Music Chat: Why Arthur Sullivan Is England's Greatest Composer (Seriously)

[@IHSACC]

“It is admittedly harder to write good music which is joyful than that which is sad. It is comparatively easier to be mildly dismal with success.” -Ralph Vaughan Williams, in National Music and other Essays, 88. He also wrote of Sullivan, “Sometimes the potentially right man comes at the wrong time. . . . Sullivan, who in other circumstances might have written a Figaro, was thwarted by mid-Victorian inhibitions: The public thought that great music must be portentous and solemn, an oratorio, or a sacred cantata at the least, and that comic opera was beneath notice as a work of art.” -Ibid., 232. Sullivan was “a jewel in the wrong setting.” Ibid., 3. He clearly admired Sullivan‘a music considerably, but noted it’s unfortunate lack of appreciation given its context.

[@antoineduchamp4931]

David, as a full-blown Brit I cannot thank you enough for saying that Arthur Sullivan is the best composer we have produced.... oh heavens how I agree! And you played "the sun his rays" - what a top man you are! It is divine, divine and worthy of the greatest praise. Any Opera composer would have died to have written this lovely tune. On a lighter note.......the humour... "she may very well pass for 43 in the dusk with the light behind her"

[@crzxr]

In fairness, the words were by Gilbert - so we can praise the setting; but to cite the words in support of Sullivan's humour is hardly on the point. By the way, Queen Victoria didn't despise Sullivan's operas, which is why she had a command performance of The Gondoliers at Windsor Castle. I wish this chap knew the tunes - his rendition of The Mikado is somewhat wayward..But it is certainly true that Sullivan should be revered and his supremacy in fashioning comic operas (as Mozart) recognised properly for what it is: true and authentic genius. I have been proselytizing for Sullivan since the 1970s, when I was at school, and there has been a huge improvement in the receptivity and acknowledgment of his stature since then; but many so-called 'musical' people still feel uncomfortable in including him with the likes of Rossini et al. More fool them! As for the overtures, the ones he bothered to write himself stand out in their structure and thematic ingenuity (he brilliantly displays thematic metamorphosis of tunes in, say, that for The Yeomen of the Guard ); Iolanthe is another perfectly constructed overture, entirely Sullivan's work.

[@byronarnason6006]

Analyzing Sullivan separately from Gilbert is like cutting the Holy Trinity into 3 slices of pie. You are an erudite gentleman and genius.

[@aristocratofgreed8740]

Fabulous talk. I think that beyond Sullivan being the greatest, he's also very representative of the British given how many great witty and comedic people they have (Monty Python, George Bernard Shaw, Rowan Atkinson, Oscar Wilde, Lewis Carroll, etc.). They're a very comedically talented people and that's something to be proud of.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It really is, you're right,, so you wonder why the musical establishment hasn't caught on?

[@albertthorne6595]

Musical snobs who deride Sir Aurthur Sullivan would probably be singing his praises had he called himself Arturo Sallivante and used a foreign language for his libretto

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

I think Sullivan's music is so approachable. A perfect introduction to classic music for children as well as adults. Absolute genius.

[@davidwalton1606]

Yes, fond memories of helping constitute the choirs (villagers, pirates...) for our G and S troupe at Oberlin. We may have studied the dark, dreary, atonal stuff for our music courses, but performing those witty and beautiful operettas were an act of love.

[@applin121]

Sullivan won the first Mendelssohn scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music in 1856. His teacher was John Goss, who had been taught by Thomas Attwood, a pupil of Mozart. The scholarship was extended to two and then three years when he studied at the Leipzig Conservatoire. The man had great talent and an equal pedigree.

[@coloraturaElise]

A big problem with those who downplay Sullivan's work is that they simply haven't looked into it. When you take the time, you see his wonderful melodic gifts, orchestral colors, and so many other details everywhere. And the identifying mood, color of each opera, which runs throughout---Mozart did this, and books are written about it, but Sullivan did it, too! Your excerpt of "the ghost's high noon" from the overture of Ruddigore sets the tone for that opera, and it permeates it....it's not just that number, the whole opera has that color. (We really see this when folks change the setting of an opera like "The Mikado"--it's jarring because the music was written for a specific place and mood.) As for "the sun whose rays", that number is not just an example of exquisite melody, but the mood painting with the woodwind instruments and strings....incredible! It's also eminently singable, as is so much of his work. I'm an instrumentalist (clarinet, woodwind doubler), but was attracted to singing and finally developed my voice because I wanted to sing G&S properly! Though I sing 'high' opera, G&S is my first love, and I am proud to say so!

[@coloraturaElise]

I've just seen this quote that helps explain some of what I was trying to say above (and I'm sure David would agree with these words):

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you for that excellent quotation!

[@lanieldapres2627]

The same prejudice against so-called "unserious" music also clings to Jacques Offenbach, one of the greatest French composers in my opinion. His gracious melodic inspiration, rythmic invention, subtle orchestration, and skilful handling of the French language are second to none, period.

[@Bgreengart]

It seems that only the classical music lovers in English speaking countries (particularly in the UK) have a negative attitude towards Sullivan for reasons too long to go into here. Currently, on the continent and elsewhere classical music lovers have no problems with accepting all types of music by Sullivan. British composers have always longed to have their reputations established on the continent (particularly in Germany). For over a decade now there has been a Deutsche Sullivan Gesellschaft in Germany that has produced a number of successful professional Sullivan performances including THE GOLDEN LEGEND. How many other Brit classical music composers have societies dedicated to them in foreign lands comprised of foreign ethnic members? In Ghana, there was a thrilling performance of the first movement from his FESTIVAL TE DEUM. His greatest part song THE LONG DAY CLOSES is regularly performed across the globe including in Indonesia and Japan. I could go on and on. It seems that because he was an English Victorian composer and wasn't bipolar or neurotic, he can't be taken seriously by some.

