Cards That Quietly Win Games | Commander Clash Podcast 143

[@paulhedges4625]

Tomer's face when Richard said he runs 4 basics in his mono black deck! I feel you, Tomer! I love basics! I unironically run 18 basics in my jund deck

[@MinoGozzo]

After all the basic/nonbasic debate I expect Tomer to come back next season with a temur deck running blood moon, back to basics, wave of vitriol, from the ashes and ruination

[@theelectricant98]

I would love that

[@Lucarioguild7]

I love wave of vitriol so much, non basic land hate really needs to make a comeback

[@Pengu92]

Richard's Field of the Dead defense is MtG's equivalent to the OJ Acquittal

[@xaxscratchxax926]

If the glove don't fit you must acquit.

[@iambensummers]

Open the Way's true secret power is you don't have to shuffle afterward

[@Kestral287]

Honestly the upside of that is real.

[@xaxscratchxax926]

I thought shuffling was a good thing? Can you explain why you wouldn't want to shuffle after that play?

[@Kestral287]

@xaxscratchxax926 So the power reason - generally if you scry a card to the bottom it's not one you want again. It also gives you a bunch of deck knowledge to know that you won't see X or Y card, which can inform play patterns. But the practical reason is that commander decks are big and shuffling sucks.

[@thechestrockfield]

If you don't shuffle, though, you don't get the deck-thinning benefit you do from other forms of land ramp...

[@Kestral287]

Deck thinning operates on basis points and is rapidly outpaced by deck knowledge

[@mct685]

I've come to the conclusion that playing broken utility lands is basically exploiting the bug of the format of lands being untouchable.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

Yeah, if I see people playing utility lands, I designated them a viable target for all the land destruction that I run but don't always play.

[@RLKC8]

The community makes it a feature 😢

[@superstupid667]

Targeted land destruction is ok. Only destroying all lands is bad. If your mana screwing someone your bad. If you are answering a card giving them value then your fine.

[@Yourbeautiful666]

Just blow them up. If land destruction furthers your game plan and puts your opponents behind, that’s just good play, taking advantage of strengths that come with it.

[@aaronmiller1009]

Running urza’s sylex in every white deck is becoming more and more necessary, I wish there were more effects like this

[@Sinistra359]

Tomer, I think it's time for you to start playing blood moon effects to show them the power of basics! Lol

[@samuelrobinson4638]

100%, maybe these effects should just be normalised across the format anyway. Unless play suuuper casual decks

[@BudgetCommanderStreams]

(Tomer here) I generally avoid "stax" cards (strong mana-denial). I'd argue that there's already plenty of reasons to run basics, like Land Tax, basic land ramp, High Tide, etc.

[@Sinistra359]

@@BudgetCommanderStreams I understand...but please will you play it just once?!? It would be so funny! 😂 make them respect basics! Lol

[@Kestral287]

@@BudgetCommanderStreams You've just gotta break out werewolves again. They can't be mad at a moon card in werewolves.

[@thatonedudejake]

​@@Kestral287 Based

[@sanfranfan53]

There are a number of players that don’t realize that Blind Obedience can be played in ANY white deck, even mono-white.

[@dogmonolith]

is that true? I thought since it has the orzhov symbol you cant

[@WikkitKlown]

Yes it's true the hybrid mana symbol is reminder text so it's not included in the color identity

[@Midragor]

Is there alot of other effects like exort that bypass this rule ??

[@Dumplestiltzken]

​@@Midragor Not that I know of

[@captaindb4998]

Came to say this. Reminder text (in brackets) does not count towards colour identity.

[@mfitkin]

I’m glad Seth shouted out all MDFC lands, I put 1-4 of them in basically every deck. I would have picked Bala Ged Recovery as the card for winning silently though. I’ve played it as the sanctuary so many times, but I’ve pulled my wincon out of my graveyard just as often.

[@jaredwright1655]

Double for Ondu Inversion. What a game changing topdeck that I'm happy to play as a turn 1 land.

[@monhunfox1401]

Agreed. Bala Ged Recovery, Valakut Awakening, Malakir Rebirth, Hagra Mauling, and Sea Gate Restoration are free rolls in pretty much any deck with those colors. Others like Jwari Disruption and Sejiri Shelter are situationally good in some decks. I'll even play Kazuul's Fury as a way to fling something for the final bit of damage lol.

[@Razdasoldier]

Meticulous excavation works amazing with MDF lands. Play them early and rebuild them later.

[@jaredwright1655]

@@Razdasoldier that card looks awful

[@Razdasoldier]

@@jaredwright1655 it is one of the only cards in white to rebuy a land.

[@trikovi1628]

'You're leaving so much power on the table!" Richard says talking about a land that lets you pay 4 mana to amass 1

[@JeremiahWalker-n8j]

🤣

[@al8188]

I put Barad-Ur in an extreme budget, mono-black deck that could sac a creature on every player's turn, and that card ended up being just worse than a basic land. I consistently was able to get it in untapped, but in 15 games activated it 0 times. I don't think I've ever been caught out and trapped by a card that bad before.

