Multi shot bows - FUN

A few years ago I made a medieval style multi shot magazine system for a medieval longbow and got my friend Joe Gibbs to try it out with a 120lbs longbow to see if it could have, would have changed history and now I compare it to a modern version by EK Archery and try to decide if they are any good for war, hunting or target.
I have my thoughts, but I also find out it is rather good fun.......
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[@whirving]

Last year, just for fun, I bought a replica Mongolian style recurve bow. It has been about 35 years since I've shot a bow regularly, and once I got that bow I was out in the yard 3 days a week. Shocking how much came back since, but also shocking how inconsistent I am, but its fun. I blame Tod's channel.

[@tods_workshop]

Blame away!

[@nokta7373]

I blame Tod too, got me into archery as well. Been shooting for a couple years now and it's all his fault lol.

[@PsihoKekec]

Can't go wrong with following up on Jörg's madness.

[@klondikechris]

Tod has a great approach to looking at this serious side of ancient weapons. He is careful, and methodical in his research. But, some of his best videos are where he is just having fun!

[@darwinism8181]

Jörg's laugh is great and deserves such prominent featuring

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

It's one of the most wholesome sounds in the universe.

[@JeffreyOller]

Let us hear its features! HAHAHAHA!

[@jamesmayes4351]

Wow its really been 4 years since the medieval Legolas?

[@Keiranful]

Yep, that's what I thought as well.

[@steevee4610]

Lockdown longbow doesn't feel that long ago...time flies!

[@GilgameshEthics]

Time definitely seems wild as you get older

[@Quadstriker]

This channel was part of my lockdown viewing. Yeah... four years wow.

[@LeonM4c]

Jeeezz man.....time marches on

[@ShiningDarknes]

A second person like a servant or squire could reload a second bow for you while you are loosing your 5 arrows, that would sort the issue out and give you a nearly continuous stream of arrows at that about 2-4x the rate of a bow without the magazine. The benefit of always having the same anchor point between all archers makes training archers to hit the same ranges much simpler, basically these could have been the gap-fill between bow and crossbow.

[@tods_workshop]

Nice points - thanks

[@llamatronian101]

That second person could also hand arrows to the regular archer. Probably placing then just where the archer can grab them for their next shot. That would reduce or remove the gap.

[@freestatefellow]

I could see some flash Italian noble springing for one or two of these for a bodyguard as a way of showing off to his mates.

[@terrenusvitae]

This looks very similar to an Eatern Roman device called the Solenarion, which shot large numbers of very small arrows, or darts (I think in the contemporary venacular they were called 'flies'), a very long distance. The key I believe was outpacing the enemy and forcing the enemy to advance or retreat from the field.

[@nokta7373]

Your videos, Jorg videos and a bunch of other brothers of the sword videos are what finally convinced me to try out archery myself. So I joined a local club and have been shooting regularly for about 2 years now and I freaking love it. I bet many did like I did. So thank you Tod, your always cheerful attitude and knowledgeable insights are rare and precious. Also the only channel on youtube I don't skip the promotional stuff because you manage to make them fun too lol. Cheers my man.

[@robo5013]

The biggest problem I see with the repeating bow mechanism on campaign would be durability. Since it is made mostly, if not entirely, out of wood, marching with it under different weather conditions with every part constantly expanding and contracting due to temperature and moisture variations would very quickly make it inoperable.

[@Seelenschmiede]

Laquer, oil, wax, pitch, loincloth sacks...

[@tods_workshop]

I am with robo. water gets everywhere as does moisture and things would swell, however I did make all the slides with bone which would help the slider at least

[@MartinGreywolf]

Forget about the weather, you worst enemy would be the people using them. Soldiers aren't exactly famous for treating their gear with delicate care, and it takes only one instance of haphazardly stacking a bunch of these on a wagon before something breaks. These are the same people who were known for sawing bits off of their pikes so that they would be easier to carry, after all.

[@johnfisk811]

@@MartinGreywolf I have seen what modern squaddies can do to abuse modern steel small arms so complicated wooden ones stand no chance on campaign.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

They were used in the Korean navy artillery sized versions where lots of moisture is exposed

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

The medieval use I could see is ambush, hit and run. Have 5 men sneak up on an enemy, unload 5 arrows each in rapid succession before they can react, then high tail it out of there before they know what happened. Especially for skirmishes, I could see the use. Not for a full battlefield, but don't under estimate skirmish weapons.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

It would mask your numbers, too. Make the enemy think there are way more shooters.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

Also, this has a great burst capability. If you and your mates are shooting at a bunch of French knights charging across a field, you have a much beter window of opportunity to hit a guy quickly, score a good hit, and move on to another. You're only going to get so many volleys off. And a knight can only block/dodge/withstand so many hits. Plus the psychological impact of so many physical impacts...

[@dawidouss6333]

Yeah, but what if you failed in running. Now you have a bow you can't shoot with and how will you defend? If you want to shoot fast, just learn how to shoot fast with a regular bow. Additionally your bow with a magazine is much heavier.

[@skylerstevens8887]

Also you can always pass a bow that is loaded on a wall. It also can be reloaded under cover instead of at the wall where you would shoot. You could even have non warriors assist like women or youths while still keeping them relatively safe. This also means that you need fewer archers other soldiers can assist with loading while waiting for the enemy to come into melee range.

[@MrMartinSchou]

I think the "reloading is slow" is a fallacy, because that could easily be solved with helpers. One or two dedicated young boys per shooter, depending on just how fast they can get with reloading. It took Tod 10 seconds to shoot 4 arrows and 22 seconds to reload. Assume the same speed for a dedicated reloader, and two reloaders can keep the archer fed for as long as the archer has stamina for it. Now the 8 shots are down to 20 seconds + swapping out the bow. Let's say 25 seconds. And in reality, there's a very good chance that reloading could be much faster. If that's all you're doing for several hours a day for a year, you're going to figure out how to load in 4 arrows at a time, even without a speedloader.

