Secrets of the Obscure: Looking Back and Forward Blog Post - GW2 News May 29th 2024

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[@Forty2de]

To me, SotO's biggest accomplishment is that it made me appreciate the other expansions more.

[@Rudbeckbitten]

I played so much EoD after soto release. Didnt pay attention to soto after a few hours.

[@zenith110]

In a good and bad way, I this is kind of what I feared

[@Phrixscreoth]

Calling SotO complex makes sense when you consider what they were TRYING to throw at us, rather than what we got. Because sure, what we got wasn't complex. But as the post pointed out, they reached for complex and couldn't get there. We had: the introduction of the wizards with their goals and purpose, the moral ambiguity of their actions, their scope of involvement in the background, the introduction of the kryptis, their relationship to the wizards, to us, to tyria, to nayos, the intro to nayos, all of the kryptis characters, a civil war within the kryptis, moral ambiguity on the part of our side, and multiple war sequences. On paper, that's a LOT to get through in three maps and a handful of story steps every three months. It was too complex for them to get through, because what we got was significantly simpler than that. And the process of shaving down all that complexity into something simple enough to actually produce is where a lot of our valid criticism of the story is rooted in.

[@HelasHandProductions]

yes i agree, the "complex" was due to the number of characters with their own arcs that they couldn't realize in the end, and the scope of how the wizards interact with the world. but none of that could come about in a yearly expac.

[@AzureRoxe]

The CONCEPT was complex, which means nothing for us who paid the expansion because we didn't pay for a concept. What we actually got was a disaster because ANet has apparently not learned to tone down their ideas to where they can actually handle them.

[@HelasHandProductions]

@@AzureRoxe i don't think it was that big a disaster

[@sasha9796]

@@HelasHandProductions it was a disaster and the fact that anet's pr post had to admit it out loud is the best evidence you could ask for. I wish to hope they learned from their mistakes, but they also want to buff virtuoso in the next balance patch, so my expectations aren't very high.

[@funtagekill1e]

@@AzureRoxe what you got wasnt a disaster is was between average and good imo just like muk said, what they said is that they had to big of a ambition to fully realise in such a short time which resulted in shaving off stuff which is a logical decision, they said it was a dissapointment to shave so much off and a dissapointment is not a disaster, if you want a disaster look at halo infinites launch, cyberpunk launch, fallout 76 launch those are disasters

[@pega7550]

I was way more scared of Cerus than I ever was of Eparch, Cerus's first appearance was so good, while Eparchs was a dialogue and nothing more.

[@Tevesh42]

Yea in retrospect everything Cerus was done so well, he should have been the end boss. Also would fit with the legendary mode strike being the hardest encounter so far.

[@XTAKU.]

I think the idea of the Kryptis and Nayos was cool but in execution it was done very poorly, we do not really get a sense that Nayos is truly another world, it has fauna and terrain very similar to what could be found in Tyria, not to mention, the Nayos map is in Tyria as well. You'd think with a title like "Nayos, the Realm of Dreams" we would have gotten a more interesting landscape. There's also many times we are told certain things without being shown it. Storytelling in a medium like a video game should be more expressive with visuals rather than dialogue that does not visually correlate to much. The Kryptis themselves were far more intriguing when they were depicted as monsters who invade your mind and turn you against your allies. The overly used trope in fiction where the story goes out of its way to humanize the villains was a disservice here because the Kryptis are not human, and shouldn't be tied to human morality, and in the writers' attempt to humanize them they became so underwhelming as antagonists. I think revealing the motivations of villains later on in the story is good because it helps you to understand them and empathize with them in a sense, but the supposed main villain of SotO, Eparch, was criminally underdeveloped and his motivation for his actions was very one dimensional and underwhelming, which is very unusual for an antagonist in the guild wars franchise, who are typically complex.

[@elocfreidon]

Arenanet has proven they aren't good at following through on creepiness. Icebrood Saga proved that. Nayos being on the Tyrian map is a mechanical choice. It actually isn't in Tyria. When it was released, it revealed itself to be Gyala Delve 2.0.

[@artsveiman7776]

by making yearly expansions they are also ensuring constant money flow. While most of us are perfectly happy with a no-subscription model, we will definitely shell mouney to buy a new expansion every year.

[@penumbrareactor8500]

Not after Soto I won't xD

[@bladerunner2006]

yeah, but that being said, it's incredibly sad to me that this means GW2's guaranteed revenue stream (without microtransactions) is just 30 bucks per year per player compare that to wow, they beat that in 2 months of subscription breaks my heart, especially because to me GW2 is the far superior game

[@artsveiman7776]

@@bladerunner2006 and yet WOW is an outdated game that really gives nothing to players. they are paying $180, the equivalent of at least 3 AAA games.... for what????

[@HelasHandProductions]

I agree with you basically completely. I loved the beginning of Soto, Nayos was grey and boring. Features were good, overall it was a fine expac and I can hope they do a much better job with the next one.

[@jukeb0ks415]

I think you nailed it Muk. SotO was solid enough at launch, and then the Nayos stuff really fell off. Though I did actually like the design of Nayos personally. But unfortunately nothing in it was very fun. I think making Skyscales mandatory was the biggest mistake of the expac though. Skyscales were a fun, useful traversal tool, and then SotO made them an unnecessarily huge focus.

