The Led Zeppelin Riff Nobody Can Play Correctly

[@dustinsutton6166]

Bonham played behind the beat a lot, it's part of what made them groove. I read once that he was a Sinatra fan and always loved that Sinatra sang behind the beat, and he incorporated that into his drums.

[@watamatafoyu]

How far back though? Like a micro nano milli second?

[@DC-ih8bv]

Excellent point . I agree.

[@redrick8900]

@@watamatafoyu About two or three tenths of a second.

[@kodykindhart5644]

One e and a

[@attiylanen]

or then again, maybe he was just drunk... 👍🏻😂

[@Peter-df1hd]

As a product of the 70's I grew up listening to LZ but never realized until now just how complex their music was. Thanks for your analysis!

[@murphymoe9220]

Remember they were mostly a studio group and their tracks were massively arranged. Their live performances left lots out and never sounded great

[@olivaddavilo9614]

@murphymoe9220 Berkeley 9/14/71 & Los Angeles 6/21/77. Just to name a couple of the many good live performances out there.

[@murphymoe9220]

@ Good performances?

[@MerryHoneyBee-xc4tl]

​@@murphymoe9220disagree I thought they were great live. Page did a lot of guitar overdubs and actually downplayed songs in the studio.

[@murphymoe9220]

@ Nah! live they suck although they always had recordings to help.

[@ShredmasterScott]

We all need to hear this message more: Music isn't about perfection....it's about making people feel sh!t. Stop listening to hyper nerd critics who are locked in ego 🍆 measuring contests. This will ruin your songs. Tyler's ending rant is TRUTH

[@brodybazzini6729]

True muhahahaha

[@tonedowne]

It's more like perfection isn't rigid and mathematical, it is an emotive symbiosis of all the moving parts.

[@Saldivinorum]

It's also why even many non musicians can hear the unnatural feeling of digital double-tracking. Even THE most talented musicians are incapable of playing the same exact way every single time. When you do a true double-track there will inherently be differences in how every note is played making it sound natural. It's also why you can't fake an orchestral sound by just digitally multiplying tracks of the same take, because you can't fake the fact that humans aren't perfect lol.

[@TheSlandis]

Perfection sounds lame. Gimme the feels!

[@jameswolfe919]

Never liked Page as a guitar player.

[@alexanderlyon]

That little section always sounded loose and late to me on the record. It may have all been deliberately played like that but I remember it catching my attention almost every time I heard it for about 5 years straight.

[@ciceroromao2643]

Eu adoro. O LED

[@DMSProduktions]

THAT was the whole IDEA!

[@DMSProduktions]

@@ciceroromao2643 WTF now?

[@hickoryham2725]

I feel exactly the same. I love everything about the song, but that one part is hard to get around.

[@watamatafoyu]

I never really liked that song, it was overplayed to death and back on the radio, though I loved some riffs, and yah I noticed it felt off, but Jimmy did that sometimes. But the drummer...

[@WolfusZero]

So you mean to tell me that by playing out of time I've been playing correctly this entire time?!

[@salatieljyrustumanan4929]

Yeah

[@alonewanderer4697]

so you telling me i'm just a misunderstood genius?

[@andrewking7919]

I wish....

[@salatieljyrustumanan4929]

@@alonewanderer4697 everyone has that in them. It only until they are aware of theory or understand how it works that they see they have a happy accident or brilliant madness to show

[@leechild4655]

Tyler still didnt get it right. I could show him easily. when jimmy drops to the lower key he is not playing on a down beat till he hits the 5th note in the line. then the count starts, or measure if you will. i mean you can feel the implied offbeats in the line, like hes making us guess where the downbeat actually is. artistry

[@kl7360]

When the Black Dog riff is about to change back to the implied Em chord it doesn't have three E's in a row like you're playing 6:33 . The notes are E, D, E. I initially thought I might have had it wrong all this time, but I looked up the song plus a couple live version and that's definitely what he's playing.

[@belectronix]

Glad I’m not the only one that noticed

[@mikebeckman7009]

yeah. that struck me as an odd choice as well. All this talk about timing and the notes are wrong. maybe to avoid a copyright strike?

[@trev_dingo]

Was hoping someone in the comments noticed this as well, kind of hilarious to me that this video about nobody being able to get this riff quite right features a performance of the riff that isn't quite right. xD

[@justinamos9223]

Pwned

[@guitarbob63]

You are right sir......not sure how old you are but if you have been listening to a song for 50 years like I have it tends to be ingrained into your musical ears :)

[@victorancelmo2549]

That late snare and kick doesnt mess up the count, it just adds more groove and flavor to it.

[@hqueso]

A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to

[@Mark70609]

The question remains was it intended or an accident? I don’t know, but I know they played when the Levee breaks fast and slowed the tape down to get the effect they were after.

[@michaelmclaughlin6376]

Totally right.

[@robdixson196]

Led Zeppelin was a prog rock band. Led Zeppelin was a blues band. Led Ze4ppelin was a country band. Led Zeppelin was a disco band. Led Zeppelin.......

[@jakewalters8482]

That's because they were plagiarizing from so many genres.

[@miguelbarahona6636]

Led Zeppelin was a Heavy Metal Band.

[@miguelbarahona6636]

​@@jakewalters8482 “Good composers borrow, great ones steal” - Igor Stravinsky

[@louismazzei5862]

…was awesome.

[@robdixson196]

@@louismazzei5862 indeed!

[@ImnotgoingSideways]

For as long as I can remember, I loved trying to perfect this riff. The notes are so overly simple yet the timing is so perfectly imperfect. Practicing it both justifies and defies the use of a metronome and makes for a very good lesson in 'feel'.

[@russellrainwater9343]

Listen closely...ya know that off riff you heard, it's really just syncopation...like a lot of Bonham's drumming...it comes back to the same tempo I always wondered that in high school.. I tried to keep up with him on the dashboard of my car...a yr. Later I started taking guitar lesson...now 30+ yrs later..I've learned a lot..just an intermediate at that...prog prauge...wtf..their music is classic. Everything...

[@AlexSC2006]

Do I need feb be t

[@anthonyjoseph6489]

Perfectly imperfect - I cant think of a better way to describe this! Page has given me fits since I first noticed as a wee lad and as I have gotten older I have gone from the "meh he is just sloppy" attitude to "This man is a musical genius that has a thought process I can not begin to comprehend". I find learning to play just about anything that Page came up with is never easy or predictable; I have certain phrases and patterns ingrained in me and I expect things to go a certain way but he rarely does that. And its glorious! This is a fantastic video on top of an already fantastic channel. My people!!!

