Vietnamese Tonkin Saber (Guom)

[@lilbear5271]

I'm Vietnamese. Many of my ancestors were military officers. And my family still keeps some 300-500 years old Guoms. Their steel quality is very good.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

That’s great, hang on to your family heritage.

[@JT_Soul]

Excellent video. Very nice to see some swords from a country whose pre-20th-century military history is fascinating but often somewhat under-discussed on KZbin.

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks. We hope by making this video, we'll be able to learn more.

[@michaelel650]

I teach HEMA in the UK, in the Scottish Highlands, mainly using late 15th Century to early 17th Century treatises. Being influenced by the writings of George Silver I look for basic body-movement and tactical principles that unite fighting styles from East to West. I really enjoy your presentations as they are down to earth, unpretentious and informative. Blades averaging around 24 inches seem common, from Uchigatana to Langesmesser. Often these are used with buckler-type light shields or larger, if of a similar weight, organic shields (leathe/rrattan etc.) noting that Bronze Age Ewart Park type swords also handle in a similar way. Are you going to explore any sword and shield work from the Chinese or Vietnamese traditions? Thank you again for your videos. All the best.

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks for your interest... We've covered Chinese Saber & Shield at the Academy, here's an excerpt from one Webinar- kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqameqKFr9J7bLc

[@JT_Soul]

"Blades averaging around 24 inches seem common" Very true, and funny you should say that because I just picked up a nice Congolese ikakalaka with similar dimensions. As you point out, it would also have been used with a large organic shield. It seems to be a fairly global combo, which I would guess means it was effective!

[@JonseyWales]

These videos are additively good, so I watch them as soon as I see them posted. Fascinating, informative and presented in such a professional and contagiously enthusiastic style. It's a pleasure to watch them. So, many thanks!!

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Thanks brother, always happy to hear that! More coming...

[@josenwushangkehan]

Thank you Shifu...Very very interesting aspect on Vietnamese sword....

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

My pleasure, thanks for your support.

[@jeffryc.larson3952]

That's a great piece. I really appreciate it's value as an example of a fighting sword versus something ornamental/ceremonial.

[@mugenGRTC]

It's very interesting to see the great difference in quality of the blades between these fighters verses the court swords. Hopefully we'll other to study in the future.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

I've truly enjoyed handling, really has a solid feel in the hand for such a short sword.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Thanks to all those who shared info about the pronunciation of Vietnamese and information about Vietnamese culture and martial arts. I was hoping to learn more...

[@MrAllmightyCornholioz]

No problem! Love your videos and been a follower since late 2000s! Your work inspired me to be interested in jianfa!

[@Wastelandman7000]

Interesting. I'd add that if you look at the Zulu method of fighting they had a similar idea. Weapon in the strong hand, large shield in the off hand. For similar reasons. Dying of heat prostration doesn't kill the enemy.

[@mugenGRTC]

Plus the sword and shield combination, in addition to be effective, is much cheaper to produce and arm men with compared with full armor.

[@gozer87]

Great review of a weapon frm an often overlooked area.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

Thanks, we’ll look at other Vietnamese weapons in future videos.

[@Wastelandman7000]

I also find it interesting that the sword as a sidearm seems to be mostly universal. Other than the Romans most societies relied on polearms for actual war fighting. Swords and/or battle axes were "sidearms" for if you lost or broke your primary weapon.

[@mangtwi]

this is awesome. I am playing a story driven game, and almost gave my character this sword. Still thinking hard on it, lol. I thoroughly enjoyed the documentation, and the history. thank you so much!

[@kevincolwell9575]

the steel looks like they took great care when smelting/piling it together.

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks for the feedback Prof.

[@iantheduellist]

Are you also going to talk about the Vietnamese Truong Dao? Its similar to the DaDao but larger and with way more of a narrow base and wider tip. It really flares out towards the tip, much more than the Dadao.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

Probably in the future, we’ve a LOOOOONG list of videos we plan on making… 🎥

[@bartangel4867]

good video interesting sword

[@MrAllmightyCornholioz]

Hey Shifu Scott! Appreciate your video on Vietnamese sword! The pronounciation of the vowel "ươ" is pronounced like e as in "gēge 哥哥". It's the non-sinovietnamese pronounciation of kiếm (劍) although it referes to both straight and curved blades. So it would be pronounced like "gem" in Mandarin with the -m sound.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

Thanks for that, I always try to get the pronunciation of non-English terms right.

