10 Examples of EDHREC Being Wrong | Commander Clash Podcast 126

[@Wojtek36762]

“Why don’t you just cut the 10 cent Llanowar Elves from all your decks and replace them with $175 Mana Crypts?” Having a Big Think over here 🤔🤔🤔

[@blackvneckux228]

This comment didn’t age well. 😂

[@sambrown9475]

​@@blackvneckux228 damn you beat me to it 😂😂😂

[@thomaswren8508]

i love that for brainstorm richard says its not in a precon while showing the afr commander version of the card

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

It's not shown to the cast in that way at the time of recording. The editor "niuttuc" puts the card art up for us in post editing. I could be wrong, but subtle signs in their conversations over the years led me to believe that.

[@randallferguson1981]

Let’s not forget that you have infinitely more tutors that do the shuffle the deck…like it’s obvious that it’s good af

[@bye1551]

​@@randallferguson1981yeah but card draw in commander is more explosive. Cantrips are awful in commander. The name of the game in 60 card is consistency. You want your entire deck to do a single game plan with 4-12 cards in your deck. In commander, your entire deck does a gameplan. If you've built your commander deck well and aren't playing cedh you have 50 cards that vaguely do what you want to do because if you build your deck around a single effect you have at best like 5 cards that do it. You can't be consistent with cantrips when only 5% of your deck has the effect you need. You need to be drawing 10 cards or tutoring.

[@kedge]

They don't know what's shown. This is all added by the editor (tomer) at a later time.

[@Tspang42]

@@bye1551only five percent of your deck does the thing your deck wants to do?

[@kevinthecarpathian]

Richard bringing up Farseek multiple times and no references to him playing it in mono green is a crime

[@TheDylls]

I love my Farseek that's signed by Richard! 🙈🤣

[@ComfyDents]

​@@TheDyllsSo you play it in mono G, right?

[@TheDylls]

@@ComfyDents Unfortunately, I'm just a pretender... I play it in at least dual coloured decks 😔

[@deadNdivine12]

....umm.. it definitely should not be played in mono-green.

[@DerrylHopkins]

​@@deadNdivine12That's the joke.

[@notsm]

Richard: Play fog, it'll save your bacon. Also Richard: Cyc Rift only prolongs the game for a single turn.

[@WarpsmithAdam]

He also keeps stressing the mana cost, but fails to see that there's usually a more sizable mana cost for the opponents who are trying to redeploy. The mana swing is usually in your favor.

[@bye1551]

Richard makes a hypocritical and nonsensical argument. In other news, the sky is blue.

[@mjkuhnke]

It seems like he's never seen it used offensively. Use that on someone's end step and you've likely put them into an unrecoverable situation at that point if the game while the other two have to use their whole turn redeploying or suffer the same fate.

[@Donovarkhallum]

I hate the argument of " they'll redeploy next turn" some boards may take two turns to re set up if it's combo shit or chonky Bois summoned via dorks or rocks

[@alexdavis1711]

If you play cyclonic rift wrong, then it totally makes sense for what he says which I see too many people do cause their threat assessment is piss poor. When used properly, you typically just win while they struggle to sometimes barely redeploy 1/3 of their board sometimes far less.

[@MarshallDog]

Mana dorks are modular. Early game, mana dorks are ramp. Mid-game, mana dorks are creature synergy pieces. Late-game, mana dorks are additional bodies for Craterhoof Bohemoth. I'd rather draw a mana dork late game than a Sol Ring.

[@Amascut]

Even more importantly, dorks turn into blockers when you really need them.

[@AstoranSolaire]

I guess artifact synergies mustn't be a thing then.

[@MarshallDog]

@@AstoranSolaire Didn't say that, but the group did poo-poo the idea that creature synergies make mana dorks good, so just following that logic artifact synergies don't make mana rocks good.

[@geoffbarnes2590]

I know it would represent a much smaller number of decks, but if I have a 3 mana value commander I am 100% putting in a bunch of dorks, because I want it out turn 2.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@geoffbarnes2590 trying to build Dr Madison Li rn and there just are not any really. gold hound was the closest I've found besides spring leaf and paradise mantle which arent nearly as good as an actual dork

[@Summer_Snows]

Richard: Mana dorks are metagame dependent Me: Oh my god are they finally going to recognize that their meta is way more wrath heavy than the majority of playgroups? Richard: That means you should play MORE wraths!

[@bye1551]

Richard is the embodiment "I'm not out of touch, it's the children that are wrong"

[@triss5282]

Also its not as if Wraths nowadays have multiple modes, were they are also just gonna hit artifacts, like farewell

[@rockerknight25]

I noticed when I first started playing that I was the only one running interaction or wraths, and that by being the one who answered everything I not only painted a target on my back but also was sinking all my mana into taking out threats while the other players at the table just kept building their boards. So now I don't run near as many wraths. I've since branched out to other playgroups and I notice they don't run many wipes either. Watching commander clash is kinda nutty.

[@L0LDRAGON]

Instructions unclear including acid rain in my next blue deck

[@Kreenick]

@@rockerknight25it’s sad but I think the reason for this is people are just scared of being hated for playing interaction. Wraths, counterspells and removals are good for the game

[@NathanJ666]

It’s crazy how often the argument against playing anything is that it could possibly get removed or countered comes up.

[@unkindfairyman]

its worth considering. `Dies to removal` is essentially shorthand for `the floor of this card is too probable to justify the ceiling,` or equally, `the ceiling of this card is not high enough to be considered over other cards given the intrinsic possibility of removal/blowout.`

[@Lucarioguild7]

Crim has completely warped their meta game in a good way imo but it makes them terrible at evaluating cards for the average commander player

[@olvynchuru1663]

While basically anything CAN be removed or countered, some card types are easier to remove than others. Instants and sorceries CAN be countered, but there's not much other removal that works on them, whereas creatures die to counterspells PLUS a lot of other removal. Also, some cards give you value even if someone removes them. For example, if you cast a Ravenous Chupacabra and someone kills it immediately, you still get to destroy a creature. Whereas if you cast a Llanowar Elves and someone kills it immediately, you get nothing.

