Multi-Pitch Belaying- Potentially Fatal Errors to Avoid

[@mtadams2009]

I like watching these videos on how things are done today. As an old man who climbed decades ago you would not believe how things were done back in the day. I never used any device belaying my second.We used a figure eight device for belaying a lead climber and that was about it. I learned to repel and catch a lead climber without using any belay device, just the friction from my waist. Yes is was painful and my waist would get rope burned. This all said I never dropped anyone and I climbed all over the country. The new gear looks nice. I never even thought of belaying two people at one time. I guess on big walls that would come in handy. Thanks for sharing. My nephew who does a lot of indoor climbing keeps trying to get me back into climbing but that ship has sailed. Thanks

[@bf4070]

Hate the fact that the climber 2 is bagged up, what happened ?

[@ripperkon]

Nice one. Looking forward to more of these.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Glad they're useful for you!

[@zephyr11235]

Silly question: why can't the climber tie themselves in? This way the belayer can keep their focus on the brake side of the rope and let the climber worry about the clove hitch.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

That would work in most scenarios. There are scenarios where it wouldn't work, just as guiding.

[@michagorecki8893]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 then the guide should teach a client how to tie a clove hitch before they start a multipitch route

[@nathanwilson3185]

@@michagorecki8893 I can barely clove for the life of me and I’ve been leading for almost a year. There are a lot of other ways to do the same thing but I’ve been guided and tied off by the belayer to keep things faster less crowded or more efficient at the anchor, the belayer can do it out of my reach while I stand on a ledge to the side and it’s quicker than whipping out more gear

[@patkap41]

You guys just blew my mind with the air clove... Wont do that again!

[@ZacharyWinters7]

Tying the clove on the brake strand, instead of the follower's end, eliminates issue #1.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Zachary Winters It certainly does, however it eliminates the followers ability to weight- test the system before being taken off the Reverso. Thanks for contributing the extra info!

[@morenovrancich9118]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 this is the only complain? oh well, I was sorry it might be something else. Thanks for the video.

[@mareklesniak8768]

Why not clip the follower with a simple sling + carabiners (or whatever else is at hand) into the anchor first, and then tie the clove hitch?

[@maximilianpierce5115]

more like lazy. just carry the extra gear and you wont die

[@Vehshya]

Really good information. But I feel that the visuals and explantations were kinda rushed through. I'd love to see a deeper dive.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Thanks for the feedback, Vehshya. We like to make a mix of in depth vids and quick tech-tips for different viewers. I personally like the more in depth vids as well, so we'll be making more of those soon!

[@speterlewis]

Good video. There are always things to think about, and unintended consequences await if things are taken too casually, or if techniques are attempted without solid understanding. And sometimes the gear configuration details are really subtle! When buying new gear, don't just toss away the instructions on the hang-tag! Petzl (in particular) does an excellent job of visually explaining the do's and don't of there gear, and a few minutes of familiarization can save lives. Above and beyond that, don't experiment on your friends: get good instruction before attempting to use new things.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Peter Lewis Thanks for your thoughtful comments Peter.

[@speterlewis]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Thanks. This stuff is important to me. I was a mountain guide for many years and worked for the AMGA for a few years.

[@nathanmitchell2827]

For issue #1, couldn’t the follower just bring a sling (or PAS of they are feeling fancy), and go indirect when they get to the belayer?

[@michalskalski1376]

Thats what I thought was the norm

[@RickyHarline]

@@michalskalski1376 it is encouraged to use the rope as your point of attachment as often as possible. For this reason many climbers (especially experienced ones) will only use a sling or PAS when rappelling and never use them when climbing. Personally I don't put my PAS on during a multipitch that we will be rappelling until I actually get to the rappelling part. It is inferior to using the rope in every way and isn't really even any faster once you get used to the one handed clove. In other words I love the PAS as a tool and am very pro-PAS, but I have it on my harness maybe 5% of the time. There are times where a PAS (or sling or Purcell prusik or whatever) is the right tool but most of the time the rope is vastly superior. Why use a worse tool for no reason?

[@enjii]

@@RickyHarline I like to clip my PAS in first, then hitch in with the rope. This seems like a good way to avoid some of the issues raised in this video.

[@timonix2]

​@@enjii On a bolted belay station I like to attach my PAS to one bolt and the rope to the other. Basically making my own anchor.

[@logann]

Good information. Love this channel

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Thanks! We'll have more up next month!

[@koenbeeckman87]

Isnt the solution to let your climber do his thing, tie his knot, i prefer the petzl adjust

[@rxa72]

I prefer Kong Swing. Great video! Many, many thanks!

[@simonmentz8166]

Good video. Didn't waffle on and the visuals combined with graphics highlighted the issues well. Needless to say 'guide mode' has a lot of downsides.

