Mounting and Sealing Exposed Watercolors

You've been asking me so here it is, the answer to how I mount, seal and even store my watercolors when they are not framed behind glass.
The video demo of this painting - • Painting a Rocky Water...
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[@markanderson4447]

When brushing on the gel clearcoat, it is a good idea to make vertical brush strokes to smooth the last strokes out. Most picture lighting comes from above and you won't see shadows on the surface like you do when the clearcoat is applied horizontally.

[@rogerboucher1913]

What if you put one coat vertically and the second one horizontally, would that make it look like canvas?

[@mariedunn3774]

Excellent tip, thanks!

[@kertzb9402]

Which gel are you using? Golden what?

[@c.l.montoya2972]

@@kertzb9402 Golden UV acrylic top coat He lists all his products in the description😊

[@ospreys_view4798]

This video was extraordinarily helpful. It answered all my questions on how to mount watercolor without glass. Thank you so much for all the work you put into these videos.

[@ivanadamiengeorgelimiteded3639]

To prevent support induced discoloration, I have read on Golden's website that 2 coats of gloss medium should be applied to the wood before mounting a watercolor on it.

[@LaineyBug2020]

Oooh, that transition when the gel medium dried was so satisfying to see!

[@sylviaholtzhausen6439]

I find using a sponge roller gives a nice brushstroke free finish. 😊

[@earthheavenisa]

Really appreciate the detailed explanation., especially the cropping and edge trimming 🙏

[@gaylecewpie5012]

Thank you soooo much Steve for showing us how to mount a Watercolor Painting on a Cradle Board, its absolutely gorgeous!!! I love it and hope to do some of these.❤🤗

[@francinetjones1814]

Put blue painter tape on edges of cradled panel before you start,; works great clean edges!

[@stephenpirie8900]

I knew KZbin would have what I was looking for and you had the answer, with an explanation that was easy to follow. Thank you. Now, I'm inspired to paint my very first watercolor.

[@Captain_MonsterFart]

I use the wax. Gamblin wax. But it's a bit delicate and once I created a shiny spot with my fingernail. But otherwise you can't tell it's there at all, there is no light reflection and it doesn't change the look of the painting at all. I saw someone use playing cards to evenly space the wood panel inside the frame. She added an equal number of cards on all sides till no more would fit.

[@lindalyles3954]

This is such a clear to understand video. Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate.

[@sallywright5503]

Very informative. I have read about how to do this, however, for me their is nothing like seeing it done by someone to clarify the process. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[@jennifersim4401]

Thanks so much for the great lesson.. you are a very good communicator.

[@kasencaleb3286]

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[@royceeliseo3695]

@Kasen Caleb Instablaster =)

[@kasencaleb3286]

@Royce Eliseo I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out atm. I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.

[@kasencaleb3286]

@Royce Eliseo it worked and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy:D Thanks so much, you saved my ass :D

[@ArtistWizardry]

Dorlands wax seemed to have removed the glitter effect on an Amethyst Primatek swatch I made. Just something to note and good idea to test before using on a finished piece with special effect kinds of paints.

[@cdorothy444]

The gold watercolor of my kuratake set got diminished but it turned to a soft, more subtle sparkling effect, which is nice.

[@MelanCholy2001]

*I have that!* The Dorlands! I stupidly used the amethyst on a painting and it was nice, but I needed to glaze over the rocks because of shadow, and ...it doesn't do that! (User error, I know). I'm so glad I looked in the comments. Those rocks are "background" of a painting I worked a long time on (I don't heat dry), and ...let's just say, I'm hitting those purple rocks with the wax! Thank you! 🙏😇 (The primateks are lovely, but I've decided I'm going to use them very judiciously now. It's not the paint's fault.) And I can get wax off that watercolor. The rocks aren't even that big, so YAY!

[@karenannc]

The glitter of some of the Primatek paints seems to disappear under glass as well, I noticed.