[@Lucarioguild7]

@@olvynchuru1663 If someone uses spot removal on my mana dork and not my commander or something else I'm ecstatic lol. If we're talking about board wipes then those usually don't happen till turn 5+ so I've already gotten ample value from the dork.

[@jf9022]

A tale as old as time...

[@seaweedsoupmeowington9429]

richard arguing that you cant hold up a fetchland vs richard arguing that you can hold them up right after

[@zeroisnine]

Richard just gaslights his pod to wins

[@jjvh500]

Richard holding the same logic from one minute to the next? Literally not possible. In most of these discussion videos, he will argue "You can't do X" and then argue "Just do X" a few moments later.

[@DieJG]

@@zeroisnineYeah, Richards just start his political work even before the game.

[@flyingwhale21]

Tomer needs to start bringing out blood moon and back to basics to punish these greedy mana bases.

[@Shimatzu95]

Honestly both bloodmoon and magus are just fine cards and should be played much more, if just to stick it to 5c decks. Back to basics on the other hand..... is a bit more salt inducing.

[@Lucarioguild7]

​@@Shimatzu95If Blood Moon was cheaper I'd play it in every red deck, even my 3 color decks are half basics lol

[@LegoMyachi]

@@Lucarioguild7you can get them for

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

bring back stax

[@anonsenpai6533]

I have won more games off of an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift than any other card in the format. Richard is dead wrong. Yes, lots of people play it wrong, but when played at the right moment it is an absolute blowout.

[@andrewp979]

Agreed. I've finished so many games with cyc rift.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

So, how did a cyc rift kill your opponent again? I'd rather just have another way to actually finish people off. The only time cyc rift is very powerful is if everyone is playing battle cruiser style decks. Otherwise, it's decent at best. The 2 drop form of the spell is more likely to be more powerful the higher the level of the deck.

[@michaschulz5182]

​​@@casteanpreswyn7528 its also very good in playgroups where every one uses the first 3 turns for playing Tons of ramp Artefakts you keep the ramp they need 2 turns to redeploy in most cases and you use the 2 time Walks to win

[@velphidrow]

​@casteanpreswyn7528 you are objectively wrong. The loss of tempo is absoluly insane

[@sambrown9475]

Cyc rift has been breaking backs since RTR 🤣🤣

[@carriekelly7606]

5:00 Crim trying to argue that "Draw a card, look at the top 2 cards of your deck" is a weaker effect than "Draw a card" because he feels bad when the 2 cards he sees are bad.

[@kevinthecarpathian]

lol so insane

[@dee-wreck]

He's making the point at how bad Brainstorm is that it's barely better than cycling.

[@Kestral287]

I mean, it isn't like the prototypical blue cantrip only says draw a card. Every other playable one (unless we're actually playing Whispers of the Muse as an infinite mana payoff or want to go off with The Unspeakable for memes) lets you filter cards; Brainstorm is unique that it doesn't.

[@mofomiko]

Hahahahahaha how the fuck is more information bad hahahaha boy just walk away from the table like boy close your eyes haha

[@zeroisnine]

​@@dee-wreckand he's wrong

[@riverhale6469]

Mana dorks exist to help you play cultivate turn 2 so you can turn 3 your 5 mana commander.

[@Summer_Snows]

Also, as Tomer said, literally any deck that cares about creatures

[@Lucarioguild7]

​@@Summer_SnowsWhere are we going to find a green deck that cares about creatures though? 🤔 They simply don't exist because of board wipes apparently.

[@Machiroable]

@@Lucarioguild7 I know, right? Who cares about creature based strategies, is not like big mana heavily depends on the usage of both mana artefacts and mana dorks for consistency sake.

[@peewee0224]

Just play the 2 mana green ramp. Unless you have the green creature card draw support. Also never play cultivate it’s a garbage card

[@riverhale6469]

@@peewee0224 you’re wrong. Cultivate/kodama’s reach can be better than 2 mana ramp, depending on how your deck is built and what power level you’re playing at. I play a lord windgrace deck that typically wins with a non-deterministic combo between turns 4-6 and I run cultivate but not nature’s lore. Getting a land in hand to play the next turn is great, especially when you can turn 1 a land + mana crypt + cultivate. Again, it’s deck dependent but there’s no strong argument for why 2 mana ramp is *always* better than cultivate.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

I swear Richard is a contrarian who just says stuff to get a reaction out of people

[@ethanglaeser9239]

Richard, I have seen so many "I have Cyclonic Rift, game over" situations. It is fog/board wipe/evasion quite often.

[@nathand6467]

It's one of those cards I am starting to try to avoid using because its too good. Last two times I cast it, it was fog your big attack, and I am swinging for lethal next turn; and I am ahead, but now I am WAY ahead and won a turn earlier than I could have. In one case it made the game faster not slower.

[@BlinkyFizz]

I've seen it both ways. I agree with Richard in a casual game setting. The player will cast Cyclonic Rift, but not meaningfully advance their own game plan. Over the next turn cycle, everyone plays all their permanents again, and then smacks the caster for being annoying. Of course, I've seen and been on the other side too. It's a one sided wrath that can win you the game. The thing about Cyclonic Rift is similar to Armageddon.. If it's advancing your game plan, you can back it up, it's the best card in your deck. But if you're playing a casual game and casting it for lols, it's just going to get you hated out of the game (and you've made the game take half an hour longer than it needed)

[@Kryptnyt]

Usually Cyclonic Rift is the (boring) answer players have to the strangest commander questions. Enchantress/pillowfort/stax? Don't care, cyc rift eot. Popping off with Bolas's Citadel, putting a bunch of things into play, building a huge board state, it's gone and your life total is too. Doing something really cool with an underutilized creature type? Reanimating big dudes? Cyclonic Rift doesn't care, and it's going to have an impact in any game where board state matters. Haven't cast a cyc rift in a good ten years because I don't like it.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

@@Kryptnyt That's fair. It's a catch-all that allows you to not run real answers. It's on my list of "wouldn't run if I owned one", alongside Rhystic and Tithe.