[@borriswindeburgen7161]

I feel like the tidbits of lore we got about Nayos - how it was designed based on what they saw from dreams, and when they dreamed they could see Tyria through a haze - was a nice little wave of the hand to help me stay immersed and engaged while still understanding that it was a neat excuse for asset reuse. To extrapolate from that that the Kryptis designed their forms off of the powerful forms they saw in their dreams comes pretty naturally from there as well. Aesthetic wise I was fine with it, but that last meta when we're inside just... you're right Arina, I can't see in front of me. There's a limit to how much I'll excuse for aesthetic. I really wish we had more time to explore the characters they introduced - For Nayos, I wanted to see the parallels explored between us as the player character and General Nephus - the war hero one you recruit and work with to capture the queen. We're both renowned and well respected war heroes of our own realms, and they play it up and I think "oh they're going to address the parallels to help us care about him and understand the Kryptis more", but it got glossed over. Ramses was... I guess cute? And very loyal to Peitha? He was a pessimist but did what he could anyways? Again, I just wish I had more time with him. Arina as well. I wish she could have been more than "badass norn woman with a cool sword and managed to survive out here for months on her own". Maybe a mission where the focus was just on the two of us and helping us care for her more. Again, all just "more time". Peitha was fine though. I really liked her. Kind of shocked that people thought she'd betray us though. I think they're right about the yearly approach going forward - they need to narrow down the scope a bit, and focus in on more of what they can give. I'd much rather have a smaller cast that I can really sink my teeth into than a large amount of characters that I can barely spend any time with.

[@zenith110]

SotO was the first expansion I never participated in throughout its entirety. I am very glad to see the new weapons - and of course the land spear news was exciting. But it's not enough. Elite specs would have been nice - but as someone who does homebrew D&D content on the side, I know how annoying it can be to balance a bunch of stuff... But the fact the story was milquetoast was what I feared. Season 4 had the best story if you ask me, and it wasn't even an "expansion". Although, EoD did a better job of showing instead of telling, so the act of storytelling in EoD was the best for me. Ultimately, it feels like they don't have enough time to do what they want to do - since I know simply adding more people to the team will not fix anything after a certain point. I don't know what it's like to run an MMO, but my experience as a DM has taught me it can be a lot of work to juggle a lot of plates. Maybe the news of this new expansion will bring me back, but I was so disappointed with "the tunnel" I just couldn't be bothered with GW2 after that release. I loved the game, and the world it nurtured, but the one thing that they did address here that gives me some hope is that they realized they can stop reinventing the wheel and they can finally just update or focus on expanding the systems we already have. No more chasing butterflies until it's necessary.

[@dorianlovell5479]

In my mind, when they say complex, they are saying they planned a bigger more complex story. But now confirm they bit off more than they could do and had to crunch it for the annual cycle. 16 new major characters at least could not be covered in the story time available, its too complex to weave them together well in this format.

[@bazs7722]

I'm happy for Arenanet for "learning a lot". The game is out for 10+ years and still mismanaging the scope of what they can do is kinda hilarious at this point.

[@Paelmoon]

And despite all that, it's lasted, been profitable, and seen many other mmos come and go.

[@AzureRoxe]

@@Paelmoon It's lasted cause NCSoft stopped ANet from killing it to do other projects, you guys always forget that part.

[@bazs7722]

@@Paelmoon Looking forward to see how long it will last, before the current manegement learns how to plan ahead. They finally managed to deliver on their roadmap promises consistently, so lets hope the next expansion, they going to have enough foresight to know what can they realize in a small expansion.

[@bladerunner2006]

Yeah, I love this game, but we have really been hearing the same tired excuses for years now. It's disappointing that part of the community copes so hard and eats this stuff up. The "new content delivery model" is just the next new convenient excuse. I don't see much changing. Get ready for exp 5 to start strong, only to then fall off a cliff. Like almost all exps before it.

[@GunnGuardian]

If they announce that all underwater weapons are coming on land, I can't wait to watch the elementalists get excited about Trident finally being a new long ranged weapon, only to find out it's a melee weapon for some reason.

[@Alphenis]

Your rant was highly entertaining.

[@mebrandonb]

Regarding your comment on the characters that didn't get fleshed out due to the complexity of the story scope, I think it's always interesting to see the differences in what you focused on vs what I did! When I read this note, I was like "Oh they are referring to Galrath, Arina, Uenno etc" vs you were entirely focused on the Kryptis charcters. It's so cool to me to think about what different people take away from stories in this way. Experts from the wiki that highlight why these characters had (have?) so much potential: Galrath the Undying is an undead human warrior that used to be part of the old Lionguard or the White Mantle, and used to seek the Wizard's Tower in Kryta to learn its Arcane Magics when it used to be located at Kessex Hills. After being slain in battle, he was resurrected and joined the Astral Ward. In 1336 AE, Arina got lost in the demonic realm of Nayos after being pulled there by a Kryptis Rift while she was leading a mission to contain the Kryptis in Gendarran Fields. She was also instructed to avoid any interaction with the Pact Commander, who was reported to become likely involved in the mission, while also handling them with the utmost respect if necessary. Uenno, the Historian of the Ward, is a high-ranking asuran member of the Astral Ward. She was the one who introduced Zojja to the Ward after they met in Kryta. SO much to build off of all three of these, and these are just those characters. I always assumed the Kryptis stories would be short and dealt with within the patch, but hopefully these other characters will see more development as members of the Astral Ward going forward.

[@TheScrootch]

Yeah, I think the story was pretty lackluster. Too many characters and none of them really got fleshed out. It's especially weird how Zojja just ascended between releases and she was just kinda pushed aside as soon as we entered Nayos

[@TheScrootch]

And I have no clue where the department that makes the animations and rigs went, but I doubt they were at work

[@ariusraygn]

I wish Mabon survived, what a fascinating character and most of his lore is diary entries or notes

[@jonasgustafsson9807]

I think they tried to infer that the demons we usually see invading are feeding on bad emotions and thats why they torture and hurt people and they could in theory feed on passive emotions from dreams and thats what most of the weaker kryptis do but they just missed the mark on explaining it. They also really missed out on telling us WHY peitha is doing the things she does and why is she different and believes the things she does. To mee it felt like a betrayal would be too obvious and thats why her being genuine was a better story but they didnt go any deeper into the character so it fell flat.

[@AzureRoxe]

If we need to INFER that because of how badly ANet's storytelling is, you know they fucked up.

