Taoism and Zen

[@Chilltown4eva]

Chuang Tzu (or Zhuangzi) is actually not another name for Confucius. He was supposedly a student of Lao Tzu (though there is apparently less concrete proof of Lao Tzu's existence than his own) and also served as a critic of Confucianism. Confucius' ideas of cultivating the Tao in Chinese society, by means of heavily regulating human activity to be more orderly, was regarded by Chuang Tzu as ridiculous and doing more harm than good. According to his perspective, the over-imposing of social order only interfered with the natural understanding of what Tao is in each being and created distorted standards for human life (such as the grotesque act of foot binding at that time). I felt the need to correct this minor point just so not to be misinformed. Appreciated the video otherwise!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

According to some passages, Master Zhuang considered the Ruist "rites" as, under the right circumstances, as at least "useful means" (as "total anarchism" was probably felt as too "enzymatic", so to speak). Some passages in the Dàodéjing can be interpreted as pointing into the same direction. PS.: Footbinding was the folly of (the gentry of) much later times, probably starting with the Sòng-era.

[@crafty50golf]

About a year late on this video but I thought I'd jump in as well as share that Chuang Tzu (and/or other authors attributed as being "Chuang Tzu") really focused in on the relativity of everything. I don't have the words to appropriately explain how helpful this was/is for me. For what it's worth Chuang Tzu also had some humor to him (and thank you Alan Watts for mentioning in a talk that he was a one of the few philosophers of antiquity with "real humor" as I'm not sure how long it would have taken to find his work if that was not pointed out).

[@bradf253]

This really bugged me! You worded it really well so thank you! It makes the video kinda hard to listen to T.T

[@tomenns7978]

For a different point of view on this, the first half of Alan Watts' "The Way of Zen" explains the connection of Taoism to Zen Buddhism by covering the philosophy of Tao, origins of Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, and the rise and development of Zen. This is a very thorough discussion of this topic.

[@ΠατροκλοςΓεωργιοςΟικονομοπουλο]

I've read that too, it's an effort I think to emphasize the similarities. Brad's video on the other hand focuses on differetiating. I keep the part of certain concepts being in most of mystical traditions. And that zen has its own flavor, mainly having to do with placing the practice of zazen in the epicentre. Therefore, words like emptiness, way etc take a more pragmatic vibe than in taoism. Taoism seems more poetic to me. A different vibe, I don't know.

[@MrResearcher122]

Dogen travelled to China. Chan practioners tended to be reared in the arts of Tai Chi since it was, culturally, the air they breathed. In Celtic Christianity old Druidic rituals still floated like a cotton cloud above the stony Churches. When Dogen returned to Japan, he returned with Chan. He also, unwittingly, returned with Taoist concepts.

[@DanielL143]

From my personal perspective; Taoism is the more complete and true system; Buddhism is profound and transformative and the starting point on the path to awakening, but on its own it manifests only the feminine side of the Tao; emptiness, submission, letting go, non-ego, illusion - all critical and essential teachings - but to complete the understanding of the universe there is also the male side (everyone has both elements in their psyche according to Jung); the male side being egoic, creative, hard and the two forces of Yin and Yang combine and contrast to manifest themselves in an infinite number of ways from which everything emerges. Buddhism on its own, approaches nihilism and is not healthy or practical unless you want to withdraw from the world and I don't think that is what even Buddha intended. Taoism (and perhaps Zen to the extent that it did absorb Taoist influences) is the Way. Hard, soft, positive, negative ... all things and no-thing. Cheers and good luck on your path to wisdom friends.

[@JimTempleman]

David Hinton’s book: “China Root: Taoism, Ch’an, and Original Zen” does a fine job of tracing how Taoism reshaped Buddhism when it was received in China. At this point I no longer draw a line between Zen & the “Tao Te Ching” (Essential Taoism). There is a lot to be learnt from an in-depth study of Chan (Chinese Zen). Tao Te Ching: Chapter 1: (translation by Gia Fu Feng & Jane English) … Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. …

[@gunterappoldt3037]

One can also translate as follows: Long-[time-]non[being, functioning as intentional base, points towards the] obscure [or noumenous, ideally to be] revealed [by flashes of insight]; Long-[time-]having[being[, functioning as intentional base, points towards the] apparent [phenomena, ideally to be] revealed [by flashes of insight]. Just saying, to demonstrate the manifold possibilities of interpretation. PS.: The natural hermeneutic circle gets automatically triggered by the text, because, as Niklas Luhman used to stress: "One cannot not communicate!" PPS.: One may compare the DDJ also with a very, very old recipe, naming some ingredients which we, today, have difficulties to identify and use correctly.