[@robo5013]

Then you would have to feed two non-combatants for every archer. Imagine at a battle such as Agincourt; instead of having 7000 archers the English would have only had 2300 while still having to feed 7000 people.

[@YouTube.Is.Run.By.Terrorists]

I was thinking almost the same thing, but with all archers. 3 rows of archers all loading their own arrows, the front row would let their 4 arrows loose, immediately about face, then walk to the back of the formation to reload their arrows. They get 2 rows ahead of them before it's their turn to let the arrows fly again. Gives each archer a few seconds between each volley to maintain stamina through a long engagement. It would be a constant conga line of arrows. 😂

[@colorpg152]

@@robo5013 but they did it with crossbows and it worked so why not these bows?

[@99Plastics]

@@colorpg152 Crossbows offered higher power, this offers less. It was the price of knowing a crossbow bolt would do it's job. This would't.

[@robo5013]

@@colorpg152 As far as I know European crossbowmen reloaded their own weapons.

[@PadanGedowitch]

One flaw of the speed comparison is his shooting stile. If he would shoot the arrows from the outside he wouldn't waste time lowering the bow. On the other side the opening of the legolas is big enough, he could line up the arrows in his hand and load them all at one.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

They already exist in history including full draw length repeating bows such as the Korean repeating crossbow and chu repeater. None of these changed warfare because archers can already shoot similar speeds

[@grim4this]

I think you may have missed something. Archers could shoot at similar ( maybe even faster ) speeds because they were trained and skilled. A peasant can shoot one of these, as they lock on full draw removing any preasure, you can now aim without any fatigue, doesnt matter to a trained archer matters a lot to someone battling to hold the string back. This is why shit rifles were used, think of a muzzle loader vrs a skilled archer, archer wins by lots, so why did we use muzzle loaders?. It takes weeks not years to train riflemen. In fact archers ( highly trained asset of the army ) stood behind armour, but with rifles people can be replaced so quick we just lined them up out front and said shoot. Did we get them to back up when the enemy charged, no we just told them to stick a knife on the end and charge back, can always replace those men in a week or two, skilled archers on the other hand take years and small weak men couldn't be trained? Also, and this may just be hollywood infecting my mind, but they shot in waves for full effect ( fear and damage ) but huge wave of arrows, gap, huge wave of arrows, gap can sort of be timed, would it not of confused the hell out of the enemy if their was almost no gap between waves, as I said tho this may be based more on movies then anything else.

[@undefined40]

Well, have an engineering challenge for you. Build it with replaceable magazines. That way, you can have two or three preloaded magazines at hand.

[@phale426]

The rapid fire aspect is indeed the fun part, but I think the actually game-changing part of the design is the slider/hold mechanism. It essentially replicates the consistent draw, release, and hold functionality of the crossbow, drastically reducing training requirements, without nerfing rate of fire as a crossbow would. I'd imagine that a single-shot version that just uses the slider/hold mechanism would have been the true history changer, in the same way that crossbows were in real life. Especially considering the practical limitations of stamina and logistics when it comes to repeating bows.

[@ShiningDarknes]

Indeed, the consistent hold point would make massed volleys far less variable. Really what this would have brought is that niche the crossbow ended up being, a far easier for an untrained person to learn faster than a normal longbow. SO you mix in your seasoned longbowmen using higher poundage with these lesser bowmen using a lower poundage but consistent draw length and suddenly you get suppressive fire and penetrative fire thus further causing chaos in the enemy line because some of the arrows are mostly harmless to anyone with a shield or decent armor but some of the arrows deeply penetrate the shield and armor. But yeah its place would have been perhaps as a training tool or for additional fire potentially even used for a more mixed army to quickly let off 4-5 arrows before swapping to a shield and polearm to form a shield wall to meet what is left of the enemy's advance. Or perhaps you have a squire load up a SECOND bow while you are loosing from the first one, then hand you the reloaded bow, and repeat? Eh? Now THAT fixes the reloading issue, they don't need speed loaders, the idea of having battlefield servants or squires to hand you shit was already a thing and later when crossbows became a thing especially for sieges each crossbowman would have at least 2 crossbows so they could line up a shot and loose then have another ready to go and have a second person reloading for them. A second person is literally the solution, not a fancy speed loader.

[@phale426]

@@ShiningDarknes The real limiting factor is stamina, not reloading. These aren't firearms, they are entirely human powered. Multiple war weight draws in rapid succession gets tiring extremely fast. Reloading actually gives you time for your muscles to rest. If you're going to have two people and two bows anyway, it makes far more sense to distribute the drawing effort between both of them instead of concentrating all the effort on one. (Sure you could argue that the reloading guy doesn't need to be trained as much, but we've already established that slider mechanism reduces training requirements so why not have him shoot too?)

[@ShiningDarknes]

@@phale426 Then add a third guy into the mix. One guy lets loos their magazine, steps back to reload while another guy steps up and a third guy who had previously just stepped back to start reloading as about half way done reloading, repeat. Now you have 3 archers cycling fire and each have about 20ish seconds of rest between volleys.

[@timothy545]

@@phale426 You have a point about the exhaustion factor. If I was an all powerful medieval person, subject to his kings whims, I would want two of them one left hand one right so that my boy could reload for me and I would be able to swap hands each salvo this would promote balanced muscle growth in the arms and could increase endurance by as much as 2x. About the second point though, I believe that my boy in this scenario would actually be my boy (my Sun/Daughter). No muscle would be needed to reload so a child could do it. Although I think its features would shine more in a home defense situation where there is a greater chance of only having one or very few strong men around to defend you from other strong men trying to invade your home.

[@calsalitra4689]

I'm not so sure. Crossbows were valuable not only because they were easy to aim and load, but also because they had significantly lessened strength requirements. You don't need to be Joe Gibbs to load and fire a crossbow, but you do need to be Joe Gibbs to fire a 120 lbs magazine-fed bow.

[@AccessAccess]

One potential use is that they shoot what are basically crossbow bolts, and do so significantly faster than a normal crossbow can shoot them. Crossbow bolts have shorter shafts and hence take less material, easier to produce en masse than war arrows and you may already have a large number on hand if your army makes use of crossbowmen already.