[@totakekeslider3835]

@@Kryptnytyes, this versatility that lets it get around so many things is precisely why it’s so strong (and probably boring). However, that strength can’t be denied, and I feel like I’m taking crazy pills after having just watched someone genuinely argue that it’s not good, lol.

[@streiifi]

man seth nailed it with the statistics about death rite shamans, his arguments just overshadowed what everyoneelse said for me well done seth

[@leewoods6840]

Agreed, I would love to see the people concede their initial opinion in these podcasts. Seth disproved Crim and Richards argument with logic and evidence, it was then basically ignored in favour of the "nu-uh" argument.

[@randallferguson1981]

Was super annoying to hear them act like exiling an LED won’t save you from dying

[@ColossaldreadmawOP]

Deathrite can’t exile artifacts

[@peewee0224]

And the fact none of them mentioned the fact it’s graveyard hate.

[@JustARandomMexican]

After hearing his unhinged rant about Cyclonic Rift, I am onboard for the start of Richard's villain arc

[@andyspendlove1019]

Insane that the man has never heard of tempo

[@Summer_Snows]

The start? He's been the villain of the podcast since day one

[@wedgearyxsaber]

@@andyspendlove1019 a mono white player who doesn't know the term tempo, we love to see it

[@harune8476]

Literally cannot remember the last time someone resolved an overloaded cyclonic rift and didn't win. Its a hot take for sure.

[@DiabloTommaso]

I don t play rift so much.Personaly in my experience if it s not a winmore card it s just prolong the game. I find my self using the 2 mana mode more

[@dnguyenscholar]

Another "Challenge the Stats" segment that Joey can't segue into 😂

[@jamescooley5241]

Lol my two favorite podcasts

[@BS-bv5sh]

He had to make a video to get one, and then they made a whole podcast to put him back in his place.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

I do agree that mana dorks are likely to be removed, but in my experience, most players don't run 10 wraths. I have played many games that don't even have one. I don't think they are quite as fragile in casual as the Crew claims.

[@zeroisnine]

Also, you're not planning on playing all your dorks out. You're aiming to hit one on T1, then you just curve out normally

[@altromonte15]

if people are running 10 wraths, graveyards are probably going to be full of creatures, so deathrite shaman just gets even better, honestly

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@zeroisnine this has always baffled me outside very specific decks. imma spend 10 slots on dorks to play a commander 1 turn earlier instead of cards that actually further your board state is mind boggling

[@Jerhevon]

Outside of trying to land Windgrace before opponents have attackers, those mana dorks are there so I can land some set of 3-4 drops early. And then be cheap creatures to sacrifice or feed to Skullclamp. Worry about removal? Those mana dorks are my own deliberate fodder for a GBx base deck! I'll race you to kill them.

[@wickederebus]

​@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305try playing a budget Henzie deck then. Turn 1 land, dork Turn 2 land, Henzie Turn 3, land, ritual, double cast 4 drops for 3 each.

[@Lucarioguild7]

Should have called this episode like "7 times MTG Goldfish was wrong about EDHREC"

[@peewee0224]

The deathrite shaman and brainstorm convos actually triggered me

[@zaklawrence-earey6832]

@@peewee0224 Nah Richard is right about Brainstorm

[@gabecastillo1634]

@@zaklawrence-earey6832 1 mana draw 3 in any deck is good, plus top deck manipulation plus spell slinger trips or storm like what are u talking about

[@zaklawrence-earey6832]

@@gabecastillo1634 Its not 1 mana draw 3 in reality though is it? You need reliable ways to clear the top of your deck (surveil, shuffle etc) for the card to be actively good. By no means am I going to argue Brainstorm is a bad card but the card without pieces just locks your next 2 draws. Arguing that it triggers spell slinger effects or adds to storm count is fairly pointless given that every nonland card adds storm count, and every noncreature triggers spellslinger effects.

[@gabecastillo1634]

@@zaklawrence-earey6832 it locks the next two draws you wouldn’t have had for three more turns lmao, ur objectively wrong on this one pal, and it triggering spell slingers and storm does matter when it fills ur hand with anything else while trying to go off

[@shadowpsyke]

Using Richard logic, mana dorks are kind of like a 1 mana extra turn spell on turn 1. Most people skip their first turn because they don't have a play. A mana dork utilizes that turn by ramping. By time someone is willing to board wipe, you've probably gotten plenty of value from it.

[@aklepatzky]

But you used a resource, a card. It wasnt free ;)

[@brady3126]

pyroclasm baby

[@wickederebus]

​@aklepatzky it is in Henzie. Staple "draw 1" on every 4drop and give them haste, and they cost 1 or more less, is great.

[@bensteinhauser784]

"Brainstorm lock" is fictitious. There are obviously more and less efficient ways to play the card, but the idea that by knowing your top deck you're locking yourself is incorrect.

[@jayjayhooksch1]

It's incorrect but it feels bad for a reason; the upside to your cantrip is too often "look at the top two cards of your library". That's a bad cantrip, and 1 mana cantrips are already bad in edh. Obviously when you have the shuffle effect, or the top-of-library synergy Brainstorm is bonkers, but I agree that too many decks run it without these shuffle effects/synergies.

[@davidhansen5067]

2:24 Brainstorm 10:26 Deathrite Shaman 19:58 Mana Dorks 31:55 Lightning Greaves 37:02 Cyclonic Rift 43:05 Teferi's Ageless Insight 50:15 Wrath of God 54:47 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 1:01:45 Sign in Blood and bonus callouts

[@zeroisnine]

Thanks

[@leozamora2304]

Thanks

[@dwpetrak]

Already in the description...

[@davidhansen5067]

​@@dwpetrakDerived from my comment, looks like, since timestamps and tags are exactly the same.

