Rakdos Carnage in Standard and Discussing Commander Bans

[@bassdoll1548]

commander should have a restricted list, where you can only have 1 copy of some cards

[@tylerblalack6684]

Lmao nice

[@bernabes8424]

This guy gets it

[@jekanyika]

I agree with Seth, the bans are fine.

[@30LayersOfKevlar]

Normal players didn't complain (much) about the bans. Only the people who sat on X copies as an "investment", did.

[@lukeivan1]

I support the bans but most of the people who complained probably only owned 1 or 2 copies of any of the cards.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@lukeivan1 Yes but most copies are owned by secondary market sellers

[@OddMidnight]

That's the thing about investments... They're a risk. All those people who are complaining that there's now no point in investing in cardboard art knew what they were doing before they bought it. Moxes and lotuses have historically been the biggest offenders when it comes to breaking formats, and somehow, they thought commander, a format built around casual/kitchen table play, would be different.

[@RLKC8]

im just sad red in cedh got punched in the gut

[@Dext3rM0rg4n]

@OddMidnight turn out investing in hightly volatile and low liquidity asset is dangerous, who knew !

[@codywilson4938]

Seth thank you for voicing your perspective. Everyone can say that 'house rule solves everything' but the group I played with for years of my close friends never felt good to have that convo. Definitely dysfunctional but we did follow the ban list and I can attest that we needed it. Like my second game I played a precon against turn one mana crypt. As someone who could never afford to match that play pattern I think this ban is for the best.

[@sidneypowelstock6812]

I can't believe how many people are against the bans

[@TheEvolver311]

Why not? Most players are fickle and just want to complain about something. Like how Modern players complained and pushed WotC to make the MH sets after years of push back from WotC. Then, once WotC caved in and gave us the thing the majority wanted it pretty instantly became "evil WotC want to ruin Modern and force us to play Pioneer" etc..

[@sidneypowelstock6812]

@@TheEvolver311 I guess you're right. If I'm gonna complain personally it would be about cards being too powerful. It's weird to me to think that people would want busted cards in a casual format

[@HTXVintageVibes]

Idk why. 90% is table top groups. Table rules / play group for most part. It really only matters when in a sanctioned event. It’s a casual format in large…. So casually……who cares? Financially it’s a great opportunity to pick the cards up if ya want them and they WILL bounce back. If not proxy and play with your EDH decks. If those people are actually playing CEDH events that live and die by the councils rules and bans then don’t use it there?!? It’s not a huge deal either way. Playgroups decide the rules. Just my 2cents

[@brandonberger2657]

They are mad that wizards prints crazy cards to prop up their products when they know full well that it will hurt formats and have high chances of banning. Its annoying when a set is priced out of your range because they pump it with cards that will get banned in the future anyway .

[@RajivAyyagari]

I am pro bans

[@colecarmichael5724]

Right how could one not be

[@TheEvolver311]

@@colecarmichael5724 people are wishy washy

[@daktastik]

Ban EDH. Mandatory penny dreadful for all

[@TheEvolver311]

People dont like the bans because Magic players always think the busted thing they do is ok but that other player using the same stuff to a different broken thing.....get the pitchfork

[@Pug8]

It's why I miss EDH from pre-2014. Everything was normal.

[@pwoo581]

Seth is so right , casual games need a ban list because I can’t rebuild my deck at an lgs or a command fest. If you have a play group you can do whatever you want , you can play made up cards, ante cards, proxy cards, yugioh cards, go nuts

[@blueredlover1060]

Here's my thing. The ban list shouldn't be based on the secondary market, yet they have a sideways glance at the secondary market in the Reserved List. It feels rather scummy to me that Wizards supposedly can't watch the secondary market, but their biggest reprint policy is entirely based on the secondary market. Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with collectors who aren't going to play the game losing money by holding cards. While collectors are generally fine, Wizard's unwillingness to actually reprint valuable cards with any consistency combined with people sitting on the most playable game pieces speaks to a level of entitlement that I can't stand.