[@tabull8180]

Crossbows greatest strenghts are power and ease of use, neither which this has. Comparing it to crossbow is therefore pretty pointless, though maybe using the bolts is still good option.

[@EpicOfChillgamesh]

I love that Tod can be totally practical with his analysis and still admit... this thing is fun!

[@silverbladeTE]

The Chinese "Cho Ko Nu" repeating crossbow *was* used in war...of a specific type. For URBAN or ambush work, a fast light repeater is perfect. In defence, assistants can hand you a loaded weapon quickly Hit & run raiders, fending off infiltrators, naval combat (where few wear heavy armour), generally enemies with little armour etc, such devices are valid :)

[@Just_A_Dude]

Sounds about right. Kinda the medieval equivalent of an SMG.

[@silverbladeTE]

@@Just_A_Dude Exactly! :)

[@jancello]

@@silverbladeTE Except that due to the intense hand-to-hand combat that they entail, boarding actions on the contrary often imply heavy armour (by the standards of any relevant era)

[@silverbladeTE]

@@jancello The presence of the *sea* suggests otherwise ;)

[@FireStormOOO_]

@@jancello The distinction between the sailor and marine contingent also muddies the water some; they're often equipped differently depending on the place and time we're talking about.

[@riku861]

The disadvantage of needing to reload it is overcome by how they used to use muskets in war; shoot, line falls back to reload, next line comes, shoots, repeat. Or they have dedicated reloaders. Of course the durability of such a mechanism is the more glaring issue, but on paper, it could have been used in war quite effectively.

[@thejackscraft3472]

kind of, Muskets were an increase in the power of the weapon, to the point of being able to punch through armor, so the downsides were worth it. with this you could just have more archers and get a better effect, the same firerate but stronger bows, for less cost.

[@metern]

You forgot to add the tap at the fron that uses the index finger to hold the draw. Then, you don't need the muscles to hold the draw with the arm holding the string. You can even release the string hand because of that tap 😉. Joerg pointed out that that tap is important to make shootong a heavy longbow earlier.

[@solanumtinkr8280]

A medieval Instant legolass may have found it's place in urban combat, where you can pre-tension it to fire, whip out, shoot and duck back in... or take a fair few rapid shots then duck for cover... It would have had it's uses...There was not as much "urban" back then, but that just shows you where and who could be using it. 40 lb compound is mid range as it currently tops out at 70.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

Medieval carriage defense. Some bandits tried to burgle the queen’s carriage quickly get filled full of bolts. Stop a party trying to board your ship

[@yajurka]

I think on the battlefield as well - but in certain scenarios. Two I think specifically: Against lightly armored charge (both infantry and cavalry): doesn't matter if reloading is slow if you can only take a few shots before dropping a bow and engaging in melee - why not fire more before that happens? Not sure it would work against heavily armored charge, though. In siege: Duck out of cover, release everything, get back to safe spot and reload in peace. It's especially good because you don't have to look down at your bow in between shots, meaning you can focus on target all the time. Oh, and not to mentions once breach has been made for holding choke points and thigh corridors. Wouldn't want to push when you see five guys with this on the opposite end of hallway. Also, if they transferred this technology into ballista, it would lose most of it's disadvantages and keep advantages.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Heavier compound bows exist, though they're quite rare. Kevin Strother claimed to hunt with 130-150lb compound bows.

[@ShiningDarknes]

What I am seeing everyone miss is the simple addition of a servant or squire reloading a second bow+magazine. Remember switching to your second weapon is faster than reloading. It is what they did with crossbows, why wouldn't they have done it with this contraption had it existed. Heck it would likely have pre-dated the crossbow. They already had arrow jockeys distributing arrows to the archers and swapping broken bows/strings, why not have people to reload and hand-off a second bow?

[@solanumtinkr8280]

@@ShiningDarknes I know, right? If they had it, and used it, they'd have done it. If it's high draw, then in pairs one loads, one fires, switch...

[@Harry-x4n]

Thrilled to see you step infront of the bow and demonstrate avoidance. Hope they were blunted or rubber or something for your safety but I've been thinking that's something missing from a lot of the debates is examples of what all of this is like for the target. An actual living breathing target. Not a mock up. Safety is paramount so I imagine it's quite the difficult task. Thanks for the film Tod.

[@JulienB]

Don't forget home defence that's where it would shine in the modern day. Short range, doesn't over penetrate walls, but will go through kevlar. Won't deafen you when shot indoors. Legal in a lot of places where other firearms aren't.

[@michiganengineer8621]

Exactly, home defense in a place like Great Britain or Germany where it's nearly impossible for the average Joe or Jane to legally own a firearm.

[@Minty1337]

it would be good home defense regardless of time period, similar magazine crossbows existed in china in the 1200s-1400s (i dont remember) and they were almost exclusively used for home defense

[@niklasriva7053]

you might live in a mansion, that have long corridors and stuff, but not people does not have that, there are corners everywhere

[@Minty1337]

@@niklasriva7053 not even rich people have mansions big enough to have hallways long enough to outrange one of these bows, and even if you did, then sure you miss the first shot, but now you know you're not in range and you get closer for the next shot. with a magazine, you can take shots without as much risk since you have another arrow ready.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@Minty1337 I believe the point was the opposite. if your opponent is only a few feet away you're not going to be able to hit them with a bow since they'll just charge you and knock it aside. the long hallways would be what allows you to actually take shots.