[@michaelzimmerman7166]

Thank you, Dave. I've been having a really crummy day, and you helped me laugh my way out of it. I'll never listen to G&S quite the same way again: your arguments are all well taken, Sir Arthur was the real thing. Only that some of your superlatives...great melodies, turning on a dime, perfect marriage of text and music...apply equally well, if not more so, to Rossini. We just saw the premiere of Italiana in Algeri at Bregenz...I haven't laughed so hard, even at the most outrageous moments of Grace and Frankie or The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Curious that Rossini, who was probably the only person to have both Beethoven and Wagner refuse to meet with him, was the favorite composer and paragon of musical form for that laugh-a-minute philosopher Schopenhauer. As for the entire classical music world having a stick up their butt, I confess to being a passionate Wagnerian and to be hooked on the gravitas, catharsis, and just plain dirtiness of it all. But that doesn't prevent one from relishing the ridiculous, the absurdity, the fun, and the sunny affirmation of the joy of life in great comedy.

[@SimonHesterLonelyPianist]

You've only to hear Pineapple Poll to be overwhelmed by the outpouring of endless, joyful, fresh, poignant, bubbling, catchy, moving, emotional melodies that tumble over one another to fill the ears and heart. What a melodic gift!! Thanks for standing up for Sir Arthur! 😊

[@SimonHesterLonelyPianist]

@@alanhowe1455 I never listen to any composer and worry where they stand in the pantheon. I enjoy them for themselves in that moment.

[@john1951w]

@@alanhowe1455 Indeed. Great tunesmith, outstanding partnership with Gilbert but our greatest composer? Don't buy that at all.

[@john1951w]

@@alanhowe1455 Leroy Anderson is great fun. Wonderful light music in the same vein as Coates and Ketelbey. His typewriter concerto is the finest one ever written for the instrument. I prefer his stuff to Carter, Bernstein and Copland.

[@hobhood7118]

Yes indeed...very well said. For many years Gramophone (and others) did not include Sullivan in their opera reviews while being happy to include J. Strauss, Offenbach etc. , as well as the 'proper' composer such as Rossini. Comic opera was OK as long as it was from acceptably artistic countries. Actually, I think much of the snobbish distaste for Sullivan (with Gilbert) was due to the fact that it had (certainly in the UK, ) a very prominent amateur/community performance tradition. So the operas became linked in highbrow minds with amateurish-ness. G&S had certainly fallen into disfavour with anyone who considered themselves 'intellectual' in the UK when I first encountered the operas as a kid in the 1970s. G&S was a secret vice that I kept hidden from my university friends and tutors in the '80s for fear of ridicule. I was a Drama/Theatre student, so anything genuinely funny and accessible was frowned upon. Nowadays some UK people confuse Gilbert's critique of nationalism with actual nationalism -so 'He is an Englishman' is used to support Brexit etc. when the opposite is true. Maybe Sullivan's fault for setting it to such a convincingly patriotic tune!

[@john1951w]

Sadly local amateur groups rarely do G & S or R & H nowadays. It's dying out somewhat.

[@hobhood7118]

@@john1951w Yes - I think G&S is fairly unknown to most people under 40 - coincides with demise of the DC. I suspect interest will fade professionally in about 30 years.

[@john1951w]

@@hobhood7118 There's already very limited professional interest unfortunately.

[@gerhardohrband]

Such a smart move by Naxos to let you play all their stuff. I imagine, most other labels are more short-sighted.

[@markokassenaar4387]

Your viewpoints are refreshing and even a relief in the humbug world of mandatory seriousness.

[@aristocratofgreed8740]

Could you do a video on the Ideal G & S operettas? I'd love to see your selections and hear the many interesting topics that G & S would make possible for you to touch on.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I can do works but unfortunately there aren't really enough recordings. I like the idea though!

[@vanessasperling]

@@DavesClassicalGuide please do!

[@ewmbr1164]

What a great video, Dave. You just opened a door for me into a world which beckons me to enter end explore!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yay! Have fun!

[@zippedizappedi]

I agree with everything you said. ❤️❤️❤️ Thank you! I can tell you that Wolfgang Mozart and Arthur Sullivan are two expressions of the same soul.

[@richardwilde9157]

What a beautiful, brilliant defense of Sir Arthur. Thank you. If anyone needed lightness and laughing at ourselves, it's the current generation.

[@ftumschk]

I certainly appreciate Sullivan's greatness and his genius for melody. When it comes to "comic" opera, I'd put him right up there with Rossini and Mozart.

[@raphaelfournier8273]

You should perhaps add Offenbach.

[@ftumschk]

@@raphaelfournier8273 Indeed, although I'd put Offenbach - and Donizetti - just a tad behind my "top three" :)

[@lednew2010]

As a composer and arranger of "lighter" symphony/pops music, I face this all the time (He's not a "serious" composer) but I do have many followers and get lots of performances (around the world) so, I continue to write what I like and hope others will too. Bravo Sir Arthur!

[@CaresinVerse]

I taught acting for 34 years. What struck me about your comments about the comparative difference between composing music for comedy vs drama was what I said to my students many times about playing comedy vs drama on the stage. I maintained that comedy was more difficult to play because we have all understood incidents of sadness and loss and tragedy and we identify with it, but reacting honestly to strange situations in a way that most people would not, and playing it convincingly (not trying to be funny) required depth and imagination beyond our everyday circumstances. And I am right with you on the brilliance of Sir Arthur Sullivan. I adore his music. Thank you for your comments!❤️

[@DrJoePeters]

Excellent! I hope music education classes are using your videos.

