Motor Age How2 #5 - Using The CMP/CKP Signals To Check Timing

Dealing with a drivability concern you suspect is caused by an out-of-time condition? You can use the relationship between the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor to see if the two are in synch - as long as you follow a few precautions. That's the topic for this episode of How2!
Here are links to some of the online resources Pete referenced:
iATN (International Automotive Technicians Network)
www.iatn.net
Pico Technology:
www.picoauto.com
Autonerdz:
www.autonerdz.com
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[@davidhall3747]

The Guided Component Test inside the Snap-on Verus Pro has known good wave forms integrated in the Scan Tool software. It shows the wave forms for Cam and Crankshaft sensors for all Makes and Models. It's a very powerful scan tool for the professional technician.

[@ManicMechanic82]

I've been a master tech for 15 years and I've seen a lot of instructional videos over the years but I just have to say that I think Motor Age is definitely one of the BEST! This information is very nicely set up and explained! VERY ENJOYABLE TO WATCH AND EXTREMELY INFORMATIVE!!!

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Appreciate the kind words. Thank you!

[@davidhall3747]

The Snap- On Verus Pro Scope automatically adjust the Time and Voltage rates for the Technician. This feature is part of the Guided Component Test. No advanced scope skills required for the Snap- on Verus Pro Oscilloscope.

[@mike-yp1uk]

Bernie did a video about an ignition coil internal short. This video exhibits the same spikes as these in perfect time with the cam and crank signals. He amp clamped and the ringing was horrible. Thanks pete

[@billyr9840]

Pete, great presentation, would love see more of this on crank/cam correlation. I noticed in your waveform at 2:17 minutes into the vid that if you compare the Cam pulse to 720 degrees of Crank pulse, from synch notch to synch notch, you see the Cam has a very distinct pattern ( 2-1-3-1-1-2-3-2 ) which then repeats itself over and over starting just after the crank synch notch. I know on some GM vehicles, the GM factory manual will give you very specific parameters on how far the Cam pulse can be ( in degrees ) beyond the Crank synch notch window, that the PCM will tolerate, before the PCM will set a P0017 DTC ( Crank/Cam Correlation Code ). By measuring between the synch window and the cam pulse and comparing it to the given specifications, you can determine if there is any timing issues. The closer to the specification ( in degrees ) the more worn the timing components are, such as chains/sprockets etc. . All this can be done in minutes without taking anything apart on the vehicle and even without a known good waveform ! By the way love the Pico, It can be a very powerful tool ! Take Care !

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Great tips and information Billy - thanks for taking the time to share. More and more, the OEMs are embracing the use of the scope in their own diagnostic information.

[@ManicMechanic82]

Billy R THANKS FOR SHARING!!! GREAT TIME SAVING TIP!!!

[@webslinger2011]

Recently got the hantek 1008A. Still fiddling with it. Looking forward to watching scope vids!

[@henryrobinson9837]

me too he good with the basics

[@lloyd-qt1mg]

Hi Pete, You really do explain electrical issues very clearly...thanks for that gift you are sharing with us! I've just bought a 'lemon' of a V6 2003 Cherokee ( in Australia & Liberty in USA), with 125,000 miles on the clock. It's thrown up the 'Check Engine Light" on the dash. I used my UL319 OBD II Code reader which has spewed out following DTCs: (i) P1391 - $10 Generic - Camshaft Position Sensor . A circuit Bank1 or Singl (ii) P0340 - $10, Pending, Chrysler, Interim loss of CMP or CKP. As a DIY 'ignoramus', with a multimeter as my 'only' other diagnostic tool, I'm floundering all over the 'Net' for help, ... as I'm in a panic that 'Big Dollars' might be the only solution to turning this 'lemon' into a sweet orange! All paths are pointing to these troublesome possibilities: (a) Cam & Crank out of sync. because of Timing Chain elongation ( I learnt this word from your Video) (c) Sensors have self-destructed. (d) Fault in the wiring harness. (e) The notched disc that generates the 'Hall effect' wave patterns has broken in the engine. Possible action going forward: (i) Check Power, Ground, and Signal at each Sensor, for 'A" OK - before running out and buying replacements. If you can offer any advice towards making my ' sweet orange' appear, I'll be most grateful! Perhaps you can send me a link or two that 'homes' into my 'dilemma'. Thanks again for your super instructional video series. Best regards, Lloyd. Queensland, Australia.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Failure of the CMP is common and considering that the intermittent code is also stored leads me to think the sensor is bad. Could be a problem in the harness but not as likely. If you have a scope, you can backprobe the sensor wires and check power, ground and signal - all at the same time. Considering the history of the model in general, though, I'd be comfortable replacing the CMP.

[@lloyd-qt1mg]

​@@MotorAgeMagazine Hi Pete, Thanks for the sound advice. I have taken your advice and replaced both the Cam And Crank sensors. I'm delighted to report that my Jeep fired up first time and the 'Check Engine Light' has not returned. Once again thank you for your interest and sound advice. Lloyd. Queensland, Australia.

[@lloyd-qt1mg]

@@MotorAgeMagazine Hi Pete, Thanks for the sound advice. I have taken your advice and replaced both the Cam And Crank sensors. I'm delighted to report that my Jeep fired up first time and the 'Check Engine Light' has not returned. Once again thank you for your interest and sound advice. Lloyd. Queensland, Australia.

