WARNING : "High signal connection" Subs can damage your amp.

[@theaudiophilebarista2424]

Been playing a REL high level for over 15 years now. Zero problems.

[@thwickman]

You would think he would remove this video huh?

[@mikemcguinness1304]

The guy talks shit

[@mikemcguinness1304]

Rel came from Richard lord .RICHARD .EDWARD.LORD . ... British...and he knew what he was doing

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

IN CLOSING : Thank you REL for explaining how their Subs deal with the anomalies usually associated with hooking directly on to an amplifiers output to get the signal to the sub. In certain installs, there simply is no better way to do this. I certainly appreciate the time REL took to explain what special features thier subs have that directly combat the known issues of such a connection method. Furthermore I learned that REL is a 100% USA owned and operated company consisting of roughly a dozen people working in Berkeley, CA... You know... Amoeba Records. Cool city, amazing food, and hip, smart, progressive humans.... Rock on REL !!

[@pa1nn11]

REL says the red and yellow wire should go to plus and plus on right and left channel of the amplifier and ground that means black should be disconnected. Does it change anything in your theory? :)

[@petergreen8101]

Rel definitely says that their black wire should be connected to the black (ground) terminal of the amp. This is so whether using single or stereo subs. I do not have a sub, but I have long been sceptical about Rel's connection method. But it would be interesting to hear Mike say what to do if you are running an integrated - apart from get a pre-amp!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Filip. You've been corrected. Why would black even be there if it was not to be connected? Just saying Black (Ground) is erroneous. As it's not that way on ANY differential piece. So it's a totally ignorant thing to say from a big manufacturer. This is one small example of why the mainstream of our industry is a joke these days. On a receiver you will have sub outs at least a stereo pair, or it's a preamp output which is the same thing just not crossed over. As far as integrated is concerned if you have no outputs for sub or RCA. You can either get another one that does, or you can sacrifice an analog input and have it wired up as an output instead. This is a modification that would void factory warranty

[@pa1nn11]

@@OCDHIFiGuy You are right on this one, all of them should higlhy warn people that own amps with this kind of architecture design. And there is this urban legend that high level input will be "faster" or more responsive signal method which in my head might be a complete BS. Either way a customer with such a amp should also look into connection methods before burning his precious gear, it takes 30s to find tutorial on YT. Just saying :) Best regards

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@pa1nn11 Yeah, Its true but I think this is something a little above most users pay grade to completely understand. Usually its the people who just buy their first differential amp that take the hit.

[@michaeldain]

Love your insight. I also spoke to the amp manufacturer, and disconnected the black on the REL wires. No hum. Works great for the past year. For the minimalist without a line level output it seems fine for a balanced amp. Also with no preamp and just a dac. Love the channel.

[@jochvomberg5541]

The same problem with my KEF 12b sub,with high signal connection method makes awfoul noise and the fuse of my Nubert nupower A was blowen.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Ouch... I'll dig deeper on this now Im very intrigued who invented this connection manner ?

[@cconnon1912]

The Sub still connects directly so the hi signal helps it match the volume of output so the sub isn’t too booming or too quiet for any volume level . It is not using that signal to drive the sub. Home theatre is more important so user doesn’t have more than one volume control. I have had several subs and the REL is the best I have owned. I am not an expert and you may have a point on the black wire being different on some high end audio equipment spreading fear is needless.

[@charleskatz2606]

So what is it an issue where the impedance load is changed?Also not sure if your saying that it will not happen with a a fully differential circuit like one that uses a PGM(?) to create XLR's?I know people like Paul McGowan are hot on this idea that the REL sounds better because it "sees" the whole waveform but like you said it's resistors are just gonna low pass it so how does that influence the sound below the low pass?It never made sense.That said the REL subs seem to be best bet compared with SVS, Velodyne (who?), maybe JL Labs are in there league.I wish more Pre's has dual variable out's like my trusty old Adcom two outs and one EPL.The CJ's and Rogue's have a External Processor Loop and I'll be damned if I can figure out difference between that and a tape monitor look so if you know the answer to that one Obi-Wan please (low) pass it on

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Hey CK, what they do is make the input impedance of the plate amp very high so it does not give any extra load to the amp. Im guessing there is a small delay and most likely some signal degradation. People blow amp fuses all the time with this type of a setup also, theres a fault in that the mains are not high passed. Its a tape loop out..

[@edgarmisplaced7924]

I've used REL's for over 20 years with nary a hitch! They are damn good from my perspective! I don't have balanced amps.

[@Kibwunga]

I’m an electronic technician for over 39 years. This guy has has a profound lack of understanding. High level inputs are pass throughs. No it does not use the sub amp for driving your speakers. You clearly missed the topic of faradays law of induction. :)

[@Daniel-hk3ru]

I let the Black Ground Wire float and have been quite impressed with the performance of the REL Subs. Enjoy your videos and enjoyed when you and Jay got together to talk High-End Audio. You are much needed in this wild world of Audio OCD Hi-Fi Guy !

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

FINAL QUESTIONS IN RETROSPECT FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY > So we can close this with an official response I will go ahead and pose a few questions to the manufacturer, as I still feel this is a shifty connection method and I'm hoping for clarity, so why dont we let the experts weigh in., if they are so inclined. My questions are as follows. If we connect a plate amp input to the output of the main speaker amplifier to derive our low freq signal, we are in fact running the low frequencies through a secondary amplifier stage as well as DSP and this is all something that the mains will completely bypass. My guess would be that there is a very small delay and/or loss from introducing a second amplifier stage plus DSP for the low frequencies as compared to the main channels is this not true ? If in fact we connect as laid out above, its clear to me that the full range signal going to the plate amp will be low pass filtered at the plate or DSP. Since the mains will not encounter this therefore are not being high pass filtered at the same spot the lows are being low passed, then I'm also guessing that the same low frequencies will be reproduced in the main channels (assuming they have the ability), yet the same frequencies in the mains will not be filtered therefore causing possible phase anomalies and or cancellations, is this not true ? If I understand correctly amplifiers are like high pass filters in that they inevitably roll off at some point and near the rolloff point there will be phase shift and in this case "leading " phase, then if we put 2 of these high pass filters in series we get double the phase lead, meaning in some situations this method could help the sub match better in certain rigs by using this connection to receive phase advance. Not very accurate though. You mention in the manual that the ground wire can be left hanging loose when hooking up to a balanced amplifier, This can only work if the powered sub is grounded through the AC power cord somewhere close to the same point as the main rig AC ground. So I guess no luck if in Japan where there is no third wire AC ground. Plus, do we want a signal ground to ride on the same path as the amplifier power supply return ground path? Thanks so much manufacturer if you chose to reply, these are the main reasons why I think its a goofy way to feed a sub signal. Though admittedly I dont completely understand sub integration in a totally accurate manner yet. So its just a gut feeling. There were others here that replied that do not understand how this works as well, so clearing this up will go a long way I feel... Thanks again..

[@RELAcoustics]

Thanks for sharing these questions. We're putting together detailed answers and will reply as soon as possible.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks Guys, much appreciated !

