Expensive Cards Not Worth Their Price | Commander Clash Podcast 115

These cards are expensive, but that doesn't mean they're good! Avoid these expensive cards!
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[@crss29]

Richard, bless his heart, is a good moderator, and then he goes full flatearther.

[@vahnthemannraseru1810]

No one accepts proxies

[@davbry2011]

@@vahnthemannraseru1810 I do.

[@PaulSzkibik]

@@vahnthemannraseru1810 not in your area maybe.

[@WarbossMorgorTeefsmasha]

"cyclonic rift is bad cus bad players use it wrong" wild take

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@vahnthemannraseru1810 everyone is fine with proxies and anyone who isnt also isnt really worth playing with.

[@Ranis555]

I've been listening to this podcast for a little over a year and I'm finally convinced that Richard is just a huge troll in disguise.

[@Arufonsa1]

I would pay money for one of them to just call him on it. Just tell him he is a flat earther to his face on the podcast.

[@captaindaddd6055]

I know this is a joke but like I have never seen takes that are so seemingly trollish like his are. If he comes out one day and says he trolls, I don't think I'll be surprised. His takes are so out of touch and terrible

[@Sup4ast4r]

His rift take was so bad it hurt my soul.

[@juliusmarty9842]

it's so funny how his argument about Damnation is that "his philosophy is to answer the entire board" 58:14, and yet think that Cyclonic rift is bad. That does not make any sense sir. what?

[@PulledPurk]

@@Arufonsa1 I hsaw the beard guy ask him once like "Really? when do you use it? really?" and the other guy is like "well I never draw it" cop out

[@the_names_rob]

Cyclonic Rift also gets rid of tokens so its not a complete redeploy

[@PaulSzkibik]

On the other hand, all ETB-effects trigger again and ETB is on so much stuff. Still not convinced that it's actively BAD.

[@juliusmarty9842]

@@PaulSzkibik you can of course argue that, like any other magic card that deals with stuff on the board, the timing of when you would use the spell is what's crucial. These cards are good because if the player uses it right, it either will have an extremely huge impact on the board or it would win them the game.

[@baconsir1159]

Gotta disagree with Crim here 100% on Esper Sentinel. Even with 0 synergy, it’s 1 mana draw 2-3 minimum that they have to remove AND it taxes them. It’s probably one of the most efficient cards in the whole format, and an auto-include in every deck with white. It could be double that price and I’d at least understand.

[@QuidBeliever]

I think the esper sentinel take was almost as hot as the cyc rift one

[@mrpandabites]

I only have Cyclonic Rift in two decks, but every time I have played it, it was into someone's alpha strike and I won the game the next turn.

[@certanmike]

Do you just not spend your mana?

[@Dynme]

@@certanmike When I see a scary board state that could kill me and I have Cyc Rift in hand? No. Last time I played it, I expected the Krenko player to my right to combo off next turn, but the Arcades player across from me gave me a huge gift with a wheel spell. Get rid of everyone's fast mana plus disrupt the goblins? Yes, please!

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@Dynme as much of a meme as it as at this point a litteral fog is 1 mana for the exact same job if you win on the backswing

[@Dynme]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 True, but I was nowhere near a winning position for the deck I was playing. Used Rift to reset the board and bought time to turtle. Eventually won, but it was several turns later.

[@matthewdisbrow507]

the idea behind the doubling season is not that you need to use both sides in a single deck. It is that you can also just transplant it into two different decks as well.

[@otakumeta]

Zaxara uses both sides of doubling season VIGOROUSLY

[@PalPlays]

Doesn't...one of the tokens just die?

[@jameshogan4679]

My treasure golgari golem deck with Ich tek squeezea every drop out of doubling season and primal vigor lol

[@collinbeal]

​@@PalPlaysno, because the counters are part of the same ability. Same reason copying an X spell works. In order for it not to work, you have to have a creature enter as a copy of the hydra token rather than being subject to a doubling replacement effect

[@jjvh500]

Plenty of decks make such guys use of it!! Magus Lucea Kane loves it in the same way as Zaxara. But I've also got a Myrkul Fungus/Saproling deck and an Atraxa Incubate deck. Both are trying to use tokens and counters in huge numbers. I've even got a Greta, Sweettooth Scourge, deck that loves having ridiculous amounts of food. I don't have much in the +1/+1 counter camp in that deck, but between Greta and Mazlrek, Kraul Death Priest, I have enough +1/+1 counters that I would love the Doubling Season in there!

[@mark5617]

I mean, Gyrus can use both sides of it and can get it back super easily if it's milled. Now the question is, should you, as I've been running Gyrus, since it released without it and never felt the need to jam it right in there over the other 98 proves a deck can get value from it but now we have reached the ceiling of if its needed and its not. Very specifically talking about a commander who uses both sides.

[@YellowEyedPuggle]

Seth to me always has the most rational justifications on cards.

[@zapsdiputs]

Sylvan doesn't just guarantee draw, it's also like a free brain storm every upkeep...

[@xdelbarrio]

not really since its only the cards you draw that turn, its like a worse scry since you cant send the cards you dont want to the bottom, but as seth said with shuffling it become way better as you can see 3 new cards every turn

[@Hyxtrem]

@@xdelbarrio This is why you play Fetchlands buddy. Ok it's not lvl 6 or 7 Decks. But draw 3 or Brainstorm then fetch. It's an awesome draw engine for only 2 mana. It ends game way more than expected. It's a huge card. it's worth it's price, especially since it's last reprint.

[@craigstuckey319]

Yeah. Saying Sylvan Library is anything less than a fantastic card is asinine. I will say, people often forget about Mirri's Guile.

[@w.s6124]

@@xdelbarrio Fetch lands? other shuffle effects. Fair its not a brainstorm but still quite powerful.