[@yannianastos]

That take from Richard on Cyclo Rift is wild lmaooo Cyclo Rift is incredibly strong in so many different metas. Ive seen it win games several times

[@austinbentley6471]

I disagree with Brainstorm. Why does everyone always talk about "Brainstorm Locking" like its the Brainstorm's fault your top three cards are bricks? You would have bricked just as badly if the Brainstorm was a draw 1 like Gitaxian Probe, the Brainstorm just lets you know 2 turns earlier. Blaming Brainstorm is just being mad at the bearer of bad news.

[@crawdaddy1234]

The point is that all cantrips have “Draw a card [plus some upside].” Git-Probe is zero mana and gives you information that can allow you to construct a better plan than you had without that information.

[@dlion0734]

Or you could be up the mana, and the potential card that you wasted to know you were bricked anyway. You'll find out eventually 🤷‍♀️

[@captainnermy5608]

Exactly, I was baffled by the fact that they were acting like it’s possible for a brainstorm to leave you worse off. It’s like a (mostly) better anticipate that lets you access any of your top 3 cards, and worse case a cantrip that gives you information about your next 2 draws.

[@peewee0224]

@@crawdaddy1234yeah the upside is DRAW THREE CARDS. That amount of card velocity for 1 mana is insane.

[@crawdaddy1234]

@@peewee0224But unless you have shuffle effects or draw triggers, Ponder is going to be better nine out of ten times in Commander. I used to play CounterTop in Legacy. I am well aware of how good Brainstorm is.

[@TheSpunYarn]

Seth is so wrong about mana dorks it's crazy. If you have a turn one mana dork, you've spent 1 mana to generate 1 extra mana for every turn the dork is on the battlefield. 2 or 3 turns is enough for a dork to be good. Turn 1 mana ramp is really good! I don't care if it gets wrathed. Not to mention creatures are good.

[@blobface103]

I just prefer Utopia Sprawl or Sol Ring over regular mana dorks

[@DanielEvanClarke]

That's the problem, you're diluting your 99 card deck with something that is a dead draw after turn 1

[@ThiefSakon]

It isn't though because of creature synergy.

[@TheSpunYarn]

@@DanielEvanClarke that's the reason Tomer brings up the creature synergy thing. if you draw them mid to late game, odds are you have some Beast Whisperer or Great Henge or similar effect that lets you cycle them away. then they're mana dorks or chump blockers that drew a card. Not to mention in G/X aristocrats decks or counter decks, they're also bodies to be sacrificed or put counters on. but maybe that's too specific to matter.

[@DanielEvanClarke]

@@TheSpunYarn you could just run better creatures in their place

[@gabzsy4924]

Brainstorm is both in the Baldur's Gate precon and in the Warhammer 40k precon.

[@adammorin2955]

Its also in the 2015 precon

[@thedanktank8434]

also prismari performance

[@SpecHallenbeck]

Atleast both those examples have reasons for the top deck manipulation(cascade and playing from the top to free equip) so it actually has a purpose

[@peewee0224]

⁠@@SpecHallenbeckit has a purpose in most decks

[@SpecHallenbeck]

@@peewee0224if you don’t have a consistent way to get rid of the cards you put back on top or take advantage of putting them back on top in an order you want, I’d say I’ve actually seen it screw people over a lot of the time.

[@Narkhada]

Cascade/discover decks can also make good use of Brainstorm. Getting the specific card you want to cascade into is great.

[@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS]

The argument is that 25% of decks are playing it when less than that should be. The ones that should be are the cascade/miracle/etc decks.

[@Narkhada]

@@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS Oh, I agree. Just mentioning a use that they didn't really talk about.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

This is a great idea! You could even call it "Disputing the Data"... No, wait... "Confronting the Statistics"... No, doesn't sound quite right... Well, I am sure you will think of something!

[@TheObstalace]

Maybe.. Challenge the Statistics? Mhm nah I feel like that's a little too longwinded

[@bennettpalmer1741]

I feel like people heavily overstate how bad being brainstorm locked is. Let's label the cards in the deck A,B,C, etc. for clarity You have 4 cards in hand, A,B,C, and D. The cards on top of your deck are E,F,G,H etc. A cantrip is on the stack - either a brainstorm without access to shuffle, or an opt. With opt, you can get E immediately, or skip past it and get F immediately. If you take E, it'll take you two additional draws to reach G, and three draws to reach H. If you bottom it, it'll take you 1 draw to reach G, and two draws to reach H. With brainstorm, you can get E,F, and G immediately. You then put any two cards you don't need immediately on top. It'll take you three draws to reach H. That's identical to an opt with a scry to the top, and one draw slower than an opt with a scry to the bottom. If the card you really needed was E, both get it immediately. If the card you really needed was F, opt gives you the chance to not scry properly and not get it until a turn later, while brainstorm gets it in hand immediately no matter what. If the card you really needed was G, brainstorm gets it in hand immediately, while opt has to wait at least a turn to get it. If you needed both E and F, opt forces you to wait a turn, while brainstorm get's it immediately. If you needed E and G, opt forces you to wait two turns. If you needed E and some card H or lower, both get you there at the same speed. If the card you needed is H or deeper, opt is faster by a turn, but only if you scry bottom. Otherwise they're the same. Brainstorm with a "lock" is either better or the same as opt, in every situation except when you need a card 4 deep in the deck or further, and also don't want the card on top, and also don't mind waiting to draw several additional cards anyway. And sure, that situation isn't exactly rare. But it's also far from universal. A lot of the time, you'll be thinking "I need a board wipe this turn or I die" or "I need to hit a mana rock so I can play my commander next turn." And so you'll fire off a cantrip to try to find it. Brainstorm is a better card in these urgent situations, even if you have to lock yourself to do it. With the ability to unlock yourself even some of the time, it's really not a contest.

