Church Historian: Here’s How I Approach Complex Church History - Dr. Steven C. Harper E0020

[@sotl97]

When I am in depressive moments, i live on what I know, not what I am currently feeling.

[@brit0309]

Love this

[@abovethestormclouds]

Your statement demonstrates a healthy emotional resilience and regulation. Well done! Beliefs ⮕ Emotions (motivators) ⮕ Thoughts & Actions ⮕ Outcomes (reinforcing beliefs). God has blessed us with the ability to reshape our beliefs to align with truth as we learn and gain wisdom of what's truth. Truth is greater than but not equal to beliefs. Many, many unwise people mistakenly rely on them being equal. Only God who knows all knows all truth. As we know, truths are confirmed by the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) and when we can learn to be sensitive to the Spiritual in quietly personal and simple ways, we can feel confident and know what's true. God and what's natural (universal law that mankind and even God are subject to) isn't complicated because everything works in an efficiently organized system and purposeful plan. The truths we can know are relative to our understanding of that plan. The more we can learn this plan, we can come to understand God and His purposes, and find strength in who God has designed us to be in that plan. Remember, truth ≩ beliefs.

[@andrewjw07]

@@abovethestormclouds Resilience may be a virtue, but it's shadow vice is stiffneckedness or stubborness. The virtue opposite and complimentary to resiliency is humility or plasticity, yet the shadow vice here is being wishy washy and infirm. Seeking God is something like finding ourselves struggling between two opposite and complimentary virtues, such as resiliency and plasticity, to appropriately deal with the demands of our environment. Of course, if we get stuck on either resiliency or plasticity, we abandon virtue and get stuck on those destructive vices, being stiffnecked or infirm, both of which we can find several scriptural examples which resulted in the angry retaliation of God. Marry resiliency to plasticity and enter fully into highest descriptions of life, reality, and intelligence and you will find your "Way" or "Christ" through.

[@alaster67]

AMEN! Once the Holy Ghost has impressed upon our spirit -- the truth. Regardless of our circumstances, we move towards that direction that He has pointed that's known as -- faithfulness, *dead reckoning. The Spirit will continue to guide us because of our faithfulness. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. Isaiah 42:16 *In this instance, it brings eternal life that surpasses all: Our understanding Trials Sacrifices

[@dustinkearl]

It’s funny. The minute I decided to NOT let the noise interfere with my lack of getting an answer, that’s when I got my answers. I definitely believe that the noise is sometimes the trial of our faith.

[@CMZIEBARTH]

Through mists of darkness we MUST go.

[@saa8488]

Forever dangling the carrot. There’s always an excuse

[@unholywarrior9007]

And sometimes we never get an answer

[@CMZIEBARTH]

@@unholywarrior9007 Are you referring to getting an answer in response to personal prayer?

[@unholywarrior9007]

@@CMZIEBARTH it could be either . Say for example when Eve had triplets Mary then a few minutes layer Cain and Able. We know Cain killed Able but the story is so vague we don't know if Cain and Able had families how old they were ect . So good luck finding out if Abel had children that survived ect no answers

[@katmmcdonald]

I discovered Steven Harper on a podcast or KZbin several years ago. His testimony and teachings on Joseph Smith/Church History completely changed me. I’m so grateful we have access to wonderful discussions like this one.

[@Allthoseopposed]

I’m curious how Steven Harper impacted your testimony of Joseph Smith and church history. Did he expand your understanding of an event you already believed to be true or were you struggling with the conflicting historical info, like we find in the GTE’s?

[@katmmcdonald]

@@Allthoseopposed I listened to his testimony on KZbin “The Witnesses and Christology of the Book of Mormon - Interview with Steven C. Harper” and read my 3rd great grandfather’s testimony of working side by side with Joseph Smith. Those two testimonies witnessed to me the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The Spirit was undeniable. I’ve looked for more of Steven’s work and writing, he uses language that speaks to my soul. He’s clear, precise, and stays focused on Christ. That’s all I need.

[@timwrightfamily740]

One of the classiest podcasts on KZbin. Guests, interview style, lighting, production value, and editing is world class, thank you so much.

[@droundyCubby]

Agree!

[@dallintheriault9747]

Totally. Not only that but Stephen does such a great job at letting the person speak, and then asking questions to spurn up the conversation. I love the guests he chooses and the way he interacts with them.

[@droundyCubby]

@@dallintheriault9747 Love your thoughts and agree, and I have you a hint. to spurn means to reject with disdain or contempt: To spur is to prompt or encourages someone. Very close to hear it but very different in meaning. Spur come from spurs a rider of a horse wears that spur of urge the horse forward. so I agree with what I think you meant, that Stephen Jones does a great job of spurring the conversation on. Is that what you meant?

[@dallintheriault9747]

Thanks for the correction! I totally meant spur.

[@droundyCubby]

@@dallintheriault9747 You are welcome I am an English Professor, retired, and I really have a hard time controlling myself. I took a chance because I was pretty sure I knew what you wanted.

[@AdamClarkx1]

"Relentless repentance is the way to live". That's quite the thought. love this.