[@christiand7678]

Metronome is not your friend here....it's not a secret that Page have a thing for oriental music. These kind of rhytmics are all over oriental music....and even better...

[@LWebber-k7x]

Jimmy Page and JP Jones were session musicians. The concept Page had, was to do music the way they wanted. They did many many things that would piss off other musicians. In fact, when Keith Moon heard them for the first time, he said they’ll go over like a lead balloon. Page loved his assessment. They immediately changed their name from the new yardbirds to Led Zeppelin.

[@motorteeth]

I recently watched a video from Rick Beato about the differences between 90's music (specifically grunge) and today... basically the music industry used to just record them playing, tweaked some things and set it loose. He showed how the beat and time would change with how the band was playing (and feeling) the music in a song. Now it's all trim and perfect which takes a bit away from the delivery. I'd say that was a big part of how Led Zeppelin (and many others) crafted their sound and feel, likely without even realizing it... don't get me wrong, there is tons of great music today but I do see what he means about it all.

[@watamatafoyu]

Yep, a lot of rock from the '60s and '70s sounded sloppy af compared to '80s onward. That was part of its soul. Except for The Beatles... they were just crafted af

[@wojocolebuilds]

Yeah Jimi Hendrix constantly speeds up and slows down

[@toucantango1]

Educate me on what great rock music is out today. I miss something.

[@mburtondavis]

I put classic rock radio on from Spotify and rage against the machine came on. I’ve never felt so old.

[@gregmiller7123]

And it just gets worse! It really hits you when your rock heroes are dying of old age, not overdoses and suicide! 🙄

[@jjohnson8977]

Those guys have actually been at it along time

[@mburtondavis]

@@jjohnson8977 that’s the point.

[@jjohnson8977]

@@mburtondavis stay in control my friend

[@dinorocker8647]

Seriously the definition of "Classic Rock" is gettin' so loose and sloppy, cripes you got bands from the 90's onward that are startin' to creep into this category, I guess it's like every thing else, just tryin' to change with the times, F--- THE TIMES, seriously people are just tryin' to change Classic Rock so it fits the times, the true definition of Classic Rock was the stuff from the Late 60's to the real early 80's ('67-'81) basically.

[@SheepHairOG]

The funny thing about this video, is that he is playing the riff wrong. Not that he's playing out of time or anything, at 4:39 you're not supposed to play the 7th fret three times. You play it once, then play the 5th fret, and then go back to the 7th.

[@easyazpie9091]

lol

[@edwinpringle7342]

The point is that there is no right dummy, pay attention.

[@CreativeMindsAudio]

oh for sure! I've always seen Led Zeppelin as a classic prog rock/metal band with a heavy blues influence. I don't know how anyone thought other wise. I feel like back then things weren't as defined and bands did their own thing more. Also a talented drummer knows exactly when to rush and when to drag. That's what gives a song its feel.

[@MusicMotivator]

Agreed, and I always thought of them as "world" music. Meaning their use of Egyptian orchestra and Celtic folk.

[@CreativeMindsAudio]

@@MusicMotivator the best music out there makes good use of Celtic folk music in some capacity. What song used Egyptian orchestra though?

[@jimdixon3470]

They are all that, and also, they were a pop band. Page spent the mid-1960s playing pop music sessions. He had an ear for concise hooks that you don't always find in something like a King Crimson album. A song like "Your Time Is Gonna Come" is as sweet, melodically speaking, as The Beach Boys. It was that mix of heavy guitar orchestration, nasty blues lead playing, and catchy songwriting that got the band across to guys, gals, Americans, Europeans, kids in the 1970s, kids in the 2020s...Steely Dan did much the same kind of thing at the same time, though instead of prog/blues rock + pop, they were bringing together hard-bop/post-bop harmony with pure pop songwriting and production.

[@tommyabernathy9880]

I agree. When you think about it, I don’t think you can really say they weren’t progressive.

[@mitkopenev9316]

That's the problem, finding a talented drummer... At least in my experience.

[@Jlipnicki]

Page once said the stop / start / stop in this song was partly taken from ' Oh Well ' the Peter Green Fleetwood Mac number, a rare direct reference to another band. Another brilliant riff and a great song.

[@craigday1759]

Great video. In “ black dog “ when you go threw the riff in A and you you let it ring out in A . Well instead of let the A string ring out…grab the G note on the low E string and bend a whole step & hold . That note your holding in A . You be amazed

[@JB_Eckl]

Correct.

[@j_freed]

Yes, hit the A chord, then hit the G bending up the double A with a natural chorus effect. The slight out of tuneness is also what makes the unison D note in the Whole Lotta Love riff work so well.

[@MarcAbela]

And also (just me?) I think the riff has more a 5-6-7 instead of the 7-7-7 (on the 5th string before the riff resumes its usual pattern) that I seem to hear towards the end... no?

[@mariokx250]

@@MarcAbela You’re mostly correct. If you listen closely, he hits the 7 on the low E, then 5,6,7 on the a, and then 5,7 on the a again before resuming the normal riff.

[@brianmcdermott281]

Hell yeah live pagey move

[@stevebuffington6534]

FYI: Every time I saw Page play "Black Dog" live, he would end the riff on the chord "A" like you do, BUT - he ALWAYS immediately (within the time slot/measure) hit the A chord again while bending the low A flat on the low E string and would bend it up to the note A while the A chord rang out. Watched him do it 5 times. I stopped listening to Zeppelin after '72 as page got so drunk or "whatever" he almost fell off the stage once in Seattle and the last time I saw them at the Forum. Broke my heart, my hero had trouble playing the easiest chords to their most simple songs. When I saw them in 'May '69 I was pretty sure they were actual Gods. So all respect to Zeppelin, no hate mail needed. I know how you feel. I love your channel MIWin and am blown away watching you learn things so fast off the top of your head. That Eric Johnson episode was beautiful. OK, Thanks. Steve Buffington

[@redhathacker]

Being strung out, spiraling out of control, falling off stage, these are the traits of most great rock stars at one time or another. Most people get it together again. Some don't and some die. Sad to see on full display but almost a necessary journey it seems. If a rock star has never been strung out on deaths door living waaaaaay too fast, well are they really a true rock star lol... besides Gene Simmons and Ted Nugent of course.

