Multi shot bows - FUN

[@whirving]

Last year, just for fun, I bought a replica Mongolian style recurve bow. It has been about 35 years since I've shot a bow regularly, and once I got that bow I was out in the yard 3 days a week. Shocking how much came back since, but also shocking how inconsistent I am, but its fun. I blame Tod's channel.

[@tods_workshop]

Blame away!

[@nokta7373]

I blame Tod too, got me into archery as well. Been shooting for a couple years now and it's all his fault lol.

[@PsihoKekec]

Can't go wrong with following up on Jörg's madness.

[@darwinism8181]

Jörg's laugh is great and deserves such prominent featuring

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

It's one of the most wholesome sounds in the universe.

[@JeffreyOller]

Let us hear its features! HAHAHAHA!

[@Camcolito]

Liked Jorg until he started bringing politics onto his channel.

[@silverbladeTE]

The Chinese "Cho Ko Nu" repeating crossbow *was* used in war...of a specific type. For URBAN or ambush work, a fast light repeater is perfect. In defence, assistants can hand you a loaded weapon quickly Hit & run raiders, fending off infiltrators, naval combat (where few wear heavy armour), generally enemies with little armour etc, such devices are valid :)

[@Just_A_Dude]

Sounds about right. Kinda the medieval equivalent of an SMG.

[@silverbladeTE]

@@Just_A_Dude Exactly! :)

[@jancello]

@@silverbladeTE Except that due to the intense hand-to-hand combat that they entail, boarding actions on the contrary often imply heavy armour (by the standards of any relevant era)

[@silverbladeTE]

@@jancello The presence of the *sea* suggests otherwise ;)

[@FireStormOOO_]

@@jancello The distinction between the sailor and marine contingent also muddies the water some; they're often equipped differently depending on the place and time we're talking about.

[@klondikechris]

Tod has a great approach to looking at this serious side of ancient weapons. He is careful, and methodical in his research. But, some of his best videos are where he is just having fun!

[@ShiningDarknes]

A second person like a servant or squire could reload a second bow for you while you are loosing your 5 arrows, that would sort the issue out and give you a nearly continuous stream of arrows at that about 2-4x the rate of a bow without the magazine. The benefit of always having the same anchor point between all archers makes training archers to hit the same ranges much simpler, basically these could have been the gap-fill between bow and crossbow.

[@tods_workshop]

Nice points - thanks

[@llamatronian101]

That second person could also hand arrows to the regular archer. Probably placing then just where the archer can grab them for their next shot. That would reduce or remove the gap.

[@jamesmayes4351]

Wow its really been 4 years since the medieval Legolas?

[@Keiranful]

Yep, that's what I thought as well.

[@steevee4610]

Lockdown longbow doesn't feel that long ago...time flies!

[@GilgameshEthics]

Time definitely seems wild as you get older

[@Quadstriker]

This channel was part of my lockdown viewing. Yeah... four years wow.

[@LeonM4c]

Jeeezz man.....time marches on

[@nokta7373]

Your videos, Jorg videos and a bunch of other brothers of the sword videos are what finally convinced me to try out archery myself. So I joined a local club and have been shooting regularly for about 2 years now and I freaking love it. I bet many did like I did. So thank you Tod, your always cheerful attitude and knowledgeable insights are rare and precious. Also the only channel on youtube I don't skip the promotional stuff because you manage to make them fun too lol. Cheers my man.

[@riku861]

The disadvantage of needing to reload it is overcome by how they used to use muskets in war; shoot, line falls back to reload, next line comes, shoots, repeat. Or they have dedicated reloaders. Of course the durability of such a mechanism is the more glaring issue, but on paper, it could have been used in war quite effectively.

[@thejackscraft3472]

kind of, Muskets were an increase in the power of the weapon, to the point of being able to punch through armor, so the downsides were worth it. with this you could just have more archers and get a better effect, the same firerate but stronger bows, for less cost.

[@freestatefellow]

I could see some flash Italian noble springing for one or two of these for a bodyguard as a way of showing off to his mates.

[@terrenusvitae]

This looks very similar to an Eatern Roman device called the Solenarion, which shot large numbers of very small arrows, or darts (I think in the contemporary venacular they were called 'flies'), a very long distance. The key I believe was outpacing the enemy and forcing the enemy to advance or retreat from the field.

[@PorcoWest]

Todd finally got around to making a purchase from yourself am mega hyped about it thanks for all the hard work you have put in over the years.

[@tods_workshop]

Enjoy!

[@MrMartinSchou]

I think the "reloading is slow" is a fallacy, because that could easily be solved with helpers. One or two dedicated young boys per shooter, depending on just how fast they can get with reloading. It took Tod 10 seconds to shoot 4 arrows and 22 seconds to reload. Assume the same speed for a dedicated reloader, and two reloaders can keep the archer fed for as long as the archer has stamina for it. Now the 8 shots are down to 20 seconds + swapping out the bow. Let's say 25 seconds. And in reality, there's a very good chance that reloading could be much faster. If that's all you're doing for several hours a day for a year, you're going to figure out how to load in 4 arrows at a time, even without a speedloader.

[@robo5013]

Then you would have to feed two non-combatants for every archer. Imagine at a battle such as Agincourt; instead of having 7000 archers the English would have only had 2300 while still having to feed 7000 people.

[@YouTube.Is.Run.By.Terrorists]

I was thinking almost the same thing, but with all archers. 3 rows of archers all loading their own arrows, the front row would let their 4 arrows loose, immediately about face, then walk to the back of the formation to reload their arrows. They get 2 rows ahead of them before it's their turn to let the arrows fly again. Gives each archer a few seconds between each volley to maintain stamina through a long engagement. It would be a constant conga line of arrows. 😂

[@colorpg152]

@@robo5013 but they did it with crossbows and it worked so why not these bows?

[@99Plastics]

@@colorpg152 Crossbows offered higher power, this offers less. It was the price of knowing a crossbow bolt would do it's job. This would't.