[@BorkBigFrighten2]

I'm usually all for Richard's super wild takes, and I agree with like 80-90% of them, but the amass land is actually nearly unplayable.

[@mikeyjesse9376]

Lands utility being the fact where you cant play basics actually is part of the reason commander is no longer casual because as according to Seth and Richard you have an automatic 2/3 of your land base you have to play in every deck.

[@RBGolbat]

No one know about Open the Way cause it’s from March of the Machines: Aftermath. Also, Blind Obedience is a mono-W card, not an Orzhov card. (Technically)

[@Shimatzu95]

Personally i belive it is realy strong but i generally just dont ever play "midgame ramp" so it doesn't fit my decks.

[@ElmoTheRed]

I am curious as to why no one plays The Ring Goes South. With two legends on the battlefield it is the same and with more it gets even better.

[@WormOTB]

@@Shimatzu95I mean technically it could be a “cultivate” which I hope is earlier in the game

[@jamesfilyawDigginGabe]

​@ElmoTheRed I would assume it's because most people see it's cost, see it specifies legendaries, and so assume it should only go in legendary decks. And to be honest, in the modern day, you shouldn't be including a non-synchronistic 4 drop, it just staggers plans too hard in such a solved metagame.

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

57:00 I'm with Tomer on this one haha. I haven't updated my decks with new lands in a while, but even my spikiest 3 Color deck has 4 of each basic. The crews Numbers seem a bit exaggerated

[@SWAT6809]

I have a 2 color deck with 4 basics... :D

[@suntitan4429]

Yeah I guess they like having lands enter tapped or spending a thousand dollars on mediocre mana bases

[@malachai1381]

My 5 color decks have 2 of each basic, it works great

[@xaxscratchxax926]

I don't believe you. 5 colors with 10 basics. How many lands total? I'm imaging multiple games where you don't have the color you need.

[@JonReid01]

@@xaxscratchxax926 the painbow precon has 2 of each and it works fine.

[@schadenfreude4846]

The second I play a field of the dead blind obedience or mesmeric orb the entire table starts beating the life out of me what do you mean quietly😭

[@Driftbloondream]

Boardwipe them, can't kill you if they don't have creatures and the ones they do have come in tapped while you're draining life.

[@emanuelbutler2315]

“Open the Way is the most broken card in commander” Richard really woke up and chose violence this morning

[@Dimenti0-S]

Love the pod. I could listen to you guys talk about how to do your taxes, fantastic chemistry.

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

Their off topic cast was an all timer for that reason.

[@Wojtek36762]

I can say I don’t play Open the Way because I’ve never seen one at the table and barely paid attention to Aftermath. I’ll give it a try in my Maja landfall deck for sure.

[@tko_5]

If you have a landfall deck it's a must because it just gets out of hand playing this let me have landfall triggers on the board.

[@Wojtek36762]

@@tko_5 yeah, Maja is a 5 drop so even with ramp she gets going a little slowly, untapping and ramping 4 lands for 4 immediate creatures seems great.

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

I kept seeing aftermath at Walmart when it came out. Decided that 4 dollars for a 5 card booster(or however many it was) wasn't worth it and completely forgot the set happened at all.

[@ElmoTheRed]

Might want to check out the ring goes South also. Seems like it could trigger many landfall if you have a good bit of legends

[@JoshuaPantalleresco]

I'm with Tomer. I have no idea what you guys are talking about with Land Tax. It's one of the best draw engines of all time. If I'm running anything but white green, I'm running tax. It's that strong. It's always been quiet, and has been since inception. Just ridiculously strong. There's a reason it's not a budget card. Beyond that, fun episode.

[@tko_5]

For me recently it has been Leadership vacuum!!!! You have an indestructible Commander, with flying, menace, and two of the swords with protection from you colors swinging at you for game. Leadership vacuum puts it back to the command zone unless the player has protection from you (which nobody does). Nasty especially with all this power creep and Ward and all that!!! Have fun!

[@Blacklodge_Willy]

Yup, plus commander tax still adds up for the next time they want to cast their commander.

[@JeremiahWalker-n8j]

ikr it also draws a card which is nuts

[@ziggysleeps]

Somebody plays a Seagate Restoration and nobody bats an eye. I play the One Ring and everybody loses their minds

[@bartoffer]

Richard really is screaming at all of you to play Ruination.

[@captainnermy5608]

Tomer really should build a deck with Ruination, Price of Progress, Blood Moon, etc just to remind everyone why they should play basics. Edit: Crim did a pretty good job demonstrating on the most recent commander clash lol

[@YBladeY]

As a 5 Color player with 10 fetches, 10 triomes and 10 OG duals... Im crying already

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

​@@captainnermy5608play Fr9m the Ashes yo rub their lack of basics in their faces like "wow if you played basic lands you wouldn't have a problem."