[@ComfyDents]

Honestly I think Treasure Map is better than Sylvan Library. It can bottom scry without any help, smothes the early turns out and then flipped it is both card draw or ramp. Land ramp! It also has many random synergies. Have a random Treasure token? Draw a card. Have no treasure but a bounce land? Better than to continue top deck mode. Sylvan can draw two next turn. Sure but than everybody will attack you to stop wanting to pay anymore. I would rather play a random Harmonise. I saw Sylvan in a Trostani deck once. They made so much life and paid each turn and won the arch enemy. There it is good. But in a random deck? Nah. Especially not for that price.

[@networkzanimex]

Sylvan Library still has a place in green-based creature decks because, ironically, it doesn't depend on creatures. If all of your card draw spells need you to have a board (whether they be drawing cards based on number of creatures, power/toughness, attacking, etc), then your card advantage suite has the glaring weakness of being absolutley useless after a sweeper. I think that the lionshare of card advantage being creature-centric is fine. But, not diversifying can come to bite you.

[@lucasbreton4143]

Esper Sentinel and Force of negation are not expensive because of commander tho, it's cause of modern

[@manwithabasicprofilepic]

So do all of the cheaper blue reset board wipes

[@pretends2know]

The funny thing for me is that Richard's core argument for why Cyclonic Rift is overrated amounts to "People don't know how to use this card optimally."

[@flexoffender8159]

Also that cyclonic rift take was so horrible it caused me physical pain, i Couldn't imagine thinking cyclonic rift was bad.

[@singularleaf3895]

Cyc Rift is a bad board wipe and its doesnt win games its more often a win more card. The only thing that makes it worth it is that its a Blue card were all of the other board wipes are somehow worse.

[@25_Cats_in_a_Trenchcoat]

​@@singularleaf3895I really like fade away in blue decks

[@faerie7dragon]

I wish Richard stopped trolling.

[@satansamael666]

⁠@@singularleaf3895it’s so much more than a win more card, it’s a supercharged Silence with an option to single spot removal some hate piece. It’s absolutely amazing it’s what it is.

[@Metroid23456]

@@singularleaf3895 99 times out of a hundred Cyclonic Rift just prolongs the game rather than winning it. Ideally someone casts it, untaps, and wins that turn, but in practice I've maybe seen this happen like once. I'd rather just play white and actually wrath the board.

[@zapzap7360]

On doubling season, I feel like counters and tokens often go pretty well together. Think Ghave. I run a monogreen tyranids/hydras deck with Old One Eye at the helm. The deck is mainly counters, with a few token cards sprinkled in (33 vs 7), but one of those is my commander. So I'm always at least getting an extra 5/5 for a card that is good enough in my deck on it's own. It won't be a hit in every deck, but it will in enough to be noteworthy

[@bryanleblanc5648]

Due to the recent reprint in WOE, Primal Vigor (which does everything that Doubling Season does unless you care about counters that are NOT +1 counters) is $5. So, unless you are in some strange counter deck like Brokers Precon/Sparra or Arwen or a superfriend deck, you should just buy and play Primal Vigor and not Doubling Season

[@retrofuturistJL]

Doubling season doesn't double your opponents counters and tokens, so it SHOULD only be 5.@@bryanleblanc5648

[@VexylObby]

Sometimes. I think sticking it into a deck that has 2 cards that do the other thing that DS does, is just not worth it. You might as well spend half of the money for a cheaper CMC card that does the exact effect you are looking for.

[@RandomHobo]

Gimbal from the March of the Machine decks also comes to mind for Doubling season. He allows you to get immediate benefit from playing it on turn 5/6 while he's out because you get 2 8/8s instead of 1 4/4 which gets out of hand really quickly. Plus there's some cards in the precon that deal with counters, specifically sandsteppe war riders which bolsters based on the amount of differently named artifact tokens.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

I swear Richard is trying to trigger us with these absurd hot takes

[@petrseghman4283]

I am just starting the video, but even now I think I'm gonna agree with Richard. Will come back to report. :D

[@bribri234]

Richard usually has the worst takes lol

[@GOCPproductions]

I think he’s just kinda stupid

[@Metroid23456]

I watch the podcast for the spicy Richard hot takes.

[@Chpow01]

I am thinking Richard is dumb as a box of rocks.... And annoying... StP, Path to exile, cyclonic rift, and half a dozen other cards he thinks are terrible.. yet relies on other people to play because he can't solve any of the problems on the board.

[@Kryptnyt]

I think Sylvan Library is still a powerhouse. Cards that make more opening hands keepable are awesome. Sylvan does a better job at ensuring you hit those land drops than just about any other card in the game in the 2cmc range. Cards like Search for Ascanta and the rare 2 cmc draw 2 spell like Night's Whisper and Expressive Iteration are excellent cards that do a poor imitation.

[@cylascrannell5917]

Sylvan Library does more for you as your game knowledge goes up. Being able to manipulate the top card of your library and draw extra cards in very strong for 2 mana in green. It works with the 1 mana dorks on curve and can really turn the tide of a losing game using fetchlands and green land tutors. Forget green even, there are very few cards in the game that can let you see as many cards as sylvan library does. The card is great.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

stop playing too few lands and just use good draw instead

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@cylascrannell5917 how you giving your green dorks haste on turn 1?

[@Spaced92]

I had no opinion about it beforehand but all the arguments against Damnation were about different cards that cost twice as much and do different things, Richard and Tomer helped make the case for Damnation IMO. Even busted, three times as expensive cards like the meathook massacre, people are too distracted by the upside and not the cost. 4 mana wrath is still good.