[@RELAcoustics]

We’ve included your questions in our response to help make the conversation easier to follow. Hopefully this clears everything up for you. Have a great day. If we connect a plate amp input to the output of the main speaker amplifier to derive our low freq signal, we are in fact running the low frequencies through a secondary amplifier stage as well as DSP and this is all something that the mains will completely bypass. My guess would be that there is a very small delay and/or loss from introducing a second amplifier stage plus DSP for the low frequencies as compared to the main channels is this not true ? Our subwoofers are designed with a completely analog filter, meaning that there is zero DSP (digital signal processing) present. Because of this analog design we are able to develop incredibly fast filters, and when paired with our ultra-lightweight drivers, results in very minimal delay between the main loudspeakers and the subwoofer. Any measurable delay would not be enough to be at all audible to the human ear. This is a very important part of the REL design, since an extremely fast subwoofer is essential to producing accurate sub-bass that blends transparently with the main loudspeakers. If in fact we connect as laid out above, its clear to me that the full range signal going to the plate amp will be low pass filtered at the plate or DSP. Since the mains will not encounter this therefore are not being high pass filtered at the same spot the lows are being low passed, then I'm also guessing that the same low frequencies will be reproduced in the main channels (assuming they have the ability), yet the same frequencies in the mains will not be filtered therefore causing possible phase anomalies and or cancellations, is this not true ? If I understand correctly amplifiers are like high pass filters in that they inevitably roll off at some point and near the rolloff point there will be phase shift and in this case "leading " phase, then if we put 2 of these high pass filters in series we get double the phase lead, meaning in some situations this method could help the sub match better in certain rigs by using this connection to receive phase advance. Not very accurate though. Our philosophy at REL is to provide complimentary sub-bass reinforcement to what your main loudspeakers are producing in your room. When tuning a REL, the idea is to set the crossover control to a point where the subwoofer is picking up where your loudspeakers naturally roll off in low-end extension. For example, say that you have a pair of loudspeakers that can accurately reproduce sound down to approximately 45Hz. The subwoofer’s crossover should then be set just below that point, so that it is reinforcing the low end while overlapping with the mains minimally. Of course, the loudspeaker’s low-end roll off and the subwoofer’s low-pass filter will overlap slightly, since there is a slope to both of them. This is why adjusting the phase of the subwoofer, relative to your loudspeakers, is essential. REL subwoofers provide a phase toggle switch, with options of 0 and 180 degrees out of phase. Finer phase adjustments should be performed by physically moving the subwoofer forward and back relative to your mains. When set up and tuned correctly, the subwoofer will be in phase with your main loudspeakers, and the frequency response between the two will be relatively flat from 20kHz to wherever the subwoofer’s low end naturally rolls off in your room (approximately 20Hz). You mention in the manual that the ground wire can be left hanging loose when hooking up to a balanced amplifier, This can only work if the powered sub is grounded through the AC power cord somewhere close to the same point as the main rig AC ground. So I guess no luck if in Japan where there is no third wire AC ground. Plus, do we want a signal ground to ride on the same path as the amplifier power supply return ground path? The fact of the matter is when connecting a REL high level, the REL needs to be connected to the power amplifier’s ground reference. This connection is not determined by the REL, but by the ground scheme of the power amp. This is why we have come up with various ways to make this connection. In our experience, unifying an amplifiers ground reference with earth ground does not induce either audible or reliability problems. In some cases, the ground reference is earth, so there is indeed no need to connect the BLACK wire of the REL high level cable. This is because the REL uses earth ground internally so both the components get their grounds unified through the wall sockets. There are some cases where the power amp is not connected to earth ground because it is a double insulated design. In this case there needs to be a physical connection by either the BLACK wire of the REL high level cable or a collar of an RCA which will unify the system’s signal ground with the REL’s ground. Traditionally the return amplifier terminal (negative terminal) on a power amp was the reference ground, but this is no longer always true when we talk about Class D or differential amplifier designs. With Class D amplifier designs, sometimes the negative amplifier terminal is elevated by tens of volts of DC and with differential designs this terminal is active in driving the speaker. In both of these cases simply connecting the BLACK wire of the high level cable to this terminal is not possible so alternative connections to reference ground need to be found.

[@drewrobertson6286]

I’m an aircraft electrician by trade for the last 25 years... and let me tell you a fun or not so fun fact... the wiring is reversed on an aircraft compared to housing wire, Black is ground & White is current... & every time I gotta work on my housing electrical (like adding a simple attic fan on its own circuit) I gotta take a step back & breath... & what’s worse is that I’m a lefty ... so when it comes to rigging or modding my stereo equipment, I always get the owners manual & look to see what colour is signal, ground, current, LCR etc on the WD’s, cuz I don’t wanna blow anything up & waste my hard earned money. Your vid reminded me of my dilemma, sorry for my rant... you would think that it would be universal... 🍻

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

LOL< a smile started slowly growing on my face as I read that ... I thought I had it bad.. lol. thats crazy ! Thanks for the post Drew !

[@jeffreywolff5899]

So does this mean I can't use Rowland amps on my Adam audio speakers? The woofer is internaly amped just like a REL would be but it only has one set of binding posts.Woofer x s over at 800 Hz. I also have Vandersteen on my poissible upgrade list but guessing this would not be safe either. Not sure how you can say character of amp below 80 Hz is meaningless. I auditioned Vandersteens a while back first with a Cary Audio tube amp. he bass was MIA and mushy. Changed to a BAST SS amp and bam it had real well defined bass. Copuld not believe the Cary was so weak even when pushing essentialy zero current. BUT IT WAS. Would apreciate your thoughts. Was thinking of getting the new 735 monos but I guess I can't with my Adams.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Hey Jeff, you are an existing client of mine right ? If not, youve got a twin. Im not sure about ADAM or Vandys all I know is Rowland amps are truly balanced which is a big advantage sonically, and it means the black post is negative signal, not ground. in other words the movement of the woofer is controlled both ways in a push -pull type config with balanced. It will be simple for me to get you the answer. Im not sure what context I said something about below 80, but my experience is very much that every amp matters. I dont like plate amps per se, because I like to use Class A solid state amps on my subs. I do not like CaryAmps and have not owned any so Im not sure but Ive got a pair of NAT Monos that are 125W and use 805 tubes in class A that I will sell for $4500 the pair which is a crazy value, and the 735 is not an amp model to be tossed around in convo so much as its a very specialized amp for a very specialized rig. Itis the last amp people buy and it represents more than I can explain here. if you would like to know more just get in contact. 735 and Cary should not even be used ion the same convo.. lol just get in touch Jeff, I'll get you the answers.. If you are truly considering 735, they are the type of amp you make other things work around. justholler and we can talk.. Cheers !

[@danielesbordone1871]

Piggy banking from one amp to another sounds like the boosters that were used in car audio back in the day.

[@sidvicious3129]

I have owned Rel before without any problems. If you follow Rel’s instructions you won’t have any problems. Richard Vandersteen also believes in running both their subs and sub power speakers from the amp, but they use a high pass filter, M5-HPB from your single ended or xlr from the amp and run it into your preamp. You set the cross over depending on input impedance of your amp through dip switches. This is a safer way and probably more precise, but Rel’s way works fine. Both Vandersteen and Rel way have had no adverse effects on amps if you follow their instructions. I have also had a Belles 20 tube preamp, which allowed me to use a sub through line level, so I have tried this multiple ways and the results were the same, no blown amps.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Yes, because you read the instructions .. not many people do, and there are certain amp types this hookup will toast if you hook the black wire up. REL has caused Jeff Rowland many repairs on customer amps. Because Jeffs amps are truly balanced amps ... gotta read directions and follow them closely, but Ill take line level over speaker ;level every time .