[@CromwellMTG]

​@@YBladeY *Laughs in Ritual of Subdual*

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

@CromwellMTG I'm adding that to my cart, card's funny.

[@ondrejprochazka8486]

The crew is off base compared to general edh standards when it comes to obsession with non basics that sometimes have only marginal value. They’re like - oh but why would you play basics and leave power on the table. Geez don’t you do it with literally all the other areas? Staples, optimal plays, combos, we all select things out to reduce power in casual commander. But no basics get them going crazy

[@jaredwright1655]

I mean, in a mono colored deck that isn't mono black, it's hard.to justify more than 15 basics in the deck when so many utility lands are cheap and powerful

[@ondrejprochazka8486]

@@jaredwright1655 15 is much closer to reality for most players tbh. That leaves you with say 20? Utility lands, maybe it’s worth it. But except for Tomer I hey literally use 14 more slots and have like 1 basic

[@velphidrow]

One day I'm gonna play against Seth and he's gonna watch a 3 color deck blood moon him out of the game

[@andrewesther8599]

I don't call these cards quiet. If you are playing in paper and have to keep reminding people to lose a life (meathook, blind obedience) or pay the extra 2 (propaganda, smothering tithe) then they actively get annoyed and will collaborate to make it stop.

[@bronythekight7369]

I really don’t like that they say lands are “untouchable”. Like, yeah mass land destruction is frowned upon and rightly so. But a little bit of targeted land destruction to get rid of actually troublesome lands like maze of Ith, field of the dead, glacial casm, etc. I think is perfectly fine. Like how Seth with occasional play the miser strip mine to deal with certain lands that are a problem. Lands shouldn’t be considered untouchable, it should just be bad sportsmanship to mass land wipe, especially repeatedly.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Tomer, the crew thinks any card that requires you to play basics are bad because they refuse to play non greedy mana bases

[@monhunfox1401]

I think we know the answer then. Tomer needs to go full ponza and red prison. Bring on the Blood Moon and Ruination!

[@blabik]

@@monhunfox1401 Blood moon and price of progress under isochron scepter. Lets see how many games it will take for everyone to go 20+ basics

[@mickeysmagic89]

Add a little green for Wave of Vitriol “you guys get to replace you lands with basics, see? What’s that? You have none? Boo hoo”

[@JulioDRai]

Glad they added video formatting to the title, I always wondered what format they used =)

[@JonReid01]

What did it say?

[@JulioDRai]

@@JonReid01 they forgot to delete ".mp4" from the video title lmao

[@felth4994]

Thanks, crew, for lifting the fog over my eyes from Open the Way. I had evaluated it for my Gates deck but dismissed it. You're right! My math was wrong, and this card is actually great.

[@MrGeoghagan]

I'd love to sit at the table where the majority of these are sleeper game winners. Basically all these would draw the attention of the table, ESPECIALLY Field of the Dead and Blind Obedience. Absolute nonsense land, and people really do not enjoy their stuff coming in tapped. The only ones that I kinda agree as sleepers are Skullwinder and Land Tax. Sorry Crim, but Sword of Body and Mind is still a no from me dawg.

[@TheSpunYarn]

I feel like the basics vs turbo non-basics argument is a question of practicality, budget, and aesthetic. Practically speaking, there's diminishing returns when it comes to how optimal your mana base is. If you spent $500 and 20 life to effectively have only trilands and utility lands and perfectly fixed mana, you arent exclusively casting 3 pip charms and necropotences. Ive seen the cards the Crew play, and Crim aside they arent that demanding. Theres just no need for the effort and budget allocation. Not only this, but the only two utility lands that consistently see *use* are Thespians Stage and Vesuva, and iconic design mistake Field of the Dead - which isnt a utility lands so much as a win con. Spending 50 to 25% of that amount of money gets a perfectly functional mana base which allows for cards like Cultivate to be playable - and those cards are powerful no matter what 3/4ths of a Commander Podcast say.

[@connerferguson1667]

The card that has single handedly won me the most games of commander is Lair of the Hydra. This kinda falls in line with a major argument of the video regarding the insane ability of utility lands. But simply being able to swing out with a massive creature late game right after a board wipe has been huge in my experience, and being a land, nobody really pays much attention to it till it’s too late.

[@imaginarymatter]

5-D chess -- become opulent and enchant yourself with Curse of Opulence! What are your opponents going to do about it? Give you treasures?

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

I unironically do this in my Joleen deck. And yes, I know it doesn't make treasures, but giving options and more artifact mana is always good.