[@robo5013]

@@colorpg152 As far as I know European crossbowmen reloaded their own weapons.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

They already exist in history including full draw length repeating bows such as the Korean repeating crossbow and chu repeater. None of these changed warfare because archers can already shoot similar speeds

[@grim4this]

I think you may have missed something. Archers could shoot at similar ( maybe even faster ) speeds because they were trained and skilled. A peasant can shoot one of these, as they lock on full draw removing any preasure, you can now aim without any fatigue, doesnt matter to a trained archer matters a lot to someone battling to hold the string back. This is why shit rifles were used, think of a muzzle loader vrs a skilled archer, archer wins by lots, so why did we use muzzle loaders?. It takes weeks not years to train riflemen. In fact archers ( highly trained asset of the army ) stood behind armour, but with rifles people can be replaced so quick we just lined them up out front and said shoot. Did we get them to back up when the enemy charged, no we just told them to stick a knife on the end and charge back, can always replace those men in a week or two, skilled archers on the other hand take years and small weak men couldn't be trained? Also, and this may just be hollywood infecting my mind, but they shot in waves for full effect ( fear and damage ) but huge wave of arrows, gap, huge wave of arrows, gap can sort of be timed, would it not of confused the hell out of the enemy if their was almost no gap between waves, as I said tho this may be based more on movies then anything else.

[@Dang_Near_Fed_Up]

I could see the multishot bow being used by archers on top of a castle wall. You step out from behind a crenelation take 4 to 6 shots, then duck back behind the crenelation to reload possibly before the first bolt hit the ground or an invader. This would maximize the capability of a small defensive force inside a prepared defensive structure. Lesser range would be offset partially by the added height of the wall. And you could have multiple bows prepared and ready behind different crenelations allowing for a higher rate of fire. You merely hand off the empty to an assistant, child, or whatever to reload while you move to the next firing point and bow to continue to lay down fire. 1 archer would seem as a small army using this tactic.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and yes it could have application as you say, but in a siege resources count and 'spray and pray' would be tricky to sustain.

[@Dang_Near_Fed_Up]

@@tods_workshop I agree spray and pray would be an issue. I was thinking more in terms of dealing with a manpower shortage for the defenders against a larger offensive force. Say that most of the men were called up to act as an offensive force for the King elsewhere, leaving the women, children, and elderly behind with barely a token defensive force, and then vikings slipped in behind the lines of the war where the men were fighting.

[@robo5013]

The biggest problem I see with the repeating bow mechanism on campaign would be durability. Since it is made mostly, if not entirely, out of wood, marching with it under different weather conditions with every part constantly expanding and contracting due to temperature and moisture variations would very quickly make it inoperable.

[@Seelenschmiede]

Laquer, oil, wax, pitch, loincloth sacks...

[@tods_workshop]

I am with robo. water gets everywhere as does moisture and things would swell, however I did make all the slides with bone which would help the slider at least

[@MartinGreywolf]

Forget about the weather, you worst enemy would be the people using them. Soldiers aren't exactly famous for treating their gear with delicate care, and it takes only one instance of haphazardly stacking a bunch of these on a wagon before something breaks. These are the same people who were known for sawing bits off of their pikes so that they would be easier to carry, after all.

[@johnfisk811]

@@MartinGreywolf I have seen what modern squaddies can do to abuse modern steel small arms so complicated wooden ones stand no chance on campaign.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

They were used in the Korean navy artillery sized versions where lots of moisture is exposed

[@EpicOfChillgamesh]

I love that Tod can be totally practical with his analysis and still admit... this thing is fun!

[@PadanGedowitch]

One flaw of the speed comparison is his shooting stile. If he would shoot the arrows from the outside he wouldn't waste time lowering the bow. On the other side the opening of the legolas is big enough, he could line up the arrows in his hand and load them all at one.

[@phale426]

The rapid fire aspect is indeed the fun part, but I think the actually game-changing part of the design is the slider/hold mechanism. It essentially replicates the consistent draw, release, and hold functionality of the crossbow, drastically reducing training requirements, without nerfing rate of fire as a crossbow would. I'd imagine that a single-shot version that just uses the slider/hold mechanism would have been the true history changer, in the same way that crossbows were in real life. Especially considering the practical limitations of stamina and logistics when it comes to repeating bows.

[@ShiningDarknes]

Indeed, the consistent hold point would make massed volleys far less variable. Really what this would have brought is that niche the crossbow ended up being, a far easier for an untrained person to learn faster than a normal longbow. SO you mix in your seasoned longbowmen using higher poundage with these lesser bowmen using a lower poundage but consistent draw length and suddenly you get suppressive fire and penetrative fire thus further causing chaos in the enemy line because some of the arrows are mostly harmless to anyone with a shield or decent armor but some of the arrows deeply penetrate the shield and armor. But yeah its place would have been perhaps as a training tool or for additional fire potentially even used for a more mixed army to quickly let off 4-5 arrows before swapping to a shield and polearm to form a shield wall to meet what is left of the enemy's advance. Or perhaps you have a squire load up a SECOND bow while you are loosing from the first one, then hand you the reloaded bow, and repeat? Eh? Now THAT fixes the reloading issue, they don't need speed loaders, the idea of having battlefield servants or squires to hand you shit was already a thing and later when crossbows became a thing especially for sieges each crossbowman would have at least 2 crossbows so they could line up a shot and loose then have another ready to go and have a second person reloading for them. A second person is literally the solution, not a fancy speed loader.

[@phale426]

@@ShiningDarknes The real limiting factor is stamina, not reloading. These aren't firearms, they are entirely human powered. Multiple war weight draws in rapid succession gets tiring extremely fast. Reloading actually gives you time for your muscles to rest. If you're going to have two people and two bows anyway, it makes far more sense to distribute the drawing effort between both of them instead of concentrating all the effort on one. (Sure you could argue that the reloading guy doesn't need to be trained as much, but we've already established that slider mechanism reduces training requirements so why not have him shoot too?)