[@jenniefrench1338]

I use the heavy gloss acrylic medium to block the acid from the wood. Plywood works, MDF, specific wall boxes about anything. I use the UV archival matte or satin too then after dry I wax with Dorland's wax with a clean rag so no brush marks. I also varnish the inside decorative pages to the wc books I make. But before that I use Golden heavy gel medium underneath the painting with a sponge brush. The Modge Podge wouldn't be a heavy enough barrier for the acid. But hey art looks great! and doing large split paintings an inch or 2 apart is awesome and very attractive. Nice. This process for me has worked at least a dozen times. Having a brayer helps the painting stick well without rewetting the pigment. Optical paintings are really a thing now.🤗

[@mindofwatercolor]

Thanks for the input. I’m using acid free gallery cradles so on this one at least sealing the wood isn’t necessary.

[@jentai7536]

Can you explain in more detail about your process for wc books? I am creating one and want to know how you preserve the wc?

[@allanpennington]

@@mindofwatercolor Is the timber in the cradle treated or sealed already if its a 'gallery' one?

[@malaramaart4947]

Hello...do you think this process can be used for a humid climate? I live in Seychelles..

[@jaredtreanor8499]

@@malaramaart4947 You should have no problems with this process in a humid climate, but your dry times will certainly be longer in between coats.

[@francinetjones1814]

Dorlands wax medium on the edges is nice too

[@wulfseig1864]

I've been meaning to watch this video for a bit. So happy ĺ finally did. The painting looks so beautiful in the frame. It really took on a whole other life. Just gorgeous. Saving this video for reference. Thanks, Steve, for another useful video. 🙂

[@viviandibrell849]

I love this method although I have use the wax instead on the final coat. One thing I might add is that if you have a little bit of unevenness after you trim off the paper, you can use a nail file to smooth out the edge of the paper. I really like your float frame and will try that! Thank you!

[@bh69videa]

I think wax gives better results, more natural, more matt. Acrylic is too glossy and "plastic", character of watercolor is loosed.

[@michelletulumello661]

What kind of wax do you use?

[@viviandibrell849]

@@michelletulumello661 Dorlands beeswax.

[@danacherlin1863]

I was wondering if I could use the wax and then use the uv protective spray on top? Is that the wrong order? I just read that the wax can be a bit sticky so I thought if I spray on top of it it'll seal it better?

[@viviandibrell849]

@@danacherlin1863 wax is not really sticky if you buff it well. I would use the uv under the wax.

[@rachelstewart1809]

Great, clear demo . Thank you, Steve. Collage was my process for years prior to exploring watercolor, so I have used every conceivable medium made my Golden and Liquitex. In my experimentation I discovered that Liquitex Pouring Medium works well directly on watercolor. It gives an almost glass like result and requires no brush, so, no brush strokes. Might not be a look for everything, but it's fun. There is no color change, and a fixative isn't necessary. I'd recommend Golden semigloss gel for the best mounting medium as it is not as climate sensitive as modge podge. ✨🖌️✨

[@mindofwatercolor]

Thanks! Great tips.

[@jackharrison7613]

I tried the Semi-gloss UV topcoat, and found the brush strokes and colour changes (lightened) really diminished the painting. Your post about the pouring medium is intriguing. Have you used it on watercolour painting (ie no other media involved)?

[@vaughnemett4545]

Just watched this video for the third time, Steve. I'm working on a "mini triptych" of a scene at Lake Powell. Each of the three panels will be mounted on a solid block of wood, (these are very small panels only 4x6) and then those will be mounted in a cradle, something like the one you used here. This project is a study for a full-sheet sized triptych, each with a separate panel.

[@mindofwatercolor]

Oh awesome! Sounds amazing.

[@samanthareimerart4627]

Excellent video. Your tip about using the pre-cut mat for measuring was very cool and thank you for taking the time to explain how to choose the right blade and cutting the edges.

[@dubbjb]

Excellent. Art looks so much better when it isn’t behind glass

[@MelanCholy2001]

Yes, I'm new to wc but have done oil years ago (couldn't hack oil medically so gave up except Prismacolor pencil stuff). I sorta want the paintings _not_ behind glass. So I love these methods!

[@jillmorris2849]

Thank you from Roswell, GA! I have done this a long time ago and forgot my process. Thank you. I will send you a photo when finished.

[@Hawise1]

I love this, Steve!! I didn't know anything about the cradles or protection for watercolours outside of using glass!!! This blows me away. I will try this out for sure. BTW your painting is gorgeous as usual. Thank you for doing this video for us!