[@maryannstout7600]

Thanks Bro. Jones for having Bro. Harper on your show. I wasn’t sure that I wanted to listen to anything he had to say. However I stumbled upon your show tonight at 3:something AM, and it held my attention like a super strong magnet. I just couldn’t resist listening to it. It has definitely strengthened my confidence in the Church, and I didn’t think I needed it strengthened any further. I thought I already had a great testimony. Listening to your podcast has definitely helped my testimony become stronger. Thanks 🙏 again.❤😊 But it is now 4:23am and my brain is shutting down to sleep.😊😊

[@deborahgaebler966]

One of the best Gospel discussions I have ever heard. Make sure and listen until the end bc his testimony is so powerful

[@aBrewster29]

Dr Harper changed my life and my testimony for the better. I absolutely loved his class. I think we’re glazing over an important piece here-it’s not simply learning something new that is troubling. It’s that the manner of that new learning points to a betrayal of trust that was given when we had the “third-grade” understanding. Any manifestation of the “not all truths are useful” mentality needs to be accounted for, because the Church still explicitly calls for full trust despite past breaches. Edit to add: I think most people can tell the difference between information that was actively withheld and challenging information that another party has made a good-faith effort to share in proper context. And this isn’t just a matter of challenging history-the SEC debacle shows this is a current issue too.

[@TedOmer-c6i]

Stephen Harper is an excellent historian and scholar. His faith and testimony amplify his insights and interpretation.

[@russberg900]

The more I study and learn, the more converted I am!

[@xxxgabaxxx]

Not studying very well then, fella.

[@tomarmstrong5041]

Totally

[@binmyrtmind]

Great! I’ll never understand people who refuse to read The Book of Mormon, or to gain more knowledge from additional sources. We have so many resources available and no matter how much I read the scripture’s I find something else. I grow in understanding, desire to be close to Jesus; and most importantly, apprehend just what he did for us.

[@crossingthemountain]

Wow. What’s that recipe for that Kool-aid? I just see flawed logic in all arguments. Just church trying to tap into what changes people or influences them. That’s their game. “Heart-sell,” any Ensign Peak beneficiaries of floods of funding stolen from grandparents of current day millennials who might have benefitted from help/support when gas is $4/gallon? Well, at least the coming day of empty temples will have their carpets cleaned regularly and power bills paid until the end of time, from your stock market investments from stolen tithes.

[@matthewadkins9810]

I grew up in the church, and was fully active with a temple reccomend until 2021. The more I read scripture (Bible, BoM, D&C, Book of Abraham) the less and less I believe. Not a disbelief in God, but in the church and Joseph Smith.

[@tacticplanner7188]

I have offen said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, yet learning is essential. We are responsible for what we take in. That's when once you start on the path of learning, there is never an end.

[@lizh7777]

I teach my kids that it all comes down to having a relationship with God and Christ. Everything is secondary.

[@jamestrek2570]

Exactly. Try telling your bishop that attending the church being a temple goer paying tithing is all SECONDARY to having a personal relationship with God. Let’s see what the Mormon bishops will say then.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

@@jamestrek2570 Those things come as a sign to God and Christ if you have a testimony of God and Christ. They are simply outward signs to God that you love Him and have faith in Him. Did you know the tithing is not a “Mormon” principle, but a Biblical Law from God? My husband and I lived it when we were so poor in grad school. We said we could not afford to NOT pay our tithing… because we saw miracle after miracle when we walked in faith and kept this law. Those were such sweet days of hardship, and poverty… yet miracles from heaven sustaining us! Now we are upperclass and still live this law. It’s the first thing we do… pay tithing. We still see blessings from obeying this law. We never want to live without these blessings… God keeps His promises when we obey Him. The temple is not for everyone… but I run to it now. The symbolism is next level glorious. It is the Hebrew wedding ceremony and engagement being played out. Every-single action points to Christ and His Plan, goodness and His love. I’ll be real, for the first few years it wasn’t easy for me. I was confused and did not understand what was happening. I’ve been studying the symbols and the ceremonies and I feel like my soul is expanding and the blindness over my eyes is lifting off! It is such an enormous blessing! It is of God. The temple brings me to Christ and I have been closer to Him in His holy house! The veil over the earth is beginning to burst! He is coming to His house of worship and I love it! When I leave I feel like I’m walking three feet off the ground! But it’s not for everyone. That’s perfectly ok. Keep loving Him and seeking Him and you will find Him! He loves all His Children whether they are inside or outside the church! God’s cosmic timetable is perfect! ☀️❤️

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@jamestrek2570we are speaking about knowledge. Not having some sort of pre existent relationship with God. We go to church, pay tithes, and do other things to build our relationship with God. Those things are separate.

[@TheLORDisJOY]

Amen!!! Relationship with the Lord is primary!!! The Lord fulfilled the law and now Holy Spirit is leading us into the revelation of a sovereign God who does not share His glory with anyone, yet He made us to be co-heirs with Him!

[@michaeljhuntsman]

In a world where a belief in God seems to be waning, a thought came to me while I was meditating 2 days ago that Our Heavenly Father desperately needs to hear from us. I imagine an elderly parent sitting in a care center who for years hasn't been heard from their children. Visiting God can be done anytime, anywhere, He wants and needs us... "And he liveth those who will have him be their God" 1 Nephi 17: 40

[@c0l33ng0r33]

When i feel anxious about what's oing on now i just lean toward the Lord and say, "hey which side are you on? I trust you." and it calms my troubles right away. I love how he comforts me.