[@michaelcampbell9459]

I have fast dual Vandersteen 2Wq subs (fixed 80hz/6db) that match great with my maggies and are wired spkr level from amp as that is the only input they have, with the passive M5-HP xovers between pre and amp but got tired of dealing with battery bias and dip switches so am currently trying out a miniDSP Studio (digital outs only) for HP filters and room correction strictly in the digital domain before my DAC/pre/amp. I have my SMSL D9 digital WAV files player going to a reclocker and then the miniDSP Studio to the rest of rig. Vandersteen is all about time and phase coherence and feels that spkr hi level amp signal sampling sub connection is best for 2 ch stereo music and also makes a line level V version of that same sub for HT enthusiasts. I use the more musical 2Wq spkr level setup as music is 95% but like a lot of guys my 2 ch is also my HT and if rig is optimal for 2 ch then it is good enough for HT, especially since there is music in most soundtracks as well, why would you want to pollute the music in a soundtrack just to make the house shake and potentially damage your hearing. My current amp is class D and not differential. I may try the REL or servo Rythmik or GR Research kit at some point but not in a rush to abandon the excellent Vandies that go down to 20hz.

[@sidvicious3129]

@@michaelcampbell9459 Well I had a very interesting thing happen some time ago, I upgraded 2ce Signature two to Vandersteen Quatros and I had an Audio Research D450-class D, an 8000-dollar amp pop and smoke, and bam it took the built-in subs of the Vandersteen Quatros with them. I also got tired of the crossover with the dip switches and having to have that battery resoldered. This could have started a fire and what's funny is my wife said she heard the light low-level pop, pop, pop through the night. My 2wq while okay, was never able to achieve the bass that I wanted in my particular room and I checked this over with another audiophile who verified my findings. After the incident with the amp, I packed the amp up and it was sent back to AR, along with the speakers and crossovers and I traded for other stuff, including a pair of SimAudio Moon 400M monoblocs. I have never been happier. I compensated with the DS450 and it never produced the bass and treble response of the SimAudio. The rest of my Audio Research stuff is sound, but I also had an issue with a VT100 MkIII, which was in the shop at least three times. I love AR, but will not buy their amps again and for now, I'm taking hold with Vandersteen as I was always left wanting something else. The Moons have scratched that itch with power to spare and I currently have a pair of B&W speakers with an SVS SB4000, which gives me more bass than both of the Vandersteen's with fewer effort crossovers and all. I set my cross-over point at 80hz and worked my way down until I got the blend that I wanted. I'm able to change all kinds of parameters with my phone app and save presets for different types of music. I will be adding another SB4000 and I was totally caught off guard because SVS was never on my radar and I hated the sound of both B&W together with SVS driven by McIntosh components. I guess the time was never spent to get the blend and the matching correct. My next speaker will be Sonus Faber Olympica III Nova. The two big things that I took away from this experience are never a loyalist to a manufacturer as Mikey has said, be willing to walk away when a manufacturer doesn't live up to your expectations and there is more than one way to design a speaker and Richard Vandersteen's way is definitely not the only way. I'm back to doing more listening than tweaking.

[@michaelcampbell9459]

@@sidvicious3129 thx for sharing and glad you didn't have a fire, yipes! I'm not necessarily a brand loyalist as I went from Vandersteen 3A Sig spkrs to Spatial Audio M5 open baffle which I still have both, to now enjoying maggies; all with the dual Vandy 2Wq subs wired at spker level. Tried two different amps, a class D and A/B with no issues but am a bit more leery after your reply and Mikey's advice to avoid spkr level connections if possible. I like the idea of the app with the SVS for convenience but once set not sure it would be needed, although might be nice to have two diff preset settings, one for music and one a bit more for HT; although maybe could accomplish something similar with a loudness type setting in the pre for HT. From the little I've researched lately the SVS line is not quite as highly recommended by audiophiles as REL or Rythmik for seamless matching and slightly more detail. My Vandy subs are sure sounding good in that regard and are completely transparent. I also like that Rythmik has a damping setting that other subs don't seem to address as explained in their reply here; unless maybe that is a feature in the SVS app (?). I don't have time/tools/space to build the GR kits like Mikey uses. Whatever sub, I plan on skipping the passive HP filters and going active like Mikey recommends, just going to try the miniDSP Studio route first as it has HP filters and Dirac and does it upstream in the digital domain. I also found that in my room pulling the subs out from walls and corners at opposite ends is much better than both at spkr positions or on front wall, one is near front spkr so about 4' from walls and the other is at back of room towards side but also away from walls. I'm now a firm believer in HP filter the maggies, or other spkrs to help them and amp and to put the low bass in the subs that can be placed more optimally for room modes than the front mains.

[@sidvicious3129]

@@michaelcampbell9459 Hi Michael, I forgot to tell you what the application contains, you can control the volume, the low pass filter, the phase, the polarity, and the parametric Eq, it has room gain compensation, 3 presets and you can turn the display on an and set a timeout for that display or lock the display so that no one can mess with your settings. That mini DSP with HP filter sounds interesting. The SVS has more controls on this sub than any Vandersteen, Rel, or any subwoofer that I have ever owned, and they can be controlled from the convenience of your couch. I have owned Rel -3 models and the two Vandersteens among others. Don't get me wrong, Rel subs are good and I, even with my dealer's help and a special cable that he made, found a workaround to use one sub on two monoblocs, which isn't recommended by Rel, but highly doable with no problems to my system. The amount of quality bass and the ease and control over this SVS sub is like no other. The SVS has dual XLR in and out as well as RCA and can be daisy chained if you choose another SVS with XLR and it is sealed and not ported. This sub surprised the heck out of me. SVS has a ton of preset low pass settings on their website for almost any speaker in existence and if it is not listed SVS will look up your model and tell you which low pass setting to use. Speaking of Audiophiles not having good reviews for SVS, check out Steve Guttenberg the Audiophilliac review on his KZbin Channel of the SB4000. He absolutely loves it. There are so many controls to match the sub perfectly than I have ever seen on any sub. This sub is the real deal, and it is very quick and musical, SVS just unfortunately in some people's eyes is still caring about the Home Theater moniker. I have called SVS twice and they responded quickly both times and had answers for me quickly. I bought my sub before the pandemic and it is almost double the price now.

[@leonardodominicis498]

I just bought a Class D TPA3116D2 Amp, Fosi Audio T20. I don't understand quite much about it. This amp has no GND screws on the back, so it's suppose to be ok for high level sub connection? On the old amp (Toshiba SB-M2) has a GND screw on the back. I was just about to buy Mivoc Hype 10 G2 because it have "high level input" and "high level output" for my speaker Can you make me an example of how to connect the sub in the right way?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Leonardo, You are talking about a Chinese made amp that costs less than $100. I apologize but I do not know anything about them. I would suggest to buy a better amplifier before you try to integrate subs. You must have a solid foundation to build from . Im sorry I could not help more my friend. All the best.