[@rebeccawong1]

I love that you handled things so methodically, you showed a lot of love towards your work 🥰

[@carolyn_r]

That's wonderful. I didn't realize watercolors can be mounted.

[@shirleyclanton2730]

I’m new to watercolor, your paper looks and sounds really thick, I don’t think I have ever seen such thick watercolor paper. Thank you.

[@LanieCr]

I am guessing he is using 300lb paper

[@lizstrangesavage7948]

Enjoyed seeing your process!

[@jcsallen3]

Very informative and excellent, clear directions. Your voice is easy to understand as well!!! Thank you!!!

[@Positive_Pepper]

Thank you so so so much for your detailed video! It’s saving my life right now on a commission I’m doing. You’re the best. It’s videos like these that make me thankful for KZbin 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻

[@boubella11]

Thanks, Steve. Ive been mounting some paintings like this for quite some time but I love the tip about using those precut mats to get it centered just right! Thanks!

[@carolratcliff]

Just a tip: I use masking tape to protect the wood edges of the cradle board. ☺️ thanks for the product tips.

[@pennycandyys]

Remember anything made out of wood pulp has lignin and is therefore acidic. Masking should not be in contact with a watercolour (photo, or what have you) over time, or it will burn it.

[@pennycandyys]

*There are archival tapes available, at least in the framing industry.

[@carolratcliff]

Yes. I just meant to cover it temporarily while attaching the watercolor to the board. Then that masking tape is removed.

[@pennycandyys]

@@carolratcliff 👍 I expected so, but wasn't sure :)

[@Babyjohn8170]

Thank you😊👍

[@user-qg6fm6gk4y]

Spraying fixatives, laying and polishing with the gel are somethings I am interested and to do so It is available here but your guidance give us productive ways .Thanks from Singapore .

[@danag812]

Thank you for this informative video. I'm thinking that if someone wants to paint the edges of the cradle it might be good to make that your first step. I.e. do it BEFORE you mount the watercolour. Imagine if you go through the whole process and then flub it up by getting paint from the edge painting portion on it! :( I think if you paint the panel FIRST (maybe all over with white or black gesso or whatever acrylic paint you want) it will be easier and your work will be safer :)

[@jennw6809]

I agree, and also I think it's good to prime the board with gesso because there's a danger of the wood eventually staining the paper without a barrier.

[@danag812]

@@jennw6809 good idea also

[@annettefournier9655]

Ooohhh. So that's how a floater frame works! I like mounting my artwork on these panels. I use matte gel medium to mount to the board and then the wax on the painting. Thanks Steve.👍

[@annewatman677]

This is wonderful. The one thing that has been giving me pause when it comes to watercolor is framing. Glass frames can be expensive, so I have preferred acrylics when I wanted to create something for display.

[@s.k.3483]

Steve, I can never thank you enough for sharing your knowledge, ideas, wisdom, talent, inspiration, and sense of humor. You have truly been a guiding light to me and obviously so many others. This was really helpful to me as I am a beginning painter and just now getting to the point where I may want to hang something, so this was super helpful. Do you know if you can frame pastel paintings using the same method?

[@glutenfreeappletree]

I've used the hake brush and the brush strokes are virtually invisible. (Hake brush is a wash brush on a long, flat, wood handle. Useful for laying in smooth, even washes of paint (or water), hake brushes are also a popular choice for applying gesso, paste, varnish, or pottery glazes. Artists also use hake brushes for wetting surfaces and for absorbing excess water or paints. Hake brushes are generally made from high-quality GOAT hair, but may also be made from SHEEP hair.)

[@jackharrison7613]

Sheep hair?

[@jennw6809]

I love hake brushes! I didn't know they could be made from sheep hair at times. I also have a 1" flat squirrel brush which is extremely soft and fluffy and would be good to apply a varnish. I got it from Rosemary & Co.

[@jackharrison7613]

@@jennw6809 agree. I've had a Hake brush for years, and rarely used it. It does a nice smooth stroke, as GFAT writes, for the top coat.

[@lisap5615]

Love this video about mounting watercolor paintings. I think it turned out beautifully. Thank you for sharing your method.

[@dawnabbott3783]

The float frame is so cool! Had not heard of them until seeing this awesome video.

[@jdschneider5858]

Thank you! I've seen another method which was very complicated. This method is wonderful!