[@MagicJonesMusic]

I most definitely didn't have the time to dedicate to this video - or at least that's what I thought when I clicked the play button. Best spent hour-and-forty-minutes of this year. Thank you so much. My testimony has been fortified and I'll be thinking about the points in this video for a long time. I=0. I+Jesus = infinity. I love this so much.

[@mccartneydave]

I've always appreciated the down-to-earth logic that Dr. Harper uses when he presents his thoughts and experiences. Going to enjoy watching this multiple times. Thanks, SJ!

[@Anonymous_Monkey]

This was an awesome interview! I love the “real” approach. Love the idea that there’s no reason we should dive deep into all of these issues. They will build our faith. Comes down to a choice to approach with faith, hope, and charity as Dr. Harper mentioned. Thank you for this!

[@wendyfoster5579]

This is an outstanding discussion. Brother Harper’s son served his mission with my husband and me. They are an outstanding family and doing so much good for so many.

[@PageTurnersbooktube523]

literally going through some rough times with my faith right now. Needed this video. Glad I came across it.

[@LetsGetRealSJ]

@@PageTurnersbooktube523 I'm so glad this was helpful for you. What other topics do you have questions about that could be helpful?

[@catalinaleavitt5798]

Don’t lose Hope…!! I’m a convert and I’ve learned that studying scripture, remaining active and strengthening my relationship to God- helps me see the obstacles, the untruths that fill the world etc. ❣️

[@dinocollins720]

Love Steven Harper! Such an amazing scholar!

[@shaunnasparks8405]

This was so powerful for me! I’m dealing with a family member that has been affected by tough history in the church and is willing to listen to alternative voices instead of finding answers from his own investigation. This gives me so much hope and a way to approach my own questions although my feet are planted firmly. Thanks for this one! I will listen to this again I’m sure!!

[@MarvelousWonderPodcast]

I love Steven Harper's approach to history and the way he expresses things. He spoke at a stake conference I attended a few years ago and I remember him saying something like "the critics and I know all the same facts", and that helped me see more clearly that faith and belief are a choice. Thank you for sharing!

[@wendyfoster5579]

Right, and where does doubting leave you? With no resources when the trials hit and the benefit of being buoyed up along the way.

[@SimonDaumMusic]

Asking the hard questions is always a good thing, because whatever the truth, it will make people free. So yes, not adressing things makes things worse. Honesty and being authentic about things always turned out best for me.

[@mondesir3673]

This is one of the best one yet!! Thank you to you both! ❤

[@Hemidakota]

I use the same approach as Professor Harper's father when it comes to gaining new insights, whether they are true or a forgery, and allow them to mature over time.

[@jaylambert2838]

We are all just imperfect, fallen beings trying to understand and follow perfect, exalted beings. Give our leaders a little grace and you will find a history full of devoted, sincere, and powerful men and women who deserve our respect and gratitude.

[@tammigarlick1234]

Amen! Great comment!

[@johnrowley310]

Best at running stock portfolios...

[@whitneylin4297]

Such wonderful wisdom. I appreciated Steven’s testimony at the end. I am thankful for his faith and his scholarship, and for his efforts to build and strengthen the kingdom of God. Another excellent episode!

[@johnrowley310]

The history of the Mormon church is so wonderful and uplifting that it has been hidden until the internet forced it to the surface...

[@kristinrichmond8185]

I loved this discussion. Powerful testimony of our Lord and Savior. Thank you for sharing both your knowledge and wisdom, and also your witness of Christ.

[@exp2tr10t]

After my master's in American Studies in Germany, I learned to never treat history, or any man-made discipline, as a deity. Every time I see the word "perhaps" in major works that won any sort of accolade, I'm reminded that there are some things that history is never going to be qualified to answer (including "what's the true religion"). Thank you, Dr. Harper!

[@carolesterner5313]

I just discovered your show & I want to thank you with all my heart for what you do. Your choice of guests, the probing questions you ask so sincerely, and most of your joy when you learn something you never thought before about our Savior and His restored gospel. I’ve been in a spiritual low lately due to depression that I’ve fought all my life and in the 3 episodes of your show I have watched feel like the discussions I’ve listened to havesword of Christ cutting through the dark around me and let the light show me truth.

[@kimhulbert8449]

This has been an incredible discussion. Eye opening, spirit filled and testimony affirming. Brother Harper is amazing. Thank you for having him on Brother Jones. Your questions are so thought provoking.

[@loveslife]

Thank you for this, as I've been struggling to be discerning and knowing what's me and what God's voice.

[@dixiehansen8226]

Wonderful testimony. Thank you!

[@brettmajeske3525]

It is not just members, but American as a whole do not understand how the academic discipline of history works.

[@aharonwsmith]

The church portrays this bull crap feel narrative, just do what we tell you everything will be OK, don't worry we cannot lead you astray, if you follow our holy prophet then you can find christ. Pay no attention to the political moves we make, don't worry about the people we ex for telling the truth, submit to our "authorty" we know how to lead like jesus and it's like what a load of crap. We got to set this notion of "prophet worship" aside and use our brains a little bit. Hierarchy in and of itself is a big part of the problem.

[@aharonwsmith]

The church is bloated with administrative beuraracy, secretive about it's billions of dollars, and hardly says anything inspiring.