[@NPRoland]

If Tomer plays next season, he just needs to run blood moon and he’ll win every single game the second it hits the board

[@evaman0182]

the vast amount of greed these guys have in regards to mana bases is astounding. price of progress is like an instant KO for everyone except Tomar

[@MrMagdalore]

The reason people were complaining about Field of the Dead in Richard's Sgt. Benton deck is because with all that mana and all that card draw winning was a formality. Instead of winning in an interesting way, you played Field of the Dead. 😴💤

[@monhunfox1401]

Yea, I generally like Richard's deck building and playstyle - but his decks this season have been very homogenous. They all kind of feel the same.

[@donb7519]

​@@monhunfox1401probably cause he realized they were bringing in a less interactive player for the season with phil. I'd say richard is the one most likely to build specifically for their meta whereas the other guys decks would work in any meta

[@SithOnix]

How are you playing 5 basics in a two colour deck? ABU Dual, Shock, Fetch, Pain, Surveil, Cylcling w/tpes. Basic Check land, 2 land check land, Cycleland, Cycleland, signet land, filter land, command tower, exotic orchard, ancient tomb [rogues passage, reliquary tower, karn's bastion, nesting ground]..................... That's 19 lands assuming you aren't playing snarls/temples/manlands. 5 Basics. 24 lands What about the other ~13?

[@josephhawkins7974]

This episode definitely brought to the forefront that non basic land hate and land destruction should be more commonly run in decks. Even if it's just Ghost Quarter, Field of Ruin, and Wasteland. Take out the greed

[@TheArNoir]

01:06:18 Quakebringer does not work with mutavault. "At the beginning of your upkeep" is when the giant triggers, and all "at the beginning of your upkeep" triggers go on the stack before any player gets priority. By the time you have priority to activate Mutavault, the window to get quakebringer to trigger has passed.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Richard and Seth have brainwashed the cast into forgetting every commander player is okay with targeted land removal. And the MOST acceptable land removal is swap removal they're extra susceptible to because they run no basics and terrible mana fixing.

[@peoplesoft2784]

Exactly! If I have a broken land remove it but give me a basic in return. It’ll probably enter untapped anyways. People dislike mass land destruction because it prevents them from actually playing the game.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

Anyone who complains about basic swap destruction is taking things too far.

[@peoplesoft2784]

@@UnreasonableOpinions also add onto it. Destroying a single land and not replacing it doesn’t really matter too much late game. Sure it sucks but does that 11th land really change things for you?

[@manningstone5796]

I started using open the way after you suggested it several episodes ago, and the moment i cast it, my pod went "oh that's Two games later, i see them. playing it. Completely agree.

[@leaguesbelowthesea]

I feel like Sea Gate Restoration is the exact wrong answer here. If you're at 7 mana and have enough cards in hand that it's worth casting, you're already doing pretty well. Drawing 4 or 5 isn't at all quiet, and it's not really letting you win the game any differently than any other mass card draw effect. It's a MDFC, it's a good card, but it's louder than it is powerful.

[@carlpeterson8740]

Still on Tomer's side for basics. I run 10 in my 5 color, 9 in my 4 color, 10-15 in all my 3 color, 20+ in my 2 color, and around 25 in my mono colored. Also, Open the Way is often bad. The game is ready to end by the time you can get max value

[@leonjakobsen272]

What kind of playgroup are you in where the game is ready to end at 6 mana?

[@carlpeterson8740]

@@leonjakobsen272 I'm just speaking from an optimization standpoint it will rarely be correct to play the card. I can give a full breakdown of how the Clash playgroup has evolved to make the card viable/good but this is a comment section and this will already be a novel for a comment. It's not that the card can't be run, you just need to ask yourself what else is happening in my playgroup before you put a high mana value ramp card in your deck. The bulk of my play is random groups from various mtg discords. An above average draw can win on turn 5 or 6 with a lot of decks. After turn 7 i kind of expect anything can happen. To answer how people win or present a must answer board state for 6 mana: For 5 mana people cast Hatred, Overwhelming Stampede, and Coat of Arms. For 6 mana ramp you can double all your mana & future mana with Mana Reflections. At 6, the Tergrid player is untapping and doing Tergrid things. At 4 the token player can at instant speed cast Second Harvest and double their board or casting Akroma's Will. For 3 mana someone can cast Beastmaster Ascension. There are a lot of examples. You just need to be mindful is all.

[@xaropevic7918]

On my playgroup at turn 6 the game is not close to ending, but definitely not the moment to be ramping, it is so tempo negative to do that at the point, while I think 4 cmc ramp is too overhated, 6 cost for one is definitely not, and how are you going to use that much mana without a horrible curve? The ramp also happens to inconsistently give you random lads, which sure, can be field of the dead, but also can make you continue to be mana screwed, which nearly every other ramp solves, and demands you to have a way more expensive manabase to actually be better than normal ramp due to that downside, also has a lesser than one hundred chance of getting mystic sanctuary when you don't need and the opposite as well

[@spookighost7663]

How is meathook on this list? Its still banned in standard and still 30 dollars... Card basically consolidates like 3 different roles into one well costed card

[@gn0s1s]

Yeah totally agree, wiping the board, being banned in a format, reminding players each turn about life gain/loss, usually not a hallmark of a quiet winning card. ^_^

[@TheSpunYarn]

My most hipster magic take is that "no max hand size" effects are unnecessary and Reliquary Tower is bad. Drawing 10 and sculpting 17 cards down to 7 isnt really that hard, nor is it that big of a downside. Keep one land, one or two pieces of interaction and GAS and you're in great shape. The 5 lands you discarded arent hurting you.