[@ninjastealth101]

Audio couldn’t have sounded more fine for me haha I’m not sure what was going on

[@_narcosis]

local game stores are doing the investment game, its a big part of their business model that being said I don't think card price should factor into ban lists at all, and if people are going to proxy these cards then I am going to proxy prime time in my windgrace deck and never lose a game

[@AbsolutelyGeek]

Imho as far as csual ormal EDH, Lotus should not have been printed, it was made just to sell packs and it instantly become an expensive staple and burned a lot of people wallets with the ban. As a cedh player however, I think it was actually a good card, helping higher cmc commanders to become playable where otherwise they would not, which is what's likely going to happen and the format will go back to commanders that are under 3 cmc (Thrasios, Rograkh, Tymna) or are not meant to actually be cast (Inalla\Silas) while the deck does its own stuff. Cedh used to be a format where tier 2 decks were perfectly viable, without lotus, crypt and dockside, I think that's not the case anymore. To be honest I'll wait before buying the next chase card that will inevitably be printed in the next commander product. I own all of those, but to be honest I got dockside from the precon in a time when there was just a yearly release and I bought them all when they came out (today not so much) so whatever, Mana Crypt I got for relatively cheap, because I am an old player, the only one I spent significant money is Lotus...

[@OGTahoe3]

Thassas oracle isn't the issue. It's the others cards that remove your library at Instant speed

[@timothye.2902]

I think Thassa's is too difficult to interact with. You either counter it or counter the ETB (or stax out the ETB). Those types of counterspells are only available to blue. 3.5/5ths of the colour pie having 0 way to meaningfully interact with Thoracle is a problem. There's a reason she's used over laboratory maniac and Jace, since they are significantly easier for all the mardu colors to interact with *and* require a draw effect.

[@samsprague3158]

What’s your basis for this? Imo, all those other cards would be fun to try to mess around with if it weren’t for oracle. And oracle is inherently unfun (assuming it’s played as a combo piece).

[@Herlequine]

I literally just built this deck yesterday. Glad to see others see how powerful the combo is.

[@HTXVintageVibes]

The caretakers talent deck looks like a great jumping off point to bring that deck into the new set. It def needs a good deal of work, but I can see it really working well if some work and card selection goes into it. I was running Boris caretakers tokens pre Duskmourn and was hoping for something like this. 👍 gonna start working on it I think. I’ll let you know if it comes together. Too many of the cards in the old meta were meh. I think the green seasons is going to shut people out as well. Overrun plus destroy all enchantments is gonna be breaking.

[@HTXVintageVibes]

The real scary deck is mono red special Olympics with turn 2 kill with leyline

[@PainasaurusRex]

What Seth said is where I am, Wotc shouldn't print terrible cards that need banning that are obviously terrible. I understand Nadu was mistake, but jeweled lotus was just obviously terrible.

[@RedPandaStan]

most cedh players, the ones who proxy, are excited for the meta shakeup. the only people who are pissed are the vocal minority that buys their decks.

[@snappyturtle8721]

To be fair, most cedh discourse I've seen around these bans focuses on how they affect fringe decks but not meta decks. Blue Farm, Rogsi, and the top of the pile are unaffected, while any mono red deck or fringe expensive commander is kneecapped by losing access to dockside, crypt, and lotus. I am not strongly for or against the bans, but I don't think it is accurate to say they will "shake up" the cedh meta when they essentially do nothing to the best decks in the format.

[@Le_beaubrun]

pro ban for similar reasons, will make lgs games smoother

[@TheEvolver311]

I'm interested to see how many players don't show up to the LGS this weekend.

[@Dext3rM0rg4n]

@TheEvolver311 probably almost exactly the same number as last week ? Maybe it's a local meta thing but people don't play fast mana against random people in an LGS anyway, those bans only punish the sweatiest pub stompers.

[@Le_beaubrun]

@@Dext3rM0rg4n exactly

[@matthewjennings7645]

I agree that fast mana is a big problem, I just wish they were consistent with it. Ancient Tomb, cradle, some moxen, etc.