[@lanebrain55]

I am conducting a concert of all English music in March. The program is; Overture to Pirates of Penzance, Crown Imperial March and the Elgar Cello Concerto,. I think humor in music is great and it takes a talent, Great thoughts here, thank you. The music is also very playable. More Joy is good!

[@TheMrpiggy6666]

Dave, on the subject of humour in music...any chance you might explore Peter Maxwell Davies , Mad King piece specifically the recording with Julius Eastman as i would love to hear your take on both of them.....

[@Churchcantor]

Watched your Mahler video, then this pops up, and you confirm something I've been saying for years...subbed!

[@bbailey7818]

Bravo! First, I'd contend that the three greatest operas ever written are comic: Nozze di Figaro, Meistersinger and Falstaff. As Edmund Gwenn said (on his deathbed) to jack Lemmon, "Dying is easy, comedy is hard." Would I put up Ivanhoe against Britten's serious operas ( easily the greatest of the 2nd half of the 20th century) or even RVW's gorgeous Pilgrim's Progress? Hell, no. But I think Iolanthe--whose overture Sullivan actually wrote himself--is easily superior to Albert Herring and even Midsummer Night's Dream. In Ruddigore I love the parody of the appearance of the Commendatore in Don Giovanni. Offenbach tended to write parodies by direct quotes, Sullivan was more subtle. Something like 'Were I thy bride' in Yeomen is worthy of Schubert; the "string of pearls" in Act 2 of Princess Ida isn't matched by many composers outside of the greatest. Even outside of Gilbert, I think the Overtura di Ballo is one of the finest anybody wrote for sheer genius of thematic manipulation and transformation (Liszt sounds clumsy in comparison) and high spirits. I hope I can recommend a book revaluating some of Sullivan's "serious" output, "Sullivan: A Musical Reappraisal" by Benedict Taylor. It gets fairly technical and involved when he discusses structure, motivic work and harmony but the gist of it is easily comprehensible.

[@richardallen3810]

Thank you for your thoughts on Sir Arthur. I've loved G&S since a young boy and have memorized all their operas and love nothing more than putting on a CD in the morning and sing all the parts. It's a great way to set your mood. In the 70's I saw the last tour of the Doyly Carte in Los Angeles and saw 3 performances. In all my life I have never experienced such joy from an audience flooding over me as during those evenings of unbridled rapture and delight. Most everyone around me knew the lyrics and the dialogue and though you knew what line was coming up you still laughed aloud. Pure Bliss.

[@stephenmarmer543]

How great was that!!! In high school days my family would always go to the Greek Theater when Martin Greene was the star. His performances have never been surpassed.

[@richardallen3810]

@@stephenmarmer543 In fact it was at the Greek where they did their final run. I was 16 at the time and totally into G&S driving my parents mad lol

[@spacepunk2001]

@@stephenmarmer543 Martin Green--incomparable!!!!!

[@justintai8725]

I absolutely agree with you! I became completely in love with Gilbert and Sullivan after Shunning it for many years and being obsessed with other types of musical theatre. But the cleverness and the joy and the width of the writing and the music inspired me and captured me. Thanks so much for your brilliant upload. Please do more about Gilbert and Sullivan, because it's such a fascinating subject. 🎹🎩🎭

[@fredcasden]

Having performed in the chorus of productions of many of the G&S canon (including Ruddigore!), I'm with you as to their quality. Our troupe also did many of the standard American musical comedies, and there is no comparison to the sophistication of the G&S music and lyrics.

[@TheAndrewJBaker]

As a student in the late 70s I saw several G&S operas with the old D’Oyly Carte at Sadler’s Wells. I’ve never experienced anything funnier. I fear it’s a lost art. They have to be done “sttaight” without silly mugging and larking around. The comic lead at the time was John Reed. And yes, there are also moments of sublimity. I can’t think of anything as original and simple as The sun whose rays - maybe some moments in Massenet.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

The sun whose rays is indeed sublimely beautiful. I also loved it's use in Mike Leigh's film Topsy Turvy

[@Gwailo54]

I agree about playing it straight. The recent Gondoliers (Scottish Opera) played it for laughs and consequently was as funny as herpes at an orgy. Plus they sang it like opera which kills it stone dead. I always loved Alan Styler’s light baritone on the recordings of Iolanthe (Strephon) and Gondoliers (Giuseppe). That sort of lightness of touch is essential. Kenneth Sandford had a heavier baritone bit it was never stodgy. I saw Iolanthe and Ruddigore from the Gods at the Wells in the late 60s/early 70s, my father was in such high spirits he drove like a madman trying to beat the traffic lights all the way to Edgware. To quote Sir Despard, “That sort of thing takes a deal of training!”

[@barrygray8903]

So glad you are taking some time off (even though I miss your chats and reviews). Seeing this particular chat has sparked my curiosity about Sullivan's Irish Symphony. I want to check it out and have found recordings by Richard Hickox, Owain Arwel Hughes, Sir Charles Groves, and David Lloyd-Jones. Would greatly appreciate a recommendation for this work. Thanks very much.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I've always loved Groves, but Lloyd-Jones is very good and, come to think of it, so are the others. Go for whatever is easiest and cheapest.

[@philhomes233]

I totally, utterly, completely agree.

[@songsmith31a]

In terms of range alone, it's difficult to disagree. His magic gift with melody, not least when used to such great effect as the setting for the infectious often abrasive wit of Gilbert, is a wonder that never fails to entertain. The longevity of both (worldwide?) is a testament to their respective skills.

[@jasonquinlan731]

Jesus Dave you really opened up a can of worms with this video.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Who is Jesus Dave?