[@NewNecro]

IMO the idea of her betraying us being a good narrative hinged entirely on Kryptis being naturally inclined to do what we perceive as evil. To do that you have to maintain the plausibility of Peitha being duplicitous, since if she betrays us that 'evil' can be attributed to her demonic nature (insatiable hunger, ambition of power, vengeance etc.) The second Inner Nayos update showing us empathetic demons which up until now we've seen as despotic, remorseless and impulsive defeats the intrigue behind the idea that Peitha could betray us by explicitly showing the existence of "good demons". Then, if a betrayal follows, it raises more far more questions for why Peitha would need to betray us in the first place when demons were shown to be capable of selflessness. I do suspect when making the xpac they really meant for her to betray us but tons of effort went into adjusting and downsizing their overly ambitious story narrative (and maybe lore too) in the making of the quarterly updates. I was very much intrigued by the lore of a society outside the world of Tyria but I was a bit disappointed that facultatively cannibalistic outworldly flesh horror entities are just as capable of empathy as the Tyrian races. Maybe even more than certain "morally ambiguous" Wizards of the Astral Ward.

[@SilvasRuin]

They explain Peitha's personality in a lore book off in some random-ass corner of the map. An explanation is provided, but in a way that most players are probably never going to encounter it.

[@_XR40_]

What worries me about the new system is where it leads and who, exactly, is doing what. Maybe I didn't express that clearly, but the fact is that the "parent" company has been working on and promoting other projects for the past several years, while leaving GW2 pretty much on the back-burner. However, virtually all of those other projects have failed, while GW2 has consistently performed well (mostly due to the loyalty of the player-base). In result, that company has now shifted it's attention to GW2 - But are they also shifting personnel? Are the people who failed in the company's other projects being "migrated" to GW2? (Executives don't get fired, they get transferred and shifted around) *TLDR:* Is the future of Guild Wars falling into the hands of those who failed _outside_ of Guild Wars?

[@hHahansbuz]

this theory should have its own conspirative expansion 😮

[@embreis2257]

ArenaNet is a subsidiary of NCSoft but there is little evidence of Korean devs or Korean execs meddling in the day-to-day affairs of ANet other than occasionally demanding to axe many tens of employees when they are tight on money and need to reduce costs.

[@La.máquina.de.los.sueños]

Odd thing is that maybe we'll never hear again about the wizards and the kryptis... except for anecdotal rifts on other maps... a bit like Scarlet/Awaken invasions that everyone ignore by now.

[@TiltRepairMan]

I think if you replaced the Kryptis with another faction it would actually make more sense in explaining their choices to be good and evil. The story lost me when a hideous looking demon beast comes up to me and is like "Yo, I'm Peitha Mommy and demond are actually normal people trapped in the most hideous, evil, twisted bodies ever seen in Tyria. But we're mostly good hee hee".

[@velDANTe]

its because liberal writers like to self-insert.

[@penumbrareactor8500]

Agreed. The moonwalk was over the top too.

[@hanabal898]

Yup it left a sour taste that the demons actually turned out to be good. Like cmon they're frickin demons they are supposed to be silver tounged deceptive liars.

[@Rongez]

@@velDANTe lol that got a laugh from me

[@pierrebuthaud7640]

Tbh I think I had a way bigger issue with the maps than the story. Sure it was extremely weak and lacking at points but I knew I was going to play it once and only once. The maps, the things that are supposed to make me comeback to this extention on the other hand felt extremely forgetable for me. By that I mean there was no "place" that I was going to remember in 3 extentions or so. Like I will forever remember vividly Tarir, the end of dragon stand, the city in the sky in the desolation or the gigantic tower in the middle of dragon's end. Soto for me had none of that, the first map was basicly things we already saw multiple times but in more generic, the wizard tower is cool to look at but the fact that it's just one big thing means there are no special places, and amnytas/inner Nayos are the same everywhere you look except maybe the colosseum which is like 10m wide.

[@velkix.8283]

That's how they reused models. They lack innovation in enemy, story and map design. They spent most of the time coming up with the mechanics of the new fractal and the last meta, but they should keep players refreshed. Many players will be disappointed if the issue happens again in the next expansion.

[@WordsOfTheTeacher]

21:20 well, gotta be the guy here who says new lands is BY FARRRRRRRRRRR the most exciting thing. I want new maps and lore more than anything at all!

[@Jaszunai]

Some thoughts on the story. I felt like the story was leading up to Peitha's betrayal, but I knew it wouldn't happen in the last update, because we just did not have enough time. Eparch's goal was never really explained. We know that he was super upset about not being allowed into the Wizard's Tower and wanted revenge, and that he had hunger issues where it seemed he couldn't control himself from eating even his own people. However, he seemed to believe his plan was helping his people, even though they were being eaten by him, or killed by wizards. The queen and general also seemed to believe in Eparch, which was strange. They really needed to explain what his master plan was exactly. I assume we will return to this storyline at some point to see how things are going. We know that prior to Eparch, the Kryptis had a more peaceful civilization, and they seemed to eat the dreams of people from other dimensions, which is how most of them knew about Tyria. Since we see them eating regular food, or like fruits and stuff, I don't know if eating dreams and emotions was just for fun. Plus it seems like Kryptis like Eparch and Peitha could consume other Kryptis to power up by eating their souls and magic. There was also the whole possession thing, which was never touched up on after the first update. Kryptis culture and way of life really were not properly explained.

[@stawkey9186]

Probably most of us would prefer to yo wait 2/3 years for a new expac and pay $40/50 for it

[@Rudbeckbitten]

New world came with their little expansion for 28 bucks and it killed the game even more 😅

[@bladerunner2006]

@@Rudbeckbitten New World is garbage though

[@Rudbeckbitten]

@@bladerunner2006 as I said

[@HarleyMaebry]

The original saying was "The customer is always right in terms of taste." That meant the customer knows what they want, and it's the entrepreneur's task to provide that. A customer that was wrong definitely shortened that to, "The customer is always right," and that has never been true since.

