Mushin The Zen Concept of No Mind

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[@barence321]

Zen Master Seung Sahn (1927-2004) said that 'no mind' meant "...cutting your attachment to thinking," and cultivating a "...great don't-know." Then "...you see that you already have no-mind." This is basically the same idea as shikantaza. In your practice, don't try to attain some special state of mind; just sit.

[@macmcmaster6892]

Brad san Arigato, ne? I read all the wiki and internet definitions. I decided I needed the Hardcore Zen perspective of mushin. I had come to the conclusion that Shikantaza was close to the mark. We met in St Louis at the Missouri Zen Center, at the turn of the century, the trip your car broke down. Glad you are doing well. Mac

[@odpaws]

Mushin , like Dao, to me isnt something that can be communicated in words spoken, written or thoughts because it's mushin. Non Buddhist documentation about mushin doesn't serve to transmit dharma as much as it serves to communicate it in words to non Buddhists. Ironically, in doing so, it obfuscates the concept. That's why koans exist. Saying the word silence isn't silence itself.

[@ayyadhammadipa9502]

I always think that when Mahayana sutras use the word "no" as in the Heart Sutra or Zen teachings, it means "empty." Thus, no-mind = empty mind = mind that is completely non-separate from other phenomena and conditioned by them, mind that does not set up arbitrary boundaries. I agree with you, Brad, that it may be easy to experience that no-mind in shikantaza.

[@fireatwill8143]

"Trying to express the inexpressible is a fools errand,... But I've never let that stop me". Jed McKenna 😊

[@ThePhoenixcompanies]

I used to raise cattle. Sometimes when I got into the pen to sort some of them from one pen to another, the next thing I realized I was done sorting. This left me contented.

[@paulengel4925]

you should have a poetry contest to choose your successor

[@JimTempleman]

It seems clear to me that when Dogen instructs us, in the Fukanzazengi, to: “Stop the driving movement of mind, will, consciousness. Cease intellectual consideration through images, thoughts, and reflections.” He means it. And this seems tantamount to entering a state of no-mind (mushin) or at least no-thought. Yet most Soto practitioners appear to ‘pay no mind’ to this instruction. The Fukanzazengi states: “In general, a quiet room is good for practicing [za]zen, and food and drink are taken in moderation. Cast aside all involvements. Give the myriad things a rest. Do not think of good and bad. Do not consider right and wrong. Stop the driving movement of mind, will, consciousness. Cease intellectual consideration through images, thoughts, and reflections. Do not aim to become a buddha. How could [this] be connected with sitting or lying down?” - Dogen (2007) Shōbōgenzō: The True Dharma-Eye Treasury. Translated by Gudo Wafu Nishijima & Chodo Cross (2007) Appendix II Fukanzazengi (Universal Guide to the Standard Method of Zazen) Volume I. p. 364

[@TukenNuken]

The issue with this instruction of "Stop the driving movement of mind" is that it might not be clear what exactly is meant by 'stopping', and it can be understood in exactly the wrong way. The key is not to force anything to stop, but to do the exact opposite and allow things to be, even what you might think of as the "movement of mind". It's important not to add fuel to the fire by trying to force your mind into some state. Deliberately forcing your mind to stop is precisely the "driving movement of mind".

[@JimTempleman]

@@TukenNuken Yes! The point is to cease one’s attachment to the thoughts, “opening the hand of thought”, and letting go of them. The problem is that very few people know how to do this, and fall into the habit of watching the contents of their thoughts, which leads to entanglement. Hongzhi says in ‘The Acupuncture Needle of Zazen’: “Knowing without touching things, this knowledge is innately subtle. Illuminating without encountering opposition, this illumination is innately miraculous. - in Taigen Dan Leighton & Yi Wu (2000) Cultivating the Empty Field The book: Carl Bielefeldt (1988) “Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation” Gives Dogen’s earlier version of the Fukanzazengi which explains how to attain ‘no-thought’: “Do not think of any good or evil whatsoever. Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified.” (I can vouch that it works, but there are a lot of subtleties that have to be attended to.) Better yet, his article: Carl Bielefeldt (I986) “Ch'ang-lu Tsung-tse's Tso-Ch'an I and the "Secret" of Zen Meditation” (which can be found on Google Scholar) It not only provides the source from which Dogen took those instructions, but it also suggests why Dogen (and others) changed them to something more impenetrable in later editions. The impenetrable version is: ‘Sitting immovably in the mountain-still state, “Think about this concrete state beyond thinking.” “How can the state beyond thinking be thought about?” “It is different from thinking.” which is found in most versions of the Shōbōgenzō, including the Nishijima & Cross translation.

[@Rhobyn]

The instruction becomes clear(er) once you know/understand the five aggregates model and dependent origination.

[@JeffStorey-se6ox]

Those opening quotes made me think about Toaist principles I've read about like wu wei, the do without effort, kind of like the idea of flow

[@jugsewell]

The Sōtō school holds that shikantaza originated in China and was transmitted to the founder of Japanese Sōtō, Dōgen Kigen 道元希玄 (1200-1253), by his Chinese teacher Tiantong Rujing 天童如淨 (1163-1228). However, the term shikantaza does not appear in surviving Chinese documents, and most nonsectarian scholars now approach “simply sitting” as a Japanese innovation, based on Dōgen’s idiosyncratic understanding of the “silent illumination” (mozhao chan 默照禪) teachings he encountered in Song dynasty China. Robert Sharf University of California, Berkeley

[@captinbdran20]

thank you for every thing , i am from Egypt and work as a therapist and you really really help me and my clients throw me , thank you for all videos i love you

[@Rhobyn]

Takuan Soho is a Zen monk who is well known for his instructions specifically towards martial artists and feudal lords. He might be an example of more... politically involved temples. But he is pretty well known among people into Japanese martial arts. He was also sometimes (fictionally) depicted as a mentor to Musashi Miyamoto. I have some of his writing. Always seemed weird, instructing people on how to use Zen ideas for killing.

