What if the Mongol Empire Never Existed? | Alternate History Hub | History Teacher Reacts

[@MrTerry]

Which empire do you think would be most affected if the Mongols didn't exist?

[@sefhammer6276]

Ottomans

[@sefhammer6276]

will you ever react to unit 731 or the tokyo trials?

[@beratcimsir5294]

All of the Islamic world

[@stargazer-elite]

No Russia, nor Ottomans Wait without the Mongolian empire there is no ottomans so MORE ROME WOOOOO GLORY TO ROME

[@henrycrystal9740]

Imagine a peaceful balkans filled with great empires just as strong as western europe

[@rgentry9]

I think when he was saying imagine if Spain or France never formed, he wasn't saying that would have happened without the Mongols. He was saying that the Mongol destruction of some of the eastern European countries like Poland and Bulgaria were roughly equivalent to places like France and Spain not forming.

[@drayreign0391]

Yes that part was in the bit where he said imagine if an alien invasion stopped them, it was a metaphor to compare to what the Mongols did, which I think flew over Mr Terry's head

[@the0ne809]

everything would have changed, even stuff that does not seem to be connected at all. You would have tens of millions of people who stayed alive and each one making their own decisions that could affect the timeline down the road. Maybe the conquest of America would be delayed. Spain kicking out the Muslims would have taken much longer or maybe faster. Maybe different wars about resources would have resulted over time. there are endless timelines.

[@marvelfannumber1]

You seem to have some weird misconceptions about the Abbasids. The Abbasid Caliphate in the 13th Century was not a thriving empire. They only controlled the southern part of Iraq. A hundred years before the Mongols, they had only *just* been able to free themselves from constant domination by Turkic empires, and this brief independence did not result in any kind of expansion for them. The Islamic Golden Age was long gone by 1200. The Abbasids had fragmented and fallen apart already by the 10th Century. Their importance was nominal and symbolic, not political. Also there were Caliphs after the Mongols took Baghdad, the Abbasids fled to Cairo and ruled as (still) nominal Caliphs there, until the Ottomans took Cairo in the 16th Century and made themselves Caliphs. The Caliphate was abolished in 1924, not in the 13th Century lol.

[@rsync9490]

Yeah I noticed that too, "Why does he keep mentioning the Abbasids? They haven't been powerful since like the 10th century." I play too much crusader kings that I know this information for some reason.

[@belishp]

sorry Mr. Terry, I have to agree with AHH about the Japanese. There was a cultural shift in the caste system in Japan after fighting off the mainland invasion, It also changed the was the samurai swords were being built. Japan and China would probably have had more cross-cultural sharing if not for Yuan dynasty.

[@Nostripe361]

True. The original Japanese culture was more bureaucratic nobility than what it became later. Granted it could still happen as part of the reason the samurai clans rised up was because apathy and corruption in the Heian period but could see their faction having less power without the victory over the two invasions from the mainland

[@信衞門]

The descent into samurai rule had already been established after the fall of the Taira and the establishment of the Kamakura Shogunate. The Kamakura would've lasted longer, but whoever would've replaced them would've been an another shogunate.

[@jamesmaclennan4525]

I would argue that a resurgent Song with a Militant bent could have organised a similar type of invasion and the Kamikaze could still have happened.

[@Geo-Global-oz5kl]

@@信衞門 Prove before saying.

[@steve8610]

29:00 I have to disagree with that sir, feudalism started disappearing during the Renaissance period, which took off in the 14th century. It wasn't replaced by capitalism (which itself was a product of mercantilism + industrialism), it was replaced by absolutism, which itself was in full effect during the time of the French Revolution.