[@aharonwsmith]

It's funny the more I put my faith in Jesus Christ the more I realize how curropt the church is

[@chuckintexas]

Didnt pay attention in the 7th grade - "We'll never need THIS STUFF!"

[@Garyguygax]

The academic discipline of history has HUGE biases and blind spots.

[@markhales7192]

Steve Harper's dad was a great and kind man. He later served as a patriarch.

[@brit0309]

Wonderful fathers make beautiful men. I have 8 brothers, all beautiful. And dang bro, handsome as ever.. His.shoulders and arms are always 👌🏼-

[@pfoxworth7]

I have a picture of Steven Harper and myself while we were in the MTC. I only met him briefly, but I think it is awesome that we members are a part of a very rare group.

[@spencerharmon681]

@16:00 and before. Mark Twain says. "It ain't what you know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so." I found that quote a bit over a year ago, and it's so true!

[@edgarmiranda4917]

What a marvelous way to tech us that great true of the real concept of God Thanks for having bro. Harper interview.

[@bobjensen8040]

The witness of the Spirit that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Christ, restored, has gotten me through all of my "fast thinking".

[@johnrowley310]

I stand as a witness that the Mormon church is a false creation of Smith and the boys.. Just follow the money...Christ would be disgusted...

[@hollygrayson5592]

That was excellent thank you for sharing

[@r.scottthomas4018]

Loved my religion class with Brother Harper at BYU. Great guy!

[@doradito33]

Love these discussions, thank you for your examples of faith and learning!

[@dmitrynikiforov1986]

Thank you for this conversation, it was very important for many people to hear

[@jasonsnyder8341]

Man the spirit stirs my soul. The gospel is so simple yet i find it so difficult. There is this constant tug of war between the flesh and the spirit. It can be so discouraging at times. When the spirit speaks to you reminding you that you need to repent the natural tendency, at least mine, is to put the thought out. Why do i do this. Sometimes the spirit dosent feel good but whom the Lord loveth, the Lord chasteneth. Repentance is hard, it goes against our natural tendencies. We must yeild to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man. Easier said than done but we must try and try we will and success will follow.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

@@jasonsnyder8341 Great thought! I just read a man amazing talk on faith and opposition. “The Trial of Faith Empowers Faith”- by Larry Barkdull (November 18, 2022) In that talk he speaks of how our mortal bodies are in direct opposition to our spirits. Our bodies are corruptible, sinful, lustfull, greedful. Our spirits are eternal and pure. So every minute of everyday we have the tug of war with our spirits and bodies with min ourselves. That’s why in the scriptures it states “our natural man is an enemy to God.” Our bodies do not desire the things of God by our spirits do. Depending on which part we strengthen and feed is the one that’s going win. That’s why we are told to daily repent, study the words of Christ and pray, those exercises strengthen our spirits and we can know more fully the will of God and do it. If we give into our natural man/bodies… we become blinded to the things of God and strengthen our natural man’s carnal desires. The talk was so insightful and instructive on why opposition needs to happen. You are dearly loved! God isn’t waiting for you to mess up and then He can take vengeance. He adores you and wants to reveal His love, might and power for you. He came not to demand our Allegiance, but to display his affection. Assume grace not guilt, We are children at school here in mortality gaining wisdom, experience and knowledge. It’s so crazy amazing…His perfect plan! ☀️🙏🏻❤️

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

@@jasonsnyder8341 One last thought… President Nelson has encouraged us to joyfully repent daily… when you think about what an amazing gift it is to experience, learn falldown, fail miserably over and over and get Christ said ANYTIME we turn back to Him and accept Him, He WILL receive us, broken, unholy, imperfect, miserable sinners… he accepts and adores us fallen, putrid, dirty, lustful creatures… because He knows who he created and He knows our true spirits! In Him our weakness becomes strengths!!! ☀️🙏🏻❤️

[@TheRealDonLayton]

His experience is very similar to my experience. Exposed to a LOAD of critical material when I was 16, it shook me a bit. I slowed down, decided to do my own investigation. I centered my study on the Bible and Book of Mormon and came out of it with a strong testimony. Since that time, I've discovered real answers to virtually every dart that was thrown my way. The church is true and because of that, I expect the enemy knows it too, and he will not let us rest easy.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

❤️☀️🙌🏻love your testimony!

[@TheArkisSteady]

Thank you, this is a really great way to look at it. The enemy does know, of course he tries to mislabel history and make it look bad.

[@CMZIEBARTH]

Similar here.

[@TheJanesaw]

I love the think slow concept Dr Harper talks about and I can feel his compassion for other people. We need to be trained on how to react when new data is presented. Reminder: the experience young Steven had was some church leaders were duped by authenticators and historians of something that was fake. There were a lot of enemies to Joseph smith and they didn’t care if they lied. Things don’t have to forgeries to be false. How many things today make it thru the cracks that the church is embracing right now that is also false (referring to church history not the gospel)?

[@jlombardfnp-c]

So I’m not Mormon, but I have heard my share of answers too; however, I’ve had to come to reject them because they were utterly foolish. So I’m a very unique Protestant Christian in my beliefs on eschatology. Not all answers are good or truthful answers.