[@ianroth9381]

The bans are fine, in my opinion they really need to separate CEDH and casual. Let the CEDH allow all this broken fast mana combo stuff and then ban it in casual. The biggest complaint I hear about separating them is it will rift the player base but in my opinion you are already in one of the two camps to begin with. You either play casual more or CEDH more I really only see the high power players upset and it is definitely because of the price tags associated with the 3 fast mana cards. Sol ring should 100% be banned as well.

[@MrMartinSchou]

Here's a question: Many people are upset with the bans because these were expensive cards. To my mind the bans were needed because it's insane that you "need" to spend hundreds of dollars on one or two cards just to remain even somewhat competitive at your local game store (as in not always finishing 4th). Would these people have been upset if Wizards had started printing these cards into far more products? E.g. putting Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt into all precons without significantly increasing the price of the precons. If the Bloomburrow commander decks each were $10 more expensive, but also came with Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt, that would also make the prices of the existing cards more or less crash. You'd be able to get 4 Jeweled Lotus and 4 Mana Crypt for around $270, making the individual card cost no more than $34.

[@1997Awesomedude]

I think the biggest issue with banning Sol Ring is that you'd immediately make basically every precon ever printed illegal out of the box. That would really suck for people who decide they want to get into the format, buy a precon, and go to sitdown at an LGS table only to find out they don't have a legal deck

[@erichluepke855]

There's some virtue to dropping the bans all at once. The speculation created by staggering the rollout of bans or announcing them piecemeal would create more opportunities for leaks and speculation. I agree that it would have gone over better if it wasn't so sudden but I also think there are bigger concerns.

[@bernabes8424]

Great bans. The Rule Zero thing is just another banlist but with extra steps

[@KeganKirby]

I like not having fast mana, I wish they would address cedh just a little so that it isn't a 3 deck (or whatever) format. As far as sol ring goes, it would definitely be better to have gone from the anti fast mana angle, I just think it's important to remember that one fast mana card per deck is so much more manageable than 2-3 or even more fast mana pieces in each deck. Will sol ring continue to warp games? Yes absolutely. But having the other big names in big mana gone help curb the consistency of these games

[@aidancockroft88]

Against talent Seth could have topdecked carnage and drawn into another skinripper for the win. Despite literally having just shown off the combo the previous game he seemed to think he needed two different things when carnage would likely have been enough...

[@deadded5793]

1:35:52 play egoist and search for the fable passage. Thats 4 damage. + attack with the bat.

[@brandonberger2657]

everyone defends Wizards saying "they dont care about secondary market..etc." but if that was actually true they would not have charged 400 bucks for 12 packs of cards. They put an imperial seal and dockside in and all of the sudden they can charge double for that set.

[@RIHTZ]

Wizards has made banning sol ring logistically impossible. at this point, there is such a huge downside from a new-player perspective with every precon becoming illegal

[@thatoneguy7781]

I said "wack" when I saw that mana crypt was banned but not mana vault or sol ring. But otherwise was fine with the rest

[@Afrothoz]

I think we didn't need proper bans. Guidelines for play? At the end of the day if people turn up and want to play those cards in EDH they will. I wish there was a ruling that felt like it reflected the flexibility of the most political, interpersonal format.

[@Xerdoz]

They make a card just for commander, it's absolutely broken in everywhere else. They ban it. A few days later they ban the card made for commander in commander. Great card design.

[@tylerblalack6684]

How many cards are there?? They're going to mess some up.

[@Bubblenuts13]

