Making Records With Eric Valentine - "ITB vs. OTB"

In this episode, I give details on the custom passive summing mixer I built for myself for my latest round of mixing and compare using it vs. staying in the box.
Here is a link to the spreadsheet for doing the calculations. Please download an Excel copy for yourself to tinker with so this original does not get altered. Thanks!! Hope it useful!!
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

[@antoniorobbins6768]

EV = "information is more important than whether I am good at this or not" ----> BRILLIANT. Send me a link how to build this thing. This is the BEST vlog on KZbin!!!

[@StandaceCup]

sooo true!

[@experiment0003]

It takes a very special circumstance for me to leave a comment. This is one! You have no idea how useful your video series is!!!

[@republicaudio6905]

The level of detail is great Eric! This one is a real gift!!

[@uzefulidiot]

Loving this series, and one of my absolute favorite folks, keep 'em coming!

[@Chaplainspuntnl]

Eric, thanks for sharing your knowledge! Your mixes and arrangements sound so musical and deep, it’s a treat to hear you explain your choices and thoughtproces. I’m learning a lot!

[@BigHairyGuitars]

Just thanking you again for doing this. Yesterday All American Rejects was on the radio, and I totally forgot that you did that too! It just jumped out of the car speakers! So great sounding.

[@geoffschuller4875]

Wow! That was amazing! Especially the 1:4:20 conversions bit. And the insight about digital adding nothing and analog absolutely adding color. Thanks, Eric!

[@nolanneal]

This is the best mental stimulation I’ve ever gotten from KZbin. Sheer brilliance! Thank you for sharing this information!

[@dirkbrouns5293]

Really cool to show this entire process - love your channel! Also, it shows how small the differences are in the bigger picture: both mixes perfectly bring the song across in my view. Thank you!

[@joeycatalano3378]

That Pedal Show needs your UTA vari-cap cable. I think they are doing a more in-depth show on capacitance soon and your cable would be such a great demonstration tool. It has changed my life! Haha. Such a brilliant idea. Just found your show recently...wow! Great content Eric! Thank you!

[@mrufino1]

Awesome video as always Eric!!! I just built the DIYRE 16 into 2 passive summing mixer and even with only 2 inexpensive 500 series neve clones, the difference was incredible. It was more for me than the difference that this video showed, which speaks to the incredible work you do no matter what the system is that you’re working on. But I will definitely be using the summing mixer from now on.

[@grampageoff]

I can't get enough of these. Thank you Eric!

[@daneilcorrea3404]

grampageoff666 it’s so crazy, but these differences make the differences in the record. This is awesome!

[@rafrecording]

This is far beyond everything out there. Thank you so much Eric!

[@matiascova]

Amazing. Keep doing this forever, we'll appreciate it.

[@johnzadeh7981]

Thanks Eric! This helps me win my argument. I sum through an API "The BOX", and I hear an immense difference in the sonic expressions, wider panning, smoother top, controlled low end, more cohesive stereo mix, etc... I love your channel!! It's great to have a pro like you!! Thanks man!

[@GingerDrums]

investment bias 😢

[@anthonygettig3058]

Dude, this is so inspiring! I’m inspired to get my soldering iron out and make something! Keep up the great work!

[@MichaelWilson-ri9pn]

Super cool of you to do these videos and give us amateurs a peek behind the current. Also, you a super nice guy. I met you and Geoff Tyson when T-Ride opened for Joe Satriani way back when. Killer show.

[@BradBreeckMusic]

Awesome! Thanks so much for doing these and sharing your knowledge. Your drum sounds are so incredible in these tracks. I'd kill to be able to get the kick sound in this song. I'd love to see a video where you go in depth about your drum tuning, treatment, and mic placement for a track like this. Thanks again!!

[@buhlir]

This was awesome. I really want to do this but I have a lot of gear to get first like the preamps but man in a year or so when I do I'm gonna do this. thank you for geeking out and showing us how you did this. so cool

[@patronusstudios2968]

This video ruled! Thanks for taking the extra time to get into real detail on the entire signal flow!