[@scottydangerous]

Great podcast, this absolutely strengthened me! Thank you for for laying things out so simply.

[@beatricesavasta6710]

I loved hearing your testimonies. Thank you for sharing.

[@Bitter_Beauty_Music]

45 minutes in and I'm nodding along to literally everything. It took me a long time and a lot of thought to learn all this and I'm glad it's being shared!

[@tune490]

I love Dr. Harper. I had the privilege of taking his class at BYU.

[@louiserood8499]

Thank you-so powerful and helpful!

[@JerkerSvensson-c1d]

So interesting to hear the way you approach this with Church history! Thanks for explaining how to use a academic technic.

[@brit0309]

Stoooooked 🙌 Steven C Harper is legitness

[@sarahjoym]

This was another fantastic interview! Thank you so much for sharing this with us. My personal favourite part was to hear the testimony born at the end of this. What a beautiful witness that when we are willing to humbly seek for truth, as well as the Lord, our testimony that starts by praying to have the desire to desire to repent will in time become firmer and firmer until it becomes a sure and perfect knowledge. Keep up the great work 🥰

[@dorothypitts4768]

This was good!!

[@nathanking3395]

Love this type of content! Keep it up!

[@LetsGetRealSJ]

We will keep them comin.

[@matt-yx5nm]

absolutely outstanding conversation gentlemen... thank you.!!

[@guytrout7101]

Well done.

[@danieldunbar2956]

Great discussion!

[@GAILandROD]

Documents - can be dubious. I have a high freak out index...thank heavens! Great interview.

[@jasonsnyder8341]

From my experience with depression your experience and others experience always trump what the experts say. Its about learning to trust your inner voice which in my opinion usually contradicts the voice of the experts.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

First vision accounts at 1:20:57. The most important part of the discussion surrounding the First Vision is did it happen. There are at least 10 versions known to scholars of early Mormon history. However something had to have happened in the sacred grove. If there was no First Vision, then there is no prophet called in Joseph Smith. There was also no start of the restoration. There would also be no reason to deny the Trinity. There would most likely not be a LDS church established in 1830, or the Book of Mormon published in 1829. The First Vision has to occur in order for the rest to follow. Critics get too caught up in the 10 versions, claiming that means it never happened.

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

It's really the 4 Smith versions that are the problem. They are self-evidently contradictory. That's the problem. Secondarily they aggrandize over time, starting with a rather mundane visionary experience in 1832 (common to the time and place), to an unbeatable claim that GOD himself appeared and introduced Jesus to Joseph. I call it the Rigdon effect. Everything aggrandized after Rigdon came on the scene.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

That’s why it’s so important to study it out, read all the accounts, read Jospeh’s words and talk to God. God is good and will not allow Satan to answer a heart felt prayer. That’s why God in James 1:5 told His children He will be there to answer ALL our questions while we’re here on earth “at school” if we sincerely ask. Joseph was searching, pondering and wanted to do God’s will. His mother was telling him to join her church, friends and family members were telling him to join others. I’ve been in Jospeh’s position where I needed to know From God what to do with certain challenges. Although my family and friends and doctors were all telling me to do different things, I knew God knew what was best, and He surely does answer prayers in His perfect way and cosmic timetable. Christ told His apostles before he ascended back to heaven that deception would be the sign that would be happening upon the earth before He returned a second time. How I love the gift of the Holy Spirit that bears witness to my soul of truth. That I can rely on my Creator and Father to teach me truth. I cannot wait to meet and thank Joseph for being willing to be an instrument in the Lord’s hands to restore the everlasting gospel. I’m blown away by the beauty and truths found within. Wow, just wow! Best of blessings as you sort through all the lies and slander. ❤️☀️

[@wheels636]

​@rodneyjamesmcguire As a young man like Joseph was he was persecuted right out of the block when he first mentioned it. I'm sure he was very reserved in what he released to the public. I'm sure he got braver as times went on and released more. Hence the different versions. But because you or I weren't there we'll never know until the day we can ask brother Joseph in person.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

@@wheels636 ❤️👍🏻☀️I agree, it’s hard to recreate history with our present view and limited information.

[@tamaraelsberry6630]

​@@rodneyjamesmcguire Don Bradley (the historian mentioned in this video who left the church, then came back) makes a good point about the differing accounts. When you are recounting an event you often taylor it to your audience. Based on what you think they can understand or recieve. When I ponder on that.. I realize I often do the same thing. I gauge what I think the listener can understand as try to explain an unusual experience or little understood concept to them. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. That doesn't mean my experience, or knowledge I learned didn't happen or that I'm making it up.

[@TheGreaterU]

Very pertinent discussion.

[@paulah7222]

Thoughtful. Enlightening. I've watched three of your interviews; now I'm going to catch up on the others.

[@trainguy7261]

I am fine with not knowing answers to tough questions because I don't need to know. My time is precious and I would rather focus on what I do know. My lifetime of gospel experiences can't be denied and I am sticking with what I know to be true. The shaky past can stay in the past in my world. I wasn't there so it has nothing to do with me.

[@janapierce8564]

So good!

[@coleenburris6816]

Thank you for sharing your true information.