[@stevebuffington6534]

@@redhathacker Ha! "Besides Gene Simmons and Ted Nugent of course" That funny! As a guitarist, Jeff Beck is one I can think of who might have gone through "a stage" but I don't think so, one of the few real guitar rock stars who started on top with "Truth" and stayed getting better every album. I am sure there are others but he comes to mind first for me. Thanks or the response.

[@thebreathalyzer]

I feel you. I find some of his performances really sad. When he was *on* though, he was untouchable. LA Forum 1972 or 1975, one of the 1975 Earls Court shows, No Quarter and Since I've Been Loving You off TSRTS.

[@thebreathalyzer]

@@stevebuffington6534 Yeah, Beck had a pretty solid career.

[@benthomas7629]

Hi, thanks for sharing your recollections! Was that the Seattle concert in 1977 you saw? That show was a low point indeed, and sadly the only one of the 1977 tour that is documented on professional video. The Seattle shows in 1975 were actually really good, judging by the bootlegs, especially the second one. And do you happen to remember in which year the LA Forum show you mentioned took place? Just curious from a "historian's perspective"....

[@Burnt_Gerbil]

“Don’t think about it… Just play it.” That’s the best advice I’ve heard.

[@aidanmccoy5964]

Someone finally said it! It’s iconic Zeppelin. Both Whole lotta love and Black Dog use rhythm as a way to approach “tension and release.” The slightly off-beat feel makes it feel so tense but then theres parts where it locks in and has “release.”

[@volitile54gc]

Black Dog was my Dad’s favorite song and it always sounded off to me when I was a kid. It took me a while to “get it” but that’s what I love about LZ. They played precisely sloppy sometimes to add tension and a dgaf attitude. So good.

[@NelsonMontana1234]

The drums aren't really behind. That's a common misconception. Bonham is dead center. It's Page who is pushing a bit, but Bonham is holding him back. Barely.

[@tezzerii]

Drummers are always trying to hold the guitarist back, and get blamed when the song speeds up ! =o)

[@mofost1]

@@NelsonMontana1234 it’s John Paul jones, jimmy hated playing it & had a time of it fo sho

[@SmedlyButler-cq5iq]

Isn't that just semantics?

[@jspilly82]

Im so glad you brought up this song. I listen to that out of time drum beat every time I hear it and wonder if it was done deliberately or its just the way it was recorded. Its still cool how they catch each other and get back in time. with all the time changes recording albums must have been a nightmare

[@joolz666]

I read an interview with Robert Plant some time ago and he said the time signatures/beats on 'Black Dog' were done deliberately to stop people from covering the song. Obviously, that didn't work. 😀

[@kyleheaser351boombaby]

@@joolz666 no way!? Haha that's so rad

[@pedrochevez2090]

@@joolz666 But if true, why not do it to other big hits? I always felt that it sounded as it sounded because they were in that grove and it just sounded good, tight, so they left it as is on the record.

[@iloverush123]

john Bonham was exceptionally good at how pushing and pulling can work on a groove, specifically when the levee breaks and kashmir, he's flirting with dragging in the first and on kashmir he's dragging the shit out of the verses but is right back on in the slot on the chorus

[@1glassMilk]

I guess the drum is not out of time. The drum sounds like it just plays 4/4. What I hear is that the guitar plays faster at the end of the riff and comes back with the drums at the beginning of the riff. I guess the bass plays together with the guitar and I guess that's why it sounds smooth. There is in my idea no way why John Bonham would be off beat. I almost never hear him being really off beat on albums or live. On the other hand page and jones the gitarist and bassplayer are creative minds and both are aranger geniusses. So I expect they arranged this sped up very wisely. Black dog is full of funny time changes which I guess where arranged very well so I guess this little sped up was arranged very well.

[@PeterTea]

Jimmy Page once said something along the lines that he wasn’t in the music business but in the business of emotions. All that really matters in the end is if one connects to the music.

[@retinalcircus]

John Paul Jones claims he wrote the riff on an organ. In the early 2000s UK's Total Guitar Magazine published a full tab JPJ himself actually wrote in the following month and corrected a few measures of the riff and explained how he came to make it in the first place and how unorthodox the timing was due to the drums. I remember that vividly. Great video 😊

[@paradox7743]

True but it's his take of TomCat from Muddy Waters Electric Mud album

[@pepppery]

More to the point JPJ showed Jimmy how to play it and JP couldn't play it like that, so he kinda played it in his own style. These are JPJ words in an interview I read in the early 90's. Just my two cents.

[@henryb160]

@@pepppery I heard Jones wrote it without an instrument on a train journey, notating it on a scrap of paper.

[@pepppery]

@@henryb160 Great info Henry, thanks! The more you know...

[@Nellosphere]

Amen to that final rant. Most artists are not in perfect time when they perform live at least not for an entire song. But we hear an album/track that was cut and mixed but still have the expectation that we're able to nail it in a session. Tyler gets pretty damn close and that is why I enjoy these videos.

[@AgentJayZ]

I first head that song in 1977. My whole life, I have always just thought they left a little mistake in the recording. It's more than noticeable; to me it's jarring. But it gets your attention!

[@joebish6629]

I thought that too. Always seemed to me that it was the drumming from a different track.

[@frankscassi4960]

It's clearly a little mistake left there. This was most likely the best take, and a small imperfection wasn't enough to make it bad. Bonzo slowed down a bit for a moment (or did Page speed up?) so the rest sounds o bit off for a second, but it still sounds great, so who cares? We all love this song despite the mistake

[@nicholassmith479]

I agree. If I recall there is a mess up in the beat late in the song, but I don’t care. That’s Rock and Roll! 👍🏻

[@Bristolcentaurus]

and the telephone in the ocean and bonzo's perpetually squeaky bass pedal and all the other crazy things that got left in the mixes that add character

[@Lwayte]

Brilliantly done! As a major prog head in the 70s, I always felt something delightfully slippery was going on here with the groove so it’s good to see it sussed out so humorously.

[@stepitupandgo67]

Great detective work!!! Not only was bonzo behind the beat and jimmy rushing, but jimmy also slightly flubs a note in there...god bless them for leaving that stuff in...it's what gives their stuff so much life!!!