[@nguyenquanghung2344]

its must have something happen in 14-15th century that both Vietnamese and Korean using term Gươm-Geom for sword-blade.

[@MrAllmightyCornholioz]

@@nguyenquanghung2344 It might be because most swords in Vietnam are single edge and rarely Jian type, so therefore it just means any kind of sword. And we call knives/blades dao or when specifying the Chinese Dao then we call it Đao.

[@kurtsteiner8384]

Looks simular to japanese wakizashi of the samuraui era.

[@mugenGRTC]

Japanese swords were one of the influences on Vietnamese sword. Chinese swords were another.

[@toddward6094]

So similar to the amalgamation that is Okinawan Tinbe Rochin. Cool info and artifacts sir! ❤ Chat...

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks, more coming...

[@bodhranlowd]

Thanks for the excellent content. How come they inscribed Chinese writings on the sword?

[@mugenGRTC]

Vietnamese used Chinese script before the French colonization.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

I’m not an expert in pre-colonial Vietnamese, but it is my understanding that when the Vietnamese adopted the Chinese writing system, that they also made the characters more complex. I don’t know if they made all the Characters more complex than the original Chinese ones, or just portion. Can someone please elaborate? Thanks.

[@MrAllmightyCornholioz]

@@smrsevenstarstradingco.241 Are you talking about Chữ Nôm? Chữ Nôm is basically an extension to represent native Vietnamese much like Zhuang language written in Sawndip. Some characters are directly from Chinese while others are invented to reflect native sounds. However, Classical Chinese is still prefered when writing official documents like academia, government, international affairs, etc. Chinese is still written even during colonial times and the Latin script wasn't officially standarize until independence. Many Vietnamese nationalists such as Phan Bội Châu and Hồ Chí Minh came from Confucian background and were fluent in writing Chinese.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

@@MrAllmightyCornholiozthanks for that added info, quite interesting.

[@AiLiang-hh2zg]

the image of women practicing swordplay appear to be militia members of the Hoa Hao sect, a fascinating religious movement and a cool piece of history.

[@mugenGRTC]

Curious... can you tell us more about that militia?

[@AiLiang-hh2zg]

@@mugenGRTC Hoa Hao is a religious combination of Vietnamese folk religion, Confucianism and Buddhism, began in the 1930s, I think. Its mostly a common folks' religion, with laborers, peasants, etc. It gradually developed strong nationalistic elements, and its members became more militaristic over time, especially post- Japanese occupation and into the Indochina War.

[@MrAllmightyCornholioz]

@@AiLiang-hh2zg It's mostly Buddhism, but more of a heterodox because of the syncreticism. Oddly enough, the founder was raised Catholic and the new religion had no Catholic influences. On the other hand, there is Caodaism, which like Hoa Hao has nationalisitic, militaristic, and were anti-colonial/anti-communist. Unlike Hoa Hao, it combines not only Buddhism/Confucianism but Christianity as well.

[@Pham-Nguyen-Binh]

Nice collection, but maybe there are some wrong information. At first, we don't call ourself Tonkin, Annam, Cochinchina; in history we are different country also different ethnicity, which called "Đàng-Trong" (Trịnh-Lê dynasty - belong the south today) and "Đàng-Ngoài" (Nguyễn dynasty - belong the north today). So martial art will be different too. The "gươm" (鎌) on your hand is the infantry single hand weapon of Nguyễn dynasty. The photos you upload, there are different kind of ethnicity; include: Nam-kỳ (Đàng-Trong), Bắc-kỳ (Đàng-Ngoài), người-Thượng (the people live on the moutain). The photo women use a "gươm" cut from bottom up belong "đội nữ-dân-quân Phật-giáo Hòa-Hảo" (female militia of Hòa-Hảo Buddhism), took 1948 at Nam-kỳ (Đàng-Trong). History of martial art in this land is hard to say in few words. Regards!

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

Thanks for adding that detail and corrections.

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks for the input.