[@25_Cats_in_a_Trenchcoat]

Right. It's the most efficient for 4 mana and now you can beseech it mmm

[@luketfer]

Yup Damnation is around $10, Toxic Deluge is around $8ish...Meathook Massacre is at least over double what Damnation costs...all the other board wipes that were mentioned are janky, expensive in terms of mana cost or highly situational. As pointed out by Seth...there are VERY limited complete boardwipes in Monoblack that are cost effective since you've got, at best, 3, one of which is highly expensive.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@luketfer meathook is objectively not cost effective. massacre i think is the actual 3rd one, but these dumb dumbs dont play basica so they cant use it i think that was the name at least -1 for each swamp

[@Willsr14]

Commander Clash Podcast drinking game: Take a shot every time Richard starts his sentence with 'like..' and ends it with 'right?'

[@alkhemia23]

do you want us to die?

[@pablowarcraft]

It's like this dude wants to kill us all, right?

[@oafkad]

To answer the question about rad Black Wraths. Black Sun's Zenith. It becomes more and more common the longer the game goes on. I love it.

[@icmike0]

Also seeing a decent amount of the two exile board wipes, nightmare unmaking/extinction event, that can be one-sided either odd/even cmc or higher/lower power than hand size

[@schadenfreude4846]

I just took psychic damage listening to richard talk about cyc rift

[@poipoi9816]

it's kind of wild that ancient copper is 2.5x as expensive as the next dragon in that cycle

[@mathewdebol923]

Cheaper to cast and that kind of mana boost is crazy

[@herpderp66]

Red dragon orb gives haste. Many ways to give haste in red. All of the Ancient dragons are terrible without haste.

[@zsorens4570]

Dragon decks want mana, he is the cheapest, he is the right dragon color, red has the most haste enabling. White/Blue aren't getting that much mana that fast, Green has better ways to get counters on things and black has many cheaper resurrection cards.

[@brainpower45]

I love how the crew is like "Timeless Lotus? Yeah, that's worth $12, there's nothing else equivalent out there for that slot" while Prismatic Geoscope is over here like "Am I a joke to you?" In a 5 color deck they're THE SAME CARD except geoscope let's you make any combination of mana and only costs $.83

[@shadowfox513]

I agree with you, had that card in my jodah deck. That being said, neither card is very good but for 1 dollar, I suppose the geoscope might be worth? It's just limited to four or five mana decks so not very versatile

[@bennettwadekamper8238]

Having all 5 basics is not guaranteed. I think the 5 mana rock let's you for sure cast your commander if you get mana screwed.

[@shadowfox513]

you don't need all 5 basics, just the types. Between triomes and shocks, you can have full domain by turn two, and even in a basic heavy budget build, with all of the green land fetchers, you'll be pretty close, if not at full domain by the time geoscope comes down

[@brainpower45]

@bennettwadekamper8238 are you really not playing fetch/shock/triome mana bases in your 5 color decks where you spend over $10 on mana rocks? Don't get me wrong, I don't especially like either card, because a 5 mana tapped mana rock is pretty sketchy, but I'd rather have one that can at least make any combination of colors.

[@bennettwadekamper8238]

@@brainpower45 Im not used to playing with actual good mana bases. I wouldn't spend $10 for a mana rock.

[@discoviolenza1984]

Mtg Goldfish should do a draft next season like they did on Game Nights where everyone gets to draft six of each card type that they get to use the next season and the other players can't use chosen picks.

[@andrewwiebe1384]

they should do an actual draft of the vintage cube draft by sandydog

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

Didn’t see that episode. What do you mean exactly? Six cards per card type? Or just one each for the six main nonland types? And for the whole season? So one of them could call dibs on Rhystic, Crypt, Craterhoof, Guardianship, Demonic, and Ugin and just win a disproportionate number of games? There are a lot of ways to interpret this lol.

[@discoviolenza1984]

I was wrong it was a command zone episode, that will effect an up coming game knights episode. In episode each person drafted six equipment cards and the idea was these are the six equipment pieces you can play in your decks and the other players can't use them. I was thinking that the Clash players should do something like that for an upcoming season maybe chosing from six of each card type (6 sorceries, 6 equipment 6 creatures, 6 enchantments ect....). excluding viewer submitted weeks or Cedh weeeks

[@Michael-yx1wi]

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai Do you understand how a draft works?

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

@@discoviolenza1984 That sounds like a lot of cards to make unavailable for each other for a whole season. Maybe just one card each?

[@Schwenne1994]

I actually can't believe they didn't have Mana Crypt on the list. That card is worth way to much money to ever be worth it outside of cedh

[@craigstuckey319]

I mean, it's a free 2 mana. If Sol Ring wasn't reprinted every 15 seconds it too would be a $100 card. And for the people complaining it should be banned, you think you're getting crushed by Mana Crypt and Mana Vault now.....

[@9forMortalMen]

Mana crypt is straight up busted. Even in casual, it’s straight up busted.

[@scottricks1676]

Actually thought that was gonna be 1st on the list! Def not worth its price tag for most commander players. I have one I Needa just sell. Never gets added to a deck.

[@w.s6124]

Its complete insanety even in casual. Maybe best card in the format together with dockside and some others but thats a diffrent discussion. Im not saying its worth 180 but it def is absurdly strong.

[@markusaurelius83]

This card is absurdly expensive, but it substantially increases your winrate.. just like Sol Ring does. Your 2 -3 Turns faster. :/

[@thekopekemaster]

The only deck I've had Doubling Season in is my Slimefoot deck, where it REALLY wants both sides - it's a Thallid deck, so doubling the number of spore counters you get is really big for the deck. It effectively quadruples your saproling generation. Edit - just saying to give another example of a deck that uses both sides. I think that it's very likely that Doubling Season is very overplayed and isn't worth it for many decks.