[@ayhamshaheed7740]

Fun fact: The 5/4 bit at the beginning of each repeat of the riff was omitted in their live performance, and was instead changed to 4/4 (so they didnt have that short pause right after the vocal line ended like in the studio version, but rather played the riff immediately as the last vocal line was sung)

[@GenesisMuseum]

If you listen closely to the original, I think Bonham telegraphs the pause by hitting his sticks together. I remember it alternating. One time he would hit his sticks as the beat just before everyone comes in, and then the next time there is no pause at all, and no sticks.

[@lawnboyfreak]

Thank you for bringing up Frame By Frame. Easily my favorite Crimson song for the reasons you mentioned. It blows my mind how Fripp and Belew can play that live!

[@shuroom57]

That was so nice of some guitar store to allow you to make this video in their showroom.

[@SilverParatrooper]

This breakdown just proves their musical genius. Many bands have tried but there will only be one Led Zepplin. The true kings of Rock!

[@DoctorEnigma01]

Amen

[@mrkevin6354]

I agree

[@tommyabernathy9880]

Absolutely! 🍻

[@jonbongjovi1869]

ZEP were very EXPERIMENTAL, and everyone forgets that.

[@deangood6682]

100pct

[@jeffhubbard9951]

I really enjoyed this. I'm not really sure what I "got" from it, but it was entertaining, and probably enlightening, on some level. Nice work!

[@joshc1291]

I utterly enjoyed this style of video, awesome! Edit… I prematurely commented but holy Black Dog that was a amazing slide of the lyrics, brilliantly played 👏 sir. Although that I would argue that it was bonham that played the drums behind time, he did it quite frequently and that’s why he was one of the best

[@seangdolan]

New subscriber here! I have a somewhat unique perspective on this song as I play drums and sing it at the same time and I'm classically trained at Juilliard. I always think of the song in half time, and the vocal cadenzas as stop time fermatas over the 2 and 3 of a measure of 4/4. No time change needed. At least not one I need to worry about counting. I just give a hat chick before the next & of 3 or just have the band watch for my & of 3 uncued. But, yes, the guitar part key is that Jimmy is playing ahead of the band. It's like John was trying to pull him back in that section. That's how to nail the feel. Great vid! I'll be watching more!

[@EternallyThankful-os6pz]

There's some time imperfections in "Stairway" as well...LZ were such masterful musicians I've always been convinced they did it purposefully !! Adds a certain curiosity to them that enhances the richness of their music - timeless works of art !!!!

[@BosomNogomPanjIzvali]

I've been a LZ fan since I was a little child, influenced by older sibling. Later on, I had some difficulties in a classical music school, meaning I would be late on my first beat more than often, especially in solfegio class. My guitar teacher had some hard time fixing my timing, until she heard that my favorite band was LZ. We spent 3 months playing and listening to some 4/4 classical music and 4/4 rock bands, focusing on my timing problem, and boy did we fix it. I had some struggles but thanks to that I'm more diverse musician now.

[@danielgoncalves3980]

I think that the only element on Led Zeppelin that really was on time was Jonesy, but even him had some "strange" arrangements on the keys. Thats, in my opinion, one of the things that makes them great - the perfect imperfection.

[@alanagottalottasay997]

JPJ has said the whole point of the riffs in the song were written to not make sense and the beat not be easily/quickly followed...they were comfortably on top of their game and the music world so they said "fuck it" lets show a sense of humor and at the same time create some deceptively heavy/badass riffs....

[@deft__12]

The fortnite guy was in Led Zeppelin???

[@-Thunder]

Didn't JPJ write the Black Dog lyric? Pretty sure the whole weird time signature thing was his idea. He wanted a looping riff that was off time but came back into time at the end. I think.

[@ryanburchett8455]

I think your channel would benefit from more videos like this one. It is cool to cover various riffs and unique aspects of the music we all love. It was great that you included tabs and discussed the timing signatures.

[@nightjaronthegate]

The part of the riff played in this video is all 4/4. My bars are half as long as the 4/4 bars shown with the note values doubled; I use 8th notes where the video shows 16ths and quarters where it shows 8ths. The tricky bit is the one bar of 9/8 where this stops, just before the "Oh yeah." The tab in the video has it all wrong from the second note, which is the first note of the bar. The time signature changes are not required and all the bar lines are in the wrong places. In "bars" 10 and 11 there should be ten consecutive 16th notes but there are only nine, and the 5,6,7,7 on the fifth string across the bar line should be 5,6,7,5,7. In the video it is played as 5,6,7,7,7. The repeated figure starting on the sixth string in bar 9 is nine 8th notes long so its position relative to the beat is different each time it's played. This contributes to the out of time feel, with the top note first a quarter ahead of the snare, then an 8th, and on the same beat the third time, but good drumming enhances the rhythmic oddity. Lining the music up on a grid is autotune for timing and has the same sort of effect on expression, though without the dire effect on the tonal quality of voices.

[@thedoorsbest]

Man, your content is still fire. Keep it up.

[@jjohnson8977]

So fire

[@courtcat339]

I’ve always loved the interaction between the guitar and drums in Black Dog. It just never made sense to me, and, as you said, it has baffled me along with tons of other guitarists for many years. But despite its unconventional groove, Black Dog will always be one of my favorite rock songs and one of the most remembered in history, which really speaks to how great Led Zeppelin is and how much the band contributed to the development of music as a whole. By the way, if you listen closely to the very beginning of the song, you can hear John Bonham click his drumsticks an eighth note before Jimmy Page comes in. The whole thing throws you off. And then when Bonham comes in with the late kick while Jimmy’s playing the riff, you’re like, “Where are we? What is going on here?” But it all sounds so together at the same time. Truly a masterpiece of music.

[@steverherb]

I've never understood how the drums are off from what the guitar is doing, yet it still fits together perfectly

[@billmozart7288]

It really speaks to Zeppelin's magic that they defy genre, ya know? I've seen them be called a metal band, now prog, Jimmy Page would randomly bust out "Burré" on stage during solos... pretty amazing for a rock and roll band.

[@gregmiller7123]

Spot on! That's the problem with trying to pigeon-hole bands into genres. Just saw Martin Barre, former guitarist of Jethro Tull, in concert doing the whole Aqualung album. How Tull went from hard rock like that to the English-Folk music of Songs From The Wood shows how you don't have to be one or the other. In It Might Get Loud, Page explains how he turned a classical riff and basically played it backwards to create the great Kashmir!