[@PaulissVegan]

So true

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Commander doesn't need mass and destruction, it needs incedential land destruction. Mass land destruction just makes the game take forever and condemds two players for the crimes of the one ramping too much. That is not only mean, but not optimal, politics or no politics. It's a combo piece you build around. Incedential land destruction should be played a lot more because it only goes to the player it should. We just need cheaper effects.

[@jaredwright1655]

I personally love the "destroy a land, they grab a basic to replace it" just wish it was attached to a permanent and not a 3 mana sorcery

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@jaredwright1655 I really like volcanic offering because of it's a 4 for 1 at instant speed that gives you plausible deniability but it's five mana. I also try to play incendiary command because of its extra utility but it has the same problems. Give me a similar effect for cheaper, it can even be less strong, it just needs to have utility and/or replace itself.

[@jaredwright1655]

@@MakeVarahHappen just learned that volcanic offering exists. Thank you

[@TheSilverFox442]

I might suggest Cleansing Wildfire. Two mana sorcery, cantrips to replace itself, and if you have any indestructible lands you can even use it as ramp for yourself.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@TheSilverFox442 cleansing wildfire is removal for problematic lands but is terrible for punishing ramp.

[@moshjoshpitchief4418]

i agree with tomer about sea gate restoration. also, most of the time when you get to the 7 mana needed for it, your hand is mostly empty. it becomes a 7 mana draw 1 or maybe 2 cards, and you have no max hand size.... huzzah.

[@Cheerwine091]

Yeah, unless you have draw engines and such going already, it’s not doing much. If it wasn’t an MDFC, it would just be a win-more card. It still is. That doesn’t mean it’s not one of my favorite cards though. I remember one game where I got down to around ~4 cards in library, and it was down to a 1v1 (was playing Locust God + Wheels) and I ripped a sea gate off the top, and think “oh, this’ll be how I get my tokens going to maybe close out the game!” And I cast it without thinking… Drew 5 and died lmao.

[@laytonjr6601]

You are talking about a player group where the meta decided that putting reliquary tower on every single deck was the correct play. They are drawing so many cards each game they are at risk of decking themselves out. In this cases, it is a draw 10

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

I put Open The Way in my Magus Lucea Kane deck when I pulled it from the booster pack and it's been one of the best cards in my deck ever since.

[@obliviousbookwyrm6907]

55:26 Land Tax vs. Utility Lands?? I don’t understand the confusion. ¿Por qué no los dos? What does you guys’ mana base look like for that to be an conflict??

[@brianpendleton2674]

Land Tax is amazing and you do NOT need to skip out on your high-power utility. I run Land Tax in azorius and run about 20 basics out of my 34-35 lands. Land tax basically says, "run basics and you can dump 10% of your unnecessary cards into your graveyard to thin out your deck. Plus never miss a drop, etc. I would not run outside of 2 color decks likely, but in a mono-white or two color deck it is a POWERFUL include and certainly not a budget card. Weird to me that this is not already known. I'm not usually on Tomer's side (no offense) but he knows what is up here.

[@brianpendleton2674]

Also someone tell Seth to stop perpetuating the "you cannot kill lands" stereotype. Targeted land destruction is a MUST include, and selective mass removal when it leans into a win-con needs to be brought back.

[@brianpendleton2674]

And why are you putting 40 lands in your deck Seth? Heeeeell no! If it is not a landfall deck or a mana curve above 4, there is zero reason to include that many lands. More draw > more lands. 35 is top end for me, 38 is the most I run in my Pantlaza blink/discover deck.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

I have two quiet cards that have impressed me every time I have had them on the field. Garruk's Uprising and Temur Ascendancy, you draw as you throw down your biggest threats and those Threats will Either have Haste to hit out of nowhere or Trample to smash through Blockers. Also Running Less Basics is sensible because we have more powerful Mana Dorks and Rocks along side Nature's Lore and Farseek, Yes those will get caught in Sweeper effects but if I tapped my Birds of Paradise for 2 mana that means it was a profitable mana spent.

[@hermodnitter3902]

The basic land discussion from 55:18 just shows how extremely greedy players build their manabases (and even make fun of those playing basics). Seriously, non-basic hate should be encouraged A LOT more. Jam that Blood Moon or Price of Progress, heck even Ruination should be normalised. People just gets wayyy to salty, but probably the salt needs to be rubbed into the wound even more to make them change their mind.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I love the ".mp4" video names. : )

[@froggystrap1232]

The obsession of the crew with non basic land is so funny because if you play irl you realize people mostly play 90% basic 😂

[@Byteside546]

People are budget limited and it generally seems more fun to buy the flashy/synergy cards foryour deck rather than drop $50++ on just improving the land base. But if you proxy (with/without limits) land bases are free to improve and won't be touched much/at all in commander. The better objective deck design, if the pay to win element is ignored, is to run as few basics as possible to make room for MDFCs and superior color fixing lands.