[@ElderNewt]

A complete UI update would be amazing after all these years

[@manmataya]

The only thing that would get me as exited as a new elite spec or water weapons on land is anet finally killing Braham

[@halsti99]

people seem to forget that it was a one time purchase for small money. when i played shadowlands in WoW, i had to buy the expansion for 40-50 bucks, then pay 15 bucks a month AND have skins sold to me, all just so i can do choreghast. it wasnt a good expansion imo. it had its neat features, i really liked some transmog rewards for achievements for example, but a lot of it infuriated me. especially the "fill the green bar" main quests, and every new "gameplay" mechanic being yee ol' *Press Button To Hold Up And Channel Heart Of The Obscure*. ... But it was like 25 bucks, one time purchase, no monthly fee. its a fair price.

[@Jaszunai]

When the story got to Nayos, I felt they dropped the ball. My understanding was that we were outside of Eparch's control, on the edge of Nayos. When we fought against Heitor, I figured we were assaulting a border fortress, so to suddenly go from there to fighting the queen and the giant dragon felt strange. I wanted a story chapter, or a whole map, that was just us working our way through Nayos with our army until we got to the capital city.

[@ReaverEternal]

"Left some character interactions feeling rushed" is a charitable way of saying "Absolute garbage dialogue between nobody we care about" If they want to do three maps per year, why front load two? Just do one for each release bit. Then we can have story bits in each and not have to double up, give that sense of progression. Nayos traversal sucked, making Skyscale mandatory was a terrible idea and I will die on that hill. Genie's out of the bottle now though. Also, drop generic mook health by 30%. Chunky mobs isn't fun, it's just annoying.

[@71775926]

Shipping just one map for a paid expansion with the promise of another 2-3 more, each coming out after a quarter of a year is gonna be reeeeeeeeal popular with consumers I forsee.

[@duncanrobertson6472]

There are very good reasons to frontload content in an expansion. People were already frustrated with the low amount of release content in SOTO and you think the answer is to give them less? Edit: to be a little more specific, an expansion launch is a big moment to reconnect and get excited about the game, especially for people who play on and off. It's gunna be hard to create much excitement if you're pulling your punches so much on the opening release. That's the whole reason living world didn't work and they committed to expansions in the first place.

[@bladerunner2006]

Yeah, I'm really no lore nut, but even I usually listen to the base dialogue. And then when that's good I start exploring NPC dialogue and ingame books / notes. But at the end of the SotO storyline I just wanted to get it over with. Skipped as much as possible. The story is just so incredibly predictable and uninspired. At the same time it didn't even really deliver on the demon fantasy (save for the Cerus part at the start).

[@ReaverEternal]

That's a fair point. I hope they go to four maps, then, so we can have one extra for each release after the first.I figured that even though it would rightly annoy people, it'll give the second and third maps more development time and hopefully less rushed "fill the bar" garbage, and better content overall. I was more thinking of how Nayos got so stale, repetitive, and extremely annoying after spending a year there since that's the most recent thing in my head from SOTO, and that I would have preferred less at the start if it meant less Kryptis world content overall.

[@71775926]

@@ReaverEternal more well developed maps and well developed story content that involves less "fill the bar" activities are not the same nor mutually inclusive. It is entirely possible to get 4 maps on expansion release with great exploration and meta content, and still progressively get more good, meaningful story content with each subsequent quarterly update taking place in these maps without requiring new maps at all. It's incredibly rigid thinking that new quarterly story content HAS TO take place in a new environment. I picked up Genshin Impact after ANet completely wrecked their lore with their shit Icebrood Saga ending and saw how Genshin could consistently deliver great story content every 6 weeks without always having to deliver new environments.

[@SilvasRuin]

There are examples of the kryptis having pretty different culture and thought processes from the other sapient races we're used to, but most of them were presented in events, sidequests, and ambient dialog. Someone who isn't digging into the small details isn't going to notice. But that's probably because ANet didn't give themselves enough time to work those moments into the core story. I'm not saying the story needed to be longer... although perhaps a separate Nayos expansion would have been a good idea, but the writing team should have spent more time figuring out how to present details. I mean, kryptis architecture is canonically inspired by Tyrian dreams and one of the kryptis that predated Eparch but is no longer around is described as "resplendent" and colorful. They could have done so much more with Nayos by showing some vestiges of how the kryptis used to be, and showing more evidence of the influence of Tyrian dreams. "What was the point of any of this?" Kryptis eat emotions, and they were led for millennia by a violent crazy-pants person. That's going to bias what emotions they prioritize. Pain and fear are easy to induce without having to look for someone more interesting. Additionally kryptis normally feed from dreams that somewhat manifest themselves in Nayos, which is why it's called the realm of dreams, but Eparch decided he was going to hoard all the dreams for himself, starving them and making them more inclined to induce negative experiences to eat ASAP. Exactly when Eparch started hoarding the dreams is never specified and further complicated by at least some of the kryptis having seen dreams about The Commander. That implies Eparch started hoarding the dreams within the last few years. Anyways, the story does in fact explain why the kryptis are so violent (it's basically all the doing of Eparch), why they have the potential to change, and even Ramses questions if they actually can change at this point. They don't put on a powerpoint presentation to explain all of this in grade school terms, but these explanations are there in the core story steps. You could accuse the story of being uninteresting and losing your attention, sure, that's fair and I feel similarly, but accusing a major facet of the story of being a non sequitur or plot hole is disingenuous. If you stopped paying attention to the story, don't start trying to name plot holes. You will have missed details. You were careful to stay accurate and fair for the rest of your criticism.

[@billybones3544]

This is how I described Soto to my younger brother who has only played up through HoT. "Its about a secret society of wizards who have been protecting Tyria for hundreds of years from a seemingly un-ending horde of literal demons from the demon realm....and its boring." He didn't really believe me until I showed him Nayos.

[@Muragano]

The full quote from Harry Selfridge is "The customer is always right, in matters of taste." So whoever cut out the last part is a customer that was wrong. :D

[@onlyXknives]

The Best actual thing that came from SOTO was literally the Wiz Vault and that's it., but it was worth buying for that alone because of the reward you get from it.

[@bladerunner2006]

Do you not have access to the WV without buying the expansion? That would be so unfair lmao.