[@JimTempleman]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Thanks for your alternate translation. It never ceases to amaze me how many interpretations come out of such writtings. > “PS.: The natural hermeneutic circle gets automatically triggered by the text, because, as Niklas Luhman used to stress: "One cannot not communicate!"” The writing that had the most immediate impact on me was the “Song of Mind (Xin Ming)” from the Oxhead school of Chan. As I would read it my (thinking) mind would simply stop & I’d be there starring at the text before me. It only lasted for a few seconds (but could be repeated, after a refractory period). But later, after years of Silent Illumination practice, when I let go of driving on to the next thought, I experience the same mind, empty of thought (pure perception), but then it lasted for 30 minutes. Whoosh!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@JimTempleman Yes, and translating-interpretating sometimes can be fun and inspiring. What regards the "empty mind", I suppose it is not totally identical with the so called "mushin". The phenomenology of the latter points to some "deeper/higher/transcendental/..." tier of "being/suchness/...", but that´s just my personal hyothesis.

[@JimTempleman]

@@gunterappoldt3037 I agree, this form of "empty mind" is not enlightenment, but it may be a stepping stone towards it. After practicing this "empty mind" and I was back in ‘thinking mode’ it seemed to me, that deeper insights would well up afterwards, during the ‘thought process’. In Brenda Ueland's book “If You Want To Write” she observed that if a writer was kept away from writing for some time, or someone stopped communicating for a long time, when the opportunity arose a strong outpouring of ideas occurs. Something similar occurred when I was regularly engaged in "empty mind" sessions.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@JimTempleman This reminds me of Herbert von Guenther, who, on the last few pages of the biography "Buddha" that he wrote, outlined an ontologisation of epistemology, so to speak. He merged the "inner realities" (including "alternate states of consciousness", etc.) not only with the "outer realities" (i.e. the "objective" world of time-space), but also with the "transcendental" (of the "godhead", of Nirwana, etc.). However, as far´s I know, he never expanded on this model in any greater detail. What seems common sense, today, is that consciousness (or "light consciousness") and subconsciousness (or "dark consciousness") interact in complex ways, some of which we can (only) become ("light"-)conscious of via third-person-perspective observations, like when the eye sees itself via the I looking into a mirror, and noticing: "Thats my eye!" (a faculty, seemingly, rather the exception inside the "empires" of flora and fauna, although not exlusively one of Homo sapiens sapiens).

[@guido3771]

Dogen can't accept Taoism because he also relies on Nagarjuna's dualism (two truths). Taoism is just too simple for Dogen and would question a lot of his complications.

[@monzerjm]