I’d be interested to see WOTC double down now after seeing the backlash and finally break the format up. Imagine they announce the creation of two official formats, creating three. One is CEDH or Competitive Commander. This format has a unique banlist built for competitive and even tournament play. People act like breaking this into its own thing would taint it, but I don’t really know any good arguments against it. Than the other new Format is called Commander Legacy. A format similar to what we have now but with even less cards banned. Basically take current commander but unban the ones they just did and a few others. The format is managed like how Commander has been in the past, things only being banned if they truly have a terrible play pattern. Nadu would remain banned. Then the third format is Commander. Commander is now a much heavily catered to format. Is could be called Battle Cruiser Commander. Here we don’t ban based on fun but there is still specific rules that go into play for the much longer ban list. Here are some: -Time Equity (Ban Most Tutors, Land Tutors including Fetch Lands and Cultivates, Hyper Efficient MLD, Wheels, Fiddly cards like Senseis Top, Extra Turn Spells, Game Extenders like Stasis, Reset cards like Warp World) -Overly Powerful Cards: Fast mana, things like Fastbond, Karakas, etc. -Anti format cards: Drannith Magistrate, Oko, cards that go against the spirit of commander in too direct a way. This is my pitch. If they did something like this, I genuinely think the player base would be way happier. The competitive players would benefit as their format wouldn’t be tied into something so different. The rule zero players would get to keep playing commander as they are, and those looking for a catered and closer to balanced experience would actually get that.

[@grendelrising6413]

I never bought the cards individually, got them through boosters, but it just feels bad to have a $100 card lose a ton of value. That said, they need to separate cEDH and casual EDH.

[@tylerblalack6684]

It's a $1 game piece.

[@grendelrising6413]

@@tylerblalack6684that would be nice, but that isn’t reality. Or can I send a screenshot of your quote to Card kingdom and they’ll honor that price?

[@MrMartinSchou]

34:30 - So you'd surrender to the violent threats?

[@erekdoucette2269]

Alot of people upset probably cause the money they spent to get those cards. Makes them salty and might drop there price

[@mutaharyourmomisinmyharema1373]

They deserve it for using toxic cards

[@jekanyika]

Cards getting banned isn't a new thing. If you spend a load of money on a powerful card you should know there is a high chance of it getting banned.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@jekanyika Not in Commander bans are very rare

[@jekanyika]

@@TheEvolver311 Rare things still happen

[@Kryptnyt]

You know, Mana Crypt's price is holding up surprisingly well. I thought it'd drop to like twenty dollars

[@TheTrooper424]

Give it time.

[@TheEvolver311]

Which version

[@MrMartinSchou]

24:34 - "If you were on the RC, and you knew this was happening, why wouldn't you sell your cards?" Because it'd be unethical and immoral. It'd be like playing with someone you're trying to teach how to play the game, so you see the cards in their hand, and you plan your game actions based on what you see in their hand. When someone says "of course you would do it" says a lot about that person. If you say "I would not be surprised if someone would" doesn't, because that's just an unfortunate reality. If you use your position of privilege to enrich yourself at the cost of those without that privilege, then you're a terrible person who shouldn't have that privilege. Doesn't matter if it's a member of the commander rules committee, a politician with inside knowledge, or someone using insider knowledge to enrich themselves via the stock market or anything else really.

[@wickidgames]

Heres why i dont think armageddon should be banned. "Hey does anyone here run MLD?" "I do" "Would you mind not running that deck and if you wont change decks ill excuse myself from this table"

[@wickidgames]

Alternatively, I've already spoke to my playgroup, and rule 0'd dockside into one of my decks. So I guess I really don't care.

[@swy334]

Sound was fine

[@CallsignShowtime]

Common Seth W with the bans

[@RIHTZ]

I am pro bans, but I also didn’t own any of the cards, sooo….

[@RIHTZ]

granted, I opened a foil jeweled lotus a few years ago (my best pack open ever), and ended up selling it at MagicCon Chicago. if I had held onto it, or put it in a deck, I would probably be a little upset.

[@soonerj97]

Has anyone ever told you they didn't like their labotomy? 1:02:29

[@everyonesfavorite8238]

Competitive Commander has completely different gameplay from normal Commander, it should probably just have a different smaller ban list so people don’t have to be salty when they ban cards in normal Commander.

[@TheEvolver311]

It can't because they want to part of commander and enjoy the blind eye to proxies in none sanctioned events. The moment it divides from EDH WotC will have to directly oversee it as a competitive multi-player format and WotC will certainly ban many more probably all the reserve list cards etc...

[@Pug8]

I just wish that cEDH would be a separate community. It's been ruining the fun of commander and pushing the power level of the format for years and essentially forces commander staples to regularly rotate.