[@ian_lambert-knight]

I run it in Ghave and it is pretty good there

[@jamesoakley9333]

​@@ian_lambert-knightsame. Been piloting the Guru since commander went official as nd I started with the precon.

[@Level_1_Frog]

23:10 - you forgot about fungus decks! You definitely want Doubling Season specifically because it doubles the amount of saproling tokens you make as well as double the amount of 'spore' counters you generate :)

[@Benislionheart]

Doubling season is worth the price - so worth it, I bought one as I listened to this show - I didn’t realise it had dived in price. Thanks!

[@sonchezz]

I own all of the older cards on this list. As someone who bought all these cards long before they became so pricey, I've just always played with these cards, and if a deck would want one of these, it feels unfinished to me without these. Recently though I've actually replaced all of them with proxies. I haven't sold them, but I either leave them at home or in a case near my decks and use the proxies as true proxy. I'm just getting to the point I'd rather not walk around with thousands in my commander bag, and I personally have no issue with other players playing them without owning them, so what better way. Doubling Season does all types of counters, most other counter-adding cards outside of proliferate only do +1/+1 counters. Which gives it a 3rd home in some janky non +1/+1 counter decks as well. In my personal play experience March of Swirling mists has performed better than Cyclonic Rift. Although they are not the same cards at all, they can react to very similar situations by temporarily dealing with a problem board (depending on cast time, March actually denies those cards longer) and March is much more versatile. I do tend to still play both as the Rift doesn't target and it's still a strong way to deal with the board, probably my #2 blue card. I would argue that Wheel is very strong if played properly (unfairly) and bad catch-up draw if played inappropriately or at an inopportune time, and IMO every time I have played Wheel of Misfortune it has been a trap card that is not worth playing at all. Thanks for the fun topic.

[@sethchapman1425]

Black Sun Zenith is pretty good, plus gets rid of indestructible.

[@kylegonewild]

Also anything that survives is severely crippled and easier to remove with all the random damage the game has these days.

[@TaskMaster5]

Black Sun is such a great board wipe and is severely underplayed in my area. People never expect it.

[@Spirited_skiing]

I’m usually on board for richard’s hot takes, but boy oh boy his cyc rift take is wild. I wouldn’t spend money on cyc rift, but it’s because it’s too strong and not fun to play against, not too weak

[@nathanw4692]

Same, trying to find other options because its almost too good to be fun.

[@xaropevic7918]

It is really good, but I do think that cyclonic rift is a liiiittle overrated, is arguably among the best board wipes, and for what it does (either being an instant, or being one sided) and is better than every card on that and is by far the board wipe that is the most saltyworthy (excluding land board wipes) because it is one sided. But it is in top 14 saltiest card in edhrec in this year, way above than it should be, land board wipe is worse, rhistic study and smothering tithe is worse, free counterspells are worse, hokori dust drinker is worse, a lot of cascade cards are worse, jin gitaxias core augur is worse, mono U urza is worse, atraxa grand unifier is worse, rising waters is worse, so cyclonic rift should be like, top 25ish? Also definitely overpriced, should've been like 15-20 dollars at least?

[@bennettstokes195]

Rift is really really really strong, especially if your running decent interaction, or looping it. On mtgo I used to play it in my morph deck but it was way too strong.

[@9807036]

So a fun thing I’ve been doing is in my Phylath, World Sculptor landfall deck uses doubling season as a core piece to a win. I’ve got doubling season with avenger of zendikar and all will be one, make way too many tokens, put an insane number of counters on them, then watch nature eat the table if the burn doesn’t end it all. 27:39

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Ghave and Doubling Season literally go hand in hand.

[@Rurrikk]

This was the commander I have that came to mind. Also magus luca cane.

[@gabriel342]

Ghave, Doubling Season and Ashnod's Alter Combo :)

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

This was one of my first 3 commander decks. At the time Doubling season was ~$30 so it was worth for me.

[@Kay_Drechsler]

I really like this podcast. Always makes me happy to hear expert's takes on certain cards. In this episode Tomer is just jumping over Ghave as a commander who's so severely profiting from Doubling season that it just ends games.

[@ChadZeluff]

I think Doubling Season at $40 is worth, and at $80 it was not.

[@singularleaf3895]

$80 is usually worth it imo if its gonna be the card a lot of my decks, or its a linchpin in my primarily decks. Zaxara is one of if not my favorite deck to use and Doubling season i would say it absolutely worth it for me to buy it at $80 but i drew 4 or 5 out of packs years ago so i didnt need to. And i just proxy if i need more

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

I honestly think it’s too slow in a lot of metas to be worth playing anymore. Except in superfriends, I agree with everyone on that. In token decks, 5 mana to cast, doesn’t do anything right away, has to make it around the table with a target on it once to benefit from it, then you make a bunch of tokens and have to wait another turn cycle to use those. In +1 counter decks there are just faster, more efficient, and more budget alternatives all over the place. A good +1 counter deck can frequently win before Season can really pay out.

[@jmnaccount]

For mono-black board wipes, Living Death should also be counted! It can potentially reanimate your opponents graveyard, but in any deck that runs I make sure to also run a couple of graveyard hate cards!

[@RenardAgrume]

I play Sylvan Library in my Atraxa deck and to me just the fact that I can choose which out of 3 cards I get to pick every draw step is insane. Most of the time I don't even pay life (unless I really need to dig for an answer or a land, or if I'm already full of mana and/or life) is it just me that thinks that "at your upkeep look at the top 3 cards and draw one of those" is actually really good (and worth the price)?

[@swiftdragonrider]

There is a 1 coat enchantment that does that

[@RenardAgrume]

@@swiftdragonrider yeah but I bet it's not as flexible as Sylvan Library

[@swiftdragonrider]

@@RenardAgrume Mirri's Guile is the card and it lets you pick which of the top 3 your draw every turn. if you arent drawing you are overpaying by a mana.