[@GaryLArnell]

Dr. Harper gives some great advice about "thinking slow", hermeneutics, expectations, assumptions, and metacognition. He's also the first semi-official/church employee I've heard who has openly stated "We could find plenty of fault with Brigham Young if we wanted to", followed by "and that's a fine thing to do if we don't then become judge, jury, and executioner. We can learn from faults, from people in the past, if we bring faith, hope, and charity to that project" (55:59). Can "learning from faults\people in the past" include pointing out in church settings\talks specific mistakes people in the past have made? We do that with Korihor, Sherem, Nehor, King Noah, John C. Bennett, etc., but I have yet to hear the mistakes of Brigham Young openly discussed. It also seems Dr. Harper engaged in some gas-lighting when he said that the only members who aren't aware of the problems in church history are those who've had "their head in the sand" (6:59) or "stay at a third-grade level of gospel knowledge" (17:10). You can attend church for decades and graduate from seminary and institute, and so long as you stick to church correlated content there is a ton of "disruptive" material, as Dr. Harper calls it, that you won't come in contact with.

[@lauranorris1713]

Thank you.

[@jeboden]

Loved this. So powerful. Great way to articulate testimony and doubt and slowing down when we are confronted with new and troubling information. I could have done without the problematic slight on therapist at the end but other than that, it was great.

[@tacticplanner7188]

All of us are going from grace to grace until we don't need to be here anymore. I perish the thought of generations yet unborn trying to understand our time and use the star or national enquirer as a source for our current society. I have hated Richard Bushman for years for harming the character of my beloved Joseph and from recently made statements by him and realizing that words are not sufficient the Spirit will always be superior and should be the primary source.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

Neat little thought about Rough Stone Rolling… Bushman is an American historian NOT a church historian. He came to an event my husband was at and took questions after he spoke. He was asked about his sources by a church historian, and he admitted he used documents and sources that were antagonistic towards the church but didn’t know at the time. I don’t know why he never rewrote or added that into his references. But God knows all things. And though we think some things are harming the church, they end up being spring boards to gathering His children. I love our dear Joseph too. ☀️🙏🏻

[@tacticplanner7188]

@Icanonlyimagn7891 that is something I have also come to know through different channels. Seems the one thing we so easily forget in our modern society is that the blood of our Savior is good for everyone and that forgiveness is to be freely given. I try not to be harsh with others. We are all finding our way by barrowed light.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

@@tacticplanner7188 beautifully said! Thank you!🥰☀️

[@Derek-ck3ff]

@@tacticplanner7188 Not trying to be antagonistic. Just want to understand this statement and your previous one. Does this mean you have stopped hating Richard Bushman?

[@Hol0gr4m]

I recently read an article from the Christian Religious Professor Mark D. Harris which went through the different accounts of Paul and the variations within them depending on the audience he relayed them to and the length of time from when the event took place. The conclusion for the varying accounts of Paul is that the variation adds to the reliability and authenticity of his testimony of the vision he had with the Lord. If a Christian were to be honest and consistent, the same conclusion should be applied to Joseph Smith as well, in relation to his authenticity between the First Vision Accounts he gave.

[@marydoffermyre6014]

Wonderful discussion! Thank you so much!

[@lindamartinez7006]

I love church history . The more o learn of church history makes my testimony even stronger . Church history true church history is wonderful

[@daviddrysdale8882]

Regarding Hoffman, I do remember a comment by Elder Oaks at the time along the lines of, "As Church leaders, we tend to believe, giving others the benefit of the doubt! And, we later learned, Hoffman's story was full of lies and deceit!

[@LetsGetRealSJ]

11:46 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHfJi5mEq6ihqrssi=QnSr3OErElAaVEfR&t=706

[@gwengold8154]

David Alexander always says that another name for Satan in the scriptures is "accuser of the brethren." He further points out that LOVE believes the best about people. If you have charity (which is the pure love of Christ), then it is rather hard for you to think ill of anyone. At least not to begin with. You are honest of heart and deed, and you receive others the same way. It is Satan's purview to be suspicious and accuse and instantly think the worst about people.

[@mokoloki]

Oaks apologetics for the letter was hilarious, rationalizing away how Moroni was actually a giant salamander. Not only shows complete lack of discernment, but also a willingness to decieve in order to keep people believing.

[@mokoloki]

He's totally misunderstood and misapplied the term Satan. It was a role God gave to certain angels, to go harass/accuse/test humans, like in the story of Job. People in old testament times did not have our same concept of a Satan character, much less apostles to be accused of things.

[@gwengold8154]

@mokoloki1657 they accused the Lord Jesus Christ of deception before him. Just as scripture prophesied. The Lord truly prophesied that if they were of the world, the world would love them. But they are not of the world, so the world will hate them.

[@jeffcummings1985]

1:04:10 I'd like to read the talk by Elder Kyle S. McKay he mentioned here. Does anyone know where to find it?

[@dirtbikeutah9615]

I am glad I have left the Church and I do not have to do the Mental Gymnastics that Dr. Harper goes through in this Video to try and make sense of the 4 different First Vision versions. President Joseph Fielding Smith even had problems with the different versions. That is why he removed the 1832 version from the church records only to add it back in after the Tanners showed its existence. To approach the First Vision with skepticism like Vogel, and not with faith like Bushman. Makes more sense because "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" One thing he never address is the fact that there is NO record of the First Vision before 1832. Joseph Smith said he was persecuted "All his Days" after telling people right after of the First Vision. There so NO record of it EVER being mentioned. This is a huge problem to me. And he never even brings it up.