[@paulschlitz5256]

Posterity is fortunate that Sullivan’ had an inept stockbroker. Who just after the success of Iolathe told Sullivan that he had lost much of his money. Sullivan had planned to retire from operettas and seek what he felt was a more exalted sphere of composition. But alas Sullivan was also a man of immoderate means; he had a stable of race horses and mistresses and liked to have a table at Monte Carlo. Which meant he had no choice but to keep putting out the operettas. Without this financial misfortune we wouldn’t have Mikado Ruddigore Yeoman of the Guard, or the Gondoliers.

[@fred6904]

Dear Mr Hurwitz. I would like to ask you to consider to make a talk about wich of the operas by Sullivan you should start whith and then in wich order you should continue through all of them. I belive it would be a popular talk. Best wishes Fred.

[@jaykauffman4775]

The Gilbert texts really are incredible. If you read the words to Yum Yums opening Act Two aria you can see she is not exactly a shrinking violet. She knows exactly how much she is worth

[@angreagach]

As you mentioned, Sullivan farmed out some of his overtures, including the ones you quote. You might be interested to know (assuming you don't) that Ruddigore actually had two overtures. The one used in the original production was the work of Hamilton Clarke. The one you quote was arranged by Geoffrey Toye for the 1920 revival, long after Sullivan's death! This is the one usually used today.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I do know.

[@oldcremona]

I am a humble choirster in your editorial ensemble, and agree with your every ascertain ❤

[@paulschlitz5256]

Dave you have aged remarkably well!! I love to listen to you hold forth. What would we music lovers do without you?

[@marilynharris4118]

❤❤❤Amen, Dave! ❤❤❤

[@sybedijkstra1]

'Eye-opening' video! By the way, 'The sun whose rays' seems to me to have great affinity with Bizet (l'Arlesienne, Symphony, etc.) 🙂

[@michaelmurray8742]

Absolutely agree. His music is as fabulous as any. The legend Keith Jarrett often performed his music in concert to great effect.

[@composingpenguin]

Amen, QED, etc. No other composer’s tunes are so frequently stuck in my head as Sullivan’s. His setting of English words is also the best around-perhaps Sondheim is his main equal (eat your heart out, Britten). My favorite is a line from Iolanthe: “‘neath this BLOW, worse than stab of dagger/Though we MO-men-ta-rily stagger.” And Iolanthe best demonstrates that Sullivan is the truest successor of Mendelssohn.

[@Rollin_L]

So many great comments here, to underscore the magnificent (and wholly accurate) reverence for Arthur Sullivan Dave Hurwitz offers here. As one who spent over 30 years in a professional G & S repertory company, touring the United States a few weeks most every season, I have always been saddened by the lack of respect Sullivan receives in America particularly. The ability to mimic or satirize other composers' styles, in a way that is respectful as well as brilliant, is arguably more difficult than being 100% original. Yet too often Sullivan is written off as a composer capable of nothing beyond that, which suggestion displays an ignorance of the amazing melodies, harmonies, counterpoints and orchestrations that are wholly original and make up the bulk of the scores written for Gilbert's librettos. It further ignores Sullivan's magnificent orchestral works, oratorios, hymns and art songs, all of which rank him with the best from not only England but anywhere in Europe. It is true that the music culture of Victorian England dictated some of what he wrote. But is it really any different for the culture in which Bach, Beethoven or Mozart composed? They all benefitted or suffered from the expectations of their day. Truly Sullivan's immediate successors, such as Elgar and Vaughn Williams were in the best position to understand Sullivan's greatness. I appreciate the Vaught Williams quote from @searchthescriptures7 here, and Elgar knew Sullivan and admired his work greatly as well. These two were born just late enough to enjoy years of work in the post Victorian world. Sullivan, had his frail health allowed him to live to a ripe old age, would have had so much opportunity, but sadly he died at 58, only a short while before Victoria herself. Thanks to this channel for giving Arthur Sullivan his due!!

[@zottek2]

Yes, he was the greatest of them all. And the Decca complete G&S box is the best three inches in my collection (which is large)

[@Cubehead27]

Hi Dave, speaking of under-respected British composers working in comedic duos - I'm curious whether you have any thoughts about Donald Swann! (Of Flanders & Swann fame.) I recently got around to hearing his Tolkien song cycle "The Road Goes Ever On" and it's really quite interesting! (I've also just learned he wrote an opera based on C.S. Lewis's sci-fi-ish novel "Perelandra", which doesn't appear to be available anywhere as a complete recording, but the fact that it even exists is pretty wild.)

[@howardgilman5698]

I think Haydn's remarks to Leopold Mozart about Wolfgang Mozart would be mine also towards Arthur Sullivan. He has taste and great understanding of composition. He can sound like other composers he chooses to parody but also has developed his own style of beauty, regarding melody and orchestration. Compared to Sullivan, his contemporaries were one note artists working within their abilities, showing less regard for atmosphere and rhythm of the words. Sullivan, through his talents, elevated the art of light opera, rather than be seen as a composer wasting his gifts seeking popularity instead of more serious pursuits. Leopold wrote to Wolfgang about not always writing music so complex that the average person has trouble appreciating, but to write in a more popular style. Ironically Sullivan followed this understanding and became less worthy of consideration as a serious composer by his contemporaries and after.

[@chadweirick67]

My only quibble is how much of the humor is rhe music and how much really belongs to the lyrics

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

If the music were not up to the level of the lyrics no one would listen to it.

[@pigeonboy8858]

if tragedy were really as easy as finding a minor key and sticking to it, my composition students’ lives would be a lot easier…

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Maybe they're too dumb to notice.