[@TransformersBoss]

Brainstorm is typically pretty good to me. Like Tomer said, if you have something that abuses the top-card, Brainstorm is great. But, also, there are times I’d rather dig into the deck a bit, grab some lands and low-cost things, then save a couple of 3 & 4-drops for the next couple of turns. Yeah, there are times I want to shuffle, but there are also times I don’t want to shuffle. Probably still over-played, though

[@Kryptnyt]

I think Brainstorm is fine, and people aren't losing games because they casted a brainstorm, but I often want that deckslot for something else. Legacy players want to play with smaller decks, commander players wish they could put more cards in their decks.

[@WaterlooFlu]

I get that Deathrite Shaman isn't like auto include in very many decks, but it certainly never sucks.

[@Aetmero]

I got bullied by a deathrite shaman in a recent game. I was a lands deck they were able to both ramp and turn off my crucible of worlds.

[@T_Peazy]

Seth is a good magic player, so I don't understand why he can't seem to understand that card selection is better than "number of net cards drawn". Sign in Blood is better than it has any right to be especially in a 40 life format.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

I don't like cards that just net you one card. I prefer the bigger card draw especially because black is so good at synergistic card draw. I think that read the bones is good but sign in blood is mid. I'd rather a charcoal diamond (7%) or something like unearth which fits my gameplan and can cycle. I could see it getting all the play if it was an instant, but casting sign on turn 2 or even 3 to hit a land drop especially if you haven't gotten on the board yet seems like excess wheel spinning.

[@MTGGoldfish]

Does Sign in Blood really offer selection though? I think the main argument for it is tempo - you get the two cards right away.

[@peewee0224]

It literally just sees 2 cards it’s massively overrated. Brainstorm is better

[@Bindersquinch]

Richard: show me the empirical data that says cyclonic rift is good Also richard: ignores all the readily available data, AKA READING THE CARD

[@Myrical32007]

Like they said at the beginning, recently I've found that EDHrec is a tool, not a be all end all. Some of the most fun I've had in mtg deckbuilding is making decks with less use of EDHrec and more of scryfall like resources. Really leads to the decks feeling different than others with the same commander.

[@eldrasidar]

I feel like 25% for brainstorm is about right when you consider how many blue commanders care about drawing multiple cards, playing instants, or manipulating the top of your deck. It plays well with a wide variety of strategies. Urza can shuffle away stuff, Niv Mizzet will get 3 triggers off of it. You can prep a card from hand to setup Yuriko, Jodah, or Kinnan.

[@Kryptnyt]

@exsnypre Thawing Glaciers was a pretty competitive card in slower decks before fetches came out for a long time

[@ms.sysbit5511]

@@Kryptnytto be fair Thawing Glaciers was ramp before the cleanup errata. You could activate it in end step of other’s turn, untap, and do it again then pick it up in your end step.

[@peewee0224]

@exsnyprethank you my god I’m like people are spoiled with legacy. Brainstorm does so many other good things outside of being an ancestral recall at home

[@jpob5]

I don't think they mentioned at all that its an instant. Which immediately makes it better than Ponder/Preordain in draw-go type decks too.

[@grizzerotwofour7858]

Richard called himself a "weenie expert" hehehehehehe Also, why is my opponent using removal on my lightning greaves a bad thing? Thats one less removal pointed at my cmdr Finally, ive been playing edh since the 1st precons, cyclonic rift basically always wins me the game every time i cast it

[@GaaradancepartyX]

Wrath of god is 4 mana, there are very few that cost less and I have found that the regeneration clause on it actually comes up

[@stronggreenflame]

Okay so now I need a commander clash with different ramp methods, one person uses mana dorks, one uses spell land ramp, one uses creature land ramp, and one uses enchantments

[@stronggreenflame]

Also you can't play a deck where these are the obvious optimal choice. Just generic decks. No edric for the mana dorks, and no enchantress for the enchantment ramp, no land fall etc.

[@coryledwitch6492]

I agree with Tomer. Nobody’s going to board wipe turn 1-4, except in special circumstances. So, mana dorks are essential to have early game, if not to ramp into your mana rocks , but to be extra mana by turn 4 or 5 to get those 7,8,9 bombs out. Deathrite Shaman is NOT a mana dork. He should be run with life gain or punishment grave hate decks.

[@SubTactHiphop]

I love the mtggoldfish crew, im so glad you all are still doing content after my 3 year hiatus from magic.

[@zemineriver8043]

Crim in the demolition lovers sweatshirt and blue hair making him full grixis is actually fire

[@stonedphilosopher2185]

Actually, fire is fire.

[@zemineriver8043]

@@stonedphilosopher2185 never heard of figurative language?

[@stonedphilosopher2185]

@@zemineriver8043 Chandra's hair is actual fire! Yes, I've heard of this figurative language thing. My kid watches these Minecraft channels. The creators there literally say literally every sentence and it's literally never literal.

[@stonedphilosopher2185]

The thing is if you use the word actual figuratively, it kind of loses it's meaning altogether. Actual means non-figurative. I shouldn't let these kinds of things get to me, sorry. I concede, Crim's got style

[@Sparrow141420]

This is the longest challenge the stats section ever... by 6 minutes and 46 seconds. EDHRECast did a full episode on this too lololol

[@jacobhurst3129]

The main reason I use Wrath of God in 2023 is thats its 4 mana. I use vanquish the horde first, obviously. But I like having mana left over for other things, or to hold up mana for a counter. Sometimes I want to use a heroic intervention and then a wrath right after so its sort of a build-your-own one sided board wipe for my creature decks. That type of thing.

[@jmnaccount]

Any commander that has a "draw a card whenever you do X" effect wants teferi's ageless insight.

[@bejita7831]

Not playing fetch-lands because shuffling is a hassle, etc. - I would love to see a podcast of cards you don't play specifically because of the IRL hassle they create - stuff that would be fine in an automated system but just isn't worth it at the physical table

[@officeman15]

Cathars Crusade is up there. Honestly even something like Ivy Gleeful Spellthief is really annoying to track

[@Sybato]

Coat of Arms, I got it without fully reading the effect and boy oh boy is that too much math for me to care playing the card: *Each creature* gets +1/+1 for *each other creature* on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) This means everyone's creatures makes everyone's creatures stronger, it's just a global buff, but you have to remember every type of every creature on the board and adjust as more come and leave. I think you'd be targeted by the table just to get rid of the headache.