[@daniyarzhanbolatov4594]

Absolutism is about the political system, while capitalism is more economics relationship

[@davea6314]

If Genghis Kahn had permanently conquered the entire world then I might be teaching Mongolian poetry, a job which would have its PROSE and KHANS. 😜

[@ChatGPT_ChatbotTest]

I want to see an alt-hist, no matter how unrealistic, where the Mongols conquer the entire world and its effects on history

[@emeraldfinder5]

@@ChatGPT_ChatbotTest at that point, it’s just a fantasy book. No reason you can’t try writing it yourself

[@ChatGPT_ChatbotTest]

@@emeraldfinder5 I'm too lazy to

[@TheStickCollector]

Would be my excuse to learn it. Always wanted to write the traditional script.

[@LJ-pi6np]

But centuries of experience showed that Mogol and steppe hordes themselves could never permanently conquer anything.

[@herzimhimmel]

Finally, Mr. Terry talks about my home country of Bulgaria, not like most of the times when it is mentioned, he just poses to say something, but never does... This makes me happy!!!

[@akshit318]

By this time abbasids were reduced to a city state and the role of caliphs to nothing more than a ceremonial rule by the time Mongols invaded

[@joshcain1032]

By the 13th century, the Abbasids were all but dead. The caliphate still existed in name, but in reality the caliph's authority was confined to the city of Baghdad and little else. In fact, the caliph was little more than a frequently-replaced puppet of various Turkish warlords who were constantly fighting each other, reducing Iraq to a wasteland. It was in no place to fill the vacuum left by the absence of the Ottomans.

[@BarlasofIndus]

Just like how east rome got limited to constantinople yet held great respect from orthodox. And how mughals(one of Mongol descendants in India) got limited to Delhi and still held such respect that people started revolution in their names

[@andrewdrennan9436]

Love your channel and AHH for keeping the thought processes and reflection going.

[@avandorhu-3389]

As someone from Hungary, when I watched the original video it hit home pretty hard. I do kinda wish we weren't just trampled to the ground by the mongols like that. But at the same time, if what you say about technology not advancing as much because of the changes to the silk road would indeed be the reality in that timeline, then I'm not so sure. I mean of course I'd love to see a united strong Hungarian kingdom, but I also like my technological progress in my timelines. What a tough choice indeed...

[@Jan_Koopman]

"Idővonalaim"? Többes szám? Vagy egy időutazó vagy olyan?

[@avandorhu-3389]

@@Jan_Koopman Azért mondtam úgy mert több mint egy alternate history videót szoktam nézni.

[@Jan_Koopman]

@@avandorhu-3389, oh... az lógikus...

[@RadekLazok]

I don't speak hungarian but my grandfather is Hungarian

[@K.Pershing]

Culturally the abbasids were still in a golden age but politically and diplomatically they were at their worst, they had been since the Buyyids effectively turned the caliph into their puppet, i dont think they were capable of filling the ottoman sized void, maybe the Mamluks could, but they definetly wouldnt achieve the same effect or conquering Constantinople and expanding into Europe, simply because that wasnt their goal

[@swag31556]

26:25 ik I've said it before but I'll say it again, the more u add to a video the better, hell if this video was 74 minutes instead of 37 I would have just been twice as excited

[@Ali-bu6lo]

Actually the caliphate continued after the sack of Baghdad, a bunch of Abbasids fled to Egypt and four years after the fall of Baghdad continued the Abbasid caliphate in Egypt under Mamluk protection, in 1517 the Ottomans took over Egypt and also the title of the caliphate. They hold the title until Ataturk abolished it a few years after the establishment of the Ottoman empire.

[@TangomanX2008]

One thing to mention is that, in addition to trading goods with China, China would often hire Mongols as mercenaries. So Chinese Generals read Sun Tzu, but when it hit the fan, they would hire them selves some Mongols.

[@migga86]

31:53 a shame Mr. Terry didn't realize the imternet meme of Grzegorz Brzeczyszczykiewicz. That was a name used in some old movie, where a spy was captured by Nazis and he said that name so the police had trouble writing his name down.

[@TheClarky2000]

Have you thought about reacting to the Tucker Carlson and Putin interview where Putin talks about Russian history for half an hour at the beginning?