[@stuemerson172]

These are all great videos ! keep em coming Eric ,Thank you

[@itube0103]

Eric great show! aAfter your series of informative videos, this geeky tutorial clarifies some of my thoughts on building my summing mixers. Now I am going to try mixing though different summing stages as well.

[@danknittel1250]

Love your videos! Thanks so much for taking the time to do these Eric. =)

[@thomaspersson1533]

Thanks for doing this Eric🙏 And man that is one funky tune!

[@jasonvrabe]

Brilliant dude. These videos are amazing. Love the conversion test at the end.

[@thechrisricci]

Really cool, Eric! I enjoy the science mixed in with the art.

[@kingfree473]

I feel like we're just hanging out chatting about this or that (be it production dives or summing mixer breakdowns) when Im watching your videos, and I gotta say... its honestly bad ass. Most channels on YT are gearing towards editing their videos so that things are fast paced and have the vibe of being specifically a "YT video" and I don't hate those videos I watch plenty of YT channels. The thing Im getting at is that you're just doing your thing, being yourself and saying fuck all that nonsense which is really fucking cool man. Much love and respect my man! Thank you for the informative and relaxed vibe of your videos. Keep doing your thing EV! BTW its hella appreciated. \m/ - King

[@marcusthemonkey]

This is my new favourite channel. Thank you!

[@jordanredroom]

I look forward to these so much!!!!

[@steveg219]

I’ve watched this again and it really clarified the Sonics around the analog summing for me. It seems to me that analog takes away some transient peaks reducing some amount of clarity but it sounds so good that it seems ‘right’ but technically is distortion- it’s changing the information. Also I thought that the 20 digital conversions had some element of this too, like the transients were slightly diminished and that was good but I would am not 100% sure of this

[@yutux]

Thanks for doing this videos Eric, just amazing! I can see things like the Bettermaker and WesAudio units working good for the inserts on this setup... with a total recall version of the Unfairchild !! :)

[@CristianCifuentes61]

this is awesome ! so many experience shared to us. Thank you very much for that Eric

[@MiguelNoyola1]

Sounds amazing! Great job Eric!

[@cleedev]

Reminds me of the Altair, an early computer... You are truly a wizard Eric! Thanks for the inspiration!

[@RiotHomeRecording]

Very very awesome video with great information, I’m in the process of building a Summing mixer using vintage api 325 cards, the reason I stopped using a Summing mixer and purchased a console is I could Not stand my Automation rides effecting my compression. The Summing mixer I’m having made now is going to be mostly used as additional returns to my console and for when I want to mix totally ITB to use it as stand alone mixer. I agree the beautiful thing about a console is you are going through multiple amplifier stages that equals the sound that most of us love. Great video thanks!

brilliant ! 20x! that was a very positive surprise, if the analog insert provides your sound with more mojo and more in-accurate abstractions that create joy, then don't ever be afraid of leaving the DAW and returning with the goods :)

[@sugawararyo9295]

WORDS OF GOLD...or maybe worth DIAMONDS!!! Thank you SENSEI for your knowledge, and the formula spreadsheet!!!

[@3nochendtimesmusic925]

Wow man.. it's awsome what one can do with the right knowledge. Loved your drums too, Steve Gadd is the man.

[@ITBprod.fr80]

Astucieux , ingénieux Bravo et merci pour le partage !! all the best from Paris !!

[@chrisschuett4052]

Many Many thanks for these highly informative videos man! Not a bore at all, this is top quality education from a professional!

[@spost26]

Love this! Please do more videos on electronics for audio engineers!

[@JohnnyChords]

Hey Eric, this is great! I'm very interested in building the mixer. Would love to check out the link you mentioned. Thank you so much for giving us all the opportunity to see you work. Great channel!

[@maidhcheff]

These videos are amazing! Thanks Eric!