[@redrick8900]

@@gregmiller7123 Being in a genre isn't being pigeon holed. The Beatles are still a rock band no matter how many revolution 9's and when I'm 64's they put out.

[@gregmiller7123]

@@redrick8900 My point was that labeling a group a certain type of genre automatically causes some people to tune out. And saying the Beatles were a rock band just means that their music fell into about any of the about 500 sub-genres of rock. I'm 64, my dad knew the Beatles were going to cause the world to end and now I hear them in the elevator. From metal to prog to alt to pop, when you put those words in front of rock there will be those that will punch out. Thanks for your input!

[@redrick8900]

@@gregmiller7123 I don't care what idiots do.

[@joaquinlezcano2372]

Fortunately nowadays we know much better

[@theopinson3851]

I mean…Stairway to Heaven is basically the prototype of an epic prog composition. And yeah that was all Bonham’s feel…pushed it to the most extreme on Over the Hills and Far Away. He’s like a full 16th note behind lol it works though!

[@StratsRUs]

JPJ wrote the riff.He wanted it to be too difficult for other bands to cover.Led Zep themselves found it too difficult to adhere to live, so they resorted back to 4/4.

[@mikemcintosh9933]

Well produced, funny, informative. Great content. I've taken these songs for granted for so long. It's refreshing to have them explored in this way, and my joy for them rekindled.

[@mikeriesco6174]

Regarding the part where there's the repeating riff that finally returns to the main riff (4:34) -- to help play it properly and have it "sync up" with the drums correctly, I think of it as a 7-note pattern (played over a standard 4/4 drum groove), that repeats 4 times -- and on the 4th repeat it morphs back up into the main riff. SO -- the thing to get right is which of the "7 notes" in the pattern syncs up with the drum's downbeat, and thus should be "accented" in your mind. On repeat #1, it's note 4 of the pattern. On repeat #2, it's note 3 of the pattern. On repeat #3 it's note 2 of the pattern. And on last repeat it's note 1 of the pattern. If you concentrate on matching (and accenting) those particular notes with the drum's downbeat on each repeat, it all works...

[@LosNoviembres]

this is exactly the way I feel it. the phrase is displaced by an extra 1/16th note each time through of the 4xs. this is done in jazz all the time where a riff is placed on different beats.the reason most people can't feel it this way is that their underlying sense of time isn't strong enough ... so for instance they would have trouble counting through a Buddy Rich drum solo. it's a shame because when this is the case so many miss out on the cool ways phrases can feel utterly different over steady batches of 1/8ths or in the case of Black Dog 1/16ths

[@mikeriesco6174]

@@LosNoviembres The verse part in "Puttin' On the Ritz" is an example of what you're saying...

[@LosNoviembres]

@@mikeriesco6174 and the repeated phrase in "Fascinating Rhythm" or Steve Vai's Attitude Song.

[@markp1549]

The drum intro to Rock and Roll and the part just before the solo in Stairway to Heaven always stump me as a drummer.

[@tezzerii]

@markp1549 The problem with Rock and Roll is that you tend to assume it starts on beat 1, but it actually starts on the & of 3, and it's 4/4 all through. Check out "Keep a Knocking" by Little Richard - that's where Bonzo pinched it from. Stairway to Heaven, the problem is the other way round - you tend to hear the 3 note riff starting on the & of 4, to land on the 1 - but the first note is on the 1 ! From the last note of the bit before, that last note being the 1, count 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - Dadadan 2 Dadadan 4 Dadadan Dan Dan Dan - - - -hope that makes some sense =o)

[@markp1549]

@ Thanks - I’ll work on them

[@tezzerii]

@@markp1549 hope you work it out - it took me a bit of working out ! Be happy to help more if you need it

[@tedtronson]

Great vid! Excellent call out on time sig changes and staying ahead of the snare. I have always felt slightly off when playing Black Dog. Another thing I noticed is you slide up to the 7th fret on the low E string while you are playing. The tab you screenshot doesn't have hammer on, pull offs, or slides. I have adapted hammering on the 9th fret on the G string from 7th fret in place of hitting 5th fret on B string. Same note but expands even more on the fretboard as this song is an impressive one to watch played.

[@nightjaronthegate]

The part of the riff played in this video is all 4/4. My bars are half as long as the 4/4 bars shown with the note values doubled; I use 8th notes where the video shows 16ths and 1/4s where it shows 8ths. The tricky bit is the one bar of 9/8 where this stops, just before the "Oh yeah." The tab in the video has it all wrong from the second note, which is the first note of the bar. The time signature changes are not required and all the bar lines are in the wrong places. In "bars" 10 and 11 there should be ten consecutive 16th notes but there are only nine, and the 5,6,7,7 on the fifth string across the bar line should be 5,6,7,5,7. In the video it is played as 5,6,7,7,7. The repeated figure starting on the sixth string in bar 9 is nine 8th notes long so its position relative to the beat is different each time it's played. This contributes to the out of time feel, with the top note first a quarter ahead of the snare, then an 8th, and on the same beat the third time, but good drumming enhances the rhythmic oddity. Lining the music up on a grid is autotune for timing and has the same sort of effect on expression, though without the dire effect on the tonal quality of voices.

[@sethparker3381]

FYI, I think "Friends" was tuned to CACGCE rather than the Open C tuning. Page also used it on "Bron-Yr-Aur" and "Poor Tom". Your point stands about the alternate tunings though.

[@a2ndopynyn]

I've argued for Zep as a prog band for years. It's just that most prog bands have a full time keyboard player acting as the "orchestra" and Zep only did that occasionally, with stuff like Kashmir or The Rain song. But a song like Four Sticks definitely qualifies as prog. Hell, so does Stairway!

[@paradox7743]

So true- The Song Remains the Same is another perfect example which sets up the RAIN SONG...