[@janetbuckingham8576]

Thank you SO much! I have tried Dorland's a couple of times and am looking forward to trying this out. Plus, bonus, I have everything on hand!

[@brentboyer79]

I agree, the brush stroke in the finish gives it an old, or vintage, look to it.

[@mskhartwatercolourwithmisu8598]

That is a great way to mount the watercolor works. It's beautiful and so professional. I had a hard time taking care of glass frames when I go to the shows because each show experiences leaves scratch makes on the frames. This will help a lot. I paint watercolor on rice paper too. It will be challenging but I am going to try it with rice paper works too. Thank you for sharing this video.

[@MaryChrapliwy]

Wow, thanks for showing this step-by-step. I'm an oil painter now experimenting with watercolor and gouache and this is great information. Thanks

[@pattycyr8662]

This is very helpful - something I had been wondering about. I appreciate you explaining it so well and getting the camera in close. Great video!

[@HSkyler]

This is timely. I was just wondering how to mount watercolor paintings and your video shows up! I would prime and paint the cradled boards first, and then tape the painted sides until the mounting process is finished. I've prepared cradled boards in this fashion for encaustic paintings. Thank you!!

[@lindaalflen9025]

Awesome!! I've mounted watercolors on boards before, but putting it in a float frame is brilliant!! Thank you!!

[@carolhestand2561]

Thank you, That was very interesting. Did not know you could do that, always believed watercolors had to under glass.

[@mindofwatercolor]

Traditionally yes, that is the case. This has been a more recent trend.

[@nancyfriedman503]

Wonderful to watch your mounting for watercolor, but can this be done with pastels?

[@soniamoore9776]

I didn’t know how to seal and preserve watercolours, this is fab and I love this framing method. Thank you

[@valeriegehling4358]

Thanks. Hope to mount some of my paintings similarly. Hoping it’ll be more cost effective, as frames are cost. Thanks

[@felicitycrowe6971]

That looks fantastic! I had a thought about avoiding the final brushstrokes - if you used something like a spatula or one of those “brushes” with a piece of flat silicone instead of the hairs that you can now buy, you can probably minimise the appearance of the brush strokes. Just a thought. Thank you so much for another informative video - I love your channel!😊

[@artwilwarin7483]

I just got an order for a in mail delivery of a pet portrait instead of scanned and I was so lost. Thank you so much for this!

[@Horsewoman-pt2ku]

I really liked that painting when you did it. Glad to see it will be displayed.

[@garzapinups]

I’m super happy to have come across your video! I paint in watercolors and I always wondered if there was a way to protect them like oils or acrylics. Thank you!

[@catherinevangass4927]

Love the look of the floating frame with this technique!

[@kmorgan6890]

Wonderful video, thank you...I did a similar one in the past few days on a 1.5 inch deep cradle....used the wax as a finish.... Love that they can also sit on a shelf, dresser, etc as we run out of wall space.

[@zychios0078]

Thank you for this video ❤

[@elizabethbergan9989]

Thank you Steve for this demonstration which answered the questions about how to use the product. I'm also interested in the sleeve protection for storage.

[@billtunis8120]

Glad to see you are back. Hope your wife is well. Good demo.

[@paulinedavis3660]

Fantastic. Thank you, great information on this framing tutorial, I adore this painting....

[@ruthbarker5572]

Thank you Steve for this teaching. I love the effect and will try this !! I really enjoy your lessons !!

[@pamsims3436]

Thank you for that demonstration. I like the floating frame. I have never seen those sold anywhere. Great video, Steve.

[@Rebemondo]

Thanks for the demo. I've never mounted my watercolors but I'm willing to try your method. Love the finished piece!

[@awenda598]

This is great. You could probably paint the sides with acrylic to match the picture, no? Thanks for the lesson. I always wonder how people mount the pictures or ship them but most never show how they do any of it. Thanks 🤩.

[@karenturner-cf7vq]

It's a nice picture. And I have learnt how to seal a watercolour. Thankyou

[@YooperGranny]

Thank you Steve. Amazing amount of information and wonderful demonstration!

[@LanieCr]

Thank you for a perfect demo. I am going to try this.

[@stampinturtles]

I love this video! So easy to follow. Lots of info! I like the floating frame too. Really nice. I have an art show tomorrow but might do a few just to show to customers. Then add a fee to do it.