[@tombalderree]

Anywhere else, but in the church, are we told that "It's natural to have different versions (of what happened) for different audiences". EVERYWHERE else that would be called lying. The truth is the truth.

[@tdm2298]

​​@@tombalderreeI believe we do give varying versions when we tell others of our experiences, depending on the audience or the situation. In conversations with individuals or groups of people, we humanes don't generally talk to each other in memorized speeches. If I am speaking to a relative or friend, I may give more details. To another, I may be answering a specific question they asked me. In other situations, I may share little of the experience. That is just normal communication. If you want to learn spiritual things, you must learn through the spirit. If you are truelly seeking to know the truth as to whether God lives, whether the Bible or Book of Mormon are true, and whether or not Christ has restored his Gospel to the earth in our day through prophets, I submit that you CAN know the truth of these things. Study it, ponder it, then pray to your Father in Heaven with a sincere heart, if these things are true. He will answer those who truely seek the truth. I testify that these things are indeed true.

[@nickallen2288]

> leaves the church > can’t stfu about it Yeah that’s pretty typical. Congrats. You’re not the first dork to do it. You want a medal?

[@jeffreyturner4252]

@@tdm2298agreed

[@rfloster]

Brother DirtBike from Utah. You’re glad you left the church, and here you are commenting about a tiny portion of this podcast that’s about an hour in?

[@cynthianicolascastro5674]

I really love this episode and learned a lot. Thank you for sharing your insights.

[@Kentucky338]

Just great discussion

[@kaitlyndobson3281]

Thank you for touching on mental illness. So I have depression with psychosis. So yes it can really hard to know if it is the holy ghost or my depression. Then will go months with no spiritual communication then all the sudden the fogs lefts and his back. I have to remember the past. Thing it's why God makes me feel it so powerfully, so I will never forget.

[@DarrylDriggs-co8bx]

We all have some pieces to the puzzle of Life. The plan of salvation is like having a painting/ photograph of what all the pieces put together looks like; which makes it easier to know where to put the pieces of the puzzle.

[@jeffreyturner4252]

I like what President Oaks has said. Paraphrasing him. The wisest course may be not to contest a person’s objections to Church activities or doctrine or personnel. The only and ultimate treatment for those who are in, or seriously headed toward, apostasy is to increase their faith in Jesus Christ. If a person’s apostasy or tendency toward apostasy is based on a highly focused and difficult challenge, there will be a tendency to try to take it head on. But we do not know enough about the will of the Lord and the fulness of Church doctrine to satisfy. An attempt to persuade with additional reasons does not help. There is no answer but faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, faith in the Restoration of the gospel, and patience in waiting for answers when the Lord chooses to reveal them.

[@MrVigilant1]

"Knowledge is learned, never told." If you haven't experienced something first hand, you don't know it. If someone convinces you of something, whether it be from a book, news broadcast, professor, doctor..., it is faith. It's important to know that most of what we think we know is only belief. And it's very important to guard who or what you put your faith in.

[@bradensorensen966]

Mormons teaching others about invalidating others. That's truly RICH!

[@helmuthnaumann8521]

Great interview.

[@janetcarlson4923]

As far as the 1st vision goes, I rhink it could be because it depends on the audience. I had a life experience that saved my life. For years only my family knew. Now that I am older, I have started telling it. Sometimes I tell an abrieviated version while sometimes I give moe. I can not give the exact day since I didnt write it down. I can only guess the year . Police often interview witnesses multiple times not because they dont believe them but because sometimes they didnt ask the right questions and get additional information. So I totally understand the diffence versions

[@bumpercoach]

I also had a young experience with doubt. Possibly pre-teen but around that time. I read the same book David Alexander has mentioned from when he was also a young fan of Sherlock holmes. But from considering the shock I felt over such scandalous storytelling about the Mormons I gained from the experience the sense that there never was anyone so good or anything so true that it couldn't be lied about. That's often been a great strength and too many young and old still have a naivete which makes them vulnerable to scammery

[@troyford625]

Scholars with amazing faith. Inspiring interview!

[@danettebennett7100]

Once again, another great podcast. Very insightful and helpful. I just wanted to mention on the subject of mental health and being able to feel the spirit, Jane Clayson addresses this topic in her book.”Silent Souls Weeping”. It is definitely worth reading.

[@raeannhurst1022]

Relentless Repentance!!!🙏🏻👏❤️

[@lisaroper421]

Really good interview!

[@lederhudler]

Dr Harper's discussion of spiritual communication and noise could almost be taught in an Electrical Engineering class. That is exactly the problem one faces in telecommunications, and similar technologies. And most of the methods used to obtain messages in a "noisy" environment relate to "slowing down". Integration methods involve accruing data over time and looking for patterns to emerge. Collision detection and retry methods involve discovering an error and re-attempting the communication again. Sometimes multiple attempts. Some methods require a reasonable guess at which message character was intended - then verifying that the answer is sensible. Phase-lock loops require time to synchronize. Sounds like the Lord is an electrical engineer.

[@ParadiseDestroyed]

This is one of the best interviews in the LDS podcast world. I love it.