[@mattiashofmann3695]

They aren't really downsides, just misuse. To many people don't take the time to actually understand how things work, but it's all intuitive.

[@sallylee4924]

For the first scenario, isn't it faster and safer to just tie a knot on the brake strand?

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

It can be but it's not neccesary every time, it can be slower.

[@dyingfor]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 how is just making an overhand knot on the rope you are already holding slower than having to get an extra Karabiner from your harness, clipping it in and then making a clove hitch with one hand only while hoping your partner doesn't fall during the process, rendering your whole belay plate useless?

[@johngrisbach9417]

Great info. Thank you

[@JorgsTube]

Wondering if anyone uses the following method in the first scenario? I generally would not tie off my second when they lead on... we swap belay devices, i.e. I grab their atc (while they grab my remaining rack), put them on belay on the brake hand side, thread a runner placed (generally) in the top of the anchor (to eliminate the factor 2 fall), then second unties the atc I used to belay them up with, and away they go. NB to thread the runner after they are on belay (else atc they are on is useless), but before they untie their atc (else you risk them falling directly onto your atc). During this process I always keep my hand on the brake side (or may tie a quick stopper knot, e.g. during breaks or on akward stances).

[@delayedinsanity]

I fell 30ft trying to read this.

[@JorgsTube]

Mark Waterous , haha, I'm already on the next stance ;)

[@skylermavor9091]

Yeah I do this method when there's a nice ledge. Not as useful for a hanging belay.

[@sallylee4924]

This is exactly what we do as well! We both find it to be the most efficient transition.

[@Nerudah]

English is not my native language, is there a video of this somewhere please?

[@zeitgeist785]

Great info. With the traverse scenario, I'm really interested in how/why the failure happens on one rope but not two? Is it that the anchored climbers rope pulls the reverso onto an angle that doesn’t have the loaded rope pushing down on the brake strand?

[@mattiashofmann3695]

If there was one rope, then if a fall happened it would most likely pull the atc to an angle that the auto-blocking would work. The (i'm assuming weighted) red rope holds it at a poor angle. The red climber should isolate themself from the atc when they reach the top.

[@heli400]

I would assume that red rope climber passes the biner (unclips the directional) then falls and weights the ATC in a downward angle, next the blue rope climber falls but the ATC is not able to align itself towards the directional offering little to no braking force (rope is no longer able to bind against itself)

[@rulyg94]

I really appreciate the points made in the video and will ensure to use this knowledge in my climbing. I would like to know more about the three incidents which were referenced towards the beginning of the video :)

[@chad4853]

As a fellow climber myself and recently in a climbing accident I find that these videos are more important more than ever I watch more of these now and less who is climbing the hardest for route without a helmet. thank you for sharing this video much appreciated.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Woodland Bushcraft If you go to the American Alpine Club website and look under Publications > Accidents, you can find the synopsis of each accident we referenced. It's good reading, though a bit alarming 😬

[@felixd1127]

For what the clove hitch in the first example? Just do any kind of knot into the break rope close to the atc and everything is fine and done easily and safe...

[@Mike-wi2uq]

Did the belayer hold both ropes going out from the belay device in case #2? It is not clear from the video. If he/she didn't do that than this is the wrong usage of the device and such a "fall" of the third climber can happen even without the traverse scenario. But if he/she did hold both ropes than this a more serious concern although I would imagine that there should be enough friction to hold the third one when he falls.

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Mike I think you're probably right- if the belayer was holding on to the break strand the fall *probably* would've been arrested, but maybe not and certainly not easily. Once the ropes are split in 2 directions (as demonstrated ) it greatly reduces the friction and I think a lot of people wouldn't be able to/ready to hold the break strand tight enough. Also, it's common practice, especially in the alpine guiding world, to not hold the break strands. Thanks for thoughtful comment!

[@512dude]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 - manufacturers of belay devices used in "guide" mode clearly inform the user to keep the hand on the brake rope because that is how they were designed. If in practice users ignore those recommendations then they shouldn't expect the device to operate as intended. I agree, climbers get complacent and do not always keep the brake hand on in guide mode as they assume the device will pinch down. Thanks to your instruction it clearly illustrates why one should keep the brake hand ready to catch a fall even from the top. For the first scenario why wouldn't the belayer just clip the follower in with a clove hitch on the brake hand side of the rope?

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

@@512dude Thanks for the comments. You're right, the manufacturers clearly state that you need to keep a break hand on the rope. But in practice, most Rock and Alpine Certified Guides that I've worked with feel that it's unreasonable to keep a hand on the break. That makes it more dangerous but taking care of yourself at the belay (food, water, layers, etc) is often WAY more important on long routes. In regard to your other question, I like to clip my clients in to the anchor so the rope goes direct from their harness to the clove hitch, then they can lean back and weight test their new system before I take them off belay.