[@davewarrender2056]

These weapons are the medieval version of a light machine gun. Fixed on swivel mount , on the ramparts or in a tower , two men , operator, and loader

[@steelwasp9375]

You can put a draw assist to shoot beyond your max poundage. It's modular. It's easy to use. You can hold fire. You can have a backup to double your output for the first minute. Or a squadmate in cover to reload. For a battleground with limited space, such as alleyways, windows, battlements, it doubles unit power density for as long as the shooter's stamina allows, and they can switch. Sounds ideal for tactical engagements. Maybe not medieval spetsnaz, but an ambush using those is going to be decisive. Perfect for an adventurer, or a party of. Rangers, scouts, hit and run, flanking formations. In a skirmish, there are times where you only have a small window of opportunity to fire shots before the melee ensues. No need to fumble for an arrow, you have a few shots ready even if you can't see, or if your quiver is unavailable. Is it an upgrade? Heck yeah. Is it useful for war? Heck yeah. Is it good in the scenarios and background limitations Tod putting it through? Nope. It feels like Tod tries to fit it in the idea of medieval brits, not thinking how it would change medieval brits. Besides, the stage is a lot bigger than that little rainy island. It's a weapon. It's effective. So the problem of manufacturing, supplying, and training... is not a problem. Last thing you know, it's a standard across the continent, with the new variations popping up here and there. Anywhere there are bows, there's no reason not to have the Instant Legolas, if at least as a supplementary unit. It definitely has it's use. Would it revolutionize combat? Change history? It's a bow. With a mag and aim assist, yes, but it's a bow. Bows or swords don't write history. Neither do guns or spaceships. The people who come up with it do. It, being bows, guns, and history itself. History is ever changing. Because it's just a story. It is no more, or it is not yet. It exists within the people's minds, and it changes as their view of it changes.

[@sangomasmith]

I think people keep misunderstanding how bows were used in warfare - probably due to all the hagiography around the longbow. A bow was not a battle winning weapon, it was a battlefield shaping weapon. Ranged weapons didn't become able to stop or scatter formations of men by themselves until the invention of the cartridge. So, on a battlefield, the extra firepower provided by the magazine still isn't going to allow you to knock over formations. Instead, you'd be better served by carrying an equivalent weight of extra arrows - more arrows means more ability to harry and disrupt the enemy before they make contact with your lines.

[@tods_workshop]

Nice - thanks

[@ShiningDarknes]

Citation needed.

[@sangomasmith]

​@@ShiningDarknes check out posts by Bret Devereaux on the topic.

[@ShiningDarknes]

@@sangomasmith posts? Can you be more specific, when I look him up I just get collections of all his posts which no, I am not sorting through just to find the stuff about bows. I saw a Lego star destroyer and stopped looking because clearly the posts cover far too many topics for me to blindly try to find one.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@ShiningDarknes literally just add the word "Bow" to a google search of his name and you can find a pretty detailed article incredibly easily. just looking up someone's name and expecting to find info on a specific topic is generally a terrible idea.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Darn that thing does look like fun, though colour me old fashioned I do like the medieval style one more... Also "The guy in the street didn't have that" comments I'd argue is somewhat but only somewhat wrong - Crossbow, ballista etc did and have existed along with many other more mechanical intricacies many of them would have experienced in their day to day lives. So even back then without nearly as much (if any) real education many folks on the street probably would know enough to recognise and have some ideas on potential fixes for most of the problems even if the language to describe a 'magazine jam' wasn't common parlance. Similar problems would have been encountered before by most of them I'd suggest.

[@tods_workshop]

I think I made my point badly and thanks for pulling me up. I suppose what I meant was that yes there were higher technology weapons and groups, but the average archer was not in that area and his weapon of choice is about as simple as you can get

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

@@tods_workshop Ah, you meant really more an argument along the lines of 'Don't fix what isn't broken' or 'Familiarity with a tool is more important than flashy features as long as the old tool works well enough'. Both of which would apply very well, the bendy stick is certainly effective, and the average archer of the period would be very well practised with it.

[@tods_workshop]

Yes I did and well put thanks

[@Vazlist]

I love it when Joe is part of the videos

[@Dang_Near_Fed_Up]

I could see the multishot bow being used by archers on top of a castle wall. You step out from behind a crenelation take 4 to 6 shots, then duck back behind the crenelation to reload possibly before the first bolt hit the ground or an invader. This would maximize the capability of a small defensive force inside a prepared defensive structure. Lesser range would be offset partially by the added height of the wall. And you could have multiple bows prepared and ready behind different crenelations allowing for a higher rate of fire. You merely hand off the empty to an assistant, child, or whatever to reload while you move to the next firing point and bow to continue to lay down fire. 1 archer would seem as a small army using this tactic.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and yes it could have application as you say, but in a siege resources count and 'spray and pray' would be tricky to sustain.

[@Dang_Near_Fed_Up]

@@tods_workshop I agree spray and pray would be an issue. I was thinking more in terms of dealing with a manpower shortage for the defenders against a larger offensive force. Say that most of the men were called up to act as an offensive force for the King elsewhere, leaving the women, children, and elderly behind with barely a token defensive force, and then vikings slipped in behind the lines of the war where the men were fighting.

[@funkyschnitzel]

While you showed that one man firing the instant legolas including a reload is similar to the same man with a normal bow, this doesn't account for the possibility of ranks. If you had two ranks of men with magazine equipped bows, you could have the ranks swap to allow for reloads. This would allow for near constant firing at the higher rate allowed by the magazine. You'd need twice as many men, but could get more than twice the rate of fire.

[@keganjones9063]

Agreed about the fun factor. I can't keep the Ballestrino you made for me down for very long without needing to shoot it again into a target on the other side of my home office room.

[@MarcusVance]

I gotta get one of those.

[@roqua]

12:25 This is a great video and I like your channel. For future shots like this, I'd recommend figuring out how to get enough contrast between arrows and background so that the wheeling-n-dealing half dozen shots on different targets becomes visible as something other than your slow spinning and a "thwack" on the target boards. Fluorescing shafts, phosphorus tracers, micro-LEDs, painting arrows blue or green and chroma-keying them to a solid line of the flightpath in a composite shot. There are probably more ways a film SFX / VFX pro has to contrast arrows than night shoots with flaming arrows 😆Thanks for the upload 🙏

[@kensmith5694]

A military use would only exist for the "hidden archer" case where when he breaks cover, he needs to loose a bunch of arrows and then gt the heck out of there. In that sort of case do 4 quickly and then running away makes sense.