[@xphantomx4638]

Hey Mike ! What companies would you say make the best subwoofers ?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I'm not sure because I always make my own. I dont like plate amps, especially right behind my driver. So I hand pick my components and have a company with a cnc make my cabinets. I'm not even saying any company has a bad sub. I'm just saying the hookup is wonky as crap and they should at least have a bold faced warning in thier manual about blowing up a differential amp. rather than a casual mention..

[@poserwannabe1]

JL Audio

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

xPHANTOMx, look at Rythmik audio.. they cover the timing issue the right way..

[@xphantomx4638]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Yeah I heard of them before. They make servo subs and I guess they are quite highly regarded ! Thanks for the suggestion !

[@rythmikaudio3034]

REL says the best way to connect your sub is via speaker level inputs. There is absolutely no base. In fact it is best to use a bass management (essentially a crossover) with your sub, regardless brands. The reason is no front speaker manufacturers want their speakers be labelled as having weak bass. So all speakers try to make the bass sound bigger to the extent it becomes fake bass. Making speaker extends low takes a toll on efficiency. So majority of them opt to a technique call high-Q alignment (also known as under-damped) in which the bass frequency response has a bump before rolling off. Just go check all Stereophile magazine measurements of speaker reviews. If someone uses 1/3 oct averaging, the bump makes the graph looks better. But in reality the bass is very fake, sometimes even one-note. Now if one uses speaker level inputs to a sub, it basically does not address this problem because this method can only augment bass. Essentially it just a patch, not a solution. The correct way to produce a better overall bass integration is to have crossover just high enough to roll-off the high-Q bump so you don't hear it anymore. Then you add the sub and let the sub get the truly flat frequency with low Q bass extension (in critical damped bass extension). This is the technical reason why everyone should stay away from speaker level inputs whenever possible. Using speaker level inputs can never trancend into the next higher level of sound quality. Now people may ask why REL comes up with this recommendation. It turns out this idea does not come from REL internal, instead it is from an amplifier designer, Paul McGowan (of PS audio). It is in one of his blogs. You know Paul. He is no speaker designer. He does not know prevalence of this high-Q boosted bass technique. How bad is this high-Q bass boost problem? A owner of Magico speakers measure its frequency and found this bump in the frequency response curve even after he spent so much money on a pair of them. It is measurable and it is audible.

[@pabsgabs]

Really? I'm surprised you haven't remove this video yet....

[@oohtob6685]

Ive put a pair of rel t5i's into my hegel h390 and via the high into my speaker binding posts. Ever since ive had a variable loudness hum coming from my amp. My hifi dealer says its the rels causing this..

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Bummer dude... I think itys a messed up way to connect them , try it the conventional way and see if it helps .

[@alext2933]

I have a soon to be vintage Canary Audio SET and run a high level sub with no problems and sounds great integrated with my ProAc floorstanders. I have tried many, many subs over the decades and many connection types. I find high level the easiest to match with the speaker impulse. I am lucky in that I only need the sub 30hz range to augment. I do not think that low level connections time as well but I am only single ended. I am 100% happy with my rig. I also have an Edge integrated, single ended, which I also use to great effect (with sub connected high level). I like the mood change in the system swapping my two amps in and out and the sub changes character with the amp swap. This simply cannot happen going from a pre as missing the amp's flavour. Keep up the great content Mikey.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks Alex, I'll try !! Im moving to open baffle servo drive subs to keep up with impulse

[@alext2933]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I wish I had the room to have an OCD rig....

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@alext2933 that's what a Nearfield rig is for. ;-)

[@alext2933]

@@OCDHIFiGuy i appreciqte you trying to make me feel better amigo but we know the truth. 😁

[@chrisrussell5498]

1 do you have a sub?? There are proper Ways of connecting different type amps.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I have 6 12s in towers active full time. You are correct, there are very different ways to connect subs, my opinion is it should never ever be to an amp thats already in use for something else.

[@richardr.5177]

Good subject. One question pops to mind. With line-level out on the preamp my active low gets a life of his own. Volume on the pre cranks up the amp but it is out of sync with the bass on low and high volume. To balance it I have to use the volume on plate amp of the active low. That's why I have switched to tapping of the binding post on a single-ended tube amp. I will be digging into it again. But is this expected or normal behavior?

[@rythmikaudio3034]

use the line level output from your preamp, not your source. The preamp output is volume controlled. That way you have both your satellite speakers and sub under the same volume control.

[@81970277324]

My sub stays in synch with volume on the sub out from the preamp. Not sure if there’s a diff with the preout. With the rel subs the high pass connection has some special sauce to keep your sub locked in at all volumes. I have one coming so I guess I’ll find out. But if highpass is working for you I’d ignore pointless advice.

[@81970277324]

Have you tried hooking up a set of rels and a/bing the connection methods? Could be enlightening?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

For some it may be, but not for me . Im sure it works fine, I just dont like it ... its only an opinion from one guy.. Thanks for leaving the suggestion although. Keep them coming !

[@81970277324]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I have one coming. I’ll a/b and see if it’s bullshit or not.

[@raymondtaveras9371]

I’ve used rel subwoofers for more than 20 years and never had any issues and rel subwoofers are installed by professionals but you have some hate for rel

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thier subs are fine , never said anything about the quality, Im complaining about the hookup method... I hope you understand the difference.. Its a great sub

[@mdenny264]

I have an Rel Gibraltar connected with am Gryphon Antileon Amp, this Amp has an Ground Connection. And i don't agree, please use the highlevel input for stereo!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

great , Im glad thats one guys opinion, But this is my channel and my opinion is dont do a stupid hookup if you dont need to. If you must, its OK< thats why they did it that way for convenience.

[@williemclean3224]

I added a Rel sub to my Technics su g 700 M2 Red wire went to right speaker + and yellow wire left speaker + black wire floating just like Rel tells you to do it. Works great.

[@rodneyarnoldi]

Actually you are correct. Some S/S amplifiers can be damaged. I used to have a Rel many years ago and I remember there was a warning in the handbook NOT to connect one of the three wires to the amplifiers speaker terminals, black one I think.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