[@nguyenquanghung2344]

Trịnh-Lê is Đàng Ngoài - Northerner and Nguyễn is Đàng Trong - Southerner. Same country, same culture Nguyễn and Trịnh are Prince - Chúa - 王, Lê is Emperor - Đế - 帝. Why they split up in to 2 regions let me explain, 1st Trịnh Lord was Son-in-law of 1st Nguyễn lord Nguyễn Kim and lord Nguyễn Kim restore Le dynasty by protect Lê emperor, after Lord Nguyễn Kim pass away, Trịnh Kiểm planning to kill Nguyễn lord's son Nguyễn Hoàng, so Nguyễn Hoàng have to flee to southern and chose extend Southern territory for Lê emperor as a reason to fled, he became 1st Nguyễn Lord in the south and Trịnh Kiểm became 1st Trịnh Lord in the north, both of them still Warlords under Lê emperor reign. Sittuation simmilar to Bakufu in Japan, the emperor doesnt have real power, it was Trịnh Lord control Northern Vietnam and Nguyễn Lord control Southern, still 1 Đại Việt - An nam btw.

[@Ibnfunk]

I think you mean different dynasty not different ethnicity.

[@atlatlista]

Great video! Would love to know more about the style those women were practicing, particularly in the second image with the low stance, a bit like la canne's reverse lunge.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

As would I. We generally hear that Vietnamese martial arts are very similar to Chinese, but I would love to see how true that is. Unfortunately, there don’t appear to many people practicing Vietnamese martial arts today. But I would be very happy to hear I’m wrong about that.

[@nguyentrunghoai8028]

in my experience with VN martial arts, it's most likely a cut to the shin/ankle area. Lunge may exist in forms, but still far in between and not much school teach to lunge with a sword.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

@@nguyentrunghoai8028 interesting, are there many schools practicing Vietnamese Sword Arts? Any left in Vietnam?

[@nguyentrunghoai8028]

@@scottm.rodellgrtc2969 there never really was a "sword arts" in VN. "Sword" is a part of "18 weapons" and a part of "martial training", that has always been the norm. Very similar to Chinese TMA in this regard. Sword alone never quite developed enough to have something like kendo or HEMA fencing. So yes and no, you can go to TMA school and learn the sword of the style, but no sword school whatsoever. Hope this help.

[@nguyentrunghoai8028]

@@smrsevenstarstradingco.241 Many surviving TMA styles in Vietnam today have great influence from Chinese, such a thing is to be expected especially when you consider 1.VN geographical location (quite obvious) and 2.In the turbulence of the 18-20 centuries, many Kung Fu practitioners fled China and spread their knowledge. One need a certain amount of VN cultural knowledge to spot the differences. All that being said, I personally would recommend these style, which have the most distinct rhythm and technique 1. Kinh Vạn An. This is derived from imperial guad training, founded by head guard for the royal family in Hue, old capital of Vietnam. Their forms make the most sense. Too bad most of the videos on this site is from tourism show. 2. Sơn Long Quyền Thuật. From what I've known, this style is actually popular. Have interesting history. The technique itself bring a unique Vietnamese understanding of hand to hand combat. 3. Nhất Nam (НЯТ НАМ - recommended keyword). The oldest surviving traditional style in VN right now. The most "Vietnam" martial art yet. Quite popular in Russia and other Eastern Europe countries. Also considered to be the most "complete" with internal training and neigong of their own. The forms of this style also make the least sense if you don't have the bunkai. This playlist right here is the most I can find when it's come to Vietnamese Nhat Nam materials on youtube: kzbin.info/aero/PLC-Mef8lrncfNNqDjYqO4Q9vSxd-RuWFw.

[@JuaneDosesII-wj6dd]

Great show sir! Very informative I’m interested in the specs like the weight, length, blade thickness and steel type , how they were made ect. It appears that the cold steel wakasahi machete would give you the most modern approximation of this sword.

[@johncartwright8154]

Good grief; one of these was hanging on the wall in a pub that was being refurbished that I was installing signage at. I dismissed it as a poor tourist souvenir Wakizashi! I wonder how this ended up in a rural English inn. First time I have viewed a presentation from your channel. Won't be the last! Though I practice Iaido, our Sensei is adapt in Chinese sword arts, and we have a sabre workshop coming up in a couple of weeks. Last time we 'dabbled' in the weapon, our instructor noticed bleeding from my temple. He admonished my hapless partner with "steady on; remember he is an old geezer!" I'd actually stabbed myself, fortunately said sabre was a wooden practice one.

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

You never know where a sword will travel. It could have come back with a tourist years ago? If you're interested in having a look at Chinese Sword Arts, we have active groups in Leeds and down in Essex. I'm over your side of the Pond 3 or 4 times a year for Seminars and other events.

[@Kris_Stiletto]

Awesome Video! :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)

[@mugenGRTC]

Thanks!