[@Owensclaudia-q2y]

I have had enough witness experiences w the 1st vision to know for myself but Matthew Mark Luke & John tell the Christ accpunts differently too. Agreed on History. And truth.

[@Canut0]

👏🙏 great video!

[@scottydangerous]

"By their fruits he shall know them. "

[@sarahgrandy7074]

The thing about Joseph Smith not remembering how old he was. How often do people when they look back and tell a story about a time in their youth have a hard time remembering exactly how old they were?

[@_inveterate]

How old are you?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

That can easily be true with regard to off-the-cuff remarks, when one is recalling something for the first time in years in an impromptu situation. It's ordinarily not something that would apply to a life-changing event that one thinks about often. It definitely wouldn't apply when one has decided to formally give an account that is to be written down. Most people know exactly how old they were when a major world event happened. You'd think a young man like JS would know exactly how old he was when he personally met and saw the creators of the universe. He's supposedly not trying to recall something trivial, like when he first met Wilbur Snott, a kid he played with once in a while.

[@alexanderv7702]

Are some Chyrch employees silent; as their pensions are in jeopardy should they speak out?

[@scottvance74]

Sometimes BYU employees who are close to retirement who have a more nuanced view of the faith stay quiet to be able to retire with benifits. I don't know of reports of other church employees who fit this bill apart from one 70 who died a while back.

[@jeffreyphillips9121]

Fantastic!

[@sethbutler2100]

So as someone who is currently in the midst of a "faith crisis" delving into "anti-mormon" information this video does nothing for me. First I am told that my inability to just be ok with difficult church history is that I might be depressed and that is blocking the spirit, then I am told I might need to repent. Then they say there is too much noise for me to hear the spirit. Maybe there are just things in church history that need addressed directly and not spend an hour and a half talking about how he just thinks slowly about it which I take to mean just avoid it and it will go away. There are too many things in early church history to just think slowly about to let them go away. People like this who have some influence should address them head on, because other people are and they cite their sources and they are not promoting faith.

[@owenarave4229]

I have questions too, for sure. I think any honest person does. I guess it comes down to the source for me. Why should I believe someone on the internet over my own experiences? Or why should I listen to what someone in 2024 says about Joseph Smith when they’ve never met him? Etc etc. In my mind the things I know outweigh the things I don’t. Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, fruits of living the gospel, etc etc. I personally love Nephi’s response where he says that he doesn’t know all things but he knows that God loves his children! That’s how I’ve approached my doubts or questions- hope that helps you too!

[@SnowAngelfish]

Thats not at all how I took what he said. To "slow down" to me mean to not accept what your being fed immediately,, but to look deeper into the source ect.. many times we find later documents to be total fabrications filled with lies by enemies of the church. Basically,, with info that may have important consequences to our faith dont make quick assumptions of it accuracy. Investigate.

[@gloversterling]

You hit it right on the head. How does thinking slowly for someone that has gone through the history help. How does thinking slowly about Mormons belief on The God of the OT as Jesus help me to believe that. Read Exodus, how is that narcissist murdering God Jesus??? Two complete opposite personalties. Jesus was loving, not someone who murdered millions.

[@gloversterling]

Jesus isn’t going to take “his people” on a journey that should have took 3 weeks, take 40 years. Then promise them the promised land flowing with milk and honey. Two of the original, give or take 2.5 million Hebrews he took made it. Joshua and Caleb. All the rest were either murdered or starved to death. Now tell me. How is that Jesus (Jehovah) like the Mormons believe. That’s why people tell Mormons. No we don’t believe in the same Jesus. I never understood that while I was on my mission, but I do now. Just read the Old Testament. The Mormons are wrong about the God of the Old Testament being Jesus.

[@gloversterling]

Do your self a favor and compare that Jesus to the Jesus in the New Testament. You’ll walk away just like I did and realize how wrong you were.

[@rodneyhuckaby8716]

Steven Harper may know some church history, but he is mainly a church apologist. This interview is a master class on how to ignore the difficult and troubling things about the church.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

It's a lesson on how to build more shelves...for people whose shelves are already overloaded. Intellectually, it's a lesson on how to pretend that the begging-the-question/circular reasoning logical fallacy is not something anyone should ever bother worrying about. "Because we know that Joseph Smith was really a prophet, we need to learn how to tune out all the stuff that tries to make us think he wasn't." "The prophet told us that the Lord will never let the prophet lead the church astray...and because we know that this is true, we don't have to worry that maybe the prophet was leading the church astray when he said that." The problem is that the same approach can be used in and for ANY belief system. The Church of Elvis Lives on a UFO can use the same approach.

[@maryannstout7600]

I don’t know about that. He doesn’t sound like any of the church apologists I’ve ever heard talk . I was afraid to watch this episode because I thought it might shake my testimony off its foundation. But then I accidentally watched it late at night. I tried to turn it off but couldn’t. It held my attention and I couldn’t turn it off. I think 🤔 he’s very knowledgeable on the topic but I also feel that he has much wisdom to share. He strengthens my understanding and my testimony.😊

[@SidVranes]

Tell us more or at least tell us where you found your information to make this statement.

[@SnowAngelfish]

What difficult and troubling things? If you can't elaborate then why comment?

[@rodneyhuckaby8716]

@@SidVranes Read my response to the other commenter @SnowAngelfish