[@ShiningDarknes]

@@phale426 Then add a third guy into the mix. One guy lets loos their magazine, steps back to reload while another guy steps up and a third guy who had previously just stepped back to start reloading as about half way done reloading, repeat. Now you have 3 archers cycling fire and each have about 20ish seconds of rest between volleys.

[@timothy545]

@@phale426 You have a point about the exhaustion factor. If I was an all powerful medieval person, subject to his kings whims, I would want two of them one left hand one right so that my boy could reload for me and I would be able to swap hands each salvo this would promote balanced muscle growth in the arms and could increase endurance by as much as 2x. About the second point though, I believe that my boy in this scenario would actually be my boy (my Sun/Daughter). No muscle would be needed to reload so a child could do it. Although I think its features would shine more in a home defense situation where there is a greater chance of only having one or very few strong men around to defend you from other strong men trying to invade your home.

[@calsalitra4689]

I'm not so sure. Crossbows were valuable not only because they were easy to aim and load, but also because they had significantly lessened strength requirements. You don't need to be Joe Gibbs to load and fire a crossbow, but you do need to be Joe Gibbs to fire a 120 lbs magazine-fed bow.

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

The medieval use I could see is ambush, hit and run. Have 5 men sneak up on an enemy, unload 5 arrows each in rapid succession before they can react, then high tail it out of there before they know what happened. Especially for skirmishes, I could see the use. Not for a full battlefield, but don't under estimate skirmish weapons.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

It would mask your numbers, too. Make the enemy think there are way more shooters.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

Also, this has a great burst capability. If you and your mates are shooting at a bunch of French knights charging across a field, you have a much beter window of opportunity to hit a guy quickly, score a good hit, and move on to another. You're only going to get so many volleys off. And a knight can only block/dodge/withstand so many hits. Plus the psychological impact of so many physical impacts...

[@dawidouss6333]

Yeah, but what if you failed in running. Now you have a bow you can't shoot with and how will you defend? If you want to shoot fast, just learn how to shoot fast with a regular bow. Additionally your bow with a magazine is much heavier.

[@skylerstevens8887]

Also you can always pass a bow that is loaded on a wall. It also can be reloaded under cover instead of at the wall where you would shoot. You could even have non warriors assist like women or youths while still keeping them relatively safe. This also means that you need fewer archers other soldiers can assist with loading while waiting for the enemy to come into melee range.

[@jonmakar5646]

Jörg and Todd?! This is the most ambitious crossover since Avengers: End Game. Long time fan of the both of you for many many years!

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks

[@Flamebard]

I could easily see the whipshot being used in some kind of steampunk or cyberpunk movie where gunpowder isn't readily available. Not because of any particular practicality. It just looks like something made for an action movie.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Actually in that sort of setting I'd say it does or at least could have a particular practicality - its got more comparable rate of fire initially to the semi-automatic gunpowder weapons, and thus even when gunpowder is well understood and quality firearms can be made if the bird shit or whatever other ingredient is hard to acquire or too valuable to waste on ammunition that will hopefully sit on a shelf for most folks it would be somewhat of an equaliser.

[@rpgcraftsman520]

OH MY GOD IT DOES ALL OF MY YES

[@brianj.841]

@@foldionepapyrus3441 Also depends on climate, which kind of method and storage of gunpowder...

[@AccessAccess]

One potential use is that they shoot what are basically crossbow bolts, and do so significantly faster than a normal crossbow can shoot them. Crossbow bolts have shorter shafts and hence take less material, easier to produce en masse than war arrows and you may already have a large number on hand if your army makes use of crossbowmen already.

[@tabull8180]

Crossbows greatest strenghts are power and ease of use, neither which this has. Comparing it to crossbow is therefore pretty pointless, though maybe using the bolts is still good option.

[@Vazlist]

I love it when Joe is part of the videos

[@plusmanikantanr]

Just awesome to see Jorge's stuff in expert hands 😀 Wish more experts were enthusiasts like Tod 😀

[@steelwasp9375]

You can put a draw assist to shoot beyond your max poundage. It's modular. It's easy to use. You can hold fire. You can have a backup to double your output for the first minute. Or a squadmate in cover to reload. For a battleground with limited space, such as alleyways, windows, battlements, it doubles unit power density for as long as the shooter's stamina allows, and they can switch. Sounds ideal for tactical engagements. Maybe not medieval spetsnaz, but an ambush using those is going to be decisive. Perfect for an adventurer, or a party of. Rangers, scouts, hit and run, flanking formations. In a skirmish, there are times where you only have a small window of opportunity to fire shots before the melee ensues. No need to fumble for an arrow, you have a few shots ready even if you can't see, or if your quiver is unavailable. Is it an upgrade? Heck yeah. Is it useful for war? Heck yeah. Is it good in the scenarios and background limitations Tod putting it through? Nope. It feels like Tod tries to fit it in the idea of medieval brits, not thinking how it would change medieval brits. Besides, the stage is a lot bigger than that little rainy island. It's a weapon. It's effective. So the problem of manufacturing, supplying, and training... is not a problem. Last thing you know, it's a standard across the continent, with the new variations popping up here and there. Anywhere there are bows, there's no reason not to have the Instant Legolas, if at least as a supplementary unit. It definitely has it's use. Would it revolutionize combat? Change history? It's a bow. With a mag and aim assist, yes, but it's a bow. Bows or swords don't write history. Neither do guns or spaceships. The people who come up with it do. It, being bows, guns, and history itself. History is ever changing. Because it's just a story. It is no more, or it is not yet. It exists within the people's minds, and it changes as their view of it changes.

[@MarcusVance]

I gotta get one of those.

[@michaelwoodby5261]

It would have been perfect for mounted archers. Get within range, fire off your magazine, retreat and reload.