[@skylermavor9091]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 "Also, it's common practice, especially in the alpine guiding world, to not hold the break strands." Holy heck that seems like a reckless habit, especially for guides. Rule #1 of belaying is to never let go of the brake hands. It seems better to do the food/water/layer tasks with one hand or just wait. Isn't it a theme that many climbing accidents stem from trading safety for time?

[@wuffpaw]

Why not tie off the break strand and clip it to the anchor?

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Because you'd continually have to adjust it to take up the slack in the break strand as the climber progresses.

[@wuffpaw]

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 sorry, should have elaborated: at the point in your video where the follower nears the anchor and falls, with the rope slipping due to the second locker blocking the Reverso/Guide, instead of clipping them in to a second locker, why not continue to belay them until they are near/at the anchor, then tie off and clip the brake strand into a locker? I mean, the device is still doing its job for the follower all the way to the anchor, no? Why are you clipping the climber side to a locker---if the Guide is doing its job, why not just belay them all the way up, then tie off and secure the brake side so, in the event of the Guide/Reverso failing, the knot will catch??

[@sweetandsouahpork2170]

@@wuffpaw Amateur question, would a second belay device on the anchor be another way to handle this situation? If the tension being applied being sideways therefor not initiating the intended friction, wouldn't a second, "sidways" facing device help solve that?

[@wuffpaw]

@@sweetandsouahpork2170 maybe, but I am not sure I understand your question/setup. Most people don't climb with a second device and shouldn't need to, since the Guide/Reverso should work fine by itself if properly setup. I always just tie off and clip the brake side once my follower gets to the anchor, as I noted above. I don't really understand SIETs point in the video, as I've never seen a practice like that of clipping the FOLLOWER side of the rope off before they get there. That's not how a Guide/Verso works...

[@drqazlop]

I'm also confused my this. Is this a scenario where the climber cannot get all the way to the anchor? The braking hand while tying the "air clove" looks like mighty weak grip and if the climb took a fall, mid "air clove" tying, it didn't look like the hand would manage to brake. Plus the braking hand goes above the belay device making a fall during this process to not be able to initiate braking in the belay device. Do y'all think?

[@revhead]

What would be the recommended method to avoid the issue with the traverse? If the climber were to use a PAS or sling to tie into the anchor, would that avoid the other climber on the traverse being exposed to this risk?

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Great questions. I'd recommend bringing 2 Reversos if you have to split the ropes. The PAS solution might be problematic if someone falls before they reach the anchor (before they can clip in their PAS).

[@mattiashofmann3695]

If there was one rope, then if a fall happened it would most likely pull the atc to an angle that the auto-blocking would work. The (i'm assuming weighted) red rope holds it at a poor angle. The red climber should isolate themself from the atc when they reach the top.

[@danielmilka1212]

Thanks.Greeting From Poland

[@globaleyes840]

I wonder how screws hold ropes and weight in snow...!! Like i watched climbing David Lama...! So i end up searching for these videos. Couldn't find any..!

[@jimsagubigula7337]

Ice* and it's because ice is hard af

[@globaleyes840]

@jimsagubigula7337 somewhere it feels like snow only.

[@jimsagubigula7337]

@@globaleyes840 You don't put ice screws in snow. You put pickets

[@globaleyes840]

@@jimsagubigula7337 thanks for info. I watched some climbing tutorial videos they described about that too.

[@borethuy4868]

In general, when you switch task you should always tie a cat knot.

[@ianbrannan9608]

so basically a video that makes me wanna buy a personal anchor system

[@mls01981]

I agree with you -- this seems the safest way to me. I see no reason to end my job as the belayer UNTIL the second climber has secured him or herself to the anchor. There are many ways to safely do this before coming off belay -- the second climber could tie a clove hitch with the rope to a locking carabiner or he or she could use a sling/draw/PAS (my preference) to connect to the anchor. If the second climber loses it, even an inch away from the anchor, I can safely catch him or her.

[@misterlarryb]

Brake, not break. Good demos of what could go wrong when the belayer takes their hand off the brake without first backing it up. Better to call this a brake assist mode that still requires a brake hand or a backup. No sense calling it auto braking, locking or blocking. It’s not auto anything.

[@nettewilson853]

Wait what???

[@xsuperbmentality]

Once we're both at the anchor how do we safely set up a belay for the next pitch?

[@talesofsirajuuuu8280]

Better to overhand mule on the breaking hand

[@hunterbynum6936]

Well internet say what you will, but that one handed clove example was marginal at best. There are two (2) ways I can think of to easily do this safely and they're both on youtube. This is a quality video otherwise and did help me.

[@heli400]

The point being made was not about tying a one handed clove, the point being made was that during the process of tying a one handed clove the first step of that process was clipping the rope into the biner (thus removing the braking force of the device while its in its guide mode (ie "the device won't auto-block any longer"), and then if for any or what ever reason the climber were to have fallen before the clove hitch could be completely tied within that second, The climber would fall completely

[@bohwaz]

Great :)

[@sietschoolforinternational5234]

Glad you dig it!