[@froggystrap1232]

@@Byteside546 I proxy every card of my decks and I proxy on average 20 basics each time. I dont want to take 30 minutes constructing a mana bases, lands are not fun

[@avall0nNn1992]

Really depends on the playgroup. In my local meta most 3+ color decks run almost no basics.

[@dantemalick2872]

For my playgroup once you get past 2 colors there are maybe 1 of each basic. There are two many lands that cone in untapped and grant at least 2 mana

[@Suavek69]

​@@avall0nNn1992if it was my meets I'd start playing From the Ashes lol. Ruination is too mean, but if you don't play basics you really did this to yourself

[@wedgearyxsaber]

Love episode 143.mp4 but when is 143.mp5 coming out?

[@elsporko321]

Can an "offensive" Settle the Wreckage on your own board outpace Open the Way? In a token deck, you'd have 3 turns to get as many tokens out as possible. I feel like you could comfortably get more than 3 tokens. Basics only instead of any lands, but to be able to do something similar in white seems pretty strong.

[@discoviolenza1984]

This episode just reminds me everyone should start running non basic land punishment because of the modern day greedy land bases.

[@leonjakobsen272]

The problem is that it also punished a lot of non-greedy manabases.

[@kris834]

@@leonjakobsen272 Only for 4 color and up, you can play 2 and 3 color decks with mostly basics.

[@leonjakobsen272]

@@kris834 Are 4+ color land bases inherently greedy?

[@kris834]

@@leonjakobsen272 They kinda have to be.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Not only do I think the aggro Blind Obedience draws is over stated, but it also provides you with the resources to deal with it.

[@monhunfox1401]

It hits that sweet spot where it's just effective enough to be awesome, but not so effective that it eats a removal spell. People never want to waste their removal on it.

[@jakenspan013]

The problem with the basic vs non basic argument is that a lot of people can’t afford to put all that money into land based every time they build a deck.

[@cowsticker9618]

Hearing the land counts of Richard, Seth, and Crim... I definitely want to run ruination/blood moon effects...

[@flyingwhale21]

They are so greedy. *Laughs in back to basics*

[@TacticalOmelette]

I play Simic Landfall personally, and I actively encourage my friends and opponents to play land hate/wipes against me. In casual games I understand not having any Armageddon effects, but it's ridiculous to have your win con be protected under the rule 0 feels bad rule that discourages land hate. No other win con is as protected as lands and ramp

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

Early consistencies and synergies can oftentimes be more impactful than late game bombs.

[@wafflehaxxx]

Blind Obedience is not an Orzhov card. You can play it in any white deck. The Extort mana symbol is in the reminder text, not actually a part of the color identity. Edit: Okay, Richard corrected Crim at the end.

[@jeffe2267]

imagine being so horny to correct the video that you can't wait 5 minutes to hear the full discussion of the card.

[@robertk1834]

Tomer is the only sane one here tbh

[@another505]

I like sea gate and between tomer and seth's opinion. It is good, adn you can get away with it against beginners. But against decent players, it is a risky card to tapped out and cast. You also need to have a decent hand size to cast it after deploying your ramps or etc.. so you need other card draws to make it good

[@henrye3935]

I think Breena is a great quiet Commander. It sits out and gives everyone value, but then becomes a huge flying threat.

[@brandyourfan9244]

Even if you don't pump Breena, you can pump your other creatures. People like drawing, and don't pay attention to all the counters you're adding.

[@henrye3935]

@@brandyourfan9244 Exactly. I win fairly often with my Breena deck and people still refer to it as group hug or political. It's actually just great at building threats

[@DylanHunter64]

I'd really like a podcast episode that analyzes the downsides and upsides of controversial or unassuming effects. How many times has Skullwinder backfired? Was the incidental life gain actually relevant to someone's survival or did they die anyway? Did the fog actually save the game? How much life did someone redirect with a Ghostly Prison?

[@michaelstrooband8528]

Tomer. Please just start running all the cards that destroy non basics and lets its controller get basics. Field of ruin, demolition field and Best of all Wave of Vitriol. (Was printed in a commander precon so its all good)

[@lora5030]

I'm with Tomer in regard to basic lands, I have no idea how people play without basics

[@CoL_Drake]

we need to reintroduced land destruction into the meta this "we cant destroy land" makes the games nowadays worse as green runs away with the game xD

[@CuddlyBuns]

So the takeaway from this is that Tomer should run a boros deck with land tax and blood moon 🤣

[@uandubh5087]

I never wanted to see a Blood Moon so badly as I do now after hearing those takes on basic lands... Punish them, Tomer!