[@irisgraeber2684]

Thanks, this was very helpful. I love how your painting turned out.

[@micheleblackburn2345]

Looks awesome so beautifully done

[@daruleos]

All of this seems pretty intimidating for me so thank you so much for breaking it down! The cutting of the paper i find specially daunting but you did it with such ease and calm!

[@andrasolivier7185]

Very nice idea! I like it a lot. The texture ads to the painting a nice and original (uniqe) feeling. I have a bit problem with the gloss finish because of light highlited on it blocking the original paint in some angles of viewing. And maybe the top seems a little bit "cut off" but the frame solves that somehow. Anyway, great idea and thanks a lot for sharing!

[@maryanharrell5642]

Thanks, Steve! This was a great help. I have two projects that I needed this information for, right now! Always, timely. Thanks.

[@ChrisC-ws5od]

Wow! Gorgeous. And that floating frame! 😻

[@chantalnugues-perrin3631]

That looks fantastic !!! Your watercolor is set at it’s best 👍💕💕

[@purity2706]

Great video, Steve!! I've watched it twice now!! I have some recent watercolors done on black Stonehenge watercolor paper with torn edges and the results really call for something a bit different than the typical mat and frame!

[@edzejandehaan9265]

Very interesting, also on time, as I after having started working in WC for about a year, paintings are accumulating...At the moment kept loose in drawers, not ideal. I have been reading about Dorland wax as a sealant for watercolor. Supposed to be archival, and making WC painting water fast. Though it sounds attractive, easy to use, cheap, no need for glass, I am a bit apprehensive about it. Varnish/fixative and a finishing medium as you show is probably a better option. Though the application of the medium does look scary! Thanks for your very instructional videos, they are an immense help!

[@deborahking9049]

Dorland’s and other wax mediums are a combination of waxes and Damar varnish or resins. Easy to put on because of the wax, as the wax dries and evaporates it leaves the varnish or resin behind. Buffing between layers removes left over wax and really enhances the painting. It’s less mess and easier to clean up after perfect for small work spaces and better for people who can’t use chemical sprays and liquids.

[@edzejandehaan9265]

@@deborahking9049 Thanks for that information. Sounds like an interesting option (my workspace is indeed rather small). I'll see if I can get a can of it...

[@sallyskellington2004]

Looks very good. Im going to give that a try. I usually go with glass.

[@ann-marielofberg1159]

Thanks for this tutorial, now I know one way to frame and also how to seal them

[@aprilstark8887]

Absolutely beautiful finished piece of artwork!

[@donnaremeika9507]

Thanks so much for such valuable information....have many watercolour pieces I have painted over the years and have framed many but now I can do some of your technique...great..Donna Remeika.

[@jude1515]

Beautiful painting and great tutorial! I was looking for something to put my watercolors on.

[@allanfink6138]

This is a cool framing technique. What is the largest format you have framed this way? I would think larger sizes would be cumbersome, and difficult to align correctly...? Have you ever coated a finished watercolor with white shellac? It sort of reverses the "watercolor dries lighter" effect, and makes the colors very intense. It gives it a gloss finish. It brings out the brush strokes a lot. I like the effect but it pisses off the watercolor purists. Kind of puts it into a "mixed media" category, but try it some time on a practice piece you don't care about first. And make sure it is white shellac not yellow or it will turn orange, which can be cool in its own way, but rarely desirable.

[@mindofwatercolor]

Most have been around this size. Not used white shellac, no.

[@4ohgollycats]

Thank you for the information! Didn’t have a clue before watching!

[@essietangle9931]

Thanks Steve, its always great to see the steps. I need to add some UV spray to my supplies. I remember the painting, I tried a paint along with the video. Hope all is well with your family.

[@mindofwatercolor]

Thanks Essie! Still insanely busy personal life right now but all is good.

[@Tespen42]

Thanks, Steve. Just saw the video and the process is an excellent way of preserving watercolor. Too bad my pastels can't be done that way. Love the channel.

[@rhemasartspace]

My first time to come across this channel and I learned a lot! I should do the same with my paintings. Thank you for sharing 🙌😄

[@ladygwarth]

I just put three coats of cold wax medium directly on the painting with a soft cloth, once fixed to a surface. It works brilliantly and creates a soft sheet if buffed between each layer and doesn’t move the paint layer. I use acrylic gel medium as the glue as it is archival. I also put the cold wax medium on the side of a cradled frame and buff that up too.