[@metern]

You forgot to add the tap at the fron that uses the index finger to hold the draw. Then, you don't need the muscles to hold the draw with the arm holding the string. You can even release the string hand because of that tap 😉. Joerg pointed out that that tap is important to make shootong a heavy longbow earlier.

[@undefined40]

Well, have an engineering challenge for you. Build it with replaceable magazines. That way, you can have two or three preloaded magazines at hand.

[@Harry-x4n]

Thrilled to see you step infront of the bow and demonstrate avoidance. Hope they were blunted or rubber or something for your safety but I've been thinking that's something missing from a lot of the debates is examples of what all of this is like for the target. An actual living breathing target. Not a mock up. Safety is paramount so I imagine it's quite the difficult task. Thanks for the film Tod.

[@roqua]

12:25 This is a great video and I like your channel. For future shots like this, I'd recommend figuring out how to get enough contrast between arrows and background so that the wheeling-n-dealing half dozen shots on different targets becomes visible as something other than your slow spinning and a "thwack" on the target boards. Fluorescing shafts, phosphorus tracers, micro-LEDs, painting arrows blue or green and chroma-keying them to a solid line of the flightpath in a composite shot. There are probably more ways a film SFX / VFX pro has to contrast arrows than night shoots with flaming arrows 😆Thanks for the upload 🙏

[@tuerkefechi]

Two of my favorite youtubers collaborating is just awesome. German and English Madness combined ;-)

[@guyselway4865]

That composite of Joe firing remains one of my favourite videos on the internet, I think facing that at close range would be terrifying. I'm not sure about your conclusion regarding medieval war. I think the ability to fire 4 aimed shots in 10 seconds would be immensely effective in the right circumstance, potentially battle winning. If that's true then it would be worth the investment.

[@Riceball01]

Agreed, plus the reload speed could be overcome by having 2 bows per archer and an assistant archer, like with modern machineguns, whose job would be to reload the bow. the archer fires his 4 shots he's then handed another bow by his assistant and the assistant goes to work reloading the bow just handed to him

[@garethvila5108]

I think the specific circumstances required for such a thing to be decisive wouldn't balance out the effort needed for such a weapon, or even the cons it has compared to a bow. It would be a more expensive weapon, require a specific type of ammo that can't be used on the other bows, worn by a soldier that wouldn't be able to wear both this and a common bow. This already is a major drawback, since you require a more expensive and specific unit that would be better just for specific circumstances. Also, keep in mind that it's a heavier tool, meaning it's more tiresome to use than the bow. It may not be a decisive negative, depends on the actual weight of the weapon, but it's worth mentioning. But, outside those circumstances where four aimed shots in ten seconds may be decisive, you would be better off with a bow. With volleys, and using Todd's testing as an example, you would have a soldier reloading for twice the amount of time he's shooting. This means you need to organize your unit into three groups each shooting when the other two are reloading, and being that you're only shooting twice as fast as a bow, having only 1/3rd of your soldiers shooting means your troops are actually shooting less than with bows. If, alternatively, they all shot together, you would have twice the arrows for 10 seconds, but then you would have huge gaps between volleys while everyone reloads. And, honestly, the difference in the rate of fire would only favour the magazine in very short amounts of time. Some quick math: -Todd shoots 1 arrow every 5 seconds with the bow, including reloading time. -Todd shoots 4 arrows every 10 seconds with the magazine, but takes another 20 to reload, which means an average of 1 arrow every 7,5 seconds. Yes, in the forty seconds that Todd tested it looks like they're balanced, but that's because it would still take another 20 seconds of reloading time for the magazine to complete it's "cycle", 20 seconds that would mean the bow is already four arrows ahead, an advantage that will only pile up over time. So in a minute the bow would already have the advantage. I struggle to think of a situation where such a difference would be worth the effort. Even taking into consideration that it's twice as fast for 10 seconds, I stuggle to believe this would be decisive in any battle.

[@minte1972]

maybe shock cavalry archery?

[@Myomer104]

​@garethvila5108 One of the things Tod didn't show was that the Instant Legolas is actually an attachment that gets strapped to an otherwise normal bow. So, in situations where a rapid volley isn't necessary, you can just detach the IL and use the bow, normally.

[@guyselway4865]

@@garethvila5108 What's battle winning is the four aimed shots in ten seconds, you do that at an enemy within 50m and you change the course of a battle. Carrying two bows also solves the problem although I concede that I don't know the cost of that.

[@Sirsethtaggart3505]

I always look forward to a vid from Tod.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks

[@WhatIfBrigade]

17:20 I think when a king can command everyone train every Sunday, you'll get a lot of Joe Gibbs level accuracy, distance and draw weight. And that boe strength will be useful in war. Teaching people to use an auto loading crossbow makes more sense when labor is more valuable such as today.

[@Aminuts2009]

I love it when Tod has fun.

[@EpicOfChillgamesh]

Jörg and Tod... what a fantastic pair!

[@davewarrender2056]

These weapons are the medieval version of a light machine gun. Fixed on swivel mount , on the ramparts or in a tower , two men , operator, and loader

[@philozoraptor6808]

Chinese actually used repeater crossbows with magazines for warfare and their power stroke was almost as long as on regular horse bow. They often used relatively low draw weights and poisoned arrows.

[@ExecutionSommaire]

3:18 nice Matt moment. Agreed that if it was invented back in those days, its use would have been mainly for the fun of people able to afford it. You could also make the magazine way bigger, and use a thin high quality steel blade for the feeding spring. Next, I suggest trying to see if they could have built a practical compound bow ;)

[@michaelfox1432]

Joerg will love this.

[@nastyevilbunny]

Jason Kingsley said this might have been a good weapon in raiding and ambushes, where you're tryng to put down a lot of firepower quickly, then you run away.