[@Thoughtmage100]

I love how Open The Way is finally getting the love it deserves. I've been using it since Aftermath dropped, and it's been an incredible boon every time I've seen it.

[@CouchtrollPodcastDS]

Open the way under used because it’s in Aftermath. That was a bomb set that nobody bought

[@ondrejprochazka8486]

lol Seth is choosing things that are such loud moments in edh… 7 mana draw seagate restoration and field of the dead omg in which groups is it quietly impacting the board

[@qwertz256]

I was thinking the same thing, those cards are in no way "quiet" XD

[@BeastlyP1g]

I think Curse of Opulence is a negative for the format. There are plenty of cards that wreck a single player like overwhelming splendor. The difference is at 1 mana, Curse of Opulence comes down too early in the game to fairly label someone as archenemy.

[@TheAlmightyGoiter]

Tomer used to hate this card, I remember on a previous podcast he wanted it banned too.

[@robertk1834]

It's pretty funny that this card is legal considering the feel bads it creates, and it usually targets the player in the worst position at the table.

[@superstupid667]

I love curse of opulence. The players dig their own Graves. Its not a good card if players aren't tempted but it's bonkers if they are.

[@BeastlyP1g]

@@superstupid667 Even if none of your opponents are "tempted" It's still an extremely strong card. Even if you are the only player triggering it, it's like a Utopia Sprawl with the upside of being able to save the mana for a future turn if you don't need it.

[@BudgetCommanderStreams]

@@TheAlmightyGoiter (Tomer here) I think you might be confusing me with Richard? It's been my favorite Red card since it was first previewed. Richard doesn't like it because it makes the cursed person a punching bag, and I agree to an extent that it's a feelsbad, but I still love the card.

[@stormycat0905]

Instead of running cards that give no maximum hand size try running Mystic Redaction. With this when you have to discard to hand size each opponent will mill 2 cards for each card you discard. It effectively turns your card draw into mill/removal.

[@leonjakobsen272]

How is that removal? Also, at least in my experience, milling opponents usually helps them more than it hurts them.

[@avall0nNn1992]

Milling an opponent is objectively bad.

[@WhispersDaes]

52:17 there is a fixed version- curse of the restless dead! 3 drop enchantment curse with Landfall: create a zombie 2/2 token with decayed. Put it on the green player to take advantage of their ramp, or put it on yourself to get a zombie on each of your own turns. Better yet, it doesn't force you to mess with your mana base!

[@judge489]

It really seems like Richard's list can be summed up as "Thank God our play groups meta is so slow".

[@suntitan4429]

Tomer is the only one that is actually right basics are so underplayed nowadays

[@jaredwright1655]

Basics are underplayed? In 3+ color decks there's really no reason to run more than 9 basics, usually less. Non green color combos really gotta have a reason to play basics

[@psychozen7169]

I have become a huge fan of open the way. Mainly because so many times it has drawn out an opposition agent early. Which usually gets eaten by someone in the group because at least two others cannot live with out their tutors/fetches.

[@Shydoshi17]

I came around on Sword of Body and Mind. Saw Crim in a Scrybabies episode milling all kinds of wincons.

[@theodosiuspadua4503]

Hearing Seth and Richard say that no one plays land hate is like hearing children explain that Santa is gonna come. Blood moon is legal, Back to basics is legal, your play groups have been coddling you.

[@donb7519]

Most playgroups do to the point those cards are soft banned. Mld or blood moons just slow the game down to a pace people dont find enjoyable. People like greedy mana bases so they can cast their dumb timmy cards on or ahead of curve even if they have 3 or 4 colored pips in their cost so anything that says no gets a target. Thats why we need blood sun reprints. No fotd bullshit but people can cast dumb spells

[@danikirk5774]

Yeah I'm definitely agreeing that the reason Open the Way isn't played often is because nobody knows it exists. Nobody thinks to look for cards that say flip from the top of your library until you reveal lands & put them into play.

[@andresarancio6696]

On Sea Gate Restoration, I think Burst Card Draw that you can capitalize on without discarding in general has the same thing where, it happens, it will win you the game, and people just do not give it the attention it deserves. I want to point out all the Pull From Tomorrow effects, drawing you five or six cards as an instant so you have all your mana untapped to use them next turn. And one of my playgroup's meta warping card, budget Sea Gate Restoration, Recurring Insight. With people drawing cards at the rate they do in Commander, it is always a draw 6 with Rebound. Normally, the play pattern goes, cast Recurring Insight, draw 6 cards, people get really worried for like, the next person's turn until they do something scary and more board-related, and now everyone forgot I sculpted my hand. Then in my upkeep I draw 6 cards more and win the game, because I had 7 perfect cards +6 new ones. With Pull from Tomorrow/Stroke of Genius/Brain Geyser/etc, you get to draw a bunch of cards on your opponent's turn, right after everyone in the table was expecting "Oh, suspicious, but he is blue, he may be saving interaction". You may risk someone thinking you are saving up a Cyclonic Rift but a) just complain very loudly about not running it because it is a super staple in blue and b) they may even try to play closer to the chest in that case. Regardless, I feel burst card draw is underappreciated in Commander as the same kind of point of no return moment for the game. If I untap with 15 cards in hand, the game is most likely over this turn or in a couple of turns of everyone else not playing. All in all what I am saying is, play more counterspells or play more aggro options to kill the player that draws cards.