[@yoyoguy1st]

@@officeman15i was just about to comment the same thing. Cathar’s crusade is no doubt a powerful card but having to put +1 counters on like 10 creatures and keep track of them that way is such a hassle I’m always hoping that it gets removed from my board.

[@baconsir1159]

“Cyclonic Rift is an 8 mana Fog” More like a 7 mana Fog plus Time Stretch

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Cyclonic Rift also scales extremely well. The farther behind you are the MORE free turns you get from it.

[@peewee0224]

You misspelled 7 mana win the game.

[@AncientHydraGaming]

MTG Goldfish has joined the trend of Challenge The Stats.

[@DuckandDuctTape]

I think the real lesson of the mana dork debate is that people have gotten way too complacent with their lands with armageddons getting hated out of the meta. I meant to post this on the MLD commander clash, and just... didn't, but I would be down to see the occasional armageddon on Commander Clash. Not like every week, but I think it would be healthy as an occasional spice. If nothing else, it'll get Richard's opinions in check lol

[@DuckandDuctTape]

As much as I disagree with a lot of Richard's wild commander opinions, I can't disagree with his take on Cyclonic Rift haha. It's essentially a modal card where the modes are Win or fog the game for 2-3 turns. And everyone includes Cyclonic Rift because they want to use it to clear the board to set up the win , but then it ends up in their hand and someone else is about to win. And like, what are you going to do, not play it and lose? and now the game is a 4 hour slog. But at the same time, there's nothing else in mono blue that comes even close to what Cyclonic Rift does, the gap between it and the second best card is so wide it's not even worthwhile. If only there was another 7 or 8 mana instant that returned ALL non-lands to their owner's hands...

[@cameton_youtube]

I've been absolutely blown out by deathrite in cedh, so I think it's rated at least in a graveyard meta

[@Kestral287]

Deathrite is one of those cards that gets drastically better with how expensive your meta's manabase is. It's a lot more potent in cEDH than the average LGS where there's an average of like one fetch per deck.

[@Spaced92]

Yeah one of those moments where the crews lack of cedh experience shows itself. The flexibility is way better than consistent mana.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@Kestral287 Deathrite's FLOOR is mana dork. That's literally the worst use of its ability.

[@Kestral287]

No it isn't. The floor is that it can't tap for mana at all and has no relevant targets so it can... tap and pay mana to gain two life?

[@adammorin2955]

Deathrite wins literal games in cEDH

[@lucascoutinho8167]

What I think is the best aspect of mana dorks is how they are the cheapest way financially to get 3 mana on turn 2 and start doing other stuff be it 3+ mv land ramp (a lot more budget than the 2 mv options) or setting up a engine and finish your early development one turn earlier.

[@MtgBigFoot]

Tomer, please bring galadriel to the table and body them all. Run every phase out spell and put crim and Richard under a 6/6 elf.

[@PalPlays]

Seth is incredibly wrong about Sign in Blood. Phyrexian Arena takes THREE TURNS to break even on Sign in Blood and it costs one more mana! I would take Read the Bones over Phyrexian Arena any day of the week.

[@totakekeslider3835]

Actually arguing over whether or not Cyclonic Rift is a good card felt so surreal, lol. Like, that was a joke played for laughs, right? We’re all in Disney World!

[@shogun452]

I used to think mana dorks were bad, but modern magic cards are so powerful that ramping to your 5 and 6 drops can be worth losing a card later to a wrath. If your turn one play is a dork into a turn two cultivate or something, you are casting things like Elesh norn, elder gargaroth , powerful planeswalkers, etc before most people are even set up. Imagine casting two dorks and a ramp spell turns 1-3, and then casting an etali. Sure your dorks might die, but you got 4 cards for free before your opponents can fight back. You have to have the payoffs, but they have actually gotten better in recent years.

[@totallyrealname6376]

Recommending Propaganda and Ghostly Prison in Superfriends despite neither of them taxing attacks on your planeswalkers

[@reaperfoursixfiveoh9329]

Phil plays the mana dorks and consistently pops off to the point where the whole table has to join together to stop him

[@tecapran]

It's so painfully obvious how much more commander Tomer plays than the other 3.

[@Dragiceoriginal]

Ah yes, mana dorks are bad because Crim plays ten wraths. Y’all play WAY more Wrath effects than the average player. Mana dorks are totally fine lol

[@discoviolenza1984]

With Deathrite how much overall value do you want for a one cmc creature? On average i see it ramp at least once and deal 12 damage to the table.

[@MrDeadDivision]

Also like, being able to exile protean hulk decks or thassas in response to an underworld breach is so nice. People just forget that it does more than make mana and start trying to go off forgetting about deathrite.

[@altromonte15]

my issue with that is that it needs to tap. green has some of the best repeatable graveyard hate in the game with cards like scavenging ooze, a 1-drop that needs to tap and can remove only one card is not very efficient. it's not a bad card by any mean but I would never run it just for that. @@MrDeadDivision

[@MrDeadDivision]

@@altromonte15 for sure, it's just better than a lot of other mana dorks because it's basically a birds of para + some very niche counterplay. Like, unless someone's arguing creature type synergy for their deck I don't know why you wouldn't run it if you could and were going to run an extra mana dork. I do concede the card has a lot of nostalgia tied to it for me and I'm having trouble not cutting it for delighted halfling nowadays lol

[@altromonte15]

fore sure. IF you have fetchlands in your pods, it's one of the best dorks.@@MrDeadDivision

[@RedCometNurse]

Blue has a TON of Commanders that like to mess with the top of the deck. You don't need to be shuffling those cards, you might be casting stuff from the top of the deck. Blue does that a lot.

[@dhantefranklin336]

Correct

[@pokclaymonmaster5286]

“Every green deck is a land deck”. Seth I am hurt. Just because green has the best ramp spells does not mean it’s about the lands. There are far more synergies with creatures in green than lands. That’s two archetypes, However I do see what you mean and understand why you see it that way.