[@_Asleep_]

That's actually worth more than sylvan lol

[@MakeVarahHappen]

What Richard is seeing that the others sometimes miss is that even if a card isn't creme de la creme, if it goes in every deck, it's a better investment than a perfect card for one deck.

[@bryanleblanc5648]

He can see how cards are worth more the more decks they fit in... but can he see why Cyclonic Rift is good? (Rifts are for kids, old man!)

[@IzzetTempo]

True! But the whole point of this ep is cards you can find cheaper replacements for and some folk just don't wanna spend $40 on a card. Also I've found that once I've won a game or five off the back of a $40 card, I just don't wanna play it anymore cuz it sorta feels pay to win.

[@singularleaf3895]

Doubling season is a card that goes with basically every one of my green decks. Its worth up to $80.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@IzzetTempo That's not the point of the pod. The point of the pod is cards that aren't worth the cost and the more decks a card goes in the more it's worth.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@singularleaf3895 you need to build better green decks that card is bad.

[@guisseppimelon8224]

Sylvan is definitely worth it at $20, you don’t absolutely need it but it does improve any deck it’s a part of

[@archaonczech6073]

Its powerhouse with fetch lands...

[@w.s6124]

not every deck. Its a bit cluncky in ad nause lists like NBC-Najeela.

[@TheLongIslandDashExperience]

I use Doubling Season in my Glissa Herald of Predation deck who makes 2 incubate tokens which comes out with 2 +1/+1 counters so with doubling season it’s 4 tokens with 4 +1/+1 counters which is nice.

[@Umar0th]

In my Korvold Treasure deck, Doubling Season tends to be more of a priority target than not.

[@burnsboy101]

Parallel lives better and cheaper

[@cowsticker9618]

What an awful deck to play against too!

[@Umar0th]

@@burnsboy101 Parallel lives doesn't make Korvold's and Juri's +1/+1 counters explode like Doubling Season does. Nor does it make Descent into Avernus, Black Market explode.

[@Mensch777]

I like that some cards are "money-banned". There are quite a few powerful cards that would just be in every deck if they weren't so expensive so in pods that don't use that many proxies they are just not there which I think is actually nice

[@noesunyoutuber7680]

...Right up until someone in the pod has more money than everyone else, and now it's a problem. Game balance should not be based on outside market forces.

[@michaelcollins4534]

​@noesunyoutuber7680 and then that person realizes the issue and takes the cards out. Rule 0 ya know

[@captaindb4998]

I have ALL 10 duals (revised) in my Tiamat deck. I had 7 of them from when i played in high school, bought the other 3 just to have one of each. 😊

[@tannerlawrence4287]

The prices they listed tend to go off of tcg player which has increased prices. I tend to choose eBay because of the variety and their card guarantee. I’ve bought many and I’m very happy with my purchases.

[@Balue7]

Oldie but a goodie. Primal Vigor came in the Prossh pre built, but immediately got moved to my Marath. Found Doubling Season and it was a slam dunk.

[@AWESMATHEGREAT]

I agree with Tomer, Doubling Season is only really good when you're using both halves. Either half has dupes that are more mana efficient and/or are cheaper.

[@w.s6124]

You ever plyaed with or against Doulbling season? Its strong even if only 1 half is used and if you use both (which happens quite consistently in the average casual deck) it becomes just a must-answer threat...

[@trikovi1628]

I totally agree that Doubling Season is overrated especially in +1/+1 counters decks, cause most of those decks don't place a bunch of counters all at once they place 1 on each of their creatures multiple times. So hardened scales is just doubling season but 4 less mana and there are a bunch of creatures with the hardened scales effect

[@nycstreetpoet]

Jeweled Lotus take: I have Jeweled Lotus (I opened one) in my Sheoldred, the Apocalypse deck. There’s something wonderful about getting my commander out turn 1, and I’m *already* the archenemy because everyone hates Sheoldred.

[@matthewmccreight9854]

To the doubling season topic: Ghave, guru of spores... outside of planeswalkers that's really the only commander that comes to mind that breaks more than 1 part of its effects very easily, and at one time

[@gragrim]

There is a glaring downside to doubling season.. you spend 5 mana, and (usually) do NOTHING to the board the turn it comes out.. the higher the power level of your game/playgroup is, the WORSE doubling season becomes. "Yes, I'd like to spend 5 mana, put a scary permanent into play that effectively does nothing the turn it comes in, and pass my turn" Is playing doubling season fun? Sure.. is it worth the price? NO

[@andrewkelley6039]

Never loved Cyclonic Rift more than I do now with all these Treasure/Food/Clue synergies everywhere - you aint re-casting your 20 treasure back out. Other than that Richard was spot on with all the other cards

[@wowomah6194]

Honestly, if you're playing a two color deck or even a tri color deck, there's A LOT of dual lands that you can use and they work PERFECTLY with their play requirements like "you need an island or plains in play" or "you need two basic lands in play" or "you need two or more opponents" and so on. Nimbus Maze, Hengegate Pathway, Sea of Clouds, Prairie Stream, Skycloud Expanse, Glacial Fortress, Fortified Beachhead, Abandoned Beach (or whatever it's called) and so on (depending on which colors you're playing in of course the names change) will get you totally where you need to be plus the usual Command Tower, Reflecting Pool,

[@telisabeth]

I think Beseech the Queen is a pretty good black tutor, especially if you play a Yuriko deck or a Vampire deck with Twilight Prophet. But also very good simply for monoblack decks.

[@obadijahparks]

Damnation is really cool. I'm glad I got four secret lair version with Seb McKinnon's art.

[@Artaimus]

This is why my playgroup only uses proxies these days. Entire decks costs about 20US$. Just like Garfield intended.