UPDATE : UPDATE: OK , so after all this rigamarole lets get down to the basic points and keep things on track. My Method of using subwoofers does not include using plate amps whatsoever. I use subwoofers as if they are an extension of the main channel, as I am a 2 channel purist. My HiFi Rig is crossed over actively. This means each driver on that speaker gets its own amplifier. That amplifier gets a very specific frequency envelope based on the driver its pushing. I only give the amplifier the frequency that that driver uses. This is hands down the most efficient way to amplify a system, period. It is also the most accurate with the least loss. Therefore adding a sub to a system means adding a cabinet with a driver or drivers that is passive. Then adding another 2 amplifiers and removing the sub freq from the main drivers and instead directing them to the sub. There is no better way to do it. and this is what I do. so the fact that I dont know everything about plate amps is a good sign to those that wish to build the best sounding rig there is. I do not recommend or endorse Home Theater anything. Including plate amp subs. Any plate amp sub would degrade my system. So lets get that out of the way. This gets us to the point of my vid which is coming from my perspective at the top level of HiFi design. Attaching a plate amp input to the outputs of another amplifier to get signal is a ridiculous idea. Its a complete half measure. Now I understand not everyone can afford 8 mono amps or 4 stereo amps. Thats why this half measure as far as I m concerned exists. Its all good, no problem with that. But when something like this is introduced to the market as good science. Its bullshit. Its not good science at all. The way I do it is good science. This way is pseudo science. People say its to keep the "timing" the same. How do you explain a signal going to a speaker direct and a speaker going to an amp then a speaker, to be the same timing ? Its impossible. It may be a small delay, but it can be measured. So the same timing argument is flawed fundamentally. The Home Theater Subwoofer way is to pad the incoming speaker high level and convert it to line level for the amp input. What a horrible way to get line level. Start with a nice line level then amplify it then Snuff the high level down and force it back to what is now its original line level with loss, then lets call that loss The "texture" of your amplifier..lol. Look, I know its a bummer to realize your heroes have been lying to you, but if anyone sensibly can argue against what has just been said in favor of the lossy sub signal feed, then speak your peace. Keep in mind I am an OCD purist so even if a delay is measured in milliseconds, its no good to me.

[@srmitch9260]

Do you still have this stance? Against Rel?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

They are OK, not my brand tho..Id never own one

[@srmitch9260]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I saw a comment where you are saying you have changed your opinion which you expressed in this video? What would you then suggest is the superior subwoofer brand in your opinion?

[@jackflackatari]

From Gavin at REL the problem lies with the way the cables have been connected to the amp not the REL As you are using Dual Mono (same thing applies to monoblocks) the current connections of the amp are one channell has the red ( or yellow) and black connected and the other channel has just the yellow ( or Red) connected. Due to the design of the amps this will usually cause one of the channels to go unstable, thus overheating/blowing the amp. what needs to be done is to keep the REL connectedas nprmal but at the amps connections keep the positives as is, but connect the blacks to a ground point onb the amp, this will keep a common groundpoint to the monos keeping them stable Sorry to be so lengthy but I thought you should be warned. personall : i think its down to bad REL amp design( my hifi dealer friends think so too)

[@OrganNLou]

I am going to disagree with you here in going to high level from the amp to sub. This is the BEST way I have ever heard subs! Going low level, there are timing issues as it is going through the circuitry instead of coming straight from the current source. Rel states not to hook the amp level inputs if you have a differntial amp or class D as well. I am currently going from both amp outs into my sub and it sounds SOO much better. I have owned many Maggies over the years and they always sound much better directly from the amp as both signals are coming out at the same time (which is so important for magnepans).

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Can you explain the signal "coming out at the same time" please?

[@OrganNLou]

@@OCDHIFiGuy When your subwoofer is on the high-level input, it’s seeing exactly the same signal as your speakers, with no timing differences at all. The RCA subwoofer output on a preamp is going to be ever so slightly out of sync with the amp’s speaker outputs. Though it’s a tiny lag, it’s enough for subwoofer-speaker combo to be noticeably more coherent on the high-level input than on the RCA input. Also, because the subwoofers “see” the same tonal balance and damping factor as your amplifier (very simply, ‘damping factor’ is the control an amp has over the bass drivers on the speaker), the bass signal for the sub is textured just as it is on the speakers, and starts and stops at the same time across all the bass drivers.While a subwoofer on a home-cinema system is all about chest-thumping explosions and room-shaking rumbles, a subwoofer on a stereo system has to perform a far more subtle duty. A home-cinema sub can be all about sheer bass output, and music sub needs to be more about speed and articulation

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@OrganNLou OK So this is evolving away from my point which was differential amps black binding post is not ground, I know what damping factor is , but since I dont put these kind of subs in my rig ever I only know them as home theater plate amp things. Its still a half measure though. What I do is the full measure. Add another amplifier and a passive sub, cross it over before the amp and run the thing in its most optimized, efficient state. But I understand more now the why of it.. Thanks

[@rythmikaudio3034]

If we want to talk about speed of signal, you know voice coils in speakers is essentially made of long wire, sometimes 20ft long from red terminal to black terminal. So based on this reasoning we should match the voice coil wire length of your speakers with that of sub. The real world does not work that way. Using speaker level input is worst for those with tube power amps because tube power amps' frequency response is sensitive to speaker impedance (again Stereophile magazine has tons of discussion like that). I love the midrange of tube power amp, but absolutely hate the bass. I already said most speakers are designed with under-damped bass response. Tube power amps make it even more under-damped. Using speaker level inputs basically transfer that "coloration" to sub. Whatever the bass sound signature of your front speakers is then transferred to the sub. The "solution" is have a crossover on your front speakers to filter out the frequency range that the tube power amp is sensitive to wildly changing impedance curve. Then the sub comes in without any sensitivity to the impedance of your front speakers. I really think a lot of people are so used their speakers that they want adding a sub still sound like their before sound, even that means keeping the coloration. Abandoning that idea can open the door to transforming the sound to a full size and yet more articulate and transparent bass sound (with the right sub).

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Hi JTay, so I am wondering about another point and the ever so slightly out of sync thing. So if we hook up to output posts to keep things in sync, then we do not go straight to the crossover and driver like the main speakers do, we instead pad the signal down to line level then input it into a second amplifier before we hit the crossover and driver, dont you think there is a slight delay from being padded, converted to line level, input to a second amplifier then amplified then to the crossover and driver ? Its got to not only be a delay , but a loss of some sort I would imagine.

[@oysteinsoreide4323]

If you read the manual, then you would know that you are not supposed to attach the wire to the black post in balanced amps. The other wire should go to chassis ground instead.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

They say it but its not very obvoois, and peopel skim over these things so often.. It should be in red ... I think the wire is supposed to just hang loose..

[@brendanlawton7518]

Great thoughts Mikey. This topic has confused me for a bit. Wouldn't the line level make the speakers impedance too low as well? Our Canadian NRC has many suggestions for subs. The only time they mention a line level in put is when a LFE isn't available I use Axiom Audio speakers Amp. and sub their President CEO was one of the people in charge of the NRCs anechoic chamber along side Dr. Floyd Toole. Axiom has just released a line of Active Omnidirectional speakers, they also produce their own Amps. Their price performance ratio is crazy good. If possible you may want to check out what Axiom Audio is up too

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Are you getting line level (interconnects) mixed up with speaker level (speaker wire) ? I'll check Axiom out when I get a chance.. Thanks !

[@brendanlawton7518]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks sorry I meant Hi level. Would it not cause impedance problems, 4 Ohm becoming 2 Ohms. Where a regular run of the mill AMP/AVR would run out of juice?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@brendanlawton7518 Its exactly what I would think as well, but I really dont know how they handle it . All I know is there are better ways than a half measure.

[@zemansk7888]

This video says “it can” not “it will”. I can’t stand theoretical studies. My amp has been driving my REL’s for over 8 years and it’s still in prestine condition.