[@ImtheNorris]

While brainstorm is basically a cantrip in some decks, it does fix your early turn in some instances. Maybe you can fix your curve by just adding 2 additional cards to your hand before you decide to mulligan with.

[@LinkSmith-zb7rr]

Arguing mana dorks are bad is crazy. They are the best ramp that isn’t fast mana

[@EdBurke37]

So this video is basically an extended version of the Challenge the Stats segment from the EDGRecc cast? They stole the segue from the entire podcast!!!

[@juuuurgenful]

EDHREC even has a segment every week where they challenge the data on their site guys. And regarding Sign in blood effects I think it depends a bit on how you build. Dana on edhrec loves these, but he probably builds decks a bit different from Seth.

[@armoredduck]

Why does Seth think Minn and Alandra are "unplayable commanders"? Especially if you go on almost any forum and look for posts about "most fun commanders" you'll usually see someone mention Minn.

[@cainejohnson3227]

Man, even other channels are stealing challenge the stats now. No one tell Joey

[@helfiswelf]

Richard: I’ve never seen a Deathrite Shaman in cedh. Everyone else: sigh and head shake and laugh internally and question whether Richard even plays at all.

[@velphidrow]

He also said he wasn't sure if brainstorm was good in CEDH

[@zeroisnine]

Richard is so obviously the boss because if he wasn't he wouldn't be on a commander podcast

[@mjkuhnke]

I've actually grown more fond of the smaller black card draws over time as i've played more. Ive got nothing against phyexian arena but ive found 3 mana for 3 cards right now is more impactful than 3 mana for 3 cards after the table has gone full circle 3 times assuming nothing happens in the meantime.

[@CreateWorlds]

To harsh on the mana dorks. You don’t need them the whole game they’re just a little burst in the beginning and that’s fine. I don’t care if you take out my birds turn 4-5 it’s redundant by then and already ramped my to a threat you actually have to worry about 23:40

[@Kestral287]

The risk is that your mana is dependent on the dorks and so when you get Wrathed you lose your big threat plus your ability to deploy a second one. Very dependent on how much value you can get along the way because they are very efficient while they're in play though.

[@domotoroOfficial]

I'm so glad Tomer is speaking the truth on urborg and yavimaya, theyre so not needed for example in 2-to-3-color decks. I don't think he emphasized enough how good it is for your 5-color opponents to get that free fixing. GIVE THEM NOTHING!!!

[@BragaByte]

When I consulted EDHREC to set up my Zaxara I found several cards that interacted with creatures with power 3 or greater entering the field. The fact is that the tokens that Zaxara makes do not interact with these cards, unfortunately, since they enter as a 0/0 creature with the effect of gaining markers when on the field, unlike other hydras, which already enter with these markers.

[@caasIsirhC]

I think Teferi's Ageless Insight is worth a look if your commander has draw attached. Aminatou's +1 is really quite good with it out, Kadena drawing two cards, etc.

[@jointhetorterra]

Exactly, I run it in my Council of Four deck which has the sole purpose of just drawing as many cards as I can because I think it's funny, and this card does SO much work

[@caasIsirhC]

@@jointhetorterra In that deck it must be an all star!

[@XxMechaxWolfxX]

If your commander costs 3 or less, the upside of the turn 1 mana dork is very high and those decks are going to be running presumably any and every 1 mana mana dork they can. Turn 1 green source elf, turn 2 land commander is a play pattern that exists in pretty much every single 3 cmc or less green deck I have. Once you get up to 4+ MV on the commander, the mana dorks start to fall off unless your deck has some other use for the 1 mana 1/1 creature. Even if you have other ways to ramp for 1 mana that don't involve the creatures, I would think you probably just want to run both a lot of the time. Maybe not Utopia Sprawl, but I also end up putting in wild growth a good amount of the time as well.

[@jordancaldwell2208]

Richard: "MDFC ere amazing because options!" Also Richard "this card I don't like has 3 abilities but I'm only going to evaluate it like it has one."

[@tyleranderson1100]

I think for wrath of God, the stats may be skewed due to how recently some of the better white wraths have been printed. Since they’ve only been around for a few years compared to Wrath of God’s 30 years, there is significantly more data from edh decks containing wrath of god. So unless all those older decks are being edited or remade when new wraths are released, the data kind of represents an older general edh meta where wrath of God was one of if not the best wrath to run in white decks.

[@jayjayhooksch1]

Edhrec only shows data from decks that have been updated or posted within 2 years to avoid such data skew.

[@TJMiton]

the take of 'brainstorm is worse than opt' is the most insane thing ive ever heard... spoiler alert; cantrips are excellent in ALL formats, and brainstorm is so much better than most cantrips.

[@jacobclark490]

Teferi's Ageless Insight + Sauron the Dark Lord = 🔥

[@matthewjennings7645]

EDHRec also perpetuates based on what cards used to be banned/unbanned or rules changes. For many years people would add Celestial Dawn to their Zedruu decks. In old rules, producing mana of a color other than your commander color identity would result in colorless mana (Rules changed because of Oath of the Gatewatch) For Zedruu, she could play a jank color fixing enchantment, then donate to a player who lacks white mana in their color identity. Their colored spells would require white but the mana would all be colorless. It was one of the best cards for Zedruu but lingered on EHDRec for a very long time.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

Celestial Dawn, on a similar note, was also mandatory for Sen Triplets to enable you to cast green or red spells from your opponents hands

[@commanderpower99]

Richard's argument for Cyc Rift is the same for his beloved wraths. Instead of progressing your own gameplan, you are making the game longer.

[@aaronwindham6065]

I use brainstorm in yuriko, its nice to manipulate my top deck. I love deathrite in my muldrotha and krovlod deck too

[@DabbleDo]

I think it’s easy to forget this is a format designed to let people use their old cards. People just wanna cast a Brainstorm or a Deathrite Shaman, it ain’t so serious

[@markgruner5812]

Richard is just delusional lol, I have never seen a cyc rift resolve that didn't drastically change the game. Even if you just cast it cause things are getting scary it's WAYYYYY more than just adding anther turn. It keeps you at whatever turn of progression you were at and sets everyone back to zero minus their lands, and god help them if they were mostly getting by with artifact ramp.