[@abdon1964]

Think you found a stick!😀

[@DvdAndrsn]

We sang the Katisha-Ko-Ko duet as an encore last year and it was so much fun. (This year we're singing The Rain in Spain -- big yawn -- as an encore, which I wanted to sing in Spanish, but my soprano said that memorizing the ... what, 12? ... words in Spanish would be too much work.) I agree about the current cult of everything having to be serious and important. I saw Nine at the Kennedy Center this weekend; the score is glorious but I didn't realize the plot was so flimsy, despite being based on Fellini (or maybe because of). One of Sondheim's best works is A Funny Thing Happened, which is ridiculously funny, and he doesn't aspire to the profound depths of some of his other works.

[@Mooseman327]

I've often said the very same thing, when I wanted to annoy a Brit...which I love to do. I love the music in the G&S operettas. One great melody after another. Uplifting, positive, humorous, tonal to the max. And I've said the same thing when responded to... "Well, who's better?"

[@loganfruchtman953]

Elgar, Purcell, Vaughn Williams and Handel would like to have a word

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Too bad for them.

[@davidbo8400]

Sorry, Sullivan's too busy right now, might these gents consider sending him their notes instead for sake of comparison?

[@sjpbrooklyn7699]

Many of these comments consist of people’s fond reminiscences of their own G&S performances, and resonate strongly with me. G&S is particularly popular in Cambridge, Mass. Harvard’s Gilbert & Sullivan Players is still going strong. There was for a time an MIT Gilbert & Sullivan Players that was eventually merged into the current MIT Musical Theater Guild. The Guild was itself formed after the demise of the Tech Show, an annual all-original musical comedy written, produced, and acted by MIT students for nearly 100 years. As a sophomore I was the principal composer and musical director of the 1964 Tech Show production “How to Succeed in Espionage Without Really Spying.” I was too busy in graduate school for theater, but while I was a post-doctoral fellow at Princeton I saw a casting call for Iolanthe from the Princeton University G&S Society. I was more interested in piano so I signed on as a rehearsal pianist. Several weeks into rehearsals the director and music director had a row and I was suddenly elevated to music director. Another pianist played the actual performances, so I took a part as a peer, and the following semester sang the part of Samuel in Pirates. These memories have stayed with me for over 50 years.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for sharing, from one Samuel to another!

[@keithjones7810]

I love Sullivan. Particularly his incidental music. Suite from The Merchant of Venice and The Merry Wives of Windsor. Brilliantly orchestrated. Stravinsky said of Sullivan " Always the racehorse. Never the cart horse. "

[@john1951w]

I absolutely adore G and S. The tunes are fabulous, the lyrics brilliant and it's all great fun - just with a bit of tragedy thrown in along the way (Jack Point for example). I've played in many of them and love them all. Who wouldn't? Toffee nosed snobs perhaps. Having said that the operettas are all very formulaic with their topsy turvy plots. For me it's Gilbert who steals the show. I personally put Sullivan into the same category as another superb English light orchestral tunesmith - Eric Coates. Sullivan, despite his greatness (and he is great), didn't leave a legacy anything like some other English composers such as Elgar who was also a great tunesmith. Sullivan was somewhat limited is where I'm coming from. His best work is short spans of tuneful music to fit with Gilbert's crazy lyrics. A perfect partnership. Rogers and Hammerstein springs to mind. I'm delighted with your enthusiasm for this stuff but find your claim just a bit over the top. Why not do another video of Sullivan's work without the Gilbert connection? That would be really good and would further cement your obvious love of the composer. Anything planned?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Possibly. I disagree with you estimation of Sullivan's talent, and as to the operettas being "formulaic," they are no more so then your typical romantic symphonic movement in sonata form.

[@john1951w]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Did he write anything of any significance over and above his work with Gilbert though? All the operettas, as much as I love them, are much of a muchness. A very talented one trick pony. I just don't see any real depth in his work when compared to the likes of Elgar, VW, Britten and Purcell. Yes, Sullivan is fun, it makes you smile and it's tuneful but on that basis is he any greater than The Beatles, The Who or Elton John? Just a passing thought.........

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@john1951w If you don't see depth then you need corrective lenses. The fact that something is funny doesn't mean that it lacks depth--quite the opposite--or that humor cannot be deep in itself. And yes, he wrote a great deal of other, excellent music. And BTW, The Beatles, The Two or Elton John are incomparably greater than Elgar, Purcell, or even Britten and RVW. It's your definition of "greatness" that is shallow, not Sullivan's music.

[@john1951w]

I haven't heard a single piece by Sullivan (without Gilbert) that is anywhere near the class of the works by Elgar, Arnold, VW, Walton, Tippett, Purcell or Britten. That's what I mean by depth. It's nothing to do with being funny. Seriously - over and above the G and S stuff did he write anything of any significance? As you say. he wrote some excellent orchestral music but is it really that great? Did he write a symphony that ranks with Elgar 2 or Arnold 9 just by way of two examples. Or a concerto anywhere near the class of the Tippett piano concerto? I stand to be corrected but his output is a bit thin.

[@greenshades9889]

@@john1951w he’s pulling your leg :)

[@Toggitryggva]

Amen! What fun! I realize I have been neglecting the Savoy Operas for too many years.

[@DavidUKesb]

I found a vinyl record of his Irish Symphony yesterday and bought it.

[@jimcookemusic]

RLPO and Groves? Cost me a lot of pocket money at 15 back in the 70s! Superb piece.

[@davidaltschuler9687]

No video or written review by you so far seems to encapsulate your personality as vividly as this one. Like Sullivan it has depth without pretense. A couple of comments, if I may: In prefering comedy you simplify tragedy, which also needs contrast and timing to be at its best. "Just a minor key"? C'mon! And it has long interested me that Sullivan agreed with the Queen and considered his "operettas" as just a lower-class way to make a living... or so I've read. So what he considered his frustration and failure was actually his success and his major contribution to the world. It gives one hope, does it not?? Thanks for this video.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Why can't you people allow me a little hyperbole for the sake of the point? Are you really all so pedantic? Lighten up please.