[@hunterstrong3318]

I spiraled for a minute

[@CyberNewType]

Sol Ring isn’t getting banned cause that would make about 95% of precons illegal decks. Period. End of story.

[@tylerblalack6684]

Yes, he said that about a dozen times. Still not hard to replace 1 card, if they did ever do it.

[@ironman12348]

Bans are great. Social media is just full of loud cEDH players complaining. Way more people play casual and we aren’t all on twitter

[@wickidgames]

I own a dockside already rule 0'd it in my playgroup

[@JStack]

cEDH should just be a borderline no ban list and entirely separate from EDH

[@TheTrooper424]

Agreed. Hard to complain at that point.

[@nathanchan8495]

As someone against the bannings, I'll explain my line of reasoning. Commander is a format built on three pillars: social play, creativity, and deck stability. That's not my opinion; these are the three pillars that the RC has on their own website. The ban list is explicitly there to guide players towards these pillars, and warn them of things that go against these pillars. As such, the RC has stated before that they don't ban on power level, because people can still have a positive social experience while playing at high power, and I think that's the crux of the argument here. Let's clarify something here: 4 people playing at the same high power with fast mana is very easily a positive social play experience for all players. That's not an issue. If people want to jam out Yuriko vs. Miirym vs. Ur-Dragon vs. Lathril, that's perfectly fine and a valid desire for Commander - it doesn't violate any of the three pillars. The problem only arises when the power level of decks is lopsided - one person is playing high power (usually powered by fast mana, but not always), and other people are playing at a different power level. This kind of pod violates the social play pillar more often than not - unless everyone wants an archenemy and the powerful player wants to be archenemy all the time, people aren't having a good social time. And those conditions are not common. So why do I think banning fast mana is a bad thing? Because it guides against a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself. When you ban powerful cards like Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, etc., you say to people new to the format that Commander wants to discourage high power as one of its pillars, which it doesn't - that's not one of the pillars. Commander wants to promote people to create good social play experiences - which moderating the power level of your decks is an integral part of, but doesn't mean that you should shun high power entirely from the format. Imo, the ban list should instead aim to ban cards that create negative social play experiences. I'm disappointed that cards like extra turns (Nexus of Fate, Karn's Temporal Sundering, etc.) were not banned in this announcement, and I'm happy that they banned Nadu. These are cards that for the vast majority of people, are agonizingly painful to play with and create a bad social play experience, which goes directly against one of the pillars of the format. Instead of banning too high or too low power (and yes, having a person who is too low power for the table is not the best table experience either), the RC should be using the ban list or other tools to giving people better tools or heuristics to evaluate the power levels of their decks, and discussing these desired power levels with other players at LGSes. The ban list should be used to guide new players especially from cards that overwhelmingly create bad social play experiences. It should not be used to moderate the power level of the format - that is a very bad precedent and with the recent bannings, I'm not very optimistic about the direction the RC is going. I do understand their position is a difficult one and I don't harbor any ill will towards them for it, but I hope that they don't continue along this current line of bannings in the future.

[@kylejohnson4662]

I’ve pretty much quit paper magic. As such, I’ve been trying to sell my Dockside and Jeweled Lotus, which now are both totally worthless.

[@TheEvolver311]

If you wait 15 years they might be worth a few bucks like just under the crappiest reserve list cards

[@James-tk2yl]

1:54:07 LMAO

[@drewbuckingham6985]

I believe if Nadu is worth banning, then Ivy Spell Thief should also be banned. I don't even think it should have been banned in modern, Harsh Mentor was a good answer to it.

[@Pug8]

I'm glad, keep cEDH separate. It was never meant as a competitive format, go create your own format. It makes commander events miserable.

[@ericvernon1182]

3 of the 4 bans are fine... But Jeweled Lotus is a scummy ban...card is straight trash now...

[@TheEvolver311]

It can go hangout with the Ante cards

[@Pug8]

Nah it was a stupid card to print in any way it'll go up when cEDH finally splits off and we are free from half catering to a community that is completely separate.

[@Soulus101]

It shouldn't have existed in the first place (or should have been an uncommon)