"He who says does not know; he who knows does not say." This taoist saying is consistent with the Zen approach in that both traditions emphasize the limits of concepts and language for living in harmony with reality, and rely instead on clarity of vision through direct experience of reality as an ever-changing flow. Concepts cannot capture the flow but can only superimpose boundary lines within it similar to the metes and bounds of a real estate description. To be free in the mind from attachment to concepts so that appropriate action arises in response to the tasks at hand is an ideal which Zen and Taoism share. Mystical praxis.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Things seem a bit more complicated, due, not a last, to the fact that both "systems" changed several times significantly over the last ca. 2500-3000 years. Just a few points for some clarification, if I may: a) Older translations often used the Wade-Giles transcription for the "Tao Te Ching", however, the - now more and more standard - Hànyûpînyin-(Romanisation-)version of "Dàodéjing" is nearer to Standard-Chinese, i.e., Pûtonghuà, resp. Guóyû or Mandarin. b) Who was the "old Master" (Lâo zî)? We don´t know. However, during the Hàn-era, when "religious Daoism" really took off, so to speak, the legendary "Master Lâo" slowly gained in divine status - maybe, for some people the Dao was too abstract. c) Furthermore, the Dàodéjing seems to have been composed -- probably by more than only one author -- on the basis of a set of much older verses, which reflected (regurgitated/unpacked) the common source of all religio-philosophical systems in classic China: the "Yìjing/Book of Change", and the ensueing Yijing-Learning. d) The DDJ is not the only Daoist "classic". The Book of Master Zhuang is at least as important. Moreover, in later times, that is, over about the span of the last 2000 years, several paradigm-shifts and modifications - some syncretistic - took place (one can get a glimpse via, e.g., the "Taoist Handbook" by Livia Kohn et. al.). e) Classic texts, and especially the Yìjing and the DDJ, are as such multi-dimensional and poly-vocal, which means: One cannot, but invest some hermeneutical work, if one aspires to "decode" all the implicit tiers of meaning. And indeed, much interpretative work has been done since classical times... f) Master Dôgen obviously adopted the widespreach parochialism of his times. One may also wonder, if he had at all any intense experiences with Daoism (which was mainly practiced on the Mainland, in China Proper, and, maybe, the Ryûkû-islands) -- which btw. was/is not strictly identical with the diverse "Ways of the Gods" (Shintô) in Japan (or Wuism, or Shugendô, and other somehow similarly "naturalistic" systems). g) The "Dao" and the "wú" are by far not the only common key-phrases in the wider field of Dao-Zen. There are, e.g., the famous "wúwéi" (non-action, non-doing), the "xu" (void/voidness, ideogram: the wide opened mouth of a tiger), and the "kong" (empty/emptiness, ideogram: a cave; framed open space), or the "xukong" (as empty-void the standard-translation for Shûnyatâ). h) In sum, the relation between Buddhism and Daoism has been complex and complicated. During the era of the "Empire" (221 B.C.E.-1911 C.E.), two basic "strategies" can be discerned: Sometimes bitter rivalry dominated, however, especially since the Sòng-era, the general line of a peaceful coexistence was favoured -- but, then, a new huge common rival appeared on the scene: Western Christianity, which was often not less parochial - and culturally imperialist. And today, we, again, see new changes and challenges for the old-new, staying-changing Zen-movement.

[@Benevitism]

Excellent list of points!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@Benevitism Thank You!

[@chilldragon4752]

Really happy you commented on this topic. I've heard people say that Zen is the baby of Buddhism and Daoism. While I wouldn't say it like that, they did indeed influence each other such as Buddhism entering into China lead the Daoists to create Daoist temples when they saw Buddhist temples popping up. Love the Tao Te Ching and I can see a lot of "Zen" ideas in the book. Red Pines translation is a favorite for me.

[@torontosteve]

@Pete Testube Chan used to be pronounced ' zen ' or 'zhen. 1000 years ago, hence the Japanese pronunciation

[@heavenlypath1065]

​@@torontosteveOther way around bruh

[@goatsplitter]

Back in 2005 when i started my buddhist studies, i was whole ass into it. I read and practiced ravenously. Sanga turned me right off of it though. At least as far as going deeper, and maybe it was the specific one and not endemic of buddhism. I found it far too rigid and far too ritualistic. It reminded me of christian church, with the chanting and all the things. I still very much so love practicing zazen, anc studying on my own. However, ive found taoism far more palatable. It's now my main focus for spirituality, with the exception of zazen as a meditative practice. I think it's good to explore other brands, not be married to anything, and pick up and put down what floats your boat. Just my two cents, for whatever that's worth. I suppose it's worth a comment to pump up your algorithm, eh? Great video as always!

[@johnmiller0000]

Have you looked into Won-Buddhism? It takes core teachings of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism. For me, Taoism adds a certain organic vitality to non-dual teachings that Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta lack. I've spent most of my life being far too intellectual. The Tao Te Ching is a breath of fresh prana.

[@danielpinojr.8312]

Ch. 20 - "Stop thinking and end your problems"

[@bigd4157]

Brad, You missed the boat on this comparison. You're bias on Dogen Zen blinds you to the true nature of Tao. Put down the books and look around.