[@maryrose2676]

One thing I think you missed with the instant legolas is a fixed weapon emplacement, like a machine gun nest. Joe Gibbs might not be able to use all his muscles with the instant legolas, but a crew-served instant legolas might easily do it all day. 300lb instant legolas warbow nest? Anyone?

[@nickdavis5420]

Yeah I kinda thought that and you could do a crazy volume so eventually you just hit someone in the face .

[@townwitchdoctor5538]

The Koreans used scaled up repeating crossbows during the Imjin war on their ships. There's a video on youtube called "Large Korean Repeating Crossbow" showing a replica.

[@smirkza]

I asked about this the last time he made a video about the instant legolass, but sadly I don't think he saw the comment. It was where I mind went to the first time I saw it

[@maryrose2676]

@@townwitchdoctor5538 That's interesting indeed.

[@tuerkefechi]

Two of my favorite youtubers collaborating is just awesome. German and English Madness combined ;-)

[@zsDUGGZ]

If it existed in history, I feel like it would have been a massive game changer. I think the problem is giving these to trained archers when it would be much betteror untrained people. Like you said, people back then would likely be weirded out by the magazine, but it does offer advantages. The English had archery ingrained in their culture, so it would be a waste of time to transition them to the instant legolas. It would be better to give these to other countries that don't culturally train archery. The time to train someone to use an instant legolas would be much less than a bow. Not only that, the instant legolas can be comfortably held at full draw (for adjusting aim). It also allows you to use bows that are normally too heavy to draw normally. As for the reload time, you can see how much faster this is compared to say, a crossbow. I tend to compare this more to a crossbow than a bow because of the mechanical complexities, and my points is based off of giving these to untrained people.

[@tabull8180]

Why would this require the amount of strenght one needs to use it compared to regular bow?

[@Sirsethtaggart3505]

I always look forward to a vid from Tod.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks

[@Halinspark]

I think the best use for it might not be scaling it down, but rather scaling it up. I bet that would be really funny on some ballista if you could keep enough ammo on hand. It's already a crew served weapon, so adding a couple handholds for two guys to cycle it quickly is less of an issue. Still not sure how actually useful it would be, but I also haven't taken part in any sieges in a long time.

[@noplaynofun7869]

one thing i think this would work well is herass enemy from horseback as they marsh to the battlefeild, 10 horse archers or more riding around the line try to hurt in bursts the enemy line.

[@paulpiche8370]

For fun, but I could also see it being an interesting weapon for like a bodyguard or something. If you need to lay down the law quickly with some shock and awe, it could put assailants on the run instantly.

[@EpicOfChillgamesh]

Jörg and Tod... what a fantastic pair!

[@mandowarrior123]

Field battle it's not great, but castle defence when you're fighting over arrow slits it's brilliant, plus the height evens out the power. Horseback archery too is where I see it's benefit, to get an extra shot in during the pass. I think you're seeing it as a bow alternative not the rapid crossbow that it is. All your arguments are MORE true for crossbows. Plus any tension mechanism makes it stronger than a regular bow.

[@SkandsKvist]

The instant Legolas could make a difference from horse back, where you ride in and shoot your arrows and then out again. Could also be used from ramparts where you could shoot your magazine and then rotate out and let someone else shoots, just like they did with the first rifles .

[@mikurusagawa6897]

One thing I could see them working for is small scale ambushes, maybe attacking supply carts and stuff like that. Essentially what you've got with these, is for your couple of shots that you've got in the magazine, you have a firepower of much bigger group of men. And for ambush you'd be limited for how many men you can reliably hide, so for these first few seconds you'd have much greater firepower. And after you're empty you don't bother with reloading, you either charge in and finish the stragglers in melee, or if you don't think you've done enough damage, you run away before the enemy regroups.

[@thejackscraft3472]

you lower the number of men you can hide with this, since it's so large, and increase the chance of being caught before you spring your trap, since it's not a quiet piece of kit. if you're good with a bow you can still fire a couple shots from a normal bow before your targets really react, so it's not actually giving you enough to offset the downsides.

[@draegonspawn5361]

Said this before, but it eems like a calvary archer weapon. The casing reduces the arrow bouncing while on a moving horse. Ride into range, dump your mag and run away. Low poundage means you are needing for fire at the flank.

[@smirkza]

I still really, really want to see a seige version of this. A larger magazine, heavier weight bolts and draw, maybe drawn back by a lever mechanism or windlass device. With one loader recharging magazines and one gunner firing, I wonder how effective it could be at putting seriously unpleasant things down range?

[@W4iteFlame]

Thanks for showing us all those features

[@connalmaccon1652]

I feel, that fun is a often overlooked reason in shooting. Especially when it comes to shooting clubs here. Its all (or 90%) about sport and performance.

[@EnRandomSten]

I feel like there would be an opportunity to scale this contraption up to say a Scorpion och even ballista size. Sure you get into the questions of how practical those weapons were in the first place but I feel like those who found them practical would appreciate a magazine feature like this.

[@dannywastaken]

If you had a medieval SWAT team, forest ambush or Red Wedding situation, there might be a very situational use case where a smaller force would want to get off many shots before a larger defending force can get their weapons out or close the distance to you. I'd put this up there with breaching shotguns, flamethrowers and very situational specialist tools like that Reivers bow you made a video about. No army today equips everyone with flamethrowers even if they do look very cool.

[@michaelwoodby5261]

It would have been perfect for mounted archers. Get within range, fire off your magazine, retreat and reload.

[@ExecutionSommaire]

3:18 nice Matt moment. Agreed that if it was invented back in those days, its use would have been mainly for the fun of people able to afford it. You could also make the magazine way bigger, and use a thin high quality steel blade for the feeding spring. Next, I suggest trying to see if they could have built a practical compound bow ;)

[@MonkeysEmperor]

Watching this feels like a serotonin overdose

[@xidarian]

I think as a specialty weapon for mounted archers might be useful. Probably wouldn't outweigh the negatives still but the idea of mounted archers with these riding in and unleashing a bunch of arrows quickly then riding away to reload and repeat.