[@redleather100]

I’ve got a gato dia 250 amp (class D ) and was going to get a rel sub I’m so glad I saw this video could have saved me a lot of money that I don’t have . Thanks.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Remember theres no problem if you hook up correctly, though I think there is a better way to integrate sub or subs into a 2 way rig. Keep in mind the way I like to do it costs more. Since it seems you are money conscious Id say the best way is to check out Rythmik as they connect via the line out and they have actual real time sensing on the woofer for absolute accurate timing and integration. They may even cost less than others, but Im not sure.

[@redleather100]

OCD HI-Fi Guy that’s great cheers . Will check them out.

[@pennfootball71]

REL's take 150 or 300 ohms and like zero power from your amp. So I can't speak of other brands but don't just assume things becasue they won't damage an amp.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Im taking this from an amplifier manufacturer who builds balanced amps and he says Rel causes more repairs than anyone because people jhook them up wrong, its not that hard to ...

[@pennfootball71]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Well yea if you hook something up wrong it can cause a short. it just isn't stupid proof. REL has some great vids on how to hook things up. Their instruction manual is also something one should read then watch the vids. But a lot of folks have a GOOD local dealer actually hook them up for the customer at this level.

[@divadgnol67]

Mikey, Thanks for the info. You mentioned “hummmm” I have it coming from a class D amp. If of interest could you tell us how to remove noise from an amp. Or how to trouble shoot such a problem. If not, no worries. Love your stuff.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Hi David, that Hummm is excruciating to me, I cant handle it . lol. 90% of the time its a ground loop. Is all of your rig on a single duplex receptacle ? first things first, it to plug the whole rig on to one dupl;ex receptacle with the help of a power strip of good quality. first lets get that answer and I can pretty much walk you through finding the hum

[@divadgnol67]

@@OCDHIFiGuy it drives me out of my mind

[@divadgnol67]

I will troubleshoot that first and with your permission get back to you and sorry about the curse word that's how passionate I am about removing it

[@divadgnol67]

I took your advice and went out and bought two vintage NAD amps and a pair of elac speakers and I have an amazing sounding system. To my virgin audiophile ears

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@divadgnol67 I didnt even catch it. Yeah that's fine. Try to contact me directly as well . Verastarr at g mail .

[@scottsmith4024]

I have never owned a Rel sub but in my reading up on their subs I came across the warnings about the high level hook ups with certain amps and has clear instructions for balanced amps. From what I understand the high levels are used to let the sub determine what is the crossover level that is appropriate and for timing. The high levels are attached to the subs and the speakers in series. Thiel did a similar thing in their smartssub line as well and is suppose to more seamlessly blend the sub to the speakers. Why have a signal that is distorted by a low pass filter of unknown type or quality when you can feed the sub the high level signal and have the subs own crossover, specifically built for the sub, process process the signal. I believe the Rel subs use a DSP which may be the best reason to use high level signals to the sub.

[@charleskatz2606]

No DSP in REL they make a marketing point about it being all analogue.Interesting that many who don't like DSP and new Dirac processing do say that almost an speaker needs DSP even if you optimize placement and treat rooms etc for frequency below 150hrz to platten it out take care of nulls and voids etc.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

distorted by a low pass filter ? who says the line level gets filtered anywhere else then the sub ? In my example like a preout, its full range to the plate sub whereby it uses its own optimized low pass filter.

[@scottsmith4024]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Oh, i was assuming you were talking about using a pre out for the sub

[@scottsmith4024]

@@charleskatz2606 yeah, you can do it manually but most people are too lazy to treat their room and fiddle with the equalizer settings. Heck, most people are too lazy or intimidated to even run the room correction software.

[@charleskatz2606]

@@scottsmith4024 Yeah.I am a tube and horn guy (plus a computer idiot luddite) but the potential for DSP is pretty amazing - it has sounded like ass up till now above bass level but look at the 15 years it took for CD's to sound OK or how only now Class D does not suck.I remember when the first NAD pre came out with not digital eq "holy crap not only frequency but Q" i.e digital parametric.Only thing that ever wowed me back in the day was Meridians incorporation of Trinaural 3 channel processing.Everything else sucked.But hey it's 2019 my pal bought a Sweetvinyl Sugarcube to put i his $10K rig and crazy that it not removed clicks and pops but you could still hear the Primaluna Tubes perfectly.Check out Kii speakers for $10K and the DSP they use will allow for as good a response for any given placement/room set up. My budget will allow to check out the MiniDSP Dirac SHD.Not only has Dirac processing which doesn't just correct phase but also time domain and has a full electronic X-over (and tosses in pre/dac/streamer) for $1200.That's why I wish I had a pre with an EPL - my current EAR 834 has only a tape loop.But the future maybe hear just before we all burn up or are covered by water

[@epg2501]

I’m looking to integrate REL’s with my Maggies so I’ve been seeing this high pass connection option. I was questioning this myself.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Are you the guy in CAL who I configured the JL Subs with over the phone your first time meeting me ? Sorry for the shameless plug , but hey Ive got to let people know what its like to buy HiFi from Me, so Ill tell them that you came to me with a $7K budget for a new DAC. Instead of selling you the new DAC you thought you needed, I fixed the issue you had over the phone and saved you the $7K .All it takes is proper setup .. ;-)

[@epg2501]

@@OCDHIFiGuy No, thats not me. I like Maggies and Jeff Rowlands so thats how I came upon your videos. I just don’t want to mess with my amps with the subs.

[@robh9079]

i think i heard rel talk about connecting to a digital amp by connecting red to red and black to ground earth - not the black speaker out, as there are problems connecting a Class D in their usual manner (apparently it will work for a bit though kill the rel after a while) - not sure though just adding an investigative caution to class D owners also

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Good lookin out Rob !

[@rythmikaudio3034]

No one brings in the question of how mastering studio people use the subs. They are the professional. We use stereo for fun and they do it for their livelihood. They are the ones who do the final touch and release CD, DVD, you name it. They never use high level speaker level inputs. It is just too much restriction. I have sold quite a few subwoofers to mastering studios including Sterling sounds, and FM design. They all use active crossover. The reason is very simple. Front speakers (or satellite speakers) have "under damped" bass extension response. The result is the bass is one note. Adding a subwoofer using speaker level inputs means you are stuck with that design flaw. I am not sure how many speaker level connection advocates measure their frequency response. Hunch is not good enough.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Well there ya have it , I figured I was on the right track with Active crossover. Thanks for chiming in. Do you have any idea who invented this way of connecting sub and why ? My hunch is it is a half measure aimed at getting something done in a pinch. From what I was hearing here people were saying it was to get the timing straight because the signal reached the speakers and subs at equal time, I got to thinking how could an amp send signal to crossover and driver direct on the mains then send it to a second amp then to crossover and subs and not have some sort of delay and or loss ? Another question perhaps you may enlighten us is some people are claiming their REL sub sounded better with the high level parasitic connection than with sub or Pre out on the linestage ..I wonder if its something to do with REL or with other subs too, but Ive never heard of this ..

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Now that I think of it you are probably a good person to ask about the group delay , as it seems people say the REL way of connecting is to keep the subs blended with the mains better , better than the RCA Line out from whats been posted. Isnt that why Servo subs were invented ? I have never had a servo sub, but I do use Magnepan, and I dont really notice slower sub bass, but because Im OCD Boy I cant help but wonder perhaps its something that I dont hear now, but if its gone then I would hear it big time if it came back... This happened to me with distortion..