[@onlyXknives]

@@bladerunner2006 pretty sure you have access to it but you cant get certain items from it if you don't have SOTO

[@Connie_cpu]

13:00 the way I interpreted it, the Kryptis only agreed to stop feasting on Tyrians. Didn't say anything about creatures from the other planes accessible via the mists.

[@eranoszrill8907]

i really hope we get some UI changes and options i think i would absolutely LOVE playing heal specter but with how small and out of the way the party UI is i just can't it's so uncomfortable

[@truecross4090]

Idk i could Jump into SOTO without doing the other stories and not be lost. Thanks Mukluk. I might have to do that. The sooner I can work on that dragon the better.

[@danielcrotty8141]

HOw about the tool tip completely covering the middle of the screen in fights !

[@reddfranzen9072]

I agree with @Phrixscreoth comment, that it was complex and they basically had to shorten it, which gave us. THIS. I do hope that @MuklukKZbin reads his comment, but otherwise, if this is how short these stories are gonna be, i dont want to pay 25 dollars for that, thats way too much, end of dragons is $30 and had a lot more to give.

[@INDAREVISH]

Muk you could take a step forward and ask if they’d be interested in having you host a launch stream like what wooden potatoes did for PoF for this fifth one.

[@SNAFUq]

It will be interesting to see if they some of those open plot threads and characters get some development in later expansions.

[@Dan-sc2pi]

I thought the kryptis were eating people/emotions due to Eparch's demand, not their own... I thought they just need absorb emotions to survive (and they don't have to be negative), but literally eating others was to gain more power and satisfaction.

[@GeminiKLY]

They should put the buff bar up in the top left corner/let us move it freely. Boons should stay by the skill bar but anything we don’t need to have a constant eye on can be positioned elsewhere.

[@bobiboulon]

7:34 Complex plot: Kingdom A has a Bad King who is bad with his people. Noble from Kindom A wants to instigate a rebelion against Bad King and take his place. To do so, Noble woman asks Average King from Kingdom B, which is ennemi to Kingdom A, for help. Her trade: "Hey, Average King, you don't like Bad King, right? Neither do I, and if you help me overthrow him, I promess we'll stop invading your kingdom." WHAT A COMPLEX PLOT! What a Shakespeare's level of an intrigue!!!11!1

[@ozirus3344]

Release 1 was amazing. Being stalked by Ceros was amazing. Grey morals and ethical questions of an ancient Seer had potential. I still have no idea how defeating the Watcher Amnytas Meta is NOT defeating Eparch. That thing was trying to eat the world or tower or whatever was it not?!?! What even is it and why was it there?!?!?

[@Diehard205]

I love we keep getting "the last mursatt" every so often, like you can't have 3+ lasts, make 1 last or tell us there are a few left lol

[@ZeffiesMC]

the solution to kryptis needing to eat Tyrian's emotions is in the plot of Monster's Inc. they just need to learn to store the emotions in batteries like in that movie. introduce them to jade tech and their issue is over

[@dvergrmort6334]

Wise words about the SoTO content. Agree.

[@_XR40_]

Well, I know that _I've_ certainly been waiting for art deco armor for at least 5 years....

[@MrVivi0001]

Lets be honest the last "expansion" was the worst piece of content they ever sold. And i personally will never give them my money on release again. And i am the guy that brought preordered collectors / deluxe every time.

[@Sw3d15h_F1s4]

as someone getting into gw2 now, it's a little sad that they are getting rid of living world style, the whole concept of "log in during the release and you can get it" was really cool and unique imo. if this is going to turn into yearly purchases, idk how much longer i'd play the game; I've already spent a lot getting HoT, PoF, and living world season 2-5.

[@embreis2257]

$25/year is not that much for so many hours of gameplay, is it? most of us probably think what the devs present to us is worth $2.08 a month.

[@Freyas01]

As someone who's spent a lot of time playing other MMO's, it's crazy to me how little GW2 costs. WoW is $12-15/month, along with $60 expansions, and has had yearlong content droughts in the past. FFXIV likewise also charges a monthly sub as well as full-price expansions, and ESO has an optional sub fee, but it's really punishing without it. They also have yearly paid expansions, which consist of a single map and some story and some feature updates, and some other DLC story/map/dungeon content similar to the Inner Nayos updates from SoTO which you get for free with the sub or can buy separately, but don't get for free with the expansion purchase. BDO has a semi-optional monthly fee with major restrictions for not buying it, as well as a predatory pay-to-win microtransaction model.

[@BackwardsCombatable]

This was so predictable. You can look at any game ever that went from big DLC to small bite sized updates and it always leads to less satisfying content. I would rather have a drought where nothing new is added than keep getting mediocre to bad content every few months.

[@TiroDvD]

I remember someone else saying that "writing for video games is the opposite of writing novels/stories". I suspect the writing team has all this stuff, but it just cannot be translated/conveyed in a video game format; not without some Elder Scrolls style in game books.

[@critical-thinker666]

it doesnt help that final map was released over 9 months which very little changes/things to do.. final part is just meta which is blocked behind 2 previews metas and thats it. theres nothing else to do on that part of the map. there are 3 metas on this map ... one is golem, second is reskinned wyvern and last is idle animation scorpion in spider lair for some reason. if this is their example of whats to come than im gona wait for full release of next exp,they had 13 years to learn how to make the game. we still getting same 4 types of events which are abandoned within week.

[@roberts.2300]

Honestly I felt the disappointment way before with Gyala Delve. When we got that I felt that the quality of what they were doing was going to take a dive. Sure enough that is exactly what happened in SOTO. I still believe that the team that is working on these "expansion(s)" is not very big at all. Arena Net just does not want too loose too much of it's player base, as they develop their next thing.