[@backyard_mtg5322]

All this talk about running non-basics in your decks, sounds like price of progress quietly wins games.

[@Suavek69]

In real life people play a lot of basics, but after this podcast I think I'll keep from the ashes sleeved just in case I'm ever at a command fest where people can play with one of you

[@burningpapersun1]

I always feel like they are out of touch with the common player. Not everybody can put these busted land packages in every deck. I think they should put restrictions on land packages next season.

[@velphidrow]

I don't think they should put restrictions but it is weird how much they assume their friend group meta is everyone's experience

[@WushuTaz]

Never understood why Traverse the Outlands was "greatest power" instead of "greatest toughness". It literally has a Treefolk as the art. Treefolk are known for big butts...

[@simons6110]

the sea gate restoration discussion had me bursting out in laughter sooo hard ily mtggoldfish for live

[@peoplesoft2784]

14:04 It’s so interesting. I thought the common understanding was that burst card draw was perceived as scarier as opposed to engines.

[@LexAnarchy]

Someone's GOTTA run Ruination and Bloodmoon to make them pay for running 5 basics in Monocoloured.

[@Mulletdog1]

23:03 one day I played in a pod with my Henzie deck the other day where one opponent played blind obedience and the other played dauthi voidwalker. It was one of the most miserable three hours I ever had, AND STILL WON, because those two players kept targeting each other

[@Yourbeautiful666]

Land destruction is good strategy. Use it. As long as you’re putting yourself in an advantageous position, or balancing board states, you’re good to go. Playing it just for the sake of playing it is pretty silly, especially if it doesn’t benefit you at all, but if it puts everyone at the same level again, or leaves you way in the lead, it’s a good play. Don’t be afraid of green players being upset their ramp has been wasted for a turn.

[@tsukikofudo]

How to play land tax. Start with 33 plains. Now cut a plains for each replacement land Lotus Field Lotus Vale Arid Mesa Flooded Strand Marsh Flats Windswept Heath Prismatic Vista Fabled Passage 8 Fetches 25 basic plains Or if you wanna be greedy you can cut more and add Obscura Storefront Brokers Hideout Caberretti Courtyard 11 Fetches 22 basic plains

[@MrMarbles0Xecution]

Crim would put sword of body and mind into anything and he'll have 100 justifications why he did it.

[@ZeronXenixal]

Pretty sure Field of the Dead does NOT quietly win you games. It's pretty obvious.

[@mmlgamer]

Quakebringer and Mutavault don’t combo. You need to have a Giant when you BEGIN your upkeep.

[@starchaser6024]

Cards that quietly win games: using path to exile on your own creature as a 1 mana ramp spell 😬

[@suntitan4429]

Sometimes i swords my creatures to gain life 😂

[@loganshy2570]

Yo, I was playing at my local LGS and Blind Obedience literally won the game! This card was so impactful on the game, prevented me from Wishclawing to win the game and died to the crackback. Opponent quietly pulled ahead and prevented the rest of the table from executing their game plans.

[@loganshy2570]

the enter tapped is so powerful and the table was busy worrying about other threats to target the Blind Obedience player

[@leonjakobsen272]

For me, the whole "play more utility lands instead of basics" is the prime example of making your decks marginally better, at the cost of making them much less interesting.

[@bortron5000]

I always have to remind myself that their perspective assumes a meta of unlimited budget (and trending spikey). I play so many basics, and that's fine for my lower powered, janky/theme focused meta. Field of the Dead would be like 20% of any of our decks average cost. Still appreciate the different takes though!

[@avall0nNn1992]

To be hornest they don't build spikey at all and thats because of content. To be really spikey would include way more efficient infinite combos but it wouldn't Work for their content.

[@peoplesoft2784]

55:25 I really have to agree to Tomar, especially because I love green ramp. I think you can make a good argument for the original duels and the shock lands and the fetch lands as being better than basics, but a lot of the time I’d say basics are more powerful, they just simply come in untapped and I can easily tutor for them. 55:57 8 basics is a lot in a 5 color deck? In a mono color that’s nothing. Or in a dual color. I might have the wrong pulse here, but I find it ironic that Krimm hates on basics but not ramp. Maybe this specific playgroup plays a bunch of the find any lands. Probably why open the way is perceived to be so strong. It’s not bad by any means.