[@oliversherman2414]

I guess every alternate timeline has its pros and Khan's

[@jakubport7361]

Hey Terry, thank you for this video, I love your uploads. Have you ever thought about doing video on the Putin Tucker interview? Especially the part where Putin talks about the history of Russia?

[@robertmiller9735]

I wouldn't put Caesar in the same category as Temujin. The things he achieved were going to happen anyway. Doesn't mean removing him leaves no mark on history, but not on the same scale.

[@Shashu_the_little_Voidling]

9:17 It's a Sokka hat!

[@szariq7338]

I could see Poland in this timeline colonising the Russian kingdoms in similar fashion, that the West colonised other parts of the world, but due to more similarities I can believe in Poland actually assimilating Russia up to Urals or Volga.

[@cervanntes]

I agree that this would have been a distinct possibility, although not sure if it would be Poland, Lithuania, or the combined Commonwealth of the two. I can also see a scenario where Sweden or some other Baltic nation conquered Novgorod instead of Muscovy.

[@viikmaqic]

@@cervanntes Sweden could have done it, short term. in 1600 the swedish empire (EMPIRE including Finland, estonia, karelia, some parts of northern germany) had 1,300,000 inhabitants. Thats extremely low population. Sure, they had an amazing army. But that would eventually not be able to hold that territory

[@cervanntes]

​@@viikmaqic Yeah, that's why I mentioned them. Sweden was a major player in Russia's Time of Troubles as part of the Polish-Swedish War during the first decade of the 17th century. While the Russians supported the Swedes at the beginning of that conflict, King Sigismund III Vasa of Poland (and deposed king of Sweden) briefly had control of Moscow and the tsardom. Sweden, in the meantime, occupied a significant portion of Russia's Baltic holdings in Novgorod and the Russians even offered to make Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden their ruler rather than risk Sigismund III Vasa solidifying his control. If not for the uprising led by Minin and Pozharsky that both recaptured Moscow and negotiated a peace with Sweden, there might never have been a Romanov line and Poland and/or Sweden may well have continued to control Moscow and/or Novgorod respectively. If both of those countries came close to ruling parts or even all of Russia during a period when Russia was a young empire, I can't imagine how things would have played out if the Mongol invasions had never happened except to think that there would have been much less resistance to Polish and Swedish expansion into those areas.

[@sircatangry5864]

Colonize? I doubt. Without mongols, Halych would have formed powerful kingdom, to hold off any invasion, and propably invade themselves.

[@metanoian965]

@@viikmaqic Swedes were strongly against expansionist fancies of their rulers. Forced conscription of peasant sons was necessary. The kingdom was bankrupted and needed to conquer lands to acquire recourses. Polish National Treasure can be seen in Swedish Museums. "There is no thief like a Swedish thief." Fins were against serving their Swedish lords. Fin and German peasant conscripts were killed in heaps. The lol _ 'emperor'' - lol relied on European mercenaries whom he did not pay resulting in massive abuse of everyplace they passed through.

[@Bulldogg6404]

25:15 > shows Novgorod character, coat of arms I'm reminded of the Missouri State flag, due to the two morne bears on either side

[@АлексейТабаков-ы8в]

It's funny a little bit, that British Empire was actually bigger than Mongol Empire (but the latter was entirely land empire, that was fully connected, so I can understand that point). Also Abbasids wouldn't conquer Constantinople and be like the replacement for the Ottoman Empire, because we already have Sultanate of Rum in Anatolia by that point in time (but who knows if it would expanded in the Balkans or not in the long run).

[@sefhammer6276]

He said largest empire that was fully connected. Which it was

[@moogiibat5845]

British empire was great in terms of technological advancement, navy and administration, but in term of their territory half the territory includes the whole of Canada and Australia that is mostly empty space, even to this day

[@occam7382]

@@moogiibat5845, "half the territory includes the whole of Canada and Australia that is mostly empty space, even to this day" Then what the hell was the Mongol Empire? A bunch of its territory was the famously sparsely-populated Eurasian Steppe.