[@boubella11]

Do you think that just using wax will protect it from light and moisture? I’m doing it both ways but there is some controversy about how each protects.

[@ladygwarth]

@@boubella11 it protects from water drops on top of it as I’ve experimented with that, and I would think the light fastness would be down to the paint pigment, but I’m no expert. Like any painting I would treat it with respect as all are liable to damage if handled badly.

[@danacherlin1863]

Is it okay to spray with the uv protective varnish on top of the wax coats?

[@bethbrampton649]

@@danacherlin1863 I've heard someone authoritative say to spray with UV varnish or fixative right on the watercolor, then apply the wax. Best of both worlds, I guess.

[@barbaramilbradt2188]

@@danacherlin1863 It may bead up on top of the wax.

[@KingyoArt]

Thanks for sharing this framing method! I usually make a mess when framing my artwork and your process gave me some perspective on how to do it. I've always been curious about floating frames, but with double glass. I tried to find a tutorial about it some time ago, but couldn't. If you or anyone happen to know about this framing method and can share it, I'll be really thankful!!

[@elvinachristopherson5970]

I've been told you need to use GAC 100 to seal the wood. Also, cutting that close sure requires no errors. Use light to place your crop. Reason to not let mat medium is will make shiny spot that shows when staining or painting edge. Also warn not to put seversl layers of semigloss as will cloud painting.

[@brodouglasop]

I remember watching you paint this vignette. It has come full circle. Thank you, Steve.

[@dianalamm9938]

Super, looks awesome. I do use a product called Fixatif by Krylon to seal my paintings. I have tried Gamblin wax, but but only after Fixatif first. It has been a while since I tried that and I don't recall results. I guess I didn't think much of it either way. Thank you for sharing this clip.

[@saryanavatishaya2084]

Looks easy. I'm wondering how to make mine so perfect when I'm using blocks of pine wood w/o the cradle. I love the idea of the floating frame. Thank you.

[@ChrisBellArt]

Love this vid... I loved your spontaneous watercolor class too...

[@genevievegate2207]

merci beaucoup très intéressant je ne savais comment faire et grâce à vous je vais pouvoir me lancer encore un très grand merci

[@Dizzy5878]

I’m new to your channel and am looking forward to watching more of them.

[@zmermaid3]

Steve, wanted to let you know. I was curious about sealing the cradle board. I've been gessoing it prior to mounting my watercolor and then wondered whether that was necessary. So i called Blick and talked to one of their product reps. He said it was crucial to gesso the board because there are chemicals in the wood that can offgass and harm the watercolor over time. Just wanted to pass that info on.

[@felicitycrowe6971]

I think he used an archival cradle. I think that might mean that it doesn’t need sealing, maybe? I’m not sure. Certainly, after reading through the comments, it seems that there are plenty of cradles out there that do need to be sealed, though …

[@barbbarnes469]

Beautiful work and beautiful job mounting. I have one question and one STRONG suggestion. Question: can the artwork still "breathe" under there so it can "move" according to the weather? Suggestion: I got so nervous watching you cut while steadying a normal sized ruler in your left hand. I used to quilt and used a small ruler exactly like that one. I was using a rotary cutter and accidentally cut off the tip of my left index finger doing that! Took 6 hours and a trip to the E.R. to stop bleeding. PLEASE, everyone reading this, get a quilting ruler which is wider AND see through. It will help with measuring, marking and saving your hands.

[@mindofwatercolor]

Thanks for your concerns but I strongly disagree!! Always use a metal ruler. Mine is cork backed to prevent sliding. Plastic rulers will slide and can be cut by the knife. Metal is much safer! I've done it both ways and have been cutting like this for over 40 years. Professional artists pretty much always use metal rulers for cutting. Being careful of where your fingers are is just an awareness thing. NO ruler will prevent those accidents. And also, rotary blades may be fine for cloth (since it bunches) but I strongly recommend not using them for paper or board. Not as easy to control.

[@kaykelsch2027]

Absolutely beautiful!

[@wendymorris8706]

Very helpful video. Love the painting too.