[@TheSpunYarn]

My Gruul landfall deck makes incredible use of Sylvan Library. I think that dropping it turn 2 propells me so far ahead with my exploration effects and my Oracle of Mul Daya effects that on turn 6 or so Im so favored to win its nasty. It definitely still has its place in the format.

[@ADVBCAT]

The strongest argument against Jeweled Lotus is the "it will get killed" one IMO. Getting a 4-mana commander out on turn 1, or 5-mana one on turn 2, is so strong, and people will be so salty, that they will 100% run out that removal and be right to do so. And then you're down a card, the hand you kept on the basis of assuming the lotus play would work is probably crap now, and your commander costs 2 more. You're honestly probably just out of the game at that point.

[@ToeManJon11]

I think doubling season is worth the price right now because in like a year or two it's probably gonna be a 100 bucks again haha

[@Spaced92]

Idk that gets into investment discussion, I just don't think it's worth what it is right now.

[@Killmatronix]

Timeless Lotus is played in some versions of amulet in modern. Probably helps beef up the cost.

[@TeaHauss]

Great Henge does not need to be over $25, ever

[@imaginarymatter]

I think in quite a few token decks Doubling Season is win more. For example, Rhys for 6 mana can double your tokens and Ghave has plenty of Commander based comboes that don't need the additional tokens. Commander now has so many efficient token producers and Commander who can chain into more tokens that you ever need that you're often times better off with another card that isn't a 5 cmc do nothing enchant. The strength of Doubling Season I think is decks that can utilize both halves or Enchantment decks like Callix or Anikthea that can turn Doubling Season into a token and turn it into Exponential-ling Season.

[@Hat153]

I appreciate Richard bringing in some spicy takes here, even if I don't agree with the takes. It's bringing in a new perspective where I've just always thought those cards are objectively good, and helped me reevaluate them which I haven't really done since they were printed.

[@Eital2]

For Doubling Season, I'd like to use it for Ayula, since she uses both halves. Her own effect will get more 1/1 counters. Bearscape and Ayula's Influence will both benefit from the second half. Esper Sentinel is a card that I'm keen to pick up for my Zabaz Modular deck. If the day ever comes where both are $10-15 then I'll probably pick them up.

[@peterkirk8510]

Something not touched on about the duals - in 3-4c decks, it’s common enough that you’ll want 2 untapped fetchable lands that are the same colors untapped. If you play any particular deck enough you’ll know which 2 colors . Triomes are nice, but frequently not good enough.

[@cronchable]

A lot of the discussion got bogged down to "Is this card good" rather than "Is this card worth it's market price". I feel like for some cards that's a huge difference. Yes, Damnation is one of the best mono black board wipes. Yes, if you're going for power level, it's probably correct to put it in your mono black decks. But that doesn't mean the price is justified. This card isn't worth 20 dollars. You can get 5 different good black board wipes for less than half of that.

[@mjkuhnke]

Just today I was looking for a "just counters' half of doubling season for green/white. Tons of stuff for +1/+1 counters specifically but for what i wanted it was like... lae'zel, pir, and vorinclex as the only alternatives. To be fair voinclex is a pretty nice body to have on the field and his negative counters on opponents can be really incredible sometimes. Now I'm just really stuck between choosing him or doubling...

[@thatepicwizardguy]

I'd say just about any card is not worth $20+ if you're looking to get it so you can play casually. If you're looking to collect or play competitively then the value of any card can change wildly... I bought a damnation at I think $17~ and thought it was overpriced but it's also just my favorite card? so idk lol definitely depends But yeah casual commander people should almost never be spending that kind of money unless you're really happy with dumping money into the hobby to enhance whatever fun you're having. Some people love blinged decks or really love certain cards or really want specific combos or whatever and don't wanna run proxies. /Shrug but I'd say reasonably speaking $20+ is really too much across the board for a general baseline of fun commander games (Tomer has shown you can make decks wayyyyyyyyy cheap that are pretty awesome) EDIT: btw you can buy damnation for $15 and under now if you're lookin carefully. (at the time of me posting this there's multiple listings on TCGplayer 15 and under

[@ATADSP]

For the decks I make, the true dual lands would in most cases double or almost double the cost of the deck. My most expensive deck is my Sheoldred deck which is around $500, granted its monocolor, and the only reason it is so much is that I opened a Sheoldred and The One Ring in packs, it wouldn't even exist if that didn't happen because I would never fork out the money for Sheoldred or the One Ring individually. I target $200-500 per deck, so it would literally at least double my multicolor decks. Also Doubling Season needs MORE reprints. Pretty much all of these cards need reprints, ESPECIALLY the dual lands. The reserve list should be burned.

[@sarahmay3795]

I know I'm about 7 months late, but I will argue that Grismold the Dreadsower makes great use of both sides of doubling season. The number of tokens that Grismold creates are doubled, and then the +1/+1 counters from any creature token on the field dying that go on Grismold are also doubled.

[@andrueurbane7361]

Another argument in favor of Doubling Season is if you are using treasures as a significant component of your ramp strategy. It also does double duty in a deck designed around making token copies of permanents that create their own token copies. I have Gruul artifact deck designed around making copies of stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, Phyrexian Triniform, and modular creatures. It can really come out of nowhere and has solid yard recursion to rebuild if needed.

[@user-ui7gn7bo6k]

I just built a Jasmine Boreal of the Seven deck and it makes a good amount of tokens AND makes a lot of +1+1 counters. Great use for Doubling Season. Not sure I want to spend the money, but it's uniquely suited for that deck

[@choupuppy42]

Other black board wipes on the more expensive side that I like are Nightmare Unmaking, Deadly Tempest, Life's Finale, and even Necromantic Selection

[@felipeguidolin1055]

I have been gotten by Deadly Tempest way too many times

[@ms.sysbit5511]

Dead of Winter is a good one folks sleep on.