[@moogiibat5845]

​@@occam7382 The open steppe is filled with Cumans, Kipchaks, Pecheneg, Tatars, Manavs, Bashkirs, Nogais, Kazakhs and other nomadic groups who were all more of a threat than the settled empires because they were almost no different from the Mongols, The Genghis khan was over his 40s when first fought non nomadic people, he spent more time fighting and subjugating other nomads then conquering settled empires. When you say the steppes are empty, all I see is a man who don't know what he is talking about it.

[@occam7382]

@@moogiibat5845. I never said the steppes were empty. That is a lie. I said the steppes were sparsely-populated. Because they were sparsely populated. In some places they're still sparsely-populated. I just don't get what you're trying to say when you knock the British for controlling Canada and Australia, because the Mongols controlled territory that wasn't far off from them in terms of that.

[@SeikhSayedAaman-qm6fx]

Actually Mughals were from central Asia. Bubur was from Samarkand and due to conquest of his born land he was invited to kabul for fighting and again he was called in India to fight the lodhi Dynasty of Delhi sultanate and defeating the lodhi he decided to stay in India and making the Mughal Empire

[@BarlasofIndus]

And he was a direct descendant of Genghis khan's son chagatai.

[@by-dilfd]

In fact, such regions as North-Eastern Rus' and Transoxiana, which had been raped by the Mongols, not only recovered and even became richer than before during the Pax Mongolica, but also prospered very much for a short period after the collapse of this world-system. Dmitry Donskoy went to Kulikovo Field with an army equipped with the best armor in Europe at that time. Samarkand under Tamerlane and his descendants was a beautiful and rich city, and under the grandson of Emir Timur, Ulugbek, they even built an observatory there and doubted the infallibility of the Koran. But you know, when the climate deteriorates so much that recently the richest fields are now barren, and all those goods that you transported along your routes for centuries are now carried by Europeans across the seas and oceans - it is difficult to remain a center of prosperity and well-being

[@brian554xx]

Do a video of if Alternate History Hub never existed.

[@Xayumcl]

Terry what if you made your own alternate history video

[@MrTerry]

🤔

[@UurdChuluutNegen]

When we talk about Mongol Empire, westerners always forget how Chingis made pheasants life easier, he made the tax so low. If they were high it's due to local governor's corruption and it's usually the same race as that place not some Mongol. And also since it was first free trade zone and the largest as of today the military operation was equal to US. For example, general Mukhulai could be operating several military projects all over the Europe and Asia and travel deploy so fast into the different places. And ambassador is Mongol word. We took the diplomacy into the next level, by creating multinational empire that allows genuinity of people, merit system work in relation to acquiring high positions.

[@chasonbarnard3596]

There were no caliphs after the Mongols. Almohad caliphate lol

[@marvelfannumber1]

Or you know...the Ottoman Caliphate lol

[@Alex-yf4zi]

​@@marvelfannumber1 i keep Forgeting that was a thing

[@Bungolsikuya]

The mongol empire is a very important part of our history but knowone ever realy new about it

[@metanoian965]

it is important in that it shows how stupid and gullible and unthinking the average West fools really are such lazy immature adults? preferring BS to doing the math and crunching numbers

[@caim3465]

Samarkand is a city in Uzbekistan, I believe.

[@ShantanuShinde1]

Sultanate of Rum would have been the most likely replacement for Ottomans. Without Mongols, they may even have conquered Balkans before Ottomans did in our timeline

[@occam7382]

Assuming the Bulgars don't end that little project before it could begin.

[@BarlasofIndus]

Don't think so,rum wouldn't have lasted much

[@Bulldogg6404]

In a few decades or so, we might see a video made about "what if covid never happened"

[@soultrax101]

I'm sure you've seen plenty of these comments at this point, but... the Abbasids were far from relevant by the time the Mongols invaded. In fact, they stopped really being important by the first crusade. There's a reason you hear about leaders like Saladin during the Crusades, but not the Caliph; the Seljuk invasion had already wrecked the Abbasids already waning power about 200 years before Baghdad was sacked. He didn't really go into it during the video, but that's why the Sacking of Baghdad didn't end the Islamic Golden age. The seat of power and culture had spread to other cities like Cairo, Cordoba and those Persian silk road cities like Merv.