[@Sk0lzky]

I'm a traditionalist as well, I love my "horsebows" but the idea of a "home defense rapid fire bow" is just so juicy I may give in and buy this monstrosity

[@seanlavoie2]

Tod makes it look even more fun than I already thought it looked 👍 great video . . . Thoughtful analysis and cool action too

[@Billybobble1]

Awesome video Tod, interesting and funny throughout.👏

[@keganjones9063]

Agreed about the fun factor. I can't keep the Ballestrino you made for me down for very long without needing to shoot it again into a target on the other side of my home office room.

[@funkyschnitzel]

While you showed that one man firing the instant legolas including a reload is similar to the same man with a normal bow, this doesn't account for the possibility of ranks. If you had two ranks of men with magazine equipped bows, you could have the ranks swap to allow for reloads. This would allow for near constant firing at the higher rate allowed by the magazine. You'd need twice as many men, but could get more than twice the rate of fire.

[@TheTraginator]

The only "prtactical use" for this bow, that i can think of, would be for a bodyguard type scenario. Much like the montante, it would probably allow one or two people to defend a target against multiple opponents. And if you're ambushed in an alley, you probably won't have time to reload anyway.

[@rpgcraftsman520]

To be fair, I can imagine using those suppressing fire shots at short range. In this setup, if it were to work the way I'm picturing, it would not replace the longbow. It would be an additional strategy, an additional unit to add, no different from a crossbowman. Picture this setup: Longbowmen in the back, letting loose a cloud of arrows to fall on the enemy from on high, as artillery. Quickbowmen behind the front lines, waiting for the enemy to begin their charge into the wall you've made, of shields and pikes and swords and maces and axes. As they get close, the quickbowmen pull, aim, fire, push, and again thrice more; it slows enemy momentum, perhaps downs a few, causes stumbles in the charge. They reach your wall weakened, and the quickbowmen fall back, find a spot to hide, reload their bow-box, and run a quick check of the slides. Then, pull, aim, fire, push again, thrice more, from another angle. Tell me that wouldn't cause _some_ revolution to the battlefield - at least until they took it to the next logical step and made the actual crossbow!

[@zsDUGGZ]

If it existed in history, I feel like it would have been a massive game changer. I think the problem is giving these to trained archers when it would be much betteror untrained people. Like you said, people back then would likely be weirded out by the magazine, but it does offer advantages. The English had archery ingrained in their culture, so it would be a waste of time to transition them to the instant legolas. It would be better to give these to other countries that don't culturally train archery. The time to train someone to use an instant legolas would be much less than a bow. Not only that, the instant legolas can be comfortably held at full draw (for adjusting aim). It also allows you to use bows that are normally too heavy to draw normally. As for the reload time, you can see how much faster this is compared to say, a crossbow. I tend to compare this more to a crossbow than a bow because of the mechanical complexities, and my points is based off of giving these to untrained people.

[@tabull8180]

Why would this require the amount of strenght one needs to use it compared to regular bow?

[@lasselen9448]

I'd consider it for very specific situations, like an ambush where you need as many arrows as quickly as possible before the enemy reacts... But even then, the additional bulk makes it harder to get into position. Alongside the loss of power, it's probably not worth it.

[@tods_workshop]

Basically same with me - both my thoughts

[@PatrickKniesler]

​@@tods_workshop your friend on the continent likes to mention home defense in the land of the disarmed.

[@baconghoti]

At some point I thought Tod might compare it to crossbows target than just bows. It looks like bad market in medieval England, but what about France and Italy who where much more reliant on slow firers and needed better anti-archer technology more than anti-armour when facing the English doctrine.

[@tods_workshop]

They could both field decent bowmen, just in smaller quantities

[@mikurusagawa6897]

One thing I could see them working for is small scale ambushes, maybe attacking supply carts and stuff like that. Essentially what you've got with these, is for your couple of shots that you've got in the magazine, you have a firepower of much bigger group of men. And for ambush you'd be limited for how many men you can reliably hide, so for these first few seconds you'd have much greater firepower. And after you're empty you don't bother with reloading, you either charge in and finish the stragglers in melee, or if you don't think you've done enough damage, you run away before the enemy regroups.

[@thejackscraft3472]

you lower the number of men you can hide with this, since it's so large, and increase the chance of being caught before you spring your trap, since it's not a quiet piece of kit. if you're good with a bow you can still fire a couple shots from a normal bow before your targets really react, so it's not actually giving you enough to offset the downsides.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Darn that thing does look like fun, though colour me old fashioned I do like the medieval style one more... Also "The guy in the street didn't have that" comments I'd argue is somewhat but only somewhat wrong - Crossbow, ballista etc did and have existed along with many other more mechanical intricacies many of them would have experienced in their day to day lives. So even back then without nearly as much (if any) real education many folks on the street probably would know enough to recognise and have some ideas on potential fixes for most of the problems even if the language to describe a 'magazine jam' wasn't common parlance. Similar problems would have been encountered before by most of them I'd suggest.

[@tods_workshop]

I think I made my point badly and thanks for pulling me up. I suppose what I meant was that yes there were higher technology weapons and groups, but the average archer was not in that area and his weapon of choice is about as simple as you can get

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

@@tods_workshop Ah, you meant really more an argument along the lines of 'Don't fix what isn't broken' or 'Familiarity with a tool is more important than flashy features as long as the old tool works well enough'. Both of which would apply very well, the bendy stick is certainly effective, and the average archer of the period would be very well practised with it.

[@tods_workshop]

Yes I did and well put thanks

[@mban2748]

Some factors are so obvious, they can be easy to overlook. Like you say, Farmers will want to fight the way they hunt, with the bow they know. Thank you for this examination of this system

[@maryrose2676]

Did they use warbows to hunt?

[@tortex1]

@@maryrose2676 No, but as Tod said they hunted at close range and you don't get the chance to take a second shot. So an instant legolas would be useless added weight and loud in that situation, so a fad for the young'uns.