[@TheTraginator]

The only "prtactical use" for this bow, that i can think of, would be for a bodyguard type scenario. Much like the montante, it would probably allow one or two people to defend a target against multiple opponents. And if you're ambushed in an alley, you probably won't have time to reload anyway.

[@chrisball3778]

I can see it having niche applications in war or civilian self-defence, a bit like the Chinese repeating crossbow. It could be given to skirmishers for hit and run attacks, or a version of the gunpowder-era 'Caracole' tactic where cavalry would advance to fire and retreat to reload in a continuous circle. Also, in point defence situations, where a limited number of shooting positions were available (e.g. arrow loops on castles), a small number of defenders could lay down a heavy barrage to deter an attack and could be assisted by a loader with a spare weapon.

[@styxspeedrun]

that last montage showed a perfectly good usage for this kind of weapon in a fight though.. and looked cool!

[@noneofyourbusiness3288]

I feel like the real use of a magazine mechanism like this would have been on artillery. Some kind of field-artillery and siege engines. Combine the sliding mechanism with a hand-crank and what you get is kind of like an early Gatling gun.

[@sharkforce8147]

I think it would still be used in war, just not as a full-on replacement for the regular longbow. It would be for a very specific purpose. For example, I could imagine archers on a defensive wall with 2 or 3 bows that have magazines, to be used in the event of a full-scale assault to quickly throw a lot of arrows at a group of charging attackers. And then they'd have to switch to something else, because there's no way you can rapid fire for hours on end anyways.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

The Whipshot would be awesome if you had an obstacle course set up with dynamic targets.

[@michaelfox1432]

Joerg will love this.

[@Sk0lzky]

I'm a traditionalist as well, I love my "horsebows" but the idea of a "home defense rapid fire bow" is just so juicy I may give in and buy this monstrosity

[@garethvila5108]

When you compare the bow with the instant legolas it only looks like they're balanced in the total amount of shots because you didn't keep going. In your testing, you shoot 1 arrow every 5 seconds with the bow, including reloading time, while the instant legolas shoots 4 arrows in 10 seconds but takes another 20 to reload, which means on average it's shooting 1 arrow every 7,5 seconds, which is actually slower than the bow. In your test it looks like it's the same because you didn't reload after the second volley of the instant legolas. If you did, it would have taken another 20 seconds, which would mean the bow could shoot another 4 arrows. On the next 10 seconds after reloading, the instant legolas would match those 4, but meanwhile the bow could shoot another 2, keeping some advantage that would pile up over time. I'm not sure how much time would a medieval soldier be able to keep shooting, but I feel like it would be enough to, at least, have a certain advantage with the bow. I'm also assuming that even if a trained soldier could shoot faster than you, they would also be able to shoot faster with the instant legolas in the same proportion (like, if they shot twice as fast with the bow, I assume they may shoot twice as fast with the instant legolas). Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say you "cheated" or anything, as far as I know you're an honest guy, and it wouldn't make much sense to cheat in a test when you're actually saying this weapon wouldn't be useful. It just so happens that your test ended at the exact point where both amounts of arrows balance out, and I wanted to point that out.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and tbh I hadn't done the maths, but a fair point.

[@alexsawicki]

There's 3 potential "practical" uses for this type of bow that Tod maybe overlooked a little: 1) VIP protection in the Medieval and even early Renaissance period. 2) Hunting/exterminating predators and other dangerous/aggressive game (thing things like mountain lions, wolves, bears and even wild boars) in either earlier periods or in the modern period... Also, potentially useful for hunting small groups of animals (think geese or other medium-sized birds that group together...). 3) This isn't a "real world" application, but: Medieval style fantasy, as a "hero weapon". I really think the the VIP protection is where these types of bows would be the most practical. As a VIP, you wouldn't want that many guards... But, you're also not expecting a large number of attackers. There's no doubt that a repeating bow increases the close and medium range firepower and accuracy of the bow. Cost isn't as much of a concern, because you are arming a small number of guards and you're a VIP... So you have the money. I could see the repeating bow working exceptionally well from on top of castle defenses. I could see it working well to cover the retreat of a noble or prince or king. The "burst fire" is more desirable when you're outnumbered... Which might be the case in VIP protection. For hunting particularly dangerous and aggressive game: It's funny, because I'm specifically thinking of the wild boar in the US. There are HUGE herds of boar (50 to even 100). They're about the same size as humans... And they're highly aggressive and dangerous. You shoot at the herd of boar, and the rest of the herd is just going to charge you and your hunting party. In that situation, having a burst of fire, to kill as many as possible as quickly as possible, even if the sustained fire rate is about the same, is highly valuable. Also, in that kind of situation, you might not be as worried about "hunting" (as in gathering the meat) as you are in just killing the boar to make a nearby town safer. I'd imagine the same might be true for packs of wolves. The point is: for hunting, the higher rate of fire is more useful when the animal is aggressive, rather then skittish, and when it's large groups of animals, rather then a single animal. For fantasy: If the having the hero be the only person (or one of the only people) with this "advanced" repeating weapon can explain why that hero has an advantage in combat. You could have something like a medieval version of Batman... Where having the best equipment possible for the time period is a defining aspect of the hero.

[@aspiringmarauder666]

That part with several Joes rapid firing made me laugh

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

I was only just thinking there hasn’t been a Tod’s workshop vid for a while.

[@tods_workshop]

I have been rather busy, but have a few in the pipeline

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

@@tods_workshop Great to hear. I look forward to every one.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks

[@Minty1337]

i think these still have a use in (medieval) hunting or self defense. in hunting, they let you quickly get a second shot off if you missed the first one, which gives you a second chance. in self defense, range isn't important, and you only need enough power to subdue the home invader, and extra arrows in case you miss due to it being a sudden, stressful situation, is very useful.

[@ThunderPanzer]

in self defense you'd be better off with a sword. There's no way you're getting a second shot, if you're lucky to get a single shot off. Guns are ideal for this because they come out of the holster ready to fire.