[@davidaltschuler9687]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I enjoy hypebole, it just didn't register that way. I'll forgive you if you'll forgive me!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@davidaltschuler9687 Done!

[@LeonoraBassisty104]

As a composer myself, The music I prefer is Sir Arthur Sllivan's one. It just so well orchestrated rythmed and all. I am trying to compose in what is to me the best operatic style, Sir Arthur Sullivan's one. It is a shame, cause in my country Sullivan is very close to unknown. I had to teach my music teachers about him. In my life, I Only met one person knowing Sullivan in France, my oboe teacher because he was playing in british orchestras before.

[@henrygingercat]

Totally agree and Sullivan could also do awesome as in the Hail Poetry chorus from Pirates.

[@paulschlitz5256]

I agree my old friend. Sullivan is certainly the most underrated English composer. In my own age I've come to love Ruddigore, Princess Ida, Iolanthe etc.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks for commenting Paul. Always great to hear from you.

[@operaben]

I'm both a huge fan of Sullivan and Vaughan Williams. Don't agree that tragedy is easy...but agree that they were both brilliant. I'm a director, and I've directed 4 of RVW'S operas, which are REALLY good as stage works. Also have directed several G&S pieces, and love them. For me it's not one or the other. Both are great.

[@daviddorfman320]

So, what do you have to say about the Gershwin songbook, so many beautiful melodies with beautiful librettos?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes.

[@ericleiter6179]

I like Sullivan's music, and have no real bone to pick in this talk/fight concerning the greatest English composers...I see a parallel between Sullivan and Bernstein; the latter's Broadway works have a more natural flow and sense of timing than his serious symphonies for the most part, and yet he was always trying to write more on the serious side to compete with the great masters...maybe he should have wrote a few more works on the level of West Side Story instead of the solemn Kaddish Symphony, etc and realized the ultimate point that Dave is making here...but for the best American composer of humor? Ives hands down, with Frank Zappa a very close 2nd for me

[@Gwailo54]

Bernstein’s Songfest seems to bridge the divide, The Penny Candy Store is a terrific jazz/serial composition, and several other numbers work really well. When he tried to be ultra serious it didn’t quite work. Chichester Psalms is possibly an exception?

[@dankravetz]

Some of the most compelling evidence of Sullivan's genius is the music he composed to lyrics other than W.S. Gilbert's. Listen to the comic operas Cox and Box, The Zoo, The Chieftain and The Rose of Persia. In a more romantic mood (though with many comic moments) are Haddon Hall and The Beauty Stone. The lyrics are not on Gilbert's level, but the music is still top-notch.

[@jensguldalrasmussen6446]

I really, really love the musical side of Sullivan's comic output, but think that the greatness of the works are best appreciated as seen as the result of the genu collaborative , but have difficulties in understanding why it's needed to put up those dichotomies

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Gives us something to talk about!

[@Tenortalker]

It is the most wondrous music. Infact it requires solid vocal and instrumental skills , but also the ability to handle dialogue. There are many non professional groups that put a lot of effort into performing it well despite the reputation for worthy , but not so good ones. Sullivan's music is divine. If you go through the whole series of G & S operettas you will find very few numbers that are weak or not apt for their situation in the plot. Yeomen of the Guard is a great achievement of composition , as is Princess Ida and what about the first 20 minutes or so of Act One of The Gondoliers which is through composed , no dialogue.

[@Bozpot]

I've always thought that Poor Wandering One was a spoof of Sempre Libera.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Gilbert and Sullivan.....the Monty Python of the 19th Century (in the best sense of the word).....There was a G&S "tragic" aria I heard on radio once (cannot remember which) that was pure Verdi...It was so funny I nearly lost control of the car!

[@christopherlandor6056]

I was always under the impression that it was Sir Arthur himself that coveted the higher aspiration of writing more serious works, and that he was mildly frustrated with being "pigeon-holed" as a composer of light operas, (indisputibly a consummate master of such). With this in mind I looked up the Cantata "The Martyr of Antioch" which was premiered in 1880 amidst much fanfare. Sadly, this work does not stand the test of time somehow. With regard to this delightful Music Chat, I've always maintained that the aria "The Sun who's Rays" (Mikado) is indeed one of the best, and would venture to suggest that "O Goddess Wise" from Princess Ida is worth looking up, although perhaps that's a little too much on the hymnic side.

[@sjpbrooklyn7699]

Sorry to disagree with you, but I think Martyr of Antioch is one of his finest works. In particular, the chorus (no. 9) "Evening Song of the Maidens" which is sung against a muted violin obbligato is an incredible piece of orchestral writing, with a precisely crafted orchestral background of alternating cadences of flutes, oboes, and clarinets above pizzicato strings. Furthermore, the moving violin part subtly recalls a similar accompaniment in the opening Chorus of Sunworshippers without actually repeating it. It is a great pity this masterpiece is not performed more often.

[@atomkraftteddy]

I was a choir member in an amateur performance of "The Mikado".

[@ssilversgs]

I agree that Sullivan's music, especially for the G&S operas, is unmatched in its combination of humor, drama and pathos that pairs perfectly with Gilbert's words, and I also find Sullivan's melodies to be memorable and delightful. Mr. Hurwitz plays the opening of the Toye version of the Ruddigore overture (composed in 1920), which I prefer to the original Hamilton Clarke overture.

[@markzacek237]

Actually, Dave did mention that, referencing Cellier.

[@michaeltravisano1161]

I love gilbert and Sullivan too and I would like you to do more stuff about Gilbert and Sullivan.