[@nathanpadberg7084]

My 'hot take' of what SotO should have been in order to achieve the depth & complexity they tout. First, Peitha should have only been a voice in the Commander's head for ALL of the initial chapters. Maybe have Arina or somebody else show up to be what helps the Commander in the final fight. Actually, thinking about it, yes, have it be Arina. That way, in the denouement have her argue Peitha's case to Isgarren & the Commander, and warn that Eparch has gotten agents through while everything is going on in the Tower. The next three chapters should be tracking down & taking out the Kryptis on Tyria, maybe have one each in Ascalon, Kryta, and Maguma to take advantage of continuing political instabilities there. OR, open each Chapter with a big Kryptis assault, resulting in a new agent attempting to insinuate themselves & the Commander having to try & run interference. This would also be a chance to SHOW the moral ambiguity of the Wizard's tower by having them only be interested in the Kryptis attacks, not cleaning up the fallout, or something similar. Have the climax of the final chapter conclude with Peitha finally physically showing up with her plan to take the fight to Eparch, THAT becomes the next expansion & ALL of that manages to focus on Nayos. Obviously, I'm not a dev, I'm sure there were other considerations which might have made this plot unfeasible.

[@Destructivepurpose]

I really dislike how so much of Soto revolves around the skyscale. I miss the feeling of exploring maps - seeing a location or a vista and thinking "wow, I wonder how I get to that?" The skyscale is like the ultimate swiss army knife of mobility, and I kinda wish they'd just stuck to the land mounts and maybe the griffon.

[@vanrottn2356]

Skywatch Archipelago or as I like to call it: What if we took Verdant Brink, removed nearly everything including 98% of the monster density and gave everyone skyscales?

[@arclight4668]

lance's while mounted would be cool

[@206Zelda]

That would definitely intrigue me and spice up combat. If there was any mounted combat, let it be Warclaw.

[@elocfreidon]

A lot of the expansion was written horribly as soon as it stopped being about the wizards. Something I noticed with GW2's player base is how people are not seeing the context clues that are important and over emphasizing things that aren't important or aren't there. It seems that people were complaining so hard about "fill the bar to progress" and instanced meetings so much, they forgot to pay attention to what was happening in the story. Spoilers: They built up the story with multiple discussions with characters about how the villain was supposedly powerful with a massive army, yet wasn't acting in full force. That it was suicide to assault the castle since a powerful enemy force was detected there. However, when we entered the "empty room" only to find that it wasn't occupied with enemy forces, but a factory line of containers with their essence, that was an epic moment. He was killing his own kind to feed himself their power. We also discovered that they don't eat people, but emotions and dreams. The kryptis were entering and assaulting Tyria, because Eparch acting on his revenge. At this point I can blame the audience, too. Writing has declined in GW2 since LW4 ended. I think that's because of how the vocal audience was misinterpreting what was happening about a lot of what was going on. Which leads to dumber writing to suit the audience over the years. We're feeling that with how bad Gyala Delve and second half SotO was written and presented. All the budget went to launch and cosmetics and none was left for the updates.

[@bladerunner2006]

Yeah, the problem wasn't even necessarily "fill the bar". It was that the open world content was simultaneously bad. So they effectively forced us to do boring content.

[@CarlosHernandez-kn8sl]

But criticism it suposed to manifest the disconform, if you are talking about a minimum amount of people or a sector who is disconform, it would be absurd to listen to them, if it was the whole community is because they didn't do a great job, and they need to change, (I wasn't playing the game at that time so I am not against you on the matter), I quit WoW Because of the jailer and started to play GW2, imagine my shock when they introduce this expansion and EPARCH, "What in the utter f*ck!!!"

[@elocfreidon]

@@CarlosHernandez-kn8sl Now you're making me compare Eparch to Joko and the difference in the quality of content (minus Domain of Kourna's map) is night and day. Season 4 just set the bar too high for what Arenanet seems to be doing now.

[@Patsoor]

I still dislike the fact that they call you wayfinder and not commander anymore

[@bladerunner2006]

Yeah, that was stupid and unnecessary. Also the whole "secret society" thing was just not a good justification for why we wouldn't just call in airships etc. They would rather face complete extinction than reveal who they are? They can't protect anyone if they're dead. Just the hallmark of a bad story, plot holes everywhere.

[@onlyXknives]

so the main issues with the xpac weren't even really discussed tbh, there's 3 games modes, only 1 got attention specifically that was a part of the xpac as advertised, and we all know that was PVE. PVP/WVW only actually got weaponmaster training/new weapons, but does that even count cuz pve got them too... and Wiz Vault PVP/WVW dailies I dont count either cuz PVE got those too. I was expecting more reflection, and more on mistakes they made or mention going forward they want pvp/wvw to actually be a part of the xpac, and not just a thing they update once or twice in that yearly cycle that doesn't actually have a connection with the xpac but more so something they just had time for during that time.

[@206Zelda]

Considering my reception of SoTO, I'm sad to say I'm not optimistic for the future expansions. Second half of Iceborne was the start of my disappointment, EoD was the first concrete expansion that wasted potential and plot for the sake of time-saving, SoTO was a fever dream that focused on 'emotions' and took whatever individuality your character had and tossed it out the window, and I really want to be intrigued. I really do. But I'm not. I'm just the gamer who has nothing to contribute to the plot, only watching as my grizzled charr become stuttering, head-bobbing bumbling saps. 🤣 Not agreeable, I know, but I hope it's a respectable opinion to you. (I'm still salty how they mocked survivor's PTSD at the end of EoD)

[@obsidianchilly]

The story was the biggest problem It just didn't hook emotionally and felt like it came out of nowhere which kept it... Feeling a bit meaningless.

[@Phrixscreoth]

Which is kinda funny that it didn't hook emotionally, given the Kryptis are drawn to and eat emotion

[@peterjohnson367]

As much as we'd all like new elite specs, I think it's safe to say that Anet has enough trouble balancing the 27 elite specs currently in game. cVirt is still too dominant in any encounter that doesn't blatantly favour power dps specs and many other issues. I don't trust them right now to actually come up with more elite specs that aren't busted messes.

[@ozirus3344]

SOTO could have been Kodan instead of demons. Or a Tengu kingdom. But we needed to go to space to see our stratosphere wizards.

[@tynrova9639]

I hope we get a new mount or something along those lines too.

[@Moonshainu]

Easy to implement feature: All armor types available for transmog regardless of class....