[@JimiHendrixEX]

Since ive been lovong you os a progressive blues definetely. Perfect example is version From a HTWWW. If we compare a hard rock from 70 to zepps we see that Zeps define it in first to albums and after that they do much more. Maybe Presence is a most guitar zep hard rock album after Led Zeppelin 2

[@joaquinlezcano2372]

People forget that songwriting plays a special role in defining prog rock. You have first very ambitious songwriting, songs that tackle in different sections. Not really much into solos but rather full sections and passages, a very precious kind of sound in the approach... Obviously is not that simple, but there's very few songs of led zeppelin that actually count as prog, like Stairway to heaven and Kashmir, for example. They got the ambitious songwriting, different sections, a solo that doesn't really works as a solo but as a passage to the other sections in one song, odd time signatures in the other... Four sticks only had the odd time signatures part, which is not enough to be considered prog

[@joaquinlezcano2372]

If we only assigned odd signatures as the one and only characteristic of prog, then a lot of bands would be considered prog and the term would lost sense

[@a2ndopynyn]

@@joaquinlezcano2372 - Four Sticks had odd time, synths simulating an orchestral feel, a bluesy lyric, layers of acoustic and electric guitars, and finishes off with Plant doing a vocal solo - in a 24-note (quarter-tone) scale!! Brother, if that's not mufuggin' PROG, then what the hell IS??!!

[@santiagosombra5622]

As I read Led Zeppelin I clicked

[@JKyle-nf4lv]

Me 2

[@aspect9665]

I just thought about this dean,epiphone,fender, and Ibanez all have a ukulele it would be cool if PRS had one

[@CommanderClyde]

Based on this, Soundgarden is a prog band. Alternate tunings, crazy time signatures, time changes in songs, the works. Not your average "grunge" band and also my favorite band. 🤘

[@sarcophage]

Yes

[@barringtonwomble4713]

Superunknown probably has more alternate tunings than any Led Zeppelin album.

[@jperryfan]

What's also interesting that no one mentions is that when they preformed it live they used the beginning of Out On The Tiles for the intro.

[@Brmlk]

First of all, I like the video and appreciate the work you put into it. I have seen cover bands that have been playing Zeppelin 30+ years and they still don't have the songs figured out. So don't feel bad when I say: you played none of the songs correctly here, and Black Dog isn't your only problem. But the main reason your Black Dog interpretation isn't sounding right, is because you're playing an entirely wrong note ("wrong" meaning that Page and Jones aren't playing that note). Also, just because the recording is different than a "quantized" version doesn't mean the timing is wrong. The word "ritardando" has been around hundreds of years. I like how you broke it down and highlighted it tho.

[@richardclark.]

Yeah, he missed the dissonant D push in Four Sticks as well, which means he is playing Whole Lotta Love incorrectly too.

[@belectronix]

I noticed that too, missing the d note before going back to the main riff (black dog) Fairly obvious I would’ve thought

[@barringtonwomble4713]

Also the tuning on Friends isn't CGCGCE. It's CACGCE

[@michaelmclaughlin6376]

John Paul Jones said that there were indeed all these timings in the riff, but that Bonham played a straight 4/4 beat which was fine because by the time the riff finished, it was back on top of the 4/4 beat anyway.

[@tommyknoble5365]

Alright Tyler you convinced me, I’ll buy a Les Paul !

[@wesleytrott6397]

I loved your rant at the end dude! Keep preaching that stuff!

[@jabberdouche]

Even as a kid (I'm 52 now) & years before I picked up a guitar, I always thought that song sounded weird with the drums. I even saw Bonham once opening for the Cult and they played it ... and it was weird. That sounded like a bible verse. "And God so heard the sound of Black Dog, and Black Dog was weird!" Bonham 3:18

[@doktabob328]

‘He that saith”The black dog is weird” knows not the truth - the weirdness is in the looking.’ - Melodius Qark, ‘What’s Jesus Laughing About ?’

[@jabberdouche]

@@doktabob328 i think we have the makings of a rock bible. Holy Trinity is Little Richard, Jimmy Hendrix, and Johnny Ramone.

[@jjohnson8977]

Black dogs that. Climb ladders are.good luck omens

[@quinsattorney]

Totally agree. Thanks for touching on the same depth of interest in these wonderful song structures. I literally have torn apart these same parts in an attempt to find that "feel" in their creation, but have always failed since I have no talent, and at the most, it always comes out like a drunk stumbling down the fret board.

[@steveklick]

I can count it, I know exactly what it is. I can count all that stuff in my head because I can feel it.

[@BaghNakh1]

It's not just the drums. The guitar also has a "weird tempo" thing just before the "late beat" of the drums. For what I understand, it's similar to the thing in Kashmir, like in the last part of that section, both the guitar and the drums have a different time signature. In the Black Dog audio you provided its impossible to notice it but in the original audio it's super clear that the guitar finishes that section in a super weird time signature which accentuates even more the "late beat" that the drum is keeping. It's like the guitar and the drums are walking together during that section and at the very end, the guitar "trips" and the drums manages to catch him before he falls which obviously puts the drums out of beat and then as the main riff comes back, poof, they're back at it again and walking together at the same rhythm (lmao thats the best way I could come up to explain the time signature thing)

[@sledsports]

You nailed it. Seems to me that there's only 2 people on the internet that can nail Jimmy page and that is you and Rick Beato. You both are epic

[@RCSkunkWorX]

💯

[@Mellevaelslide]

There's other guy, some old long hair fella that nails even Heartbreaker solo... Search for "Composser analyses Led Zeppelin" or something like that

[@nightjaronthegate]

Rick Beato made a mess of Black Dog in his Top 10 Led Zeppelin Riffs and it's wrong in this video too. All the bar lines in the tab are in the wrong places and the time signature should be 4/4 throughout with one bar of 9/8 at the end. The 6,7,7 At the beginning of bar 11 should be 6,7,5,7. In this video it is played as 6,7,7,7 and Beato adds an extra note, playing 6,7, 7 (on 6th string), 5, 7.

[@sledsports]

@@nightjaronthegate post up your video of you doing it.

[@nightjaronthegate]

@@sledsports There is another error but not in the guitar. In Zeppelin's recording Jones plays triplets, twelve notes to Page's eight, from the beginning of "bar 4," but here the triplets are in the bass drum, they start later in the "bar"...and they're not triplets.

[@jonathanstrand2474]

Fabulous break down, and after you “fixed” the timing you absolutely nailed the part. Which begs the question how much credit did Bonham get from “writing” that drum part? Page was brilliant because he knew when to stay out of the way, yes feel, his drummer had feel, don’t F with it!!! Go with it! A lot of people don’t have great things to say about his drumming, but The proof is in the pudding, they were a great band,…who splintered and collapsed when they lost their drummer. Or Keith the wild man, same thing, when he fell apart the who really never recovered, or Jim Gordon. Drummers as a rule are a little off, sometimes in a good way, could Mahuvishnu been what they were without Billy Cobham? I think not!