[@rythmikaudio3034]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Paul McGowan proudly wrote the event on how this speaker level connection becomes the selling point of REL subs. REL designs subwoofers. They only do subwoofers, no separate amplifiers, no front speakers, nothing else. So REL went to Paul McGowan (as an authoritative figure) on what is the best way to connect a sub. Paul, among other things he design, is an amplifier designer busy with "voice" amplifiers (ie make it sound good with various components swap or different circuit topology, in what one may consider as tweaking). So his subjective answer is use speaker level inputs so that all his "tweak" effort can also go to the subwoofer. So it is a very simple-minded, one sided, non-science-based answer. That is what I call a hunch.

[@rythmikaudio3034]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Group delay is related to the Q value of bass extension. Q=0.5 is what we called critically damped. It has the fastest transient response in time domain which also has the lowest number of group delay. Most front speakers bass extension Q=0.9, which we called under damped with a lot of ringing in time domain and the worst group delay. So the goal of subwoofer integration is get rid of that Q=0.9 and then add the Q=0.5 bass extension. That gives us the most transparent and articulate bass response. Using speaker level inputs can never get rid of that 0.9 under damped characteristic. Magnepan while is good also exhibits this high Q ringing characteristic. So your method of using active crossover on Magnepan is also better than using no crossover at all. Our subs have 3 damping control settings: high is Q=0.5 and low is Q=0.9 and mid is Q=0.7. We provides the switch so that I can collect customers preference on which setting they like best. I can tell you 90% customers use high damping for music. For movies, some like myself even use high damping for movies while others may use mid or low damping for movies. But for music, there is no better setting than high damping.

[@andrzejz6980]

Been using Rel for about 10 years now, never had a problem with high level connector.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Many people do not have problems , its just a very strange way to do stuff...

[@tomislavgasparic8100]

You have a piont, in differential/balanced amps, one can burn output stage for inverted signal side if sub is connected. negative out his is not goround post. Subs tend to have grounded minus on high level inpust. Push pull does not mean differential. Push pull is principle of one output stage with negative and positive side (of power supply) in relation to gorund. Diferential is like bridge connection. single ended output stage can be used in deferential(bridged) way. Half of blame is on amp manufacturers, if they produce differental amp, and they mark one (inverted output) binding post in black colour, like is grounded, this is stupid. marking. Differential power amps must have two red posts with pos/neg labels

[@DameDolla01]

What type of an “audiophile” attempts to judge something without first experiencing it? Shaking my head.

[@kenfrigo1618]

You just can't experience 'everything'. Much of knowledge is learned and used to guide your judgement to make educated decisions.

[@PrimeHiFi]

Never have used high level inputs and never will. Also, having all those extra wires running everywhere is ugly. I use a REL T3 with line level inputs and love it. Thanks for the info Mikey

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Yeah man ! theres nothing more of a bummer than a customer receiving a brand new amp and toasting it immediately.

[@PrimeHiFi]

Agreed. I could only imagine!

[@danlivni2097]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Which Rel Sub were you using.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@danlivni2097 I dont use plate subs , I was talking with a differential amp manufacturer who said I would not believe the number of amps that sustain blown fuses from that wiring.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@Carl-bd1rf You ought to try a second amp and a passive driver, its 2 channel not home theater we are talking about. The moral of the story is plate amps are lame

[@jitrapornpha5104]

I never felt comfortable running a passive sub from a 2 channel amp

[@jackflackatari]

How many people do Rel owe money to?

[@blackhawk3498]

Hi Mickey, first let me say that I subscribe to your channel and I like the content you provide. Even though I agree with what your saying, I think your doing Rel a dis-service... I have diff amps as you do and I call Rel and they advised me to use a grounding block or chassis for the black wire. I find whenever I reach out to tech support they provide me with good info. I absolutely love my Rel sub's and I couldn't be happier without any problems. I would just suggest before making a blanket statement like you have on the title of your video, to ensure it's a absolute issue not a generalized issue. Just my two cents.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks Corey I appreciate your comment. I was not saying REL subs were bad. Just that the hookup method is not a real way to hook up a sub as far as Im concerned and Ive got some engineers that will explain why and most likely REL engineers will be invited to respond. suggested a grounding block ? You mean like those $3K EntreQ things ? I think if they just would put something like WARNING !! before the paragraph about differential amps people may see it better as it seems they glaze right over. Part is also the amp users issue if they dont know thier amp is differential , but thats the whole reason we buy them, and there are not that many..

[@MsCorbacho]

Have had 4 rel subs until now , with various amps ,..zero problems or huuum.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Be careful when using balanced amplifiers, you can blow them up.

[@thwickman]

Maybe you should take this post down huh? Not even close to correct!

[@CaptainCrunch823]

Hey Mike, I generally enjoy your videos and have learned a thing or two, but disagree with you on this one. I tried quite a few different subs before landing on REL + their recommended approach of connecting directly to the amp. It works great for me!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

That's ok to disagree. I use Magnepan and REL cant keep up same with any other sub thats not both open baffle and servo controlled. I use servo controlled subs that have zero overshoot. They stop when the Maggie's stop. Personally I dont feel anything run by a plate amp is really all there in terms of best quality. It's a half measure for convenience sake.This even goes for my plate run servo controlled subs. There was no other way to get servo that I could find, I think it would be even better if not on a plate and made in China. Id love to see someone do a servo controlled regular amp and sub, that would be great.

[@clothyardshafts]

REL’s recommended hookup to a balanced amp worked for me. Indeed, just to check, I phones my amp maker Ayre and they confirmed REL’s advice.

[@berj79]

If you have an issue using the High Level connection, then just use the low level input, amp/preamp sub out to low level in the Rel, Simple dude..

[@CollectingRetro]

Thanks for the clarification! It does sound dumb after you explain how they do it in circuit. Glad my sweet little 6SN7 pre has dual outs! Subs might be coming soon... How are those Jupiter caps doing? Any comparison to what you had in there previously?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I love jupiters. Half those were for the 300B monos, the others for Vermeer 2 , Ive been too busy to mod either one.. uggh..lol

[@clothyardshafts]

This is mixed up and erroneous advice. REL gives detailed advice on attaching their subs to balanced amps. As I understand it, some years ago, the REL advice was wrong. That mistake was fixed some years ago. I phone Ayre, my amp maker, just to be sure of the connection method. needless to say, my sub plays nicely with the sound is absolutely fantastic. Oh BTW the black lead is connected to ground.

[@roberthart3452]

Same way Paul McGowan says to connect subs. I tried it and my crappy SVS subs (Ultra and Plus) Peter Madnick says do NOT do it that way with is amps That aside, Paul was the only mfg selling dif balanced kit at a reasonable price back in the mid 80s, so I switched. I found the music so much mre grounded and organic. I used to lambast reviewers and editors for using a dif balanced component in a single ended system then saying they couldn't hear any difference I woud scream at the ages of such reviews. I finally gave up trying

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

It's a complete half measure and major liability. Otherwise known as "monkey business". I may go as far as to assert that it gives the person away as a non audiophile if they tell you that. Or they are simply irresponsible.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

We are on the same page Robert....