[@FNA27601]

Baghdad by then was way out of its prime yeah but it was probably still the greatest city of its time and the center of knowledge of the islamic world and arguably the entire world.

[@steveo9683]

What about gunpowder in Europe

[@paulroese1376]

Why did the Mongols forget or discard any higher education they might have known during their "empire" period after its collapse? we know especially as time went on the Mongols abandoned gunpowder, advanced medical practice, scientific research, mathematics which could have been and were useful during their empire. name 3 things that would be unknown but for Mongol aggression? why were the Mongols unable to reboot their empire after it fall if they were so smart and able?

[@rznkiller7723]

I'm wondering if the Mongols invasions in Eastern Europe benefit the Holy Roman Empire a little bit. The Mongols crushed much of the Kingdoms and Principauties in Eastern Europe. If they didn't invade, there is a chance that Hungary and/or Poland could've become much stronger. The HRE could have been in competiton in the East and in the West (France). The great winner could be the later in that game of influence since the HRE would be onligated to split its forces along the borders.

[@cpMetis]

You could also argue that it would be *good* for the HRE, since it would introduce much more easily recognizable threats, possibly encouraging centralization.

[@thedragonage3033]

I know that the Abbasid caliphate was still the caliph in the twelve hundreds, and I’m not amazing at Islamic history, but didn’t the Abbasids empire fall in like the nine hundreds. Idk I’m probably just being stupid.

[@FNA27601]

Yeah the late 900's but they had a resurgence prior to the Mongol invasion and were on the rise.

[@thedragonage3033]

⁠@@FNA27601that’s true, but I specifically meant that Mr. Terry kept talking about the Abbasid caliphate as if it was a strong as it was in the 700s and 800s. The Abbasids might have had a resurgence, but they wouldn’t take over Constantinople like the ottomans.

[@adamlubben2504]

I still say this is all ridiculous, becuase we'd just get Jamulkha would have had a mongol horde and would be ghengis khan. He was basically already there.

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

Glad I saw this after watching Cody's original video because I had similar misgivings about the demise of Ottomans without a replacement. Esp., while being overly optimistic about other burgeoning nations in the region. The simple fact that the areas surrounding Persia was a hub of scholarly pursuits and housed some of the largest cities in the world at the time, means they would likely have prospered. Add to this the proximity to the old silk road, it is potentially likely that the Central Asia might have become a technological super power, albeit delayed in comparison to today. Would also depend if the black plague still hit them too. Perhaps the Turks might have still rose up, over time, because they were fairly warlike having been steppe nomads themselves. And who knows, we know that scholars don't tend to breed, as much, so the Turks might have outbred the Persians. Side note, I cannot help but think the 'Rus' would have been more powerful and might have pushed West instead of East had Kiev held sway. Catholic Orthodox might have become the dominant religion of Europe.

[@aurthurpendragon1015]

My opinion on people like Ghengis Kahn and Alexander the Great is that it's difficult for me to consider the mto be "evil" because they were simply products of their time. Morality is based on culture and time period, not some kind of arrogant universal standard, and what they did was normal for their time. Although less so for Ghengis, because of the thing about spreadin gthe black plague. Even given these standards, its' hard to justify that, with the only saving grace being I don't think they intended to do that.

[@dominicanemperor28]

I know right? It's like saying that by today's standards, Lincoln was a white supremacist, because he didn't want to outright abolish slavery, but prevent it's expansion.