[@Michael-bl4no]

Great video! I recently joined a local Zep tribute that was already established and I’m a few months in. Black Dog is a nightmare to lock down - if you’re trying! I ended up on the path you took, learning the whole thing as a series of riffs and just playing along with the recordings. Have you tested your “late drum” theory vs. live versions of Black Dog like on SRTS or the O2 show with Jason? I’m curious how Jason handled that section! Thanks to you, I can prove my sanity on this song! I find the best way is to just hope you and the bassist are on point and plow through it. Definitely think it’s one of the oddest songs I’ve played...and I used to do Chili Peppers, Kiss (Ace), and Rob Zombie (J5)! Plus, as a Rush fan, I love off-time innovative stuff...

[@swans0ng759]

Excellent stuff my friend. Not often you get a new outlook on Led Zep music. I not only envy your guitar playing prowess but also the room you are sitting in!

[@niku30504]

4:34 I’ve been listening to this for 50 years, and I still can’t figure out how to play it. 😩

[@mikeriesco6174]

If this helps... I think of it as a 7-note pattern (played over a standard 4/4 drum groove), that repeats 4 times -- and on the 4th repeat it morphs back up into the main riff. SO -- the thing to get right is which of the "7 notes" in the pattern syncs up with the drum's downbeat, and thus should be "accented" in your mind. On repeat #1, it's note 4 of the pattern. On repeat #2, it's note 3 of the pattern. On repeat #3 it's note 2 of the pattern. And on last repeat it's note 1 of the pattern. If you concentrate on matching (and accenting) those particular notes with the drum's downbeat on each repeat, it all works...

[@abrahamruiz8473]

Black Dog was the song that inspired me to pick up guitar because of how mesmerizing that riff/timing were to me

[@rlm913]

Led Zeppelin was my favorite band back then and I bought each Album as the were released. We did not use that term "Prog", It was Rock. Some used the term "hard rock" because it wasn't the Carpenters. You play their songs very well and I get where you are going with it.

[@olafruckelshausen5911]

I´m not a musician, but I never considered BD as hard to hum along with or to repeat or recall it in my mind. It comes very natural to me. "The rain song" is the hard one for me, no matter if I just try to float with the "feeling" or rip it apart and try to deal with the bits.

[@andrewmize823]

Keep in mind that when Led Zeppelin came around, terms like "heavy metal" and "progressive rock" hadn't been codified as specific genres. Zep was part of the vanguard--the terminology came about a little later. They both had roots in the late 60's, but the stereotypes of metal fans as boneheads and prog fans as insufferable music nerds didn't come into play until the 70's.

[@davebelknap3220]

I remember watching a documentary years ago where Jimmy related Bonham tried all sorts of patterns with this part. During the sessions he decided to play straight 4/4 through it and that was when the band agreed he found the right part.

[@candyman4778]

Led Zeppelin is such a cool band

[@Ihitthings3]

Hi cool vid. But I have a bone to pick. Four sticks: the main phrase - 4m of 5/4 followed by 2m of 6/4, it's not all 5/4. Count through it again. The Ocean: has metric modulation at the end where the last 3 beats of the 7/8 bar, the syncopated rhythm sets up the medium swing tempo. I recommend my students learn this one specifically because of the interesting rhythmic elements. The Crunge: IMO is an attempt at a James Brown style groove and they just did their thing and the 9/8 pattern emerged. Kashmir: I guess that's a good was to describe it, but if you just think in 4/4, you can feel the guitar rhythm dance around the '1' Black dog: I concur, is a bitch to play correctly. You can hear Bonham click his sticks to cue the band. This one, I just try to feel it.

[@desertriderukverun1002]

It's the curse of the music student and the music professor, they hear tunings and time signatures and don't here the music. Great music pulls you in and you don't pay attention to the timing or the tuning. Great musicians don't bound themselves with constraints of tunings and timing. Get lost in the music of Zeppelin, Hendricks, Van Halen, and all the other greats. They weren't playing sloppy, they were just playing, and we were just listening

[@LThibx]

Fantastic analysis. So right. Sometimes it's just what you feel. Difficult part sometimes is to get the others to feel it the way you do. That is what is so magical about Zepp...and Rush was the kings of time signature manipulation. Great video.

[@jacobgetlan5609]

Rick Beato would love the ending of this video

[@onlyfromadistance7326]

Yup. Nothing better than playing live with the band...

[@robertt4814]

One other interesting "time" factor in Black Dog is that during the rest, Bonham brings the band back in with a click of his sticks, not a counted measure of time. - BTW great analysis.

[@affordableislandlife3125]

"No matter how many times you play it just simply does not sound the same" That because you are a mortal Led Zeppelin are Gods

[@paulsmith.6677]

They're definitely on the progressive end of the musical spectrum, but inventing and innovating blues-rock certainly required a lot of experimentation. I thought this fact was well known. I've always felt that their progressiveness was the major part of their appeal.

[@scottleatherwood3033]

This Black Dog-Riff was originally created by John Paul Jones on his bass. Page just adapted it for his guitar.

[@Mrjustice89]

Led Zeppelin was really prog for its time. All the odd time signatures the cool lyrics. (Obviously whole lotta love and black dog are cliche lyrics for rock) but Zeppelin definitely got that prog thing down after led zeppelin 2

[@moncorp1]

I think Black Dog was the song I heard Jones talk about once where he said all 4 of them are performing in different times. He wasn't playing bass to either Bonham's or Pages time and that Plant was singing over the top of all 3 of them. Very interesting indeed.

[@fozlike]

There's definitely an incorrect note in that turnaround Tyler - I guess you fall into the catagory of everyone too haha!

[@Mob-367]

Always knew there was something weird with Black Dog. When you bang your head left and right with the snare and kick drum, you have to do a stutter and then your are off beat and all of a sudden you are banging your head left and right with the kick drum and snare!! Friggin best song ever. My favourite of all time

[@pakpakz4597]

yessss

[@jamal69jackson77]

Man, this guitarr riff is hot! Crazy how just a late drum beat makes it feel just right!

[@gregfemrite3150]

There is no better band ever than Led Zeppelin, other bands try, but never add up

[@danielchapman3875]

Led Zeppelin has been one of my favourite bands since I was a kid and will always be. Have you heard of Dred Zeppelin? They're a band that mixes Elvis songs with Led Zep songs but play them in the style of reggae. Also what do you think of Animals as Leaders

[@toddpearson6764]

LZ 4 was one of the first lps that I bought back in the 70’s Black Dog was pure masterpiece and obviously played differently live and will always be an all time favorite, if you listen to page during interviews the guy was definitely ahead of his time producing amazing music with limited tech availability at the time.