[@ggflowen]

I'm with Crim on the lotus. It was a card I wasn't willing to buy but ended up opening a copy in a draft. I use it in my Rodolf deck. It's a life gain, angel, reanimation deck and Rodolf is a 6 mana commander that doesn't usually do anything the turn you play him. For decks like that it feels like a totally fine card. I also play dark ritual in the deck and even cabal ritual since self mill is part of the strategy.

[@al8188]

Richard is on the right track about Jeweled Lotus and its typical play pattern. I was of the belief that it was too strong for casual, but after seeing s bunch of Lotus games I realized that the card disadvantage in exchange for mana was not being capitalized on. People were just running their card out there and getting punished for looking scary. However, having experienced the further cEDH-ification of casual, people are actually now flattening their mana curves and going for explosive plays off of this. It doesn't even need to win you the game on the spot in casual. If you can get your commander down early and use it's synergies same turn to get some value, maybe snipe an opposing threat at the same time, you're suddenly so far ahead. Fast mana generally is rubber-banding in casual where it went from scary, to bad, to actually effective and a few of my playgroups are contending with the extra oomph it gives commander-centric decks.

[@GSlimey]

Doubling season with rocco street chef is amazing (totally slept on commander btw)

[@josephpayton7522]

Hey goldfish crew, an idea I would love to see for an episode of the podcast is a draft like the one on game nights but the pool is the top 20 most played cards from the previous season. Each player for the next season can only play the five of the 20 they drafted for the next season. This accomplishes a big goal you have stated in the past. It avoids the same cards showing up over and over across a season. It helps you not have to make bans like cyclonic rift because it kept popping up over and over.

[@hugmonger]

I'm so glad y'all mentioned Boompile because I think I found my default board wipe. That card is silly and that is wonderful

[@gibbysg8143]

As someone who doesn’t like cyclonic rift since it’s OP, if you’re in mono blue or heavy blue two color spectral deluge is definitely the best cyclonic rift replacement that feels way more fair since it’s sorcery speed

[@DominoAmor]

I personally have replaced cyc rift with Turn About in any blue deck. Rift bores me, and the utility Turn About offers is insane. It doesn't force a board reset like rift, but it can prevent a huge attack, tap out an opponents mana on their upkeep, act as a mana ritual or a combat trick for sneaky blockers.

[@delailama736]

I don't think there are many expensive cards worth their price the more I play commander. I think what becomes so frustrating for me about commander is that you get these cards like Doubling Season or maybe Smothering Tithe, which makes some strategies much more viable but then they just turn up in every game and it gets boring. With board wipes for example, it's not the end of the world if I can't wipe the board because instead of having a 3 or 4 mana "staple" board wipe in my hand, I have a 7 mana one or something like a Coercive Portal (which is an expensive card but it's a board wipe where 3 players basically have to decide one player is a big threat) and the person I am playing against wins, it's just the end of the game and you can play again.

[@isaacrobertson4374]

It may seem weird that the overpriced tutor mentioned is cheaper than other ones mentioned but I actually agree 100% with Seth where saving for a demonic tutor or Vampiric Tutor Is worth it, or just go budget, the in between Grim Tutor just doesn’t seem remotely worth its price at all

[@AxillaryPower2]

I'm with Tomer on Doubling Season. For 40+ dollars, I want that card to be the best card in my deck, and I think Doubling Season is only that if you're a super friends deck.

[@WushuTaz]

23:10 Ghave for sure. That's the only one I can think of though since my Ghave Enchantress deck is one of my most favorite decks. It enables 4 combos in my deck. Ghave + Phyrexian Altar + Doubling Season, Ghave + Ashnod's Altar + Doubling Season, Ghave + Cryptic Trilobite + Doubling Season and Ghave + Earthcraft + Doubling Season enabling infinite man, infinite tokens and infinite death triggers that end games with things like Corpse Knight/The Meathook Massacre/Blood Artist or control board states with Grave Pact/Aura Shards.

[@antfayden4559]

The misdirection part had me in tears laughing 😂

[@thatguycam1989]

Dual lands make sense for cedh decks. Any advantage you can get, the better off you are. Say you need an untapped land type, but you only have a fetch land that gets a different color? What do you do if you already have your shockland out with that color combination?

[@MonsterCC]

Perfect way to start the day! Thanks!

[@linguaphile9415]

I got my Doubling Season for 28€ when WOE was released. I think in a Dragon tribal playing Sarkhan Unbroken it does really good work. You can tutor for all of your dragons and put them onto the battlefield the same turn you play Sarkhan. Especially if your commander is Miirym, Doubling Season is a great card. You can also double all your treasures from Ancient Copper Dragon, Old Gnawbone, Ganax, Rapacious Dragon or Dockside, which is a great pay-off for the relatively high cmc of Doubling Season. Also, in green it is relatively easy to get to the five mana you need to cast it.

[@Narkhada]

Esper Sentinel does work in my friend's Heliod life gain deck. By turn 4, it typically is already costing 4 or more mana to not let him draw a card. Timeless Lotus is nice and totally worth the cost in my Sisay, Weatherlight Captain deck, especially with Amulet of Vigor, Voltaic Key, Ioreth, and Sonic Screwdriver in the deck. It's in my Jodah the Unifier deck, too but Sisay is in there, as well.

[@highlander7462]

Black also has Mandate of Abaddon, Massacre Girl and Last One Standing in rakdos

[@VexylObby]

In all of my multicolor decks, I am already cutting dual lands that come into play untapped. There are now so many cycles that do that, that zebra lands are just not required AT ALL.