[@tods_workshop]

As regards bow weights for hunting, we don't know, however most people would not be in a position to own multiple bows, so my guess would be whatever they shot for war is what that guy would shoot if he hunted

[@weaponizedemoticon1131]

I generally agree with your conclusion. Perhaps the best use would be a few for quick defense against raiders or bandits, where a few able bodied people could injure or give pause to a disproportionate number of ruffians. But in standard warfare, I don't see how this system would outstrip the capabilities of well trained archers. But... Also, it would be awful fun.

[@styxspeedrun]

that last montage showed a perfectly good usage for this kind of weapon in a fight though.. and looked cool!

[@mandowarrior123]

Field battle it's not great, but castle defence when you're fighting over arrow slits it's brilliant, plus the height evens out the power. Horseback archery too is where I see it's benefit, to get an extra shot in during the pass. I think you're seeing it as a bow alternative not the rapid crossbow that it is. All your arguments are MORE true for crossbows. Plus any tension mechanism makes it stronger than a regular bow.

[@draegonspawn5361]

Said this before, but it eems like a calvary archer weapon. The casing reduces the arrow bouncing while on a moving horse. Ride into range, dump your mag and run away. Low poundage means you are needing for fire at the flank.

[@sangomasmith]

I think people keep misunderstanding how bows were used in warfare - probably due to all the hagiography around the longbow. A bow was not a battle winning weapon, it was a battlefield shaping weapon. Ranged weapons didn't become able to stop or scatter formations of men by themselves until the invention of the cartridge. So, on a battlefield, the extra firepower provided by the magazine still isn't going to allow you to knock over formations. Instead, you'd be better served by carrying an equivalent weight of extra arrows - more arrows means more ability to harry and disrupt the enemy before they make contact with your lines.

[@tods_workshop]

Nice - thanks

[@ShiningDarknes]

Citation needed.

[@sangomasmith]

​@@ShiningDarknes check out posts by Bret Devereaux on the topic.

[@ShiningDarknes]

@@sangomasmith posts? Can you be more specific, when I look him up I just get collections of all his posts which no, I am not sorting through just to find the stuff about bows. I saw a Lego star destroyer and stopped looking because clearly the posts cover far too many topics for me to blindly try to find one.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@ShiningDarknes literally just add the word "Bow" to a google search of his name and you can find a pretty detailed article incredibly easily. just looking up someone's name and expecting to find info on a specific topic is generally a terrible idea.

[@solanumtinkr8280]

A medieval Instant legolass may have found it's place in urban combat, where you can pre-tension it to fire, whip out, shoot and duck back in... or take a fair few rapid shots then duck for cover... It would have had it's uses...There was not as much "urban" back then, but that just shows you where and who could be using it. 40 lb compound is mid range as it currently tops out at 70.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

Medieval carriage defense. Some bandits tried to burgle the queen’s carriage quickly get filled full of bolts. Stop a party trying to board your ship

[@yajurka]

I think on the battlefield as well - but in certain scenarios. Two I think specifically: Against lightly armored charge (both infantry and cavalry): doesn't matter if reloading is slow if you can only take a few shots before dropping a bow and engaging in melee - why not fire more before that happens? Not sure it would work against heavily armored charge, though. In siege: Duck out of cover, release everything, get back to safe spot and reload in peace. It's especially good because you don't have to look down at your bow in between shots, meaning you can focus on target all the time. Oh, and not to mentions once breach has been made for holding choke points and thigh corridors. Wouldn't want to push when you see five guys with this on the opposite end of hallway. Also, if they transferred this technology into ballista, it would lose most of it's disadvantages and keep advantages.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Heavier compound bows exist, though they're quite rare. Kevin Strother claimed to hunt with 130-150lb compound bows.

[@ShiningDarknes]

What I am seeing everyone miss is the simple addition of a servant or squire reloading a second bow+magazine. Remember switching to your second weapon is faster than reloading. It is what they did with crossbows, why wouldn't they have done it with this contraption had it existed. Heck it would likely have pre-dated the crossbow. They already had arrow jockeys distributing arrows to the archers and swapping broken bows/strings, why not have people to reload and hand-off a second bow?

[@solanumtinkr8280]

@@ShiningDarknes I know, right? If they had it, and used it, they'd have done it. If it's high draw, then in pairs one loads, one fires, switch...

[@jrs4516]

watching the side by side reminded me of playing RDR2 a few years ago. specifically the sprigfield rifle vs repeaters. because the springfield single shot reload animation was so fast it was almost as good as having a repeater if you were an accurate shot and you would never heave a down time to reload a magazine. with it's power and cheap price it's the best gun in the game.

[@chriswolfe403]

in terms of usefulness, I think a last consideration of many of Jeorg's videos is achieving a formidable home defense weapon in the face of German gun laws.

[@cired1236]

Awesome stuff :) What about a heavy, emplaced variety to make up for the poundage loss? Mount the bow horizontally, magazine up, on a tripod or directly to a wall. Can row back with both arms while a second person reloads. Using a rowing motion, maybe using your legs too, seems like you could basically have a rapid fire ballista.

[@Sypher474]

Joerg Sprave is an absolute legend! KZbin royalty as far as I'm concerned

[@Slingshotchannel]

Wow! Thanks.