[@ahcubac]

Ha Ha! I have always enjoyed your playing and your videos!! But when you mentioned Frame by Frame from KC Discipline, well my opinion of you (as if you care, ha!) really elevated. Nice job and thanks for hours of instruction and entertainment!!

[@tedwojtasik8781]

For people who thought Page was sloppy, there is a classically trained, master level guitarist on KZbin who did an analysis of Page's overal playing, both studio and live up to 1973. He does not include the latter touring years because during the 75' tour Page was playing with a broken ring finger on his fretting hand and had to adjust to a three-finger technique. This is also when alcohol started to become a problem. If you listen to the boots from 75', Page plays fine up to Stairway, a bit sloppier than 73' but not by much. The problems start during the encores once the booze kicked in during their 10 min break before the encores. There are some horribly bad encores on that tour. By 77' Page was balls deep in both heroin and alcohol addiction, however, about 1/3 of the shows in 77' were absolutely brilliant with Page playing better than ever, just to be followed by three absolutely shit performances so, there is that. 79' had one of their best concerts ever on July 24th. 80' is a mixed bag. Anyway, the scholar said Page used all sorts of little tricks that he did 100% on purpose to add a sense of feel and organic texture. He partial slid notes w pull-off's or a single hammer followed by a mute. He would add flat and sharp here and there as well for more feel and many times would purposely tune one string off, or even remove the string entirely. The engineers Page works with corroborated this and when pointed out by those engineers that it made the line a bit sloppy, Page would counter that's not sloppy, that's texture and that is warmth, the song is alive. Without that "slop" is would be boring and flat.

[@Joe-mz6dc]

Good synopsis.

[@alvarhanso6310]

The problem with ignoring his sloppy playing is that Duane Allman, Dickey Betts, Jerry Garcia, Brian May, John McLaughlin, Larry Carlton, David Gilmour, Skunk Baxter and so many others of that era could play shows and rip their solos without sloppiness. The sloppiness to me is not as forgivable as with Hendrix, but his sloppy playing annoys me. His precision on Band of Gypsies is a reason why: he's so much better when he is precise. Same for Page, but he didn't seem to care. Improvisation is not an excuse either when, again, most of the guys above would play extended, clean solos. Intoxication, also not an excuse, because, again several of the guys above were on another planet while ripping clean solos. And Duane Allman was a big Page fan, but was very disappointed when he saw Zeppelin at the Boston Tea Party, partly due to his sloppy playing, and that was 1969.

[@gibsonfan159]

You can write a 500 page novel trying to justify Page's "techniques" but at the end of the day there's overwhelming evidence he was just drunk as shit between 75-85. You don't need to be a classical music scholar to understand that.

[@tedwojtasik8781]

@@gibsonfan159 As I said Page was exactly that from 77'-83', I fail to see your point. He was clean and playing brilliantly by 84' as proven by the Firm's performance's that year. Again, 75' I don't "fully" blame Page for as he was touring with a broken ring finger on his fretting hand, however how he addressed it was dumb (self-medicating) which is why he was good up to Stairway, then went to shit during the encores when the booze kicked in. IMO the entire problem with Page and Zep in general from 75'-80' was one man and it was not Page, it was Peter Grant. As great a manager as Grant was, by 74' he became a major drug addict himself and was no longer capable of managing the band. A sober manager never would have allowed the 75' tour to happen after Page broke his finger. A sober manager never would have allowed Plant to perform sick and destroy his voice in the process. A sober manager never would have let Page or Bonham tour in 77' or 80'. I justify nothing, I simply give an accurate accounting. No one with a functioning brain can listen to live Zeppelin from 68'-73' and say Page was sloppier than his contemporaries, in fact, I would say from 67'-71' in particular Page was more technical and more fluid live than most of his peers with the exception of Beck & Blackmore.

[@gibsonfan159]

@tedwojtasik8781 the broken finger bit doesn't stand because he played better when his finger first broke than he did later in the year. I never mentioned pre 75 but he did in fact have off nights in the earlier years as well, though not near as many. Live Aid was 85, Atlantic 40th was 88, both were near disasters from Page. My point is you can blame whatever you want but Page was infamously sloppy.

[@sweptinblack]

Lol this video when you're missing one of the signature moves in the riff. At the very end of the main black dog riff, you hit the A chord, then bend a 3rd fret G on the E string up to A. It's quick, but a bit of that dissonance where you're getting the open A and 5th fret low E string A to meet. That's a big part of the flavor of the riff. Great video, over my 20 years playing guitar I've come back to this one over and over. On the topic of how prog Zeppelin was, another heavy riff that is TOUGH to get right-- Out on the Tiles. I think it has the same issue as Black Dog, where it just doesn't sound right without the Bonham drums. When it comes to chords, the Rain Song and Ten Years Gone are next level for the time. Let's be real here, we all say can say we know Stairway. Does it really sound like the recordings though? What normal person has an electric 12 string lol.

[@mohabexpert123]

Ay

[@cardboard316]

This a fantastic lesson, I know nothing about music theory, and as a matter of fact nothing else. But when I play in time it works.. even if I hit a few notes. Keep teaching, we the world love ya man

[@GuitarZombie]

your version was off. don't hate me

[@plattecitypaul9983]

Just a bit.

[@automaticraccon]

I used to adore Led Zeppelin. Then I made the grave mistake of watching the movie The Song Remains The Same. I cringed so hard I never really recovered. I still listen sometimes but I cannot forget the movie. I am fairly sure Spinal Tap was triggered also by that movie.

[@csweat4450]

Sweeeet!

[@guitarandotherthings6090]

Playing that middle part on Heartbreaker correctly note for note is undoubtedly the most challenging riff from Led Zeppelin.

[@treyxaviermusic]

the unhinged boomer rant at the end 🤣

[@The-Musicians-Edge]

I literally scared my dogs laughing so hard at that

[@rapid13]

Gen X, too. Hit me right in the feels.

[@DayBeforeTomorrow]

If I might make a slight correction... Led Zeppelin wasn't a 'classic rock band'. They were 'the classic rock band'! They came roaring out of the gate in '68 and never looked back! They set the bar because by far, they were the best there's ever been!