[@thomasrutledge5941]

I've had so much exposure to the works of Alan W. Watts that Advaita Vedanta, Taoism & Zen Buddhism seem to arise as a singular thought.

[@davidkim2005]

@@thomasrutledge5941 Same.. Advaita, Zen, and Taoism is essentially the same thing. Anyone who tries to make distinctions between the 3 are really just caught up in the conceptual framework level only, ironically something the Zen tradition really makes a big point about..

[@Nooneself]

BRAD...You met Stan and Judy in Lawrence Ks. I'm a Taoist that practices with Stan's Kwon Um Zen group . Best WISHES

[@AFellowNoSelf]

Was mulling this over today and happy to see you have a video on it. One thing I arrived at was no-action vs action. Practice as experience etc in zen

[@DTmishine]

If you are curious there are two other interesting translations of the Tao Te Ching that I know of. One by Stephen Mitchell which I appreciate since he has a long history of dharma practice and has made a profession of translation. The other one is by the Ursala K. Le Guin, an extraordinary poet and author. Cheers.

[@HardcoreZen]

Ursala Le Guin did one? Gosh! I liked her book The Lathe of Heaven a lot.

[@crafty50golf]

To add to the list of translations that folks following this channel might be interested in - Red Pine also has one (patiently waiting on it to be delivered as we speak).

[@jaked5144]

From my study of Taoism, I see a lot of similarities to Zen in their approach to effortlessness and naturalism, almost like a similar attitude or outlook. I can’t remember if it was on the channel or in a book, Brad, but you said something to the affect that Buddhism, if everyone’s memory and all of history was wiped, is the only religion that could come back in a similar form. I think that’s really fair and exemplified in pointing out the similarities in mysticism.

[@KyleHeathArt]

I searched this on KZbin last week, and now you post a video on it-awesome! Thanks for the shobogenzo references, would love to hear more on this topic. Possible topic: daoist alchemy practices vs zazen. Or daoist focus on cultivation vs zen focus on “just sitting.”

[@torontosteve]

It was the Beatles song that introduced me to the Dao de Jing, and the Dao de Jing, introduced me to Zen, via Alan Watts who wrote books on both

[@purumr]

Alan watts said many times that zen is combination of Taoism and Indian Buddhism.

[@michaelfox4503]

I’ve read that too! It’s a quite common consensus amongst scholars on the subject

[@joshu4780]

Alan Watts said a lot of stuff, so keep that in mind.

[@purumr]

@@joshu4780 and also let’s not confuse Chan and Zen Buddhism , though both words translates to same, chan predates zen by 400/500 years and has lot of Taoism influence.

[@ceruleandusk]

Brad, just a tip to help you: you don't have to introduce yourself in every video. You can make a short video just introducing yourself and pin it at the start of your youtube channel page. This way whenever someone wants to know who you are or what your channel is about they can just click on "Hardcore Zen" channel and the video will automatically start playing.

[@Magnus_1996]

Awesome video, I was searching YT to get a better understanding of this topic and I definitely learned a few things! Thanks :)

[@chuckinchina6926]

chuang tzu is not confucious, two very different people. chuang tzu is the wade giles spelling of zhuang zi, a supposed disciple of lao zi, and the likely author of the dao de jing (at least large portions of it). confucious is kong fu zi. if you are curious about daoism, read zhuangzi, it is absolutely worth your time.

[@richleyden9418]

favorite Zen quote "going OK or not OK is none of our business" Elihu Genymo Smith -- second favorite -- When asked what he thinks about when batting Yogi Berra replied, "how can you think and bat at the same time."

[@osip7315]

god, these desperate missionaries promoting any nonsense under the sun and for what reason ? their own turpitude and stupidity?

[@joeg3950]

As I read the comments and reflected upon the video and past experiences, many people take an essentialist tack with this topic. Many look for and often see what they want to see when tackling topics like this. There are influences upon any religion, faith tradition, etc. However to say that this one thing, or these two things, is the source is essentialist and reductionist. To discover the origins of any faith tradition takes years of study. You have the right frame of mind when looking at this endeavor. “Similar concepts but not quite exactly the same.” Many pieople read just a few books and think, “This is it. These things are so similar that I know this is it!” Nope, they have to stop that. You did a great job with a complex topic.