[@zuu1701]

That bit where you did 20 conversions was a fascinating way to end this video. I've always wondered about this but never thought to actually try it. I don't have an Orion, but a similar priced converter so I'm assuming mine will be the same too. Nice work Eric!

[@emanuelapascaritei8754]

That's brilliant Eric! Also your YT channel is full of quality and real info. I did a lot of testing between ITB vs OTB summing and to my surprise, with Protools 11 (it's when Avid built the mixing engine from the ground up and also went to 64 bit) the difference was minimum, not to say none. So for summing I'm pretty pleased with Protools, but still use lots of hardware inserts, plugins are still far from analog processing. As always, IMO

[@tommckeown6970]

Thanks Eric. Again, you are a voice of reason in an audio world of hype.

[@charlesswicegood3759]

This is great man, I’d love a BOM of this unit... Seriously thanks for this.

[@perryjoe02]

Eric your videos are BRILLIANT. An army of noobs really appreciate this material. Thanks Eric, really, really thanks...

[@calebrosazza]

I'd love to see a full episode on this song or something else from that record!

[@monkeyxx]

That mix / production is so good. Very subtle ITB vs OTB. Love the information on summing mixers, I built my own but it's not nearly as advanced as your complete rig.

[@billyhughes9776]

This is a level of technical prowess along with engineering/mixing artistry/creativity that is almost beyond my comprehension. But, I will keep watching.....wow. Listening on decent headphone I could barely tell the difference between OTB and ITB.

[@lmpcrew]

Wow wowo wow the 20 conversation sounds the same to me, that's a big eyes opener as I use an Orion 32 as well, also was great meeting an chatting with you at the event "An evening with Eric valentine" at the SX Pro UK

[@tempesthoughton4441]

Highly informative video! I've spent so much time last year screwing around with passive summing, building different amounts of channels, using different pres, etc. I ultimately abandoned it completely because it changed my work-flow too much. I also didn't really find that the preamps making up the gain had really that dramatic effect. So it's interesting to me that that is still the case using 8 of them in all the various points. I mean, I could definitely hear the difference but for someone like me who doesn't really have a way to deal with automation with in-line dynamics, etc the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze. Thanks for making these videos!

[@maybe5067]

interesting experiment Eric, thanks for sharing it and yourself genuinely.... cool .... peace...Mathew

[@easymix8109]

Thank you Eric. Humble and genius. all the right things being said!!!

[@twocents5043]

Just the best videos. Nice one Eric.

[@MrJahmez13]

Hey brother.. As always such great information and often just fun insight in how us nerds try to solve creative problems. I've been in the box for years now and still miss analog for many reasons but also don't at all for so many others! Hope to see you soon. J-

[@SamIntharaphithakOFFICIAL]

Wow... the ITB mix has more low end but sounds smeared. The OTB mix has great definition and clarity. Love it.

[@danb1942]

Your layers are awesome! like to know more about your summer when it come out.

[@alexdawson7851]

Answered a lot of questions, cheers Eric

[@rowegardner9673]

You’re the man! Thank you for all these amazing videos :)

[@sourcefor]

you are a very intelligent man Love this channel!!!! Good Stuff great mixes!!!!Loved the SLASH ALBUM!

[@franshagglund5879]

The potential degradation in quality that happens with AD/DA conversion mostly comes into play during the 1st conversion. The converter has it’s boundaries in terms of frequency response / reproduction that sets the “tone” (no pun :)) for what that audio can possibly be further on after one passage of conversion. If you continue to do passes of that very same audio it seems like it also stays within those boundaries and doesn’t degrade more. But if you compare the same non-converted audio but through 2 different converters in just 1 pass, the difference is massive! So conversion might not be degrading audio from one reference point onwards, but it sure can be either better or worse depending on the converter during the first pass through it.