[@shumatsuplaran7251]

As or doubling season, not only is is good for planeswalkers, it's also great for an artifact deck with the right things. Many, MANY artifacts have unique counters that can ONLY be amplified with this to great effect, not to mention running in the same deck some of the vanishing enchantments to nuke more of the board, do more things, etc before saccing them. When it comes to timeless lotus, you have to think about the manabase to NOT use it. To consistently get 1 of each by turn 4-6, depending on rocks, etc, you have to spend far more than $13 when this card just kinda does it. It is value in itself in that way, as well as ignoring getting screwed out of one color by a land nuke or just not drawing one color.

[@blkvnm6003]

Esper Sentinel I believe is good. I think not only does it do card advantage, but most importantly while you're advancing your opponents have to take a detour. They either have to pivot and waste a removal spell or use mana to prevent drawing which can still postpone their plans.

[@vincentbatten4686]

The only exception for imperial seal is if you want the card on top of your deck. Miracle strategies or Yuriko. Cards that let you play cards off the top.

[@TaskMaster5]

I like how almost contentious the Doubling Season convo was. Like, it's a powerful card but I tend to agree it's just not worth its price tag. Every time I ran it back before it became 50+ dollars I'd get targeted hard so I wouldn't token or +1/+1 swarm and start clipping huge chunks of people's life totals. Or it was a card I had to hold in hand for several turns AFTER I'm able to cast it so I get value immediately and start doing some damage so I'm not just outright telegraphing what I'm about to do. I feel it's five mana that is not well spent if anyone is running even a half hearted amount of removal because they're going to get rid of it ASAP anyway, if not immediately (or outright countered). I've cut it from a lot of my decks and instead opted for the incremental ones like Hardened Scales, Pir, Good Fortune Unicorn, etc. Having multiple means of producing extra +1/+1 counters and just having better token generators on their own has worked better for me in the long haul. Less 'generic' than Doubling Season but also means I don't get pressured nearly as hard as I would if I slap that card on the table. Too much money to 'invest' in a card that gets me blown out of a game every time.

[@DaKareerKilla]

On the original duals, I've seen players in my area with the attitude "you shouldn't proxy them if you aren't willing to buy them" which is so weird to me. Like I can sort of see them argument if it's something like Gaea's Cradle, because that's actually a strong card that will increase your chances of winning.

[@Magicannon_]

I picked up my first bundle since Fat Packs were a thing with the new Eldrane release and the enchanted tales handed me both Doubling Season and Primal Vigor. I kind of had to build something that would use them, so I settled on Rocco, Street Chef which makes food tokens and dishes out +1/+1 counters. I do agree that if you are a deck that focuses only on one aspect, there are better options such as the aforementioned Annointed Procession and Parallel Lives for tokens and most of the time you can get away with Branching Evolution. Further with 1/1 counters, a lot of the time you are adding one at a time and can get away with Hardened Scales, Conclave Mentor, the new Ozolith, or Kami of Whispered Hopes. Doubling Season should be run if you are taking advantage of the full text, or Superfriends.

[@IzzetTempo]

For Esper Sentinel, there are a ton of other white draw spells that you could play that are waaaay cheaper and are frequently much better late game than ES. Outside of enchantress/equipment trigger style effects you could play: Mangara the Diplomat ($1) Alms Collector ($1.50) Dawn of a New Age ($4) Firemane Commando ($3.50) Chivalric Alliance ($4) Staff of the Storyteller ($4) Glimmer Lens ($.50) Tocasia's Welcome ($3) Folk Hero ($1.50) Archivist of Oghma ($6.40) Master of Ceremonies ($3) Welcoming Vampire ($2.5) I built a deck around mono-white card draw and it always has a ton of cards in hand! And Esper Sentinel is pretty good turn 1 but after like turn 3-4 it does very little. All the above cards I would say are better after turn 3-4 than Esper Sentinel. Master of Ceremonies itself is way underrated and I think more people should play that.

[@noesunyoutuber7680]

I think one of the things that appeals to people about Sentinel is the higher ceiling. Staff of the Storyteller cannot draw you more than one card per turn cycle. Neither can most of the others you listed (even Welcoming Vampire - how many cards actually make a token at instant speed in White that are good?). Esper Sentinel can draw you three.

[@IzzetTempo]

@@noesunyoutuber7680 I mean some of these can but for the most part sure. i still think they're all better after turn 3 than Sentinel and they are all without exception less fragile

[@VowNix]

Doubling season is NOT worth the price. It is to expensive for the ability and only fits in certain decks that take adv of both. I have it in my UG kicker deck, because Verazol actually cares about both 😅

[@flexoffender8159]

I think doubling season is absolutely worth it. What the people against it in the video seemed to miss is that you don't need one deck that takes advantage of both sides. It's the kind of card where any player will probably build a dozen or more decks that it would be good in. A lot of players I know don't have the money to have dozens of fully assembled decks with their own unique copies of each card, they have a small handfull of decks that share staples and they keep their decklists on tappedout and take the expensive cards out of their decks and reuse them throughout multiple decks. So with doubling season you have a card you can put in sooooo many decks and it feels amazing. Superfriends, tokens, +1+1 counters, any deck where your commander is a planeswalker, and this one card is a bomb in all of them.

[@-homerow-]

13:02 My Tutors va Budget strategy is to splurge on the tutor target first Even if I want to optimize a deck lands are first, then ramp, card draw, then win cons, then get best option for tutors as a final way to fully optimize

[@-homerow-]

I found myself not playing Green or Black on CEDH just cuz it's too easy and there are too many cookie cutter auto includes in every green and black CEDH deck. Just my opinion

[@pokedadsam9041]

1:19:26 kind of, but if you play a sol ring and are dropping timeless lotus t3-t4, you have less lands on the board for miraris wake.