[@Minervastouch]

Brainstorm even without fetches is still good, maybe not 25% good but still good. Your seeing 3 new cards, yes you don't get to keep all the cards but if you have at least 1 card in your hand when you cast it, you can keep the best 2 out of the 3 that came out of the top deck and if you have 2 cards then you CAN keep all 3. Its card selection rather then advantage and sometimes getting to those cards sooner can make a difference. Its not 25% of all blue decks good but its still a very good card even in a commander deck without a synergy. That being said you could find other cards to replace this or room for your pet cards by removing brain storm.

[@madamimadam5269]

I built a Toxrill deck shortly after it came out and soooo many of the cards on EDHREC were infect cards… which I now know have absolutely no place in that deck 😂

[@GellyGelbertson]

infect creatures deal damage to other creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters, so if you're leaning hard into that strategy it may make sense. probably overcomplicating it tho lmao

[@madamimadam5269]

@@GellyGelbertson sure if you lean hard into it, but there are much more idealized/powerful ways to get the same effect of your opponents creatures dying. I’m not saying it’s not fun, it’s totally fun to sue infect, it’s just not the best way to control the board and win in Toxrill decks

[@nykthosacolyte5710]

To be fair Viral Drake is legitimately there for the proliferate not the infect and with Toxrill a single -1/-1 on a creature turns each proliferate into -2/-2 instead of -1/-1. Toxrill likes SOME of the infect cards.

[@Kryptnyt]

Toxrill is a one card win condition, putting anything that could win the game in the 99 is probably a mistake

[@nykthosacolyte5710]

@@Kryptnyt not really, there are a lot of win cons that fit very well in Toxrill (see it's cedh deck list as an example)

[@andyspendlove1019]

Big agree that mana dorks are underrated. Especially Llanowar Tribe in casual mono-G. Why yes, I’d absolutely love to be on 7 mana on T4. Or T3 if I played Llanowar Elves on T1.

[@shanebrinson7742]

Sign in blood is a 2 mana 6 damage to the face with sheoldred

[@liammanning8334]

Sign in blood is great. The problem is people make a deck and blanket statement card draw as simply card draw. And that in my opinion is wrong. Often you need cheap simple card draw like sign in blood to fix land drops and keep the deck flowing . Then you need a small handful of card draw engines. The cards like sign in blood help you find your engines. Engines are often more expensive and clunky. But both have their place. Ageless insight is a perfect example of an engine (in the right deck)

[@Darthdesmond]

Deathrite is much much more than a mana dork. It hose the graveyard, as well.

[@conker1847]

I'm confused about the teferi's insight rant, 6% seems like not a lot??

[@MrMartinSchou]

If you're "annoyed" that your opponents are always playing Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, punish them by playing with Kormus Bell and your creature destruction has become land destruction. It also gives their land summoning sickness, for an added bonus.

[@IgnMatthew8487]

I play a Child of Alara gates deck with 59 lands 20 of them fetches, never thought of brainstorm going to put that in.

[@nykthosacolyte5710]

I'll say it... People SHOULD run more mana dorks. They enable you to do bigger plays quicker and to ramp out fastee. If you aren't expecting long games dorks are actually insanely good. Like ignoring $50+ cards putting in enough mana dorks to consistently have one turn 1 does a lot to accelerate most mono green decks BEFORE people start dropping wraths and ideally you are getting down something that makes the wraths not actually hurt as bad like one of the expensive mass ramp spells.

[@christiangalvan2943]

I watch the videos and listen to the podcasts while I work. Thank yall for helping me laugh through the days!

[@MakeVarahHappen]

The flip side to you wrathing the mana dork player is they dropped bolas's citadel on turn four meanwhile all your ramp ETBed tapped and costs twice as much. Also the difference between guardian project and tireless tracker is per card tireless tracker costs three extra mana (two for clue one mana tax for efficient land ramp).

[@gamerp1g]

I understand why in the commander clash group they criticize the mana dorks. If someone in my pod was running 10 wraths I wouldn’t run mana dorks either. But my pod generally likes games where we are not all just spending the whole game rebuilding after wraths. So we run 2 maybe 3 in a any given deck. Personally, if I looked at someone’s deck and saw 10 wrath’s I probably just wouldn’t play with them cause I do not find that fun. No shame in their game but not fun for me personally.

[@jaredwright1655]

Cyclonic rift is the best 7 mana evasion spell

[@Myrical32007]

It might be the meta I play in but immediate card draw like sign in blood is way better than things like phyrexian arena. I like to look at it in terms of mana to cards gained. - Sign in blood i n s t a n t l y gives you two cards for two mana. Even if you draw this card in the late stages of the game its effects are instant. - Phyrexian arena when it enters gives you nothing for 3 mana, and will take 2 turns to give the the same amount of card advantage as Sign in blood, even still being one mana worse. If you draw this card in the late game its basically a dead card. The few times that phyrexian arena shines are when you get it early, and it will eventually give you more card advantage than Sign in blood. Getting to the point takes three turns giving you 3 cards for 3 mana. Most cards in Magic are situational. This is no different, and I still find that sign in blood is better in more scenarios.

[@DarthChocolate15]

This somehow actually made me want to reconsider *adding* Teferi's Ageless Insight to some spellslinger decks. Most of the spellslinger decks I build are interested in casting multiple cantrips in a turn; TAI would likely function as a second copy of Whirlwind of Thought in a lot of cases, being worse sometimes but better others. I'll have too look at how many effects "draw a card" and "draw multiple cards" vs "put a card in your hand" (or don't cantrip at all).

[@BillyTheFridge]

Right? I've had it sitting in a pile of playables that haven't made it into a deck and now I'm thinking it fits very well into my Lord of Nazgul deck