[@josuesepulveda6850]

Very cool.

[@davidyoung745]

So interesting to see them borrowing features they liked from the different cultures around them.

[@haveaknifeday]

San-Mai?

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

Sanmai means three plate, referring to the 3 layer construction where the inner layer of high carbon steel forms the edge plate, and the 2 outer layers are formed for laminated steel.

[@K.A.T2906]

Ko biết có ai vừa từ bên đại việt cổ phong qua ko ạ

[@jinan_hwasal]

its the champa blade

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

Explain please…

[@sdhikerdude]

@@smrsevenstarstradingco.241 They're probably referring to the Champa culture: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa

[@MrNedsaabdickerson]

Looks a bit Japanese.

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

These swords are a mix of cultural influences, including Japanese.

[@nguyenquanghung2344]

16-17th century of Vietnamese Guoms have many simmilar to Japanese sword, but have to say many more, war needs in that time is pretty huge since they have a civil conflict of 2 regions Đàng Ngoài and Đàng Trong, so they made from swords to guns, bullets etc and buy alot from foreign countries, from Portuguese, Holland, to Japanese, Javanese, Chinese etc. Japanese pre-made blades was import alot.

[@evanplanas7505]

He is like a positive vibes David Carradine.

[@YamamotoKazuo]

the blade looks more thin

[@joesmith-t2z]

it would be ice if you gave the length, width , thickness and weight of the swords. Interesting tat mention the san mai construction-hard steel on the inside. The Japanese do it the opposite way, hard steel outside with an iron core.

[@mugenGRTC]

Watch all the way through, the dimensions are provided.

[@raphlvlogs271]

these swords look like they have European made sabre blades that were slightly modified

[@smrsevenstarstradingco.241]

They don’t. The blades are forged in the Chinese “qiangang” form where the hardened steel edge is wrapped in a jacket of laminated steel.

[@TheinternetArchaeologist]

That's not classified as a saber It's a single edged short sword It's quite literally verifiably not a saber 😂

[@mugenGRTC]

The commonly accepted definition of a saber is a single edged, curved blade, which this is.

[@TheinternetArchaeologist]

@mugenGRTC You Can appeal to incredulity All you want but just like a wakazashi is a short sword Not a saber What your calling a saber is a short sword The key difference is the length of the blade A saber is meant to be used on horseback Calling every single edge curved sword a saber is How misconceptions get spread You are Objectively and verifiably incorrect In your classification

[@mugenGRTC]

@@TheinternetArchaeologist the vast majority of swordsmen, actual practitioners disagreed with your definition. Not just those practicing today, but throughout history.

[@kettwood7248]

Not good of a sword after all, round grip is one red flag and handle lenght of is another. It is also lacks of yelmen or whatever it called in chinese, so balance will be not great for anything. One can be much more confident in melee with one of that "courtyard" french cutlasses

[@sdhikerdude]

There are plenty of perfectly effective swords that have round grips. Dha/daab are good examples. Also, there are numerous swords without yelman that worked just fine for combat. Since you don't have the court swords in front of you, how can you be confident of their practicality?

[@scottm.rodellgrtc2969]

Having handled it personally, I would have to disagree. In comparison with the literally thousands of antique period swords I've handled, this short saber most certainly has quite a solid feel and can deliver a substantial cut. I'm pleased to have been able to wield it.

[@kettwood7248]

@@sdhikerdude there are at least two swords in vid which referred as courts swords and both look like someone tried to make french cutlass out of some east-Asian sources soooo basically vietnamese military elite in that time throw away their "effective" dha/daab swords and begin to cosplay french common sailors weapon. For a bunch of good reasons, rounded handles is lesser one of them. Second, no yelmen is OK for some swords, it is not ok on swords that are designed to have it, like this one. It's balance seems to be messed up and entire thing feels like a crowbar. well here another guy mentioned "solid feel" already. Crowbars do feels solid, a good sword feels "lively"

[@kettwood7248]

@@scottm.rodellgrtc2969 my 20$ machete can deliver a substantial cut, but it not all that good sword needed. I am pointing on facts: 1) roung grip which is very bad 2) long handle which is bad for a short sword like this 3) lack of yelmen AND pommel means one who made this doest'n care about balance or left cutting part of blade very thick. You just talking about feelings

[@mugenGRTC]

@@kettwood7248 Rodell Laoshi knows more than a little about cutting and swordplay, might want to have a look as some of his cutting videos...