[@nickayivor8432]

Good Afternoon Pete Meier motor age Take care and have a great day 👍 Tutorial great thanks 👍 From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

[@MaicSalazarDiagnostics]

Great videos Pete! Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge. Since you'r been on this for long it might be a good idea to create a library of known good waveforms for your subscribers. As you mentioned that is probably the hardest to find.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Interesting idea! If only I still had them all. However, as we progress thru this series I think you'll learn new ways to use the scope that don't require a library of "known good". :-)

[@magid5441]

thanks million times for every single educational video you great

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Thank you for commenting!

[@jeffhesse8415]

Nice job Pete. Thanks for helping us learn while you're learning too.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Hope to have some one-on-ones with experts to add to this series soon! Thanks for the comment.

[@jeffhesse8415]

Motor Age . Your welcome.The one on one sounds like a good idea.

[@manuellamas4747]

Great video . Very detailed. 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[@leomcalla29]

Great job, I've always looked forward for your videos. Always informative and simplified, can't thank you enough.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Glad you find them helpful. Thanks for commenting!

[@tecnaman9097]

Enjoying your series Pete. The Pico makes my Vantage Pro look a bit last century I gotta say. Love to own one of those Picos but a bit hard to justify to the chief financial officer now i'm retired.lol

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Any scope is better than no scope! And the Vantage Pro is an excellent tool!

[@shameelali2549]

Agreed,I do still use the vantage on mobile situations,but when I have can or ignition issues I always use the pico,as said a scope is better than none.

[@tgoodm1]

Hi Pete! On a V6 car with 2 camshaft sensors (1 per bank), what is the approach? Am I supposed to get the same patterns when overlapping Bank 1 camshaft with single crankshaft and overlapping Bank 2 camshaft with single crankshaft? I hope I made myself clear. Thanks!!!

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

I would treat each bank as an individual engine - that is, look at Bank 1 CMP and CKP, then Bank 2 CMP and CKP. You still need a "known good" for comparison though. Better, I think, is to use an in-cylinder pressure sensor so you can "see" when the valves open. Consider the confusion if you rely on the CMP/CKP synch and all you have a problem with is the Variable Valve Timing system. And if ignition timing is your concern, I have an answer for that one in next week's video!

[@fieldsofomagh]

Doing a great job explaining.Thanks for the info.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Thanks for taking the time to share your comments!

[@subpargolfer6654]

I’m really enjoying your content! You mentioned that you were going to go over what you considered an easier way to determine the timing in a future video. Did you ever make that one? I can’t seem to find it and would love to know more about that. If not I would like to respectfully request that topic for the future or maybe a quick explanation of that process. Thank you for sharing your skills and knowledge.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Daniel - you're right, it's been a while since I've shown this technique. The first step is to perform a relative compression test (kzbin.info/www/bejne/jn-kf4CPdpiJjJo) then add a second channel using any of your ignition signals (secondary or primary ignition). Use that ignition signal as your reference - it should intersect the relative compression peak for its cylinder right about dead center if timing is correct. You can do the same even more accurately using a pressure transducer in the cylinder instead of the relative compression test. Does this answer your question?

[@subpargolfer6654]

@@MotorAgeMagazine I was actually wondering if you were talking about checking the crank/cam correlation with an easier method. Thank you for the link and info, I watched your old scope video about in cylinder compression tests and how you can see valve timing there, but I just thought your comment in this video may have meant you had an easier way to check valve timing. P.S. If you’re taking requests I’d love to see more about checking valve timing with a scope or an updated in cylinder compression video with one of the more modern scopes. You’re videos and content are fantastic, I’ve learned ton from you. Great job!

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

@@subpargolfer6654 Request noted! I’ll get it on the production schedule.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

@@subpargolfer6654 The best way, in my opinion, to check cam/crank correlation and VVT operation is by performing an in-cylinder pressure test. You can "see" the timing change as you operate the VVT solenoids.

[@subpargolfer6654]

@@MotorAgeMagazine Sounds good. Thank you for the reply!

[@trublue2319]

I use the snap on scope I need a good reference to compare my signals but still not a pro with scope. Nobody else at the shop uses the scope

[@romanjaspe4172]

Thanks so much

[@johnmckamy6398]

Another excellent video , thank you

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Thanks for taking the time to comment John!

[@artbeach1958]

Great video! Thanks! I just purchased the Autel maxsys pro, would like to see a video on the Autel scope.

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Thanks Art! Unfortunately, I can't show every scope made in this series. However, as you'll see in upcoming videos, when using any scope the concepts of basic settings are the same. That's why I'm focused on helping you get a single screen capture you can use for diagnostics. Once you have a solid foundation, you can explore the features unique to your own scope. Hope this helps!

[@autonerdz]

Art.. The Autel scope is a Chinese clone. But they are not very good at cloning and it is virtually useless compared to the real PicoScope.

[@arnulfoprado7719]

thank you for the great content!

[@MotorAgeMagazine]

Glad you like it.

[@stevenmchenry9276]

Great job

[@wannaPreG]

The way a lot of master tech handle this issue, cam and crank, I think they really need to take the explanation very down from the beginning because most of them teach as if we the viewers re expert already when it come to cam and crank,

[@hugolopezhernandez642]

Didn't help too much bla bla bla