[@Grooverski]

What????? LMAO Haven't heard of any lawsuits against Rel in 20years. OCD+drugs= ^^^^^ guy.

[@dr.zoidberg4313]

I have a single ended integrated without line level out (Lavardin IT)... hums and hisses too. I run my two subs off the speaker taps. You would not be impressed.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Lol. It honestly isnt that big of a deal if it all works electrically which it sounds like yours does. It's a real drag when expensive differential amps get blown though...

[@dr.zoidberg4313]

@@OCDHIFiGuy You know what else? If I switch the polarity on the power cord it sounds better... I can't wrap my head around that... and every time someone turns on a light in the house my speakers go KA-BLAM-0! Thing freaks me out. 😟

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@dr.zoidberg4313 lol, holy crap man. Id start by checking the house ground to see if its come detached. Its quite common for the ground wire at the grounding rofd to come unattached rendering the home ungrounded. As a matter fo fact you should have 2 ground rods 8 foot long and 8 foot apart, then use heavy AWG ground wire attached nice and strong to the rods then over to your meter box. there may be voltage on your ground or possibly DC on the line.. I would have it checked out by an electrician.. sort of an assessment to determine if any of those issues I mentioned exist ...

[@dr.zoidberg4313]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Cheers OCD Guy, I'll definitely look into that. I just put it down to the French... but it could be me! Might try a grounding box too, I'll have to re-watch some of your vids. Peace.

[@raymondtaveras9371]

Rel makes the best subwoofers in the planet and MartinLogan BalancedForce

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Clearly you have not heard any of the professional sub makers like Bag End, Or Danley for instance. They utterly stomp out home subs like a cigarette butt. Then theres the servo sub which is a patented way to blend time delay and much more accurate than the high signal method..

[@ericlind6581]

Try getting a Canton Vento subwoofer...it’s in another league.

[@j0hnbo0]

Watched about 4 mins of this vid and had to stop. Sounds like you're not familiar with the Neutrik Speakon cable RELs come with and how the sub is connected. REL has even posted specific youtube videos on how to connect the sub to a Class AB or D amp. I do think that they should warn consumers more explicitly about the damage that can occur if not connected correctly. You should have researched first and actually had some hands on experience yourself before jumping on youtube for views. This is the first video I've seen of yours, and probably the last as your credibility didn't last long. It actually seems like you have a personal issue with REL by the way you were mocking them. hah

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I was not mocking the brand. I was mocking the way the subs connect. I still think its not sound engineering. (no pun intended) I dont care if Paul McGowan thinks its the best. I think its flawed and I will dig to find the way to explain it in plain english. Just think about it . The mains come straight off the amp, but the subs come off a second amp that is in the signal path after the amp the mains are on. No way there is not a delay and loss from that. Perhaps they correct the error they created via DSP, if so, this gets even further away from Purist 2 channel, which is what I am all about.

[@NickP333]

This is getting intense, dude!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Intensity in ten cities !

[@Another_Audiophile]

REL has specific instructions how to connect the HL connection to a fully balanced amplifier. Sorry but are talking nonsense and it seems that you just dislike REL subs. Having HL connections is a nice to have option. Have been using REL subs with fully balanced amplifiers with Zero problems.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Yes you are correct, I think REL is overpriced and not very special. and exactly as you say the reason for the strange hookup is for convenience. in other words a shortcut from the way its supposed to be done. I dont like audio shortcuts . but you are correct it does work for some folks a lifetime with no problems, they are just not for me however.

[@Another_Audiophile]

@@OCDHIFiGuy that’s fair but calling it as a “danger to your amplifier” is a stretch if not outright wrong. The HL gives you the opportunity to place the sub anywhere in the room.

[@dilshadmashoor7566]

WHAT????!!! I think it's your OCD speaking!!!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Totally,,, Its so non intuitive to hook up a sub off an amp output ... lol

[@mickmcmick8247]

Okay, cool. But yeah.... you're wrong.

[@lvazquezus]

Mikey hey man great video, what is it with the hickey accent lol, hey I have balanced amps and pre amps and dac, bought a cable for the preamp once, polarity on the ac cable was inverted, got a hum right there, you make power cables so you should have run over that scenario. My point, even balanced equipment can get hum

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I'll come up with an accent or ten along the way. Lol. My power cables dont have assembly mistakes and if they did, we would catch it in QC. I've never had my fully balanced rig hum. In the past it only did when I incorporated RCA for one component. So as long as people always buy good cables it never hums.

[@lvazquezus]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I thought the accent was funny, I wasn't talking about your cables sorry if that was implied but no, the power cable was from a different manufacturer. My rig is fully balanced and "differential" atmasphere amp + preamp yet a single cable made it hum, I thought it was something interesting to mention here since you talked about the hum. Take care

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@lvazquezus typing is always so hard to hear intent. I understand you were not poking fun at our cables. I think your point was that even balanced rigs can hum as well. Is this correct? Since I know there are many new audiophiles reading here , I'd hate to confuse them. Therefore I mentioned that in a runaround way your statement may be true, though for the majority of people, they will never get a hum from a balanced rig. Only if they put in a defective cable. As you so kindly point out.

[@lvazquezus]

@@OCDHIFiGuy you are absolutely correct and apologies if I mistakenly derailed your thread, listening to a playlist I built watching your videos, the Joshua Bell Scottish Fantasy is incredible, thank you for posting

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@lvazquezus no my man, all is good , thanks for your feedback and thanks for your support. !

[@gregorygreg4263]

If you use a balanced amp dont do it for everyone else its fine. You could do with doing a basic electonics course before talking about things you dont clearly fully understand. I use a good normal aplifier clas D and i dont get hum or noise or distortion that i can detect. I have connected my Rel like this for years without any ill affects.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

All I need to understand is properly implemented professional balanced connections have less of a chance of hum than consumer grade RCAs. If you are happy with your RCA then great. I don't use them.

[@gregorygreg4263]

@@OCDHIFiGuy do a test double blind with balanced amplifier which you like and a lets say normal amplifier at the same price point all other things being equal and see if you can tell which one is playing the music. If both amps are set up properly and are of good quality and dB matched double blind I think you would have a hard time telling which was which. Out of interest what amplifier are you using ? . Thanks Greg.

[@arunpaul2301]

I mean.... Really??? Half knowledges is very dangerous.

[@moshet842]

Lol I for one am not touching a sub if it does not have high-level inputs. You said a lot of dumb stuff.

[@andrewcrain5461]

Wow brother lmfao I really enjoyed this video!!! GREAT POINT!!! HAVE TO SAY THAT VOICE YOU DID FUCKING CRACK ME UP...LOLOLOLOL.....on the Serious side I really Appreciate you being brutally honest cuz that's what most are not much love

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Im just being my normal clown self.. sometimes people take it wrong.. Im having fun and hope you all do to ! Thanks for the feedback

[@ledmarketaustralia3347]

full of rubbish. i have been running REL storm with high level input for years.

[@newtronix]

You're talking shit. Speaker outputs aren't balanced

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Are you uneducated enough to think that the black is a ground on every amp ?

[@noctemrealm6013]

damn thats crazy...

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

U ain't B.S. ing