[@zoutfotografie]

The real problem is that you let go of the rope😅

[@xavxavxavier]

Yes, because you are distracted, or sick, or hit by a rock...

[@TSNchannel]

Good advisements

[@eyescreamcake]

That just seems like a fundamental flaw in the design and you shouldn't be using it for two climbers at the same time period.

[@Jfran-nj3dz]

Two followers on the same line pose little risk when using the reverso

[@Your_dads_account]

I completely disagree with SIET's case 1. It doesn't matter if your tying a 'one handed clove' or an 'air clove' or any other knot. The real problem is when, whatever knot is used is unfinished, and at moment the second climber falls and another carabiner or any foreign body interrupts the autoblocking geometry of the belay device/rope system. One must avoid cluttering around the belay device to prevent these kinds of failures. I think teaching people to make an 'air clove' is more likely to result in people taking their hand off the break to tie the 'air clove' with both hands, which is obviously more dangerous. The climber could tie their own clove, too. As the climber I always tie my own clove and I prefer the one handed method. In addition, in case 2 it is again the interruption of the blocking geometry of the belay device/rope that causes the blue rope to slide though. But SIET gives no advice on how to protect against this... How about "before one unclips the red rope tie a catastrophe knot in the blue rope's break line"? Or use a regular ATC off one's harness not the anchor when traversing in parties larger than two, so that this problem matters less?

[@versusgravity]

I agree, Just clip into the anchor and go off belay. Another issue with one handed air clove is the temptation to hold it open with a finger or thumb. If the climber falls then, bye-bye thumb.

[@bbarber1066]

I think this is much more of an issue when guides bring clients out that may not be relied upon to clove hitch themselves. Why you would trust that person to belay you on lead? Idk. But that seems to be the direction to me. I also just go in direct as a second approaching the anchor

[@mangiari]

I typically clip the break side as clove hitch, as I anyhow already have it in my hands... I have to admit that I already have let go of the break hand when the setup is straight down and blocking obviously, but then I at least wrap the break rope around my foot or similar, that there is at least a plan B. Typically I do things like that when speed is safety on a very long route and I have to lead all pitches. Because then I already pull through all the rope and organize everything for the next pitch, as my second climbs the last 20 moves.

[@panzergrenadier90]

i dont get why people like to use these "magic plates". just hook a locker to one of the anchor points and redirect the load rope through it and you are all set, then belay as you would when toproping.

[@PYates77]

In case you're looking for a real answer: The reason people use guide mode is so that they don't get sucked into the anchor if their follower falls, and its convenient to coil the rope when the belay device isn't attached to you. Also theoretically there's more load on the anchor if you redirect, but that shouldn't be a problem if the anchor is bomber. But yeah just use whatever is more convenient for the ledge

[@davidwright7193]

The main reason is to make handling 2 seconds in parallel much easier and means you can be doing things like organising the ropes, preparing for the next pitch, eating, drinking etc while bringing up both seconds. I have used guide plates like this occasionally mainly climbing in a 3 and on easy ground. In something over well over 1000 pitches of lead climbing I have never done what you suggest and don’t see why I would. You are just multiplying the force on the critical point by 2 to 3 fold in the event of a fall and gaining nothing of value. Typically belay in the system from my tie in loop with the rope running directly down from me to my second(s) with my stance tight on the anchors. In the unlikely event I clip an anchor as anything other than part of the belay it will be as a runner when I am leading off on the next pitch, if I can’t get a good early independent runner to prevent the possibility of a factor 2 fall.

[@telkmx]

​@@davidwright7193 Guide mode is just superior and safer

[@DeShark88]

You just multiplied the force on the anchor - Google the pulley effect. Also, belaying as you would when toproping doesn't have any autolocking function. It's harder to transform this into a hoist, it's more difficult to manage two followers, etc etc. Just because you "don't get" why it is useful doesn't mean that it's not useful for professionals. There's a reason it's used, there are risks with using it this way, those risks can be managed. This video probably isn't meant for you.

[@jhealy3110]

Being belayed off the anchor blows.

[@JamieBenoir]

on top belay? you want someone to belay you off their harness for a top belay?

[@Nerudah]

HIP BELAYS FTW!

[@jmiller5379]

@John Riggins which guides DONT do because it puts you in-system and leads to other problems. Belaying from the anchors sucks when the person isn't paying attention or isn't practiced but it's much easier to work with if something goes wrong. Belaying in-system in multi pitch is done but has also killed a lot of people in climbing in all kinds of terrain and can make rescue by the party itself sometimes near impossible.

[@eyescreamcake]

Ropes are for gumbies

[@imxd9698]

just use a grigri lol