[@alexsawicki]

There's 3 potential "practical" uses for this type of bow that Tod maybe overlooked a little: 1) VIP protection in the Medieval and even early Renaissance period. 2) Hunting/exterminating predators and other dangerous/aggressive game (thing things like mountain lions, wolves, bears and even wild boars) in either earlier periods or in the modern period... Also, potentially useful for hunting small groups of animals (think geese or other medium-sized birds that group together...). 3) This isn't a "real world" application, but: Medieval style fantasy, as a "hero weapon". I really think the the VIP protection is where these types of bows would be the most practical. As a VIP, you wouldn't want that many guards... But, you're also not expecting a large number of attackers. There's no doubt that a repeating bow increases the close and medium range firepower and accuracy of the bow. Cost isn't as much of a concern, because you are arming a small number of guards and you're a VIP... So you have the money. I could see the repeating bow working exceptionally well from on top of castle defenses. I could see it working well to cover the retreat of a noble or prince or king. The "burst fire" is more desirable when you're outnumbered... Which might be the case in VIP protection. For hunting particularly dangerous and aggressive game: It's funny, because I'm specifically thinking of the wild boar in the US. There are HUGE herds of boar (50 to even 100). They're about the same size as humans... And they're highly aggressive and dangerous. You shoot at the herd of boar, and the rest of the herd is just going to charge you and your hunting party. In that situation, having a burst of fire, to kill as many as possible as quickly as possible, even if the sustained fire rate is about the same, is highly valuable. Also, in that kind of situation, you might not be as worried about "hunting" (as in gathering the meat) as you are in just killing the boar to make a nearby town safer. I'd imagine the same might be true for packs of wolves. The point is: for hunting, the higher rate of fire is more useful when the animal is aggressive, rather then skittish, and when it's large groups of animals, rather then a single animal. For fantasy: If the having the hero be the only person (or one of the only people) with this "advanced" repeating weapon can explain why that hero has an advantage in combat. You could have something like a medieval version of Batman... Where having the best equipment possible for the time period is a defining aspect of the hero.

[@NetVoyagerOne]

If I were the head of a medieval mercenary company, I'd have a small group of guys, maybe a dozen or so, whose specialization would be to use these. Perfect to protect a VIP or valuable cargo on the road, or in any defensive capacity. It'd be like a modern machine gun user in modern militaries. That's his whole thing, that weapon system.

[@samurilegends1889]

I always thought it'd be a neat idea for self defense of say your home in the modern age without a extremely loud bang or if your against owning guns. Yes guns work, and they work well. But an arrow also works. And it gives you a few shots quickly.

[@SkandsKvist]

The instant Legolas could make a difference from horse back, where you ride in and shoot your arrows and then out again. Could also be used from ramparts where you could shoot your magazine and then rotate out and let someone else shoots, just like they did with the first rifles .

[@Halinspark]

I think the best use for it might not be scaling it down, but rather scaling it up. I bet that would be really funny on some ballista if you could keep enough ammo on hand. It's already a crew served weapon, so adding a couple handholds for two guys to cycle it quickly is less of an issue. Still not sure how actually useful it would be, but I also haven't taken part in any sieges in a long time.

[@Tone-def]

cheers Tod can't wait for the film to come out. Its gonna sound alot more clunky for sure.

[@jamesj4827]

Been excited to see this one after the teaser on FB

[@dannywastaken]

If you had a medieval SWAT team, forest ambush or Red Wedding situation, there might be a very situational use case where a smaller force would want to get off many shots before a larger defending force can get their weapons out or close the distance to you. I'd put this up there with breaching shotguns, flamethrowers and very situational specialist tools like that Reivers bow you made a video about. No army today equips everyone with flamethrowers even if they do look very cool.

[@Penfoldblue1]

Brilliant video, loved it. Thanks

[@aspiringmarauder666]

That part with several Joes rapid firing made me laugh

Great. Now I want an archery based Matrix Movie ! :)

[@xidarian]

I think as a specialty weapon for mounted archers might be useful. Probably wouldn't outweigh the negatives still but the idea of mounted archers with these riding in and unleashing a bunch of arrows quickly then riding away to reload and repeat.

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

It would make an EXCELLENT MARAUDER'S weapon! The idea of popping up out from under cover in a crowd and getting the jump on a squad of the king's guards is JUST EXACTLY what this kind of weapon is good for! Even if you ditched it as soon as you emptied it, IF you can hit a whole lot of them, even if not fatally, unless they too are archers, you'll have free reign to duck under cover of the throng and beat a hasty retreat. Admittedly, if the weapon is super expensive, and it is the only one around, its not likely you would want to just discard it. If anything, making it where it can collapse and take up a lot less space for stealth [both before and after the attack] for not only space savings, but so you can slip into the darkness without this huge bulky item that can get snagged on everything and lead you to being apprehended [and beheaded]. Something that can smoothly be opened up, with minimal noise [no rackety-clackety snap-latches like a switch-blade knife, for instance, since that would give you away before you could get into a firing position] but with sprung parts [tensioned twine, steel springs or the likes] so that with one swift move it would be able to COLLAPSE in an instant, without any fiddly fumbling while you are trying to put as much distance between you and your adversary as possible. When collapsing it, when the element of surprise is long since spent, the noise of springs would not be so much of an issue, especially if people in the crowd were screaming and shouting, horns blaring and whatnot. So...plenty of arrows in the magazine, one chance, no need for a reloader, a silent opening, and a speedy closing, as compact overall and possible, and possibly super fine points with poison, in case you need to penetrate mail, gambesons, leather shields [pretty much anything other than plate mail or plate armor], LOADS of practice at popping up from cover [under a tarp, behind hay bales, fruit carts or animals, maybe even from inside of a box, right in the middle of them at almost point blank range

[@tods_workshop]

I think popping out from a crown unseen is not likely carrying that lump of hardware.......

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

@@tods_workshop That is why I said it has to be collapsible.

[@noplaynofun7869]

one thing i think this would work well is herass enemy from horseback as they marsh to the battlefeild, 10 horse archers or more riding around the line try to hurt in bursts the enemy line.

[@another3997]

I'm inclined to believe that had the instant legolas been invented back then, archers and the way bows were used in warfare would have adapted to suit it. Imagine each archer using one bow whilst another archer reloaded a second one, ready to swap bows at a moments notice. For suppressive fire, that would have been formidable. Even better, when the first archer gets tired, he and the loader can swap places. Fewer archers shooting at any one time, but actually launching more arrows per minute, and for twice as long.