[@pajamawilliams9847]

Zhuangzi is a great book. Even better than Tao Te Ching. Scholars are skeptical that Zhuangzi the person would have considered himself a disciple of Laozi. He was certainly familiar with Tao Te Ching, but their association is a more recent thing. Also, yin-yang is just a Chinese concept. While it tends to be associated with Taoism it's not really a Taoist 'thing'.

[@caseywayneguymorefield8868]

You should do a video on Buddhism and classical Greek philosophy like Stoicism, Epicureanism, and Pyrrhonism. Also Buddhism and Yoga philosophy.

[@chuckinchina6926]

man, i am leaving a lot of comments, but yes you are right, chinese culture and the chinese language loves brevity. most sayings and idioms in chinese are only four words long. i had a geology professor that said if you couldn't give an answer to a question that was a sentence or less, you didn't really understand said concept, he would mark us down if our answers were too long.

[@SteveRuprecht]

i feel less alone knowing there's at least one person out there who uses the "grab whatever scrap of paper you have at arm's reach when you read something cool" book marking method.

[@nancydrmt]

Thank you for commenting on the mystical traditions.

[@lani0]

lao-tze, chuang-tzu, and lieh-tzu - three philosophers of taoism

[@helloalanframe]

Zhuangzi is not another name for Confucius but a great Daoist teacher.

[@joshu4780]

I believe you meant Chuang Tzu, who is not Confucius.

[@garynaccarato4606]

Even though Buddhism and Taoism historically blended and alot of Taoists and Buddhist especially modern Taoist and Buddhist believe in alot of the same things partially because of intermingling and partially because of just so happening to share certain significant similarities but I think it's certainly important to note that from the start early Taoists and early Buddhists we're independent schools of thought which would have looked at certain things quite differently then one another and they would have also came to certain significantly different conclusions and understandings when it came to certain things and you can't entirely consider them both the same or exactly equivalent to one another.

[@brandonlind5700]

I’m by no means an expert but I think it’s important to note that early daoist from my understanding were against social norms and unnatural state hierarchies unlike Confucianists. The early daoist didn’t see themselves and Confucianist as parts off the same whole but as separate things. In some ways were possibly anti Confucius. So early daoism in its purest non political synchronization with Confucianism was less conflicting with early Indian Buddhism and probably had bigger influence on Chinese Buddhism then later daoism. In addition from my understanding as daoism as philosophy spread it merged with local religions and formed a lot of the different non philosophical branches of daoism, so there are two broad forms of daoism the philosophical and various occult/alchemy type focused ones. From what I have read there are a lot of things called “daoism/ the way” that are very different. So the statement zen is a hybrid of Buddhism and daoism is probably far more true when referring to early daoism and far less true when referring to later daoism.

[@wittyslittleworld]

All paths lead to the Truth.

[@jamesboswell9324]

That was really v. interesting but what I felt you missed are the ways in which these different teachings or traditions differ most significantly. Perhaps you've already picked up on that in a later video?

[@baradoy]

Taoist Texts Paperback - 13 Sept. 2021 English edition by Frederic Balfour (Autor) also a great book

[@minhacontaize]

Dogen is a bit too sectarian for my taste. He and Nichiren could´ve been good pals.

[@clammert29]

U rock man, thank you for doing this :)

[@BlackCat-tc2tv]

So you talked about the difference between Buddhism and Taoism but not a difference between Zen Buddhism and Taoism which I do think from the history it seems like Indian base Buddhism mixed with Taoist philosophy ended up with the pared down version of Buddhism called zen.