[@gameragodzilla]

Funnily enough, a lot of the discussion around repeating bows seem to mirror actual discussions around repeating firearms in the US during the Wild West days. The Winchester lever action was never formally adopted by the US Army (who mostly used the single shot Trapdoor Springfield during that time), due to things like lower power (the action couldn’t handle proper full power loads until Browning invented the 1886) and added complexity. However, they were incredibly popular in civilian use for things like hunting or self defense since you could carry all your shots inside the gun itself and have a lot of rapid fire. They were also used by speciality units in the Army, too. Union scouts famously used the Henry (the predecessor to the Winchesters) which is where the Confederates famously called it “That damn Yankee rifle you load on Sunday and shoot all week!”

[@Minty1337]

@@ThunderPanzer depends on range, sure if someone were to knock down your front door when you're on the other side of it, sure a sword would be better, but what about this thing called "distance".... if you either have a decent sized house, or are defending yourself outside in your yard, you will have the distance to be able to at least get a single shot off before your attacker reaches you, it's quicker than a quiver since the arrow is already in place, so it's perfect for quick self defense. having a magazine for repeat shots is more of a bonus to give you more chances, the speed is the bigger factor for self defense.

[@ThunderPanzer]

@@Minty1337 absolutely, but it's also a very peculiar scenario. You'd have to be wealthy enough to live in a large house, or be trying to fend off an intruder to your farm. But it also feels like a relatively modern interpretation of how things would've gone back then. For certain situations, certain weapons are ideal, but what matters in my opinion is how likely those situations are. Are you going to have access to your bow when you spot an intruder? Probably, but by the time you go get it, would it be too late already? And does a bow give the same deterrence effect as a sword? There's many factors to consider, but I don't know the reality of this. From what I know, the go-to self-defense weapon was a sword, until portable guns were available to everyone.

[@MrMartinSchou]

There's another thing they do that might aid in hunting. You can hold the draw pretty much indefinitely, if you add a small finger hook to the end of the magazine. I imagine this allows you to pick better timing for shot, and it means you're not making massive movements (the drawing of the bow) to attract attention. So you could possibly catch the animals in more compromised situations. But I'm not a hunter, so I can't really do anything other than speculate.

[@jrs4516]

watching the side by side reminded me of playing RDR2 a few years ago. specifically the sprigfield rifle vs repeaters. because the springfield single shot reload animation was so fast it was almost as good as having a repeater if you were an accurate shot and you would never heave a down time to reload a magazine. with it's power and cheap price it's the best gun in the game.

[@Beardyyyy]

@Tod's Workshop - the comparison at about 5 mins 30 is interesting, it got me thinking, wouldn't a weapon that needed reloading have been reloaded by someone else so the shooting of arrows could continue as long as possible? What I'm thinking of is that for every archer there may have been 2 or more medieval legolas bows with perhaps one or more loaders who may also have swapped from being a loader to become the archer after the initial archer got tired out. If you had 3 people and three bows you could easily keep up continuous shooting for long periods dependant only on the number of arrows available, and we know they had a lot of arrows!

[@vitorpereira9515]

Make an episode about the Da Vinci's repeating crossbow.

[@rccarsaregreat1468]

Go to: (How to make everything Channel), he did build one

[@cired1236]

Awesome stuff :) What about a heavy, emplaced variety to make up for the poundage loss? Mount the bow horizontally, magazine up, on a tripod or directly to a wall. Can row back with both arms while a second person reloads. Using a rowing motion, maybe using your legs too, seems like you could basically have a rapid fire ballista.

[@rogerlafrance6355]

Packing everything, on your back, to the battle meant every pound had to be considered.

[@thefatefulforce8887]

As always fantastic video. My DnD brain though likes to work overtime on these contraptions. It Might not be for warfare, but it might just work for bodyguards protecting VIPs if you can craft them compact enough to navigate indoors and confined areas to protect from multiple attackers. But a small repeating xbow might be even better 😊. Stopping power in that capacity changes bc it would not be needed to penetrate and significant armour and sharp broadheads will easily defeat even gambeson with pretty light poundage’s.

[@rpgcraftsman520]

To be fair, I can imagine using those suppressing fire shots at short range. In this setup, if it were to work the way I'm picturing, it would not replace the longbow. It would be an additional strategy, an additional unit to add, no different from a crossbowman. Picture this setup: Longbowmen in the back, letting loose a cloud of arrows to fall on the enemy from on high, as artillery. Quickbowmen behind the front lines, waiting for the enemy to begin their charge into the wall you've made, of shields and pikes and swords and maces and axes. As they get close, the quickbowmen pull, aim, fire, push, and again thrice more; it slows enemy momentum, perhaps downs a few, causes stumbles in the charge. They reach your wall weakened, and the quickbowmen fall back, find a spot to hide, reload their bow-box, and run a quick check of the slides. Then, pull, aim, fire, push again, thrice more, from another angle. Tell me that wouldn't cause _some_ revolution to the battlefield - at least until they took it to the next logical step and made the actual crossbow!

[@Elnufo]

You really matrixed the living crap out of the running men! 😊

[@boogaboogaboogaable]

The easiest change would be a two man team. One man loading, one man shooting. Of course you would need two bows

[@aldariontelcontar]

Fun, and basically what I expected: "instant legolas" provides no advantage in sustained rate of fire. The Chinese had something similar, the repeating crossbow, but I am not certain they ever actually used it in war.

[@tods_workshop]

Absolutely they did, but short range and no flights

[@aldariontelcontar]

@@tods_workshop Thanks!

[@slappydave4241]

I bet it would be a good mechanism for stationary ballista kinda things where it could be loaded with a lot more arrows And/or a wealthy estate could have teams with several of these and people to keep loading more of them Or just as a shock tactic to pump out a bunch then switch to a normal bow for sustained engagements They would have found a way to use it if they had it

[@Daylon91]

I am Sioux and we were known along with other plains tribes to shoot fast along with the steppe tribes. Even i can shoot an arrow every 3 seconds which is what we were known to do. U dont need a big contraption to shoot fast if u know what youre doing. U can hold 3 arrows in your drawhand and sinply drop the arrows down. There are videos of men doing it with 80+ pound bows.