[@derskalde4973]

I'm not quite convinced that they wouldn't have used this in some form. One of the very first things I thought of when I first saw Jörg showing his idea, was about reloading it. I think, this would probably have introduced the job of something like a "feeding squire", where the Archer emptied the magazine, handing the bow to this squire in exchange for a loaded bow, while the squire refills the first one, with this rotation consisting of two, maybe three, bows per Archer. And about people not being familiar with these, the same goes for firearms before they were shown how to use them.

[@chrisball3778]

I can see it having niche applications in war or civilian self-defence, a bit like the Chinese repeating crossbow. It could be given to skirmishers for hit and run attacks, or a version of the gunpowder-era 'Caracole' tactic where cavalry would advance to fire and retreat to reload in a continuous circle. Also, in point defence situations, where a limited number of shooting positions were available (e.g. arrow loops on castles), a small number of defenders could lay down a heavy barrage to deter an attack and could be assisted by a loader with a spare weapon.

[@EnRandomSten]

I feel like there would be an opportunity to scale this contraption up to say a Scorpion och even ballista size. Sure you get into the questions of how practical those weapons were in the first place but I feel like those who found them practical would appreciate a magazine feature like this.

[@MonkeysEmperor]

Watching this feels like a serotonin overdose

[@thefatefulforce8887]

As always fantastic video. My DnD brain though likes to work overtime on these contraptions. It Might not be for warfare, but it might just work for bodyguards protecting VIPs if you can craft them compact enough to navigate indoors and confined areas to protect from multiple attackers. But a small repeating xbow might be even better 😊. Stopping power in that capacity changes bc it would not be needed to penetrate and significant armour and sharp broadheads will easily defeat even gambeson with pretty light poundage’s.

[@Kensuke0987]

I think in warfare, they would have been good enough at shooting high volume of arrows with less troops - probably enough to get the levies to rout. After the burst volley and their magazines empty, the archers would temporarily withdraw, safe from return fire. They don't particularly need the high rate of fire over a long period of time. They just have to do that burst volley. I think they would have made great skirmishers.

[@Dragowolf_Rising]

Other people have said it already but having a line of archers using these and rotating their positions like you would with muskets could have had military application in defensive actions. Consider a space where only a handful of men can stand abreast. The front line fires, let's the next group step up and fire, starts reloading and by the time group three has unloaded, group one is back to the front to unload another volley.

[@animistchannel]

Valid points, but the Instant Legolas is for exactly what Legolas did it for: close-order combat with a ranged weapon. That's where it matters, and that's where it works. It's a kick-squad weapon, where a sudden flurry is enough to tip the balance.

[@tods_workshop]

Good point and well put - thanks

[@briancox2721]

One possible martial use would be to allow those who don't shoot often, such as women, to participate in siege defense. Several dozen women firing arrows rapid fire from instant legolas would probably have a large enough suppressive effect to help other soldiers start a breakout. Admittedly a very limited use that may rely on changes in doctrine and social norms from medieval custom.

[@ArniesTech]

Love your collaborations. ❤

[@paulpiche8370]

For fun, but I could also see it being an interesting weapon for like a bodyguard or something. If you need to lay down the law quickly with some shock and awe, it could put assailants on the run instantly.

[@kensmith5694]

A military use would only exist for the "hidden archer" case where when he breaks cover, he needs to loose a bunch of arrows and then gt the heck out of there. In that sort of case do 4 quickly and then running away makes sense.

[@connalmaccon1652]

I feel, that fun is a often overlooked reason in shooting. Especially when it comes to shooting clubs here. Its all (or 90%) about sport and performance.

[@JulienB]

Don't forget home defence that's where it would shine in the modern day. Short range, doesn't over penetrate walls, but will go through kevlar. Won't deafen you when shot indoors. Legal in a lot of places where other firearms aren't.

[@michiganengineer8621]

Exactly, home defense in a place like Great Britain or Germany where it's nearly impossible for the average Joe or Jane to legally own a firearm.

[@Minty1337]

it would be good home defense regardless of time period, similar magazine crossbows existed in china in the 1200s-1400s (i dont remember) and they were almost exclusively used for home defense

[@niklasriva7053]

you might live in a mansion, that have long corridors and stuff, but not people does not have that, there are corners everywhere

[@Minty1337]

@@niklasriva7053 not even rich people have mansions big enough to have hallways long enough to outrange one of these bows, and even if you did, then sure you miss the first shot, but now you know you're not in range and you get closer for the next shot. with a magazine, you can take shots without as much risk since you have another arrow ready.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@Minty1337 I believe the point was the opposite. if your opponent is only a few feet away you're not going to be able to hit them with a bow since they'll just charge you and knock it aside. the long hallways would be what allows you to actually take shots.

[@W4iteFlame]

Thanks for showing us all those features

[@aaronyoung8301]

I know it's not European and used a different bow and style, but Lars Anderson is known to use a thumb draw and hold the arrows in the draw hand in a way that makes knocking and drawing was a fluid motion. I'm not saying the longbow should've been done like that, but I am saying it's possible to send arrows down range fast without needing a bulky device that's uses a bunch of moving parts

[@sharkforce8147]

I think it would still be used in war, just not as a full-on replacement for the regular longbow. It would be for a very specific purpose. For example, I could imagine archers on a defensive wall with 2 or 3 bows that have magazines, to be used in the event of a full-scale assault to quickly throw a lot of arrows at a group of charging attackers. And then they'd have to switch to something else, because there's no way you can rapid fire for hours on end anyways.

[@robin98464]

Still love the whole idea and concept of the Instant Legolas. Also might be usefull for mounted archers when going up against more stationary enemies. Like ride up to their line, shoot until the magazine is empty, ride back, reload, reapead. That way you couldnt get shot back at with the same ammount of arrows from normal archers. Also not to sure if it would really have been that practical in real warfare.

[@hraefn1821]

Imagine if Jorg got a sponsorship deal to feature his bow in Green Arrow movie or something. XD Cuz it does look amazingly cool for action sequences.