[@WrongWorld23]

I like the Hua Hu Ching, maybe even a little more than the Tao Te Ching. I think both are great texts of immense wisdom. I find many of the Taoist texts quite compatible with Buddhism and also see many parallels with Zen. Taoism as a religion on the other hand is something completely different, a lot of stuff about alchemy and spirit rituals and the like that doesn't have much in common with Buddhism anymore. Unfortunately, it seems to me that Dogen was quite narrow minded in his opinion of views other than his own method of Zen. He seems to have been quite dismissive of anything that deviated from his views of Buddhism, strangely enough, the greater the similarities to his own views, the more intolerant his remarks seemed to be. But maybe I just read him wrong, at least it often seemed that way to me. I also think it's quite a shame that Dogen seemed to lump Lao Tzu and Confucius together. Both were more like rivals or opponents with polar opposites in their views. The Tao Te Ching could even be more of a criticism of the way Confucius believed in achieving virtue through cultivation and social norms and duties, while Lao Tzu's way was more about trusting the Tao and believing that people are virtues by themselves if you just let things take their course.

[@jonkomatsu8192]

I don't know how many various translations of the "Tao Te Ching" I have owned. But there were many. And I found those brief and mysterious passages intriguing. But then I realized just how "magical" and superstitious the actual religion was, and gave all those copies away. My sister-in-law and her mom are devout Taoists. And I am not even sure they have even really studied the "Tao Te Ching." Don't get me wrong, there is great insight there. Yet somehow those passages become aphoristic slogans that readers go "aaaahhh, so true!" Then promptly forget. Oh well, I shall stick to non-dualistic emptiness. My feeble mind can at least make that work. Thanks for the topic!🧘‍♀️🤙

[@Benevitism]

Religious Daoism has many significant differences with philosophical Daoism.

[@williamedmondson2360]

Love the Ghoul Shirt and CH 43, grow up in NE Ohio!!! Thanks for making me think about it......

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks! I used to watch Superhost on channel 43 every Saturday.

[@zaneivy]

...and then there are those like Chrisopher I. Beckwirth, who posit that Lao Tzu WAS Gautama.

[@got2kittys]

There's a much bigger contrast between Zen and Mahayana Buddhism. The latter is much influenced by Hindu philosophy, IMO.

[@michaelfox4503]

Which is interesting as Zen is technically a “school” In Mahayana Buddhism

[@adamdacevedo]

QUOTING DOGEN/NISHIJIMA: Brad, in general, if you receive transmission as a teacher in a certain Zen linage, to what degree are you obligated/constrained to teach or espouse ideas firmly within that tradition?

[@johngolebiewski1451]

Hmm. Appreciated, Brad! These are subjects that would seem too historically sophisticated for a short analysis. Ultimately, the point that a Zen practitioner needn’t study Taoism or Taoist texts is well taken. Nor is any text or systematic knowledge needed for Zen practice. Is the historical conversation between Taoist practitioners and Zen practitioners interesting? I think so. Is that worth exploring if you’re interested? I think so. And there are lots of resources that explore those historical interplays. But, most of all, Wayne Dyer’s uninformed exploration of the Tao Te Ching is a fair bit cringey. 😄

[@mirror-magic]

I read David Hinton's China Root. And he pushes the theory that Chan is basically Taoism repackaged as Buddhism. Who should I believe? Brad Warner? Or David Hinton? I'm trying to understand why it matters?

[@jedertageingutertag]

dear brad! do you know this book: "trust in mind" by mu soeng?

[@shattered_lightsb8381]

Small correction, the Dao is not a “God” as we understand it, it is formless and eternal, it could be considered a universal force or energy that nourishes, harmonizes, and completes all things.

[@heraldofthemetalgods2620]

TFM salutes you.

[@wildman9922]

No, let's talk Ghoulardi vs the Ghoul!

[@chuckinchina6926]

also it is not mu, its wu. maybe thats the japanese pronounciation? i dont know ive never studied japanese, but wu 无(simplified)無（traditional），means emptiness or the lack of something. 无为，non-doing or inaction, is one of the core philosophies of daoism. cuijian had a great song in the 80s called yiwusuoyou一无所有，having nothing. nitpicking i know, sorry lol. thank you for talking about this.

[@thejakealonzo]

Can you post on Keizan Zenji…?

[@joshu4780]

"Pu." "Mu?" "Wu"

[@_Pauper_]

I love how flippant you are when you can’t pronounce Chinese… love it… it’s hilarious…

[@osip7315]

daoism, zen, christianity all ontologies of god when the ontologies fail they don't ask

[@shawn6669]

That's a horrible translation.