[@iraeich]

Better than Handel? better than Purcell? Better than Brittain (whom, of late, I've been enjoying immensely)? Better than RVW? Now I really enjoy Arthur Sullivan. I listen to an enjoy Gilbert and Sulivan's operas/operaettas immensely. And I agree with you on the statement that humor is much more difficult to pull off than cheap drama. But seriously Dave, Sullivan was the best Brit composr?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

He was the greatest, yes. Whether you like him more or not is irrelevant. That doesn't mean that the others are "worse," just not as great.

[@iraeich]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Well that's what I wonder about. I mean what your saying is that Sullivan belongs in the front rank of composers. In the same breath as JSB, LVB, and yes, I'll include your guy, Haydn. BTW - thanks fro info on Verdi and I think you said Lucia DeLammamorr. I know I butchered the spelling. i had no idea that Sullivan was doing a, what do you call it, a take off. So you're also saying that Gilbert is one of the great librettists?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@iraeich Gilbert is one of the greatest. That is not a controversial position.

[@john1951w]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Fully agree with your Gilbert comment. Sheer genius and not at all controversial. Asserting that Sullivan is ahead of Elgar, Purcell, Britten, Arnold, Tippett, Bax, Delius, Holst, Byrd, VW, Tallis etc is somewhat more controversial. For comedy value and writing great tunes Sullivan is certainly near the top of the list but so is Arnold on that basis. Sullivan's comedy is all about Gilbert's lyrics rather than his music isn't it? I especially like Sullivan's use of the tam-tam.

[@geoffharris9396]

My parents played Sargent's EMI recordings of G&S constantly which gave me an aversion to his operas at a young age. There best performed by amateurs as the laughs come more freely especially when they forget their lines ! That said, our amateur group dropped him 40 years ago. They prefer to have a go at Hello Dolly or Crazy for You. It all sounds so dated today to my ears but granted hugely popular in those austere pre and post war days when the village hall or the pub were the only forms of entertainment available. His symphony and cello concerto are good though a friend in the Bournemouth Symphony admitted she has never played a note of Sullivan in her entire career ! Not even Pineapple ! Shame on her....

[@john1951w]

Your friend in Bournemouth probably wasn't involved in pit bands for local amateur operatic societies so I'm not surprised. Those productions is where I first played Sullivan in my early teens in Leicester. Outside of the operettas Sullivan didn't write a fat lot so it's not surprising that the Bournemouth SO don't play his music. I agree that his symphony and cello concerto are good. Not great but good.

[@murrayaronson3753]

I agree with you all the way, 100%. I think it's a shame that the Metropolitan Opera, San Francisco Opera, and the other companies do not have Gilbert and Sullivan in their repertories. I'm sorry that Sullivan's Irish Symphony is a fine work and this Jew wouldn't mind singing Onward Christian Soldiers with different words in shul. Sir Arthur Sullivan is the UK's greatest composer and he's a lot of fun.

[@murrayaronson3753]

Thanks to Covid I missed a canceled performance of The Grand Duke. I want to see all the Gilbert and Sullivan comic operas before I leave planet Earth.

[@jamesprudhomme6372]

This is such a great video! I think the other English composer who might be comparable is Britten. Interestingly enough, they both are most famous for vocal music! (The two are almost entirely different with their approach to humor.)

[@johnfowler7660]

The hornpipe in Billy Budd deserves to be better known.

[@daviddavenport9350]

I played Peter Grimes several times in a row...not only is it difficult orchestrally it is relentlessly dreary....even the amazing sets we had...motorized fishing boats, and entire English village as one would see somewhere in East Anglia including a Norman church....all grey, dreary....

[@john1951w]

@@daviddavenport9350 Couldn't agree more. I love the Sea Interludes but the opera drives me mad.

[@romantiachristiana5147]

I greatly enjoy Sullivan, but each other composer has his own qualities. Apples and pears are both good to eat, but different.

[@smileydts]

I believe that Ruddigore overture was actually a replacement written after Sullivan’s death because some tunes in the original overture were cut. Magnificent orchestration and way better than the original in my opinion, especially how that augmented chord casts a shadow over everything that follows.

[@markzacek237]

I love the Toye Ruddigore overture, too but I think it has one miscalculation- one that actually makes it a better standalone overture than a lead into the operetta. It gives away too much with its full presentation of The Ghosts High Noon, which should come as an electrifying surprise in Act Two.

[@richardwilliams473]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I fell in love with the music of Gilbert and Sullivan. The music was very melodic, humouros, and simple. The Overture to Pineapple Poll was even orchestrated by Charles Mackerrsas I believe. The so called Patter Songs were wonderful.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Pineapple Poll is a ballet entirely by Mackerras. He arranged Sullivan's music for it.

[@richardwilliams473]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, David. I stand corrected

[@bbailey7818]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Mackerras did for Sullivan what Rosenthal did for Offenbach. Both marvelous.

[@laurencescott7895]

There is an argument,endorsed by Lin Manuel Miranda , that the patter songs are a precursor of Rap!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@laurencescott7895 No doubt.

[@MDK2_Radio]

Sullivan is underrated for sure, though I think that is a result of his only really known music being the Gilbert and Sullivan works. And I'd rather listen to him than Elgar or Vaughan Williams (or Holst outside of The Planets, in spite of your efforts to promote his other works). But I have to say that it takes great skill to achieve genuine tragedy. I think what you say about sticking with a minor key results only in the maudlin. Humor is harder, but that doesn't mean tragedy is cheap and easy.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sure it does.

[@petertaplin4365]

Bernstein (and I imagine Sondheim too) absolutely adored G & S and used to sing through the operas with sister Shirley. If humour is the main parameter, then surely Malcolm Arnold must run a close second!