[@kennethmalafy8012]

Wasn't impressed with SoTO, was a miss. Usually buy the best edition of the ex pac on first day, will take a hard look at this next one before purchase- not sure of this "new direction." Also, reading Anets posts it doesn't seem like they understand how they missed with this, so not expecting imporvement.

[@Golladan]

Apparently they think using the same map for 2 content updates is better than using it for 3 =/

[@PetrSzturc]

Instead of doing expansion and then leave it behind, they could release short stories, missions etc for different regions. Like every 3 months visit different region as there is some crisis or something. ie Hey cantha has issues - release just kaineng city with its meta and story Hey wizards are here - release skywatch archipelago. So you can progress stories on different fronts and make more maps relevant. Plus you wont end up with rushed soto end.

[@MadTawnyOwlet]

Ngl I took a break from GW2 and haven't really played any of Soto 😅... (and now the next 'expansion' is on the horizon😱) Been getting that itch to dive back in, and although I will try to reserve judgement, it sounds like Soto is a little disappointing :/ at least I can work towards some open world pve legendary armour tho. 🤞

[@rssiya2601]

Inner nayos vs champions?

[@Liisjak]

I barely touched SoTo...now I've got to grind masteries to unlock the trash material vendor xD

[@Jaszunai]

I thought the beginning was very good. Archipelago seemed kind of meh, but grew on me as I explored it doing achievement. Amnytas was fun, but it was a pain to get around before unlocking the masteries. Nayos was my least favourite. For the story segments, I felt like the final update was just way too short. The whole story felt like a summary, and the final update seemed like it skipped a chapter or two. Having to feel the green bars was annoying, and honestly, they really struggled from not having a proper quest system. Since there were so few story chapters, and the segments were so short, they really should have done a better job of incorporating meta events and achievements into the story itself. Maybe have the lair of the spider meta be a requirement before the fight with Eparch, to explain how we got into the place.

[@mismismism]

I have to be that guy, they always make the same excuses. You can't say "We're taking feedback and learning" when all of these issues were already things they got dragged for before. The scope issue was a thing in EoD, they rushed Soo-Won and the Void so much it was unsatisfying and then did it again. The Wizards Vault bugs were all old content that has been reported hundreds of times for years. Stuff like the awful visual clarity of mechanics in the new map, that has been a complaint for as long as I've played the game, people can't see anything with all the ground effects, or bosses like the multiple ice dragons having attacks that blend into the floor and then they chose to make the entire Inner Nayos gray and maroon, with mechanics like fountains that are the same color as the background, all the boss attacks and adds are the same color palette. Lag in metas has also been an issue forever and what do they do? Make everyone do metas with an army of Skyscales making the lag and visual clarity even worse. Damage sponge bosses, not new. Relics introduced with no descriptions and bugs everywhere, should not need feedback. That's my frustration with SotO and why I'm so harsh because they can't claim they didn't know when all of this were already issues before and they did it again. There are so many more things I could list and almost none of it is new so they cannot claim ignorance. It feels like empty promises now.

[@nashiihsanshaf]

Maybe they make soto's meta is meh because people complained eod final meta is too difficult.

[@CyprienCole]

Despite its promising start quickly deflated due to boring plot, boring Nayos location, and final act meta battle which should been added within previous update (even if had to be delay). I will say the value of the expansion was good for all the added content.

[@AzureRoxe]

"More isn't always better" They truly are severely out of touch and under a massive delusion if they think SOTO could, in any sense of the word, be considered "more". If anything, it was FAR LESS and they STILL heavily screwed up.

[@al3x3691]

I think the point they were trying to make is that they added a lot of characters because they wanted to tell a bigger story, but halfway through they realized that their initial scope was too big. And since it would be even more work to go back and remove characters from the story, we wind up with a bunch of characters who feel pointless because there was not enough development time for them to have their moment in the spotlight. Hopefully their takeaway is that the next expac should add 3-5 new characters at most, and be written with that size cast in mind.

[@MADMAXX-7]

Let's be charitable and assume the "too complex" part is the story that didn't make it into the game. I.e. the plan was to big and complex, therefore the resulting story we actually got became some rather vanilla "overthrow some evil king" thing. Loved the first season but after that... meh.

[@hardy83]

It's clear the complex was the entire Kryptis plot. It seems obvious they wanted it to be this big massive war against two factions but technical and time constraints had it come off like it was a faction of like 5 people vs 5 people. The 3rd update plot had us discuss how hard it'll be to break through Eparch forces and it's just you and that general fighting a handful of people at a time. PoF did this FAR better, like that instance where you get Rytlocks sword and fighting dozens of soldiers at a time. The Kryptis plot should've been and ENTIRE expansions, not 2-3 updates.

[@zhamirdiaz3196]

Honestly been playing GW2 since launch on and off, Soto was my least favorite expansions. I did like alot of the features, but the quarterly releases and story were just lacking tbh.

[@La.máquina.de.los.sueños]

I agree, the 2 first parts was awesome and had full of potential... and then it went into a crescendo of BS... with a traditional Icebrood saga -Gyala delve'like down the drain end. Anet NEED better story writers ASAP. I predict that in the next "expansion" we'll get an other OP Mary Sue, an other 5 years old lesson as main story, and we will crown an umpteenth queen of course... never such thing as too many queens. 🙄 TBH, I'm surprised that Zoja didn't replaced Isgaren, bc he's quite a jerk... 😅

[@utmastuh]

I'd rather their new content come in one big finished amazing lump and in-between they give us balance, weapons, tools, systems, events, etc to fill the void

[@Draconicrose]

I like the skyscale sections but they could stand to be a little shorter and more spaced out.

[@alanking7331]

SotO has bored me so badly that I have yet to finish the 2nd part.

[@Creativesucks]

The only reason I played it as much as I did was to unlock all the weapons, because I didn't want to spend all that currency on it. I doubt I'm going to finish it.

[@Auriorium]

By the end of this, as someone who is still in EoD, I am happy I didn't buy it when it dropped, might do it when the new one drops. I stopped there because if I continue I know that when I will talk to Soo-Won in her Water Dream realm of effects my PC will turn into an Airbus A380 engine.

