanding the theory!

[@natashanolan2797]

i forking love this little series

[@rowena5835]

why are the subtitles a bit delayed it might just be me but

[@marinafreidhof8514]

That was brilliant

[@hellojari07]

good stuff

[@hello_iam_potato]

I'm sorry, but can anyone please explain what 'thin soup' means in this case? I kinda assume by the context that it means "psychological egoism ain't that deep/worthy when it comes to a theory of what human beings are like." But I don't know. I never had thin soup in my life. I'm sure I won't like it though.

[@lj5854]

A sitcom is making you watch a lecture on philosophy... Forking shirtballs lol

[@vishbhai6607]

Todd you blinked! Now you’re gonna have to redo the whole video!

[@nekolord5675]

Why is it thin soup?

[@DoesThisMatter]

Hmm. I would have liked him to go into this one more. Because I feel like egoism is one of those falsifiable things.

[@Alex-cu2in]

I thought the whole time The Good Place was a Netflix original series

[@amythelibrarian4921]

In which my MIL is partially explained....

[@giftbox-e]

Ooookay, I had this question for YEARSSSSS and I still have this question even after watching this show and this one. So, even though people act based on "Sympathetic" reaction towards something can be called Not Self-interest, But the fact that doing that sympathetic act just to remove that sympathetic feeling that you feel is for your own ego??

[@zyaicob]

The drive reduction theory applied to moral reasoning? Cool

[@lofidog3245]

The first few seconds are my favourite part of the video.

[@ramankurdish7576]

My favourite TV show💜

[@eddiecollins7665]

I'm like, so confused by your theory and analysis. So I'm gonna say you're overthinking and wrong.

[@sumayaabdi5014]

So you dont understand so you assume there wrong wtf lol

[@bhangela]

please continue with these explanations!!!

[@damatically]

I have exam on ethics later so im watchig this lmao

[@anafernandes7736]

Man....You're good Todd...you're good..

[@talytasbarcelos]

I'm psycological egoistic

[@user-ky7mf2kp2v]

Everyone hates philosophers

[@brettknoss486]

This is a start, but the key is this, people who have the best combination of self interest and nurturing pass on their grnes to their off spring, while society that function the most efficiently allow gor the greatest growth of population, through reproduction and immigration. An important aspect of this is kin selection, whereby those with the right amount of sltruidm allow their kin to survive, and thus propagate, spreading genes of the common ancestors that allowed for altruism. Ie. When a person dies to save their brother's life, 25% of there genes pass on to their nephew, this allows for what Richard Dawkins called the 'selfish gene' to spread altruism. Another explanation is group selection. Konrad Lorenz and Niko Timbergen argued that groups can act in ways that lead to the secess of the group leading to survival of the species and lower groups. While this does not explain all animal evolution as well as kin selection, it may have merit in human society, and higher mammals. As E.O. Wilson argues, a group of altruistic individuals beats a group of selfush individuals. The final aspect then is selfishness and altruism binary or is that a false dilemma. Economics is based on the idea of mutually beneficial exchange, this can then allow for the kind of multi level evolution that E.O. Wison argued in favor of. This means that altruism would exist as rb(k) +b(e) < c or benefit to kin plus benefit to group is greater than cost. Getting back to economics, if knowledge is dispersed then a society where all levels can act in ways that maximize utility for all by individuals and firms specializing in areas of comparative advantage, will create a society that is stronger than one with a monolithic central authority that leads yo subservience to murderous tyrants (Hitler, Mao), or a lack of rule of law that leads to self untrest at the cost of co-operation. Even democracy can be diverted by aelf interested groups, at the exprnse of the public good, look up Public Choice Economics.

[@sumayaabdi5014]

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/is-pure-altruism-possible/ nice

[@brettknoss486]

@@sumayaabdi5014 this doesn't explain why people do what they do at all. It also presumes that self interest and altruism is only about motives, not considering emotions or heuristics. Nor does it consider tgat altruism can harmful. Is there any reason why the same altruism that motivated the hypothetical aids doctor, could not also motivate Mother Theresa or Joseph Mengele.

[@brettknoss486]

@@sumayaabdi5014 kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYO8lIarrrGcgM0

[@sumayaabdi5014]

@@brettknoss486 I just said nice and linked something you could read I didnt even disagree I just wanted you too see the link

[@sumayaabdi5014]

@@brettknoss486 thx for the link

[@ebervaliusahau2289]

This expostition sounds more like rational egoism. Psychological egoism, I believe, is something more subconscious. The parent example makes them sound too calculistic. I think psychological egoist parents would raise their kids driven not necessarily only by concrete advantages, but also by a sense of subjective fulfillment, which is egoistic as well, but more subtle.

[@jadynd7916]

I think it is evolution and the integral need to pass one ones genes that motivates people to have kids, not so much the fulfillment. I think parenthood is one of the things outside of egoism.

[@ebervaliusahau2289]

But wouldn't the hardwired necessity of passing on our genes be also egoistic? A manifestation of a conatus or will to power?

[@alexanderarnold4810]

There is a secret writer's strike?

[@moridain]

I have been a psychological egoist at times. But yeah, if that were the truth of things humanity wouldn't have survived this long. It is through sympathy with those around us that we work together in a meaningful way, and flourish.

[@kalil2669]

The thing is that every action we take is selfish in a way. Everytime when we do something is because: it will make us feel good, or it we will avoid feeling bad. We do a lot of things so we won't be judged by society.

[@campkira]

@@kalil2669 Yet that bad feeling make you a better people. Many thing terrible thing, I did or be done to make me a better person.

[@kalil2669]

campkira Sure. But that feeling exists because someone told you that certain things are bad. At the same time people that do bad stuff are generally judged. We don't like to feel judged. We were also told that certain things are good and when we do them we are better as a person.Even when we do stuff that are harmful to ourselves, we do it because they are generally seen as good actions. Take the example of someone that risk his own life to save another person. He will do it either because: a) they know that person or b) they thing is the right thing to do. They generally think it is the right thing because either society or their conscience tell them it's the right thing.

[@kavish2307]

how can someone spend their lifetime on this! what a waste.

[@mar1na1993]

These videos are great when it comes to analyzing the behavior of my crazy ex moral philosopher boyfriend 🙌🏻🤣

[@jon66097]

I definitely describe myself as a psychological egoist, as in I do good things because it releases happy chemicals in my brain. People usually mean egoist differently, like doing it for financial benefit or something like that, but for me I define it as simply fulfilling my own emotional satisfaction. If I didn't do it, I would feel guilty and emotionally tortured all the time. One example I can think of is Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist. He is the literal embodiment of greed. And as the embodiment, he sees his friends as something he cannot lose, so he risks his own life to protect and satisfy them.