[@abdon1964]

@@paxpaxart4740 why of all people? Great musicians are great at seeing greatness in others and then set a trend! The opposite may apply also🤔

[@raphaelfournier8273]

A dozen perfect comics operas Offenbach sure composed in his pre-1871 period before his librettos took a more bourgeois, moralizing slant. This is not to diminish Sullivan's merits and greatness, but he has in this realm, though in another cultural context, very serious competition.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I agree. See my comic opera list.

[@sjpbrooklyn7699]

I agree also. Offenbach can take over parts of your brain. Last night (11/18/22) we saw a Korean language operatic production of Euripides's Trojan Women at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. It was two brilliant hours of intense drama, but when Menelaus arrived, seething hatred for Helen, and declared his intention to execute her despite her declaration that she ardently loved him, I struggled to fight back the laughs from remembering La Belle Hélene, when Menelaus sings "Je suis l'é- POOO (l'époux) de la reine, le roi Menelaus, je crains bien qu'un jour Hélène - je le dit tout bas - ne me fasse de la peine." And the "Trio des conspirateurs" in The Grand Duchess of Gerolstein is as richly humorous as anything in G&S.

[@frankwalker5040]

I remember the great Jascha Heifetz once quoted" There is no big and small in music, only, good and bad".

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yep.

[@josephromance3908]

I have zero problem with saying Sullivan is the greatest British composer. I am not saying I agree with that view, but it is legitimate judgment. There are the early composers Purcell, Tallis, and possibly Handel. Then Sullivan. Then, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, and Britten.

[@sagahammer]

I am 74 and never considered G & S music.until last year. I watched Brexit the Opera (beyond excellent btw) which used a variety of G&S songs. I started by listening in greater depth, and have been listening to all of the main operas. The music is fantastic, and I have been listening to little else. I agree now that Sullivan is probably the greatest english composer.

[@jamesboswell9324]

Speaking as a Brit, I can honestly say that no country on earth would be less bothered by being represented by a comedian or comedic artist. We basically define ourselves by our comedy and sense of humour. Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Mister Bean and Benny Hill even. It's become a global thing. Obviously I'm not saying all British comedy is great btw. Much of it is excruciating tosh and very often what the rest of the world loves best is the worst we have to offer. But I simply don't buy the idea that the Brits actually have any less respect for G+S simply because they do funny. (Shakespeare also did funny and Falstaff is still probably his most loved character.) In fact, G+S were far more celebrated back in the 70s, their operas broadcast on TV quite regularly, and their operas were quite widely respected especially amongst the chattering classes. But I think times have changed too much and comedy is generally the first casualty of progress. Jokes are just less durable for some reason. People don't get Laurel and Hardy anymore either. Or Bilko. Or, at the lower end of the scale, "Carry On" films (that once great British staple of smutty slapstick). And that's why I believe G+S's star has waned and will most likely continue to wane. It's become dated. Tragedy, on the other hand, tends to have a longer shelf-life.

[@jaykauffman4775]

LOVE Ruddigore!!!

[@powerliftingcentaur]

I was certainly surprised by your assertion. But, damn, if you didn’t make a fascinating video to buttress it. As a non-musician, I wouldn’t presume to judge who is the greatest. Even if I was musically literate, rather than debate, why not use this as an opportunity to explore the composer, instead? I am a poet. Yes, Gilbert was indeed fabulous. What attracts me to Gilbert and Sullivan is that for once the words are every bit as important as the notes and un-subordinate (even insubordinate). That iconic aria from Mikado closes the film Topsy Turvy. It can be viewed on KZbin, beguilingly performed. After I view a a Hurwitz video I tend to wander. I also viewed a video of George Rose, hysterically funny, performing as the Major General in Pirates of Penzance, the 1983 film. People really need to check it out. I laughed too hard during this video. The first time after I heard the word “stick.” The second time, at the phrase, “elevation of dismal.” I can’t laugh that hard. I tend to start coughing and pass out.

[@lynnekushner4150]

I think his operas are truly great ... but what about his symphony in E ? ?? IMO Blah, ICK !!!d what do you think?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You're wrong.

[@williamwhittle216]

I have an EMI CD of Mackerras conducting Sullivan overture; got to listen!

[@mancal5829]

It makes me wonder, which, by the same token, is the best composer España has ever produced 🤔

[@ahartify]

Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn would love pulling the rug from under you, playing with your expectations by quickly sliding from a tragic minor key to a rollicking major jey.

[@tritemotifs4198]

You've never been more right! "Bach interwoven with Spohr and Beethoven A classical Monday Pops" is the least of it!

[@john1951w]

Yes but that is Gilbert!!

[@Bgreengart]

@@john1951w But Sullivan elaborates with a snatch of Bach's Fugue in G Minor for organ. That is musical humor.

[@john1951w]

@@Bgreengart Yes it is in the same way that Herbert Chappell quotes music from other composers in his works for narrator and orchestra. Makes sense to use musical quotes to fit the narrative.

[@paulschlitz5256]

Sullivan also sets the English language better than anybody

[@gracegorman642]

Born and bred in England, I am, daughter of a coal mining brass band musician, musician myself, I tell you the quality of ALL music is totally subjective. John Williams the Star Wars guy is every bit as good as Gustav Holst, and Arthur Sullivan is as good as the American guy who wrote My Attorney Bernie for Blossom Dearie. Deal with it.

[@iraeich]

Another q for you: How do you enjoy Mahler in the wake of what you just said? If that isn't a woah i me composer Idon't know who is.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Mahler had a fantastic sense of humor.

[@john1951w]

@@alanhowe1455 Same here. It's a real rib tickly. Bloody laughs all the way.

[@anthonycook6213]

Sir Arthur Sullivan wrote some of the best known hymns in the Anglican hymnal--Onward Christian Soldiers and Nearer My God to Thee.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Those are about the only two, Anthony.....compare the 50 or so entries of RVW......