[@imayb1]

Those long green bars you have to fill are just a big F U, as I see it. I sincerely wish they'd stop using those as story. They're content, sure, but they're things to do outside of story. Forcing me to do them AS story is frankly, lazy. Forcing us to fill the green bar with map when we've had access to the map for months is terrible game design.

[@frea2191]

Soto had alot of really good quality of life changes and i liked what they did with all the classes and their weapons, but overall the content itself was kinda dissapointing. I hated the partial map releases... and after they admitted it was a bad idea to bring it back again... im much more enthusiastic about the next addon

[@PoohbearZa]

I love GW2 and always will, but i did not like the Kryptis design and look, also the do events while playing the story is a real put down. So i have not really been invested to play much . I will finish the story before the new expansion but ya its been rough trying to finish this.

[@tiriyoncontinuum9519]

nah nah Muk, I'm gonna stop watching if this patreon trash noise is gonna keep on going. It's just annoying, and ruins your video.

[@AhriFae]

I just want devs to play the damn game! Its obvious the meta and fractal content hasnt been tested, cluster or things with a rock in the middle that needs to be punched for 20 minutes is not fun

[@geekwars3998]

I kinda disagree with the idea that the story can't be ambitious just because it's told in a single year. If FFXIV can tell an incredible story with many _many_ new memorable characters introduced, all in about 30-40 hours story campaign in a single patch (just the expansion launch patch alone), then why can't we tell a great story in a whole year?! Emet-Selch was properly introduced _and_ killed off in a single patch (5.0 MSQ) and he's still hailed as one of the greatest antagonists ever written in the history of the Final Fantasy franchise. I'm not saying we should be expecting Shadowbringers level of writing, but saying that they just shouldn't aim for complex narratives to be told in a single year is such a defeatist take on the matter... You should _always_ aim for bold goals if you want great success. The bar should always keep rising higher, not lowered with bs excuses. Failure is better than not even trying at all.

[@BundyBro_]

Hammer isnt too bad on cliffside, its just how long it takes to bust those chains. A lot of fractals need a complete overhaul. They need to feel modern? idk, they need to take a season to fix that instead of re-releasing the same map like its Skyrim or something. But on topic of SOTO....there were some cool things that got released at the wrong time. It is what it is and all we can do is look forward to another complex grounded story where everything and nothing makes sense all at the same damn time. I might be a sarcastic little skritt but I still love GW2 at the end of the day.

[@Warcrafter4]

Given how horrible most of the new fractals balance is..I'd rather them not as their current balance would only make it worse. This is before how insanely buggy the new ones are. Context:Lonely Tower at T4 has a ~50M hp boss that constantly gets a 1+M hp shield making him realistically having 60-70+M hp...That's nearly 3 raid bosses worth of hp when you half the players. The less said about Silent Surf's balance and endless game breaking bugs the better.

[@bastiaanzeeman3922]

13:00 To each their own. I don’t agree. I think it’s nice to have a more bigger and complex field of emotions and decision making for peitha deciding not to go destroy Tyria. It fits an ancient being to decide otherwise I think and I think it’s explained well throughout the story and side story’s. I would find it very dull and one out of a dozen-y if it would be a demon wanting to destroy our world and we have to stop it and succeed doing so. I like the complexity of peitha and eparch and find it quite good to relate too. - I agree nayos is a somewhat fearful and depressing place. But I actually like it. Not to hang around and farm my essences. But to me it’s very original. I don’t have any games to compare it with I have to add

[@xSixthiSx]

wish they reflected more on their ability to tell a story. i think they're completely blind in the writers department

[@Ninosai]

Peitha with no arguments: L + dead wife

[@AlexNight17]

I never liked PoF maps, felt boring to me. But it's the first time, when i actually dislike a map (Nayos)

[@Echotracers]

I hate the kryptis, I'm not a fan of the soto storyline, I disliked the characters, I like the weapon training, I hate the skyscale upgrades but like that new players can get a skyscale more cheaply. and I really hate the new maps but love all the mobility of leylines and whatnot in the new maps (but they do kinda force you to do all the old content for mastery skills or suffer). I feel like they could have done a better job with a real expansion not involving kryptis, and just tossed in the weapon training and legendary armor with that and I would have been so much more happy. Oh and the legendary relic thing feels like they stole our hat, chopped off the brim, gave us our brinmless hat back and then sold us a replacement brim and ducktape.

[@snootygymp3609]

Calling SoTO complex is…concerning. Unless we count new and infuriating ways to fill a green bar complex. First release - do rifts in Skywatch. Get to Amnytas, do more rifts, but only 1, a big one. Hah, just kidding, good job on the one rift, now do some more. Second release - make nice with demons until your bar is green, third release, rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat and didn’t we have to do vistas as well? Last release? My actual time spent participating in a meaningful way in the last drop, ie doing anything years of honing my fighting skills to supreme mediocrity have enabled me to do instead of listening to the endless bickering, is less than 30 minutes. How much complexity can fit into 30 minutes?

[@programmingwithchatti4063]

the complexity was the vision of the story. the story felt waaaay rushed for that many new charecters intruduced no one felt the same connexion other charecters had so the vision was complex probably but then they threw it all since 1 year is waaaay too little of a time to develop something like that

[@AzureRoxe]

@@programmingwithchatti4063 You'd think that after NEARLY A DECADE OF EXISTING, that they'd know not to overextend on their visions, but i guess that's too much to ask.

[@repapeti98]

5th expansion? I own all of them but I can only remember Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire. The Definitely-Not-Asia expansion (which was End of Dragons?) gave me my jade mech, a leggy staff and the skiff which I haven't used in like 7 months. The story and SoTO's plot were so forgettable that I'm even having trouble naming locations.

[@GetFlanked-l6n]

Eod is way better then soto, also the skirf used by fisherman's in game

[@marinhrabric6162]

​@@GetFlanked-l6n oh absolutely not. I would say they are equally dissapointing for different reasons. In fact i think EoD might just be worse.