[@sergimgebrishvili6235]

Even for medival standards it is hard to defend Genghis because there's not many people that killed 75 percent of whole kingdom and while sacking defeated citys was comon rising them to the ground and killing whole populations weren't common at all

[@marsballuirus3641]

Lol no, the Abbasids couldn’t have made a comeback like you said in this video they would’ve probably been conquered by the Khwarazmians

[@maracrochet]

❤ Mongolia had a marriage agreement with the Chinese emperors ❤

[@charlesmaurer6214]

Wouldn't have presured Rome with the Germantic tribes, no unified China until much later if ever. Tibet still a major power. Japan's rise in China less opposed and perhaps Japan would not have even needed to bomb pearl. India and Tibet likely never fallen under others and global powers today. With Rome falling later hard to say how europe would shake out. Islam would lack the dark ages to expand from.

[@migga86]

Funny, but totally unbased assumption around 16:00 : The Voynich manuscript originated in one of the razed cities, most probably Isfahan. It is one of the books where we are missing a translation to which offers a part of botanical and astrological studies considered way ahead of its time.

[@alehaim]

The Kyivan Rus had been built on kings conquering lands, followed by succession being always a big battle royale basically based on the Kings and Generals summary of this realm's history, as the Rus succession law awarded lands to oldest/most senior member of the family. The Kyivan Rus growing so large as it did and staying together under strong leaders for so long was honestly a miracle as it was not possible for every single heir to be a miltiary strongman able to reign in the princes and assert some semblance of centralized authority. As such by the time of the Mongol invasion the Kyivan Rus were able to unite against an outside enemy with the Mongols being just such an overwhelmingly powerful military force that the Rus princes who usually were fighting each other were unable to mount a capable defense as niether did the united realms of Poland or Hungary. It would honestly continue to remain stagnant internally being more busy fighting itself, nad with enough time the rise of outside powers like Sweden or Poland might force it to adapt or break apart eventually

[@sircatangry5864]

Some principalities like Halych or Volhynia were as powerful as other kingdoms in Europe.

[@johnnamorton6744]

Baghdad was at this time incredably weak. The seige wasn't that long as I recall. The Caliph thought that the whole nation would rise to his defense and they sent nothing. Islam did so much better without a Caliph than with one. Its doubled in size and has become close to the top in world religions One in five people are of some sect in the Islamic faith.

[@UnderMakerGaming]

Christians would be rejoicing

[@emeraldfinder5]

wait, why?

[@ajjameson154]

Weee.

[@sambishop9856]

Mr. Terry, I know you don't often get into politics beyond just what politics are inherent in any given historicial subject, but I just want you to know that the OP of this video Alt History Hub has said some really bigoted stuff about minorities and LGBT+ people on his twitter and has otherwise expressed some pretty far-right views. I just felt like you should know what kind of people you're showcasing in your reaction vids. It can be kinda alienating to long-term fans of yours, like myself, who are part of the communities this creator has issues with. Anyway, just felt you should know in case you were unaware, much love.

[@TheKingOcelot]

Can you give an example? I left Twitter a while ago so I haven't seen much

[@emeraldfinder5]

I mean, you need to be able to separate art from the artist

[@cpMetis]

Like what, exactly? I can't recall Cody ever saying something "far-right" unless it's pretty explicitly to shit on it, or part of some meme.

[@coleLoGhrin]

1OOTH VIEWER!!!

[@LJ-pi6np]

That was wild. Like listening to a guy w a few too many beers at happy hour improvise tipsy scenarios. Black plague due to Mongols silly, timing would just be a little different wo them. I think the piece was addicted to great man and great poltical and military empire type history. IIRC, Abbasid caliphate already was already moving to figurehead status politically and militarily, but retained v important cultural and moral inflience. I think cultural influence of Mongol invasions more important than impact on individual poltical entities. Was it all due to one guy? Hordes from Mongolia and steppes invaded other parts of the world periodically since forever. Gengis Khan lived when Mobgols military superiority was particularly pronounced. Mr Terry was right to disagree with much of it. I disagree with much more.

[@metanoian965]

you've Nothing to say. Say how you can prove it existed. Prove it existed. There is O to show it all happened for all that BS history.