[@tedgerard333]

Wow pretty impressive stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[@zorgdrummer]

Great Videos, love the entire series. Would please deconstruct the mix of that song? Would be fantastic to share a List of material for building the summing mixer 😊 Thanks Eric !

[@kylegushue]

It would be interesting to hear a replication of the bussing architecture and gear, ITB, to hear the differences. Great work!

[@geoffreyh8606]

Hey. Love all the videos you do.! Appreciate taking the time. Very helpful. I had a suck-ass drum mix on one of my tunes and I used your mixing drums vid to save the day. Anyway, I have had a Shadow Hills Equinox and now work with 3 Rupert Neve 5059s and a 5060. I find myself riding the faders a lot (too much). I would love a product that can automate after outboard. I have about 25 outboard units. I find a lot of time I will print stems back into computer and then automate. Boy, it would be nice not to have to commit to a stem that way--in addition to wrestling with timing issues after printing back in. Keep up the nerd videos. Maybe you can do one that addresses how you print back ITB and not have to deal with timing issues, phase, etc. I use Logic and haven't found a way to compensate printing outboard gear. THANKS!!

[@bencahill1854]

So good. Thanks for sharing. Would love to hear about that hefty drum sound.

[@DomSimpsonDrums]

Bass on the left wigged me out at first but I love how a lot of those old records are often panned like that. I was just talking a few hours ago about how the song "Express Yourself" by Charles Wright has the drums panned hard left. Love the panning on your stuff which leads me to a question... When you're arranging a production, do you put much thought into how the eventual mix will collapse to mono? The main reason I ask is because I've been listening to the Grace Potter "Midnight" album a bunch since your video featuring "I'd Rather Go Blind" and had forgotten I had set my phones output to Mono so when I was listening in the car it was mono for the first 3 or 4 listens. I was amazed how little it losses when played back mono. If i'm honest it actually took two more listens before I liked it better in stereo haha.

[@losangerouge4927]

Well this was a joy! The difference is there from the summing OTB, you can surely describe the thickness of the low end also I think the image is wider??!! I would be really interested in building something similar.. Cheers

[@jamesneville9933]

This is amazing thank you very much Eric! I wonder if another reason the ITB Hardware inserts don't sound quite as solid or spatially consistent as the OTB summing could be because the delay compensation of the hardware plugin inserts causes different tracks to be played ever so slightly out of time, and therefore the kick is just out of time with the OH etc. The hardware insert plugins are changing the phase relationships of the audio tracks ever so slightly and therefore it spreads it all out a bit... idk just a thought.

[@robertoquimi1349]

Cool workflow very organized

[@manofscience9950]

I think you're right about the conversions Eric, maybe it lost some mids perhaps? but I'm starting to think maybe my mind wants to hear a difference after so many conversions, very interesting, can't wait for the next vid.

[@AlfonsoCorace]

Brilliant!!! awesome work!

[@k.ollektiv]

Just brilliant!

[@remigettliffe]

Hi Eric, super funny, when the part on your diy mixer showed up, I was actually building busses for a full size 80 series class A console that I'm building to original Neve specs (don't know that anybody did that before haha). It was real fun to see how you did your stuff, can't see why there aren't any multibuss summing mixers available:) ! Hit me up if you wanna know more about that crazy console project of mine, I know you've been there, it'd be nice to chat!

[@joshofsorts]

Really enjoying your "super nerdy".

[@waldemarvogel7657]

A great video again. Thank you so much for sharing! Maybe you could mention one detail in one of the next videos. You said you have a music and a vocal bus. In wich of these two buses do all the effects go, that you use on vocals and also instruments? Thanks again and sorry for my bad English. :-))

[@thsithks]

Can you explain at some point why you've got the Lynx, Antelope and Apollo all in the same setup?

[@jeffreyanthony6628]

This is amazing! Thanks for the info!

[@REBELDONOG]

This is awesome, thank you Eric

[@craigsmith303]

These videos are great!, thanks for sharing your wisdom! Any chance you could share a little knowledge on your old Mic Bot??!