[@danielrego81]

About the reloading: it's quicker to switch to your semiautomatic handbow

[@jamesj4827]

Been excited to see this one after the teaser on FB

[@jorenbosmans8065]

Soo, just to give the Legalos bow a chance in warfare: what it it was used in a sort of creeping/advancing way? A first line starts shooting and the ones after it are reloading. When reloaded they advance and start shooting. It is a stretch I know, but sounds fun for a fantasy story.

[@nitt3rz]

Lindybeige & Jason Kinglsey did an interesting video about medieval competition archery.

[@raven_of_zoso455]

Diablo II had multi-shot bows already in 2000. They could take out just about any beast, demon, or undead.

[@mban2748]

Some factors are so obvious, they can be easy to overlook. Like you say, Farmers will want to fight the way they hunt, with the bow they know. Thank you for this examination of this system

[@maryrose2676]

Did they use warbows to hunt?

[@tortex1]

@@maryrose2676 No, but as Tod said they hunted at close range and you don't get the chance to take a second shot. So an instant legolas would be useless added weight and loud in that situation, so a fad for the young'uns.

[@tods_workshop]

As regards bow weights for hunting, we don't know, however most people would not be in a position to own multiple bows, so my guess would be whatever they shot for war is what that guy would shoot if he hunted

[@Nala15-Artist]

Since i cant see mentioned in other comments, i will. We know from documents the great trouble english kings went through to equip their "regular" archers with not just bows, but quality ARROWS. It was hard even for a KING to supply his archers with just a dozen shots. Can you imagine trying to get at least TEN dozens for your archers, in addition to all the fangled mechanical devices that are prone to jamming and, with being manufactured in large quantities, prone to breaking? And for what effect? So that a huge volley of arrows impacts on a bunch of knights in a shorter amount of time, with way less efficiency per arrow? At best, it would only have a similar effect as regular bows at a huge cost increase (think about it, sure, it might be scary to face a hundred times the arrows, but then you look around and see that hardly anyone is injured or dead and you'd just continue advancing). No, it probably would have been invented had it been able to be useful (like the famous cho-ku-nu) but given medieval european circumstances, it would have been a whole lot of effort for no benefit.

[@euansmith3699]

Matrix Tod looks like a total bad-arse. 😎

[@tods_workshop]

The one (semi) cool action moment in my life

[@euansmith3699]

@@tods_workshop I don't know, your medieval rig is very stylish, and you absolutely nail the Workshop Chic look too.

[@Billybobble1]

Awesome video Tod, interesting and funny throughout.👏

[@edelweiss-]

The laugh of Jörg 😂😂😂😂

[@barretharms655]

You forget self-defense. That is what the baluster is for self-defense and sniping at very close range.

[@Kensuke0987]

I think in warfare, they would have been good enough at shooting high volume of arrows with less troops - probably enough to get the levies to rout. After the burst volley and their magazines empty, the archers would temporarily withdraw, safe from return fire. They don't particularly need the high rate of fire over a long period of time. They just have to do that burst volley. I think they would have made great skirmishers.

[@ArchmageIlmryn]

Wouldn't the obvious point of comparison be the Chinese repeating crossbow (cho ko nu)? They were used historically, and had a very similar mechanism (and it does seem like the kind of thing Tod would love to play around with), but were rather limited in actual use.

[@the8thark]

The multi shot bot is just a touch faster when reloading is factored in. However, having 4 arrows ready for rapid fire would have really worked for medium range, lightly armoured foes. Then treat them like the later musketeers. 1st row fires four arrows then retreats to the back and reloads. While they reload, the new front row (previously 2nd row) fires 4 then retreats to the back row and reloads, etc etc. Hypothetically if this was a thing, it would be purely a battlefield weapon, used in certain circumstances. Possibly suppressing fire? Or just a better way to get a higher number of arrows out per minute with 2-3 rows of archers. Though I think the cost and time to make them would make it not worth it. But for sustained fire over a longer time, assuming you have enough arrows, this could work as you would only have to fire 4 arrows before retreating back a row to reload. Giving yourself a little rest from shooting while reloading. Honestly though I think a multi shot crossbow would have made more sense. Not really possible but hypothetically if possible would have helped a lot with self defense. Approximately 4 shots to hit your attacker instead of just one. This would be just like what the revolver did in the 1800's. Sure it's way longer to reload but when you need it the most, you have the few extra shots. Keeping yourself alive and then you can reload when the heat is off you. A note about repeating crossbows. A fully semi automatic crossbow is what I'm talking about here, so like a repeating crossbow 2.0. Way smaller, concealable and great for point defense where you need to deal with a threat close to you but miss the first shot.

[@zerinpetersen3519]

Tod, have you thought of turning the handle 90° I think it would put the arm and wrist in a more natural shooting position and would be easier to use.

[@yutori3RS]

子供の頃「三國志」で読んだ連弩(考案者、諸葛亮孔明)とか床弩とかいうのは創作だと思ってた 連射アーチェリーとか、すごく脳味噌が湯で上がってて。好き from japan

[@AC-um2mk]

I'm surprised I haven't seen it used in a movie yet

[@writerz2543]

For those trying to get a better view of the book it's called For Maytenance of Archers.

[@tods_workshop]

www.amazon.co.uk/Maytenance-Archers-Medieval-Tudor-Sourcebook/dp/1716444101

[@Sawtooth44]

i think it just needs the right man to get it going like mad case in point, Oda Nobunaga with his 3 line formation, 1 shoots, 2 reload with the old matchlock rifle i can see something similar done with crossbows and i also see it also done with the instant legolas

[@nokta7373]

Problem is a lead ball is cheap and light and you can carry hundreds. An arrow is costly, moderately hard to manufacture, weights a lot and realistically you wouldn't be able to carry as many. You'd run out of arrows pretty quickly.