[@altmilan]

Also see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unfettered_Mind

[@CaptMang]

I think of mushin as being in harmony with those things (emotions, ego, discursive thoughts, etc.), rather than being free of them... just letting them be as they are instead and being okay with that.

[@saralawlor780]

Always always good, thank you 👍

[@bennigan88]

"No Mind" always makes me think of that great training scene in The Last Samurai. Tom Cruise sure got enlightened quick in that one.

[@Yeti_Boop]

He got so enlightened he became a better swordsman in like a month than people trained in it since early childhood. Lol

[@Spudcore]

It may not be useful, but it sure sounds profound! :D

[@blackbird5634]

If you wish to find out more about how and when Zen Buddhism was made into a war-like philosophy in Japan read: "The Japanese Art Of War" by Thomas Cleary. He details the introduction of Buddhism to that country and how this simple, peaceful philosophy was co-opted by the Samurai Class into one focused on the martial arts.

[@Veepee92]

To say "the samurai class" is a bit of an over-generalisation. Historically speaking it's true that the majority of the supporters of Zen Buddhism were samurai, but a majority of the samurai class had nothing to do with Zen, and there were good number of samurai who derided Zen as a fatalistic philosophy completely unsuitable for the warrior class. The idea of Zen as "the philosophy of the samurai class" was mostly established during the burgeoning nationalism of the late 19th century.

[@blackbird5634]

@@Veepee92 Again I refer you to Cleary's work on the subject, he makes a much more refined explanation of the theory and the details agree with your assessment.

[@cyrilgcoombsiii]

love that shirt!

[@guyolive1071]

i was introduced to this concept as a kid from "Zen and the Martial Ats". Kime and Mushin. I found it to be a useful approach to life I still use to this day.

[@tomnussbaumer6077]

Is it wrong to compare/relate Mushin to a flow state? Like when you become one with whatever you are doing in the moment? I'm quite lucky to get very often into a flow state when working (I'm a software developer) or when performing art and there is no real thinking going on for hours and hours, but the "work" somehow realizes itself ... (and is of higher quality as when I let my mind interfere).

[@leetrask1884]

A "flow state" came to my mind as well from the video. I spend most of my days programming as well. On a really good day, I can hit that flow state and the code just writes itself

[@TurdFlingingMonkey]

I think I can explain. The Zen concept of Mushin is being combined with the Taoist concept of Wu Wei. Taoism has a stronger influence on martial arts, and Taoism also influenced Buddhism when it came to China from India when Zen was Chan Buddhism. The Japanese later apparently removed this Chinese elements (perhaps related to Japan's unfortunate history with China). This made Japanese Zen more "pure" in the sense that Shunryū Suzuki meant, which meant to keep the practice free of anything extra. Conversely Taoism places a lot more emphasis on the mind and body and not the practice itself. Rinzai Zen (which I know you're somewhat familiar with) can be thought of (within the context of the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism) as somewhat halfway in-between Soto Zen and Taoism (which has also been influenced by Buddhism in its own way). Hopefully that helps, and hopefully I didn't upset anyone by making overly broad generalizations. Thank you for your books and videos, and don't click on my channel or you'll regret it.

[@paulsagerman5111]

The Mushin 'mind-set' may fit well for certain action-oriented situations. Such as waiting to strike the Dokusan bell.

[@joeg3950]

Nice acoustic intro! I’ve read a few of DT Suzuki’s books. Like you, I admire his scholarship and knowledge. However, with much scholarly writing, it may not be the best place to increase one’s understanding of a concept that many find difficult on a good day. Shunryu Suzuki is accessible, but I caution a casual reader not to readily say that they understand his content. In the past few years, I’ve attended events where people claimed to completely understand someone’s work without having the honed tools necessary to have sound comprehension of an author’s text. This may sound a little snobby. However, if one does not practice with study and seek out a teacher’s aid, they will most likely go to down a wily path. All the best, Brad! Viva Ziggy!

[@altmilan]

In economics, there's a thing called Goodhart's law (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law) that basically says that metrics cease to be useful once you make them into targets. Maybe something along those lines here too?

[@fieldstalker2474]

Do you have videos where you talk something about Joshu :D Its interesting to see what you understand from those koans because I can’t understand nothing

[@juanduque71]

Buzzcocks are/were the best

[@markbrad123]

Some other Buddhists also teach still Shamata to emptiness dependence because full on omnipresent sensory attention maybe disturbing or empathically suck. No expert on Nis , think he called that Para brahmin.

[@4kassis]

OK, these quotes may be a bit wishiwashy, but Dogen has never struck anyone as clear and helpful, Not anyone who would search youtube or wikipedia for information anyways...

[@bigd4157]

Brad Sometimes you are spot on and other times you should just play the guitar.

[@mattrkelly]

yeah... it might be easier to practice zen if you are not such an intellectual...