[@MeadowlarkAudioworks]

The titles of these episodes drastically under-sells the content. Amazing stuff.

[@cornerliston]

KZbin probably won't allow the sonic differences to shine through. Very good to see and probably a lot more fun to mix OTB-apart from all the extra time needed for hardware inserts and printing stems etc etc. If you have the budget go for it. Sonically the end listener would not be able to tell the difference even when pointed out. : ) Personally I like to use my external reverbs and sometimes taking extra time doing things clears your mind for a second. So as for a mixing process I believe it's a good thing.

[@TerenceDechef]

You are great. I love your channel, and how much you nerd out on stuff. I'm slightly disappointed you didn't do an inverted polarity null test right at the end there with your conversions you did. -.- :-D. I *thought* I heard a slight loss of high end, but, maybe it was just placebo, especially since between 4 and 20, if 4 was audible, you'd expect 20 to be easy to hear. But it would be interesting to see more sort of scientifically what amount of difference there may or may not have been. Look forward to more content. Your channel kicks ass!

[@EtcEtcAndEtc]

Thank you, Eric, this is going to be the best thing to happen online this year. Bit like Dave king's Rational Funk series but not as iconoclastic

[@markv2360]

EtcEtcAndEtc Definitely not as iconoclastic 😂

[@EtcEtcAndEtc]

@@markv2360 impossible, right? Love that series, wish he'd do another. Very useful shows, in a different way

[@onesteprecordingstudio3086]

Keep doing this man!

[@ivomatic13]

Eric you are amazing, thank you!

[@paulsmith1843]

Thanks so much, Eric!

[@filtafacta]

Loving that Kissing Tree. Awesome stuff all round! Was loving the bass hard left in that old school way but then it jumps top centre come the next chorus? What's the thinking there?

[@peterbrandt7911]

Great! Simply great! If you ever consider to make a diy Neve style pre with eq, that'll be great. Either way, great content.

[@OverdriveMusic]

Oh my GODDDDD those drums!!!! Jeeeeezzzz!!!

[@tollakf]

Wow! That was super cool stuff! And hands down impressive. Serious dedication! Btw, did you do a degradation comparison with your converters?

[@user-cf5bb2cj7g]

Very nice exploration here. A few questions sprang to mind and at the end with the multi conversion experiment: percussion may not reveal as much as content with overtones--violin or voice for example--and there is no mix context with drums soloed: would it be probable that some stems or aux sends may get converted more times than others in the ITB/break-out technique? some latency smearing kind of thing could happen... Thanks for breaking this down for me, I have been challenged wrapping my mind around the patchbay/routing to build something similar.

[@nunoandradebluesdrive]

Man..great stuff.

[@pauldeceglie6914]

Love your ingenuity on this. Impressive. How to console without a console.

[@TallerdelSebaRehbein]

Thanks! Greetings from Chile ✌️

[@MiguelNoyola1]

Close but the out of the box version the low end is tighter vs in the box. Especially felt in the Clave and bottom end.

[@lestudioproaudio]

Please post a link for the formula and documents to wire the summing mixer. Love this video series and please continue with tech stuff like explaining the circuits in the Undertone products!!

[@mrwev]

Done!

[@JAMStudiosIE]

Inspiring and amazing Eric. You should definitely consider developing it further to commercial product. Do you have an electronics background or how on earth do you know how to go about this? Also, the string arrangement is so cool. I’d love you to break down how you came up with it and what overdubs that single player did to make it sound like that.

[@mrwev]

I never went to school for electrical engineering. My father was an aerospace engineer so I grew up around it. Most everything I know about electrical engineering I have learned from Larry Jasper. He designs the circuitry for Undertone Audio. He is an unbelievably brilliant human being. I consulted with him on this summing mixer project. I will at some point go through the string layering recording thing, I did a bunch of it on this most recent record and got the best results yet. I may wait till the fall so I can show one of those songs :)