MUST WATCH BEFORE BUYING A HEAT PUMP! What to ask your installer/surveyor | Consumer Advice

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

I was going to do my own video on this once I was ready. No bloody point now! 😄

[@richardwaller7721]

That's really helpful - wish I'd had this to hand when my installer visited. Gives me confidence in my ASHP installer but also provides some new Qs to ask. In what's a quite bewildering field for the consumer, this is just the sort of clarity we need...

[@UrbanPlumbers]

That is the video to send to all potential clients! Great !

[@OddityHarrison]

It really is!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@OddityHarrison are you guys doing the video side of this?

[@OddityHarrison]

@@UrbanPlumbers Adam and Patrick write all the content! I just produce it for them 👍

[@HeatGeek]

We have exclusivity Simon lol

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@HeatGeek you know that I do everything myself mate ! Well apart for MCS - lol You guys just forced me to start shooting in 4K - lol. Good production btw.

[@leolui4039]

Keep up the good work guys. You’re the future of the industry!

[@davidreece1642]

I've had two quotes, both with flow temps of 50C @ delta 23C (so -3 external to 20C internal). One wants to replace microbore and 7 rads, while the other wants to replace microbore and all rads plus an addition rad to boost heating in our 28m2 lounge. Both companies have "measured up" and derived similar space heating energy requirements (kW/yr )of 29678 v 27883. SCOPs of 3.5 shown on 17kW ASHP. EPC cert score of C/72 points so a fairly well insulated house. Who's right, who knows?

[@pmb9172]

We have had a quote for a need of 2. By 12kw Mitsubishi units , a flow of 50 and scop 3.66. To be fair it will be three floors about 460sq mtrs. Working scop was a bit finger in air because at point of quote insufficient accurate info was available

[@rob-stewart]

Would have been great to have this content a few months ago while looking for an installer! We've gone hybrid, but in a 280sq/m fairly old leaky house I think it's probably a fair use case for it with our fairly modern gas condensing boiler. Other quotes were pushing 22kw twin systems, but the financial outlay was immediately prohibitive. Hopefully won't have much reliance on gas as, over time, we increase the solid wall external insulation of the house, plus better loft insulation and upgrading rads, to keep the pump as efficient as can be. Looking forward to the rest of the series of consumer focused videos 👍

[@Mtematiks]

Oversized heatpump is not an issue , apart from the initial higher cost for the unit and the space for it, don't worry! Bear in mind, that when the temperature outside going dow to -5 or -10 , that "high" COP is going from 4.5 to 1.8 , but this is something that you NOT hear in this cnanel so often 😉 The same goes for hybrid systems, which are GREAT on this temperatures, as gas is used for backup, when you start be INEFICENT with the HP, because is minus 7/10. In this situation, with COP 1.8, this means, that blamed "high" COP is going to sleep, and you are using the HP almost as a normal heater...

[@patrickwheeler2646]

@@Mtematiks this is complete misinformation, firstly oversized heat pumps are bad, not if it is by a couple of kw but if it's grossly over it will cycle and massively increase the running costs, secondly we are talking about the UK in our videos which rarely if ever drops below -4°c and thr design outside temp in our region in the South is only -2°c. If the outside is colder than that the cop could drop for a day or two but the seasonal efficiency will remain almost unaffected.

[@Mtematiks]

@@patrickwheeler2646 What COP you have on -5? May be 2? It is working OK till 3-4 degreese. Below 0 COP is going in vacation... CORRECT ME if I am wrong. If I am running a HP in not insulated house, and my HP going for one month with a COP of 1.8 - aka it outputs 3 KWts instead of 10, so first, I will suffer cold in y house and 2nd , the bill WILL BE STRATOSFERIC, especially after October in UK... Another thing- If my sistem is with oversized pump, but I use a big buffer tank which is inert, so I can control the HP from the temp of the buffer with a thermostat. In this situation I will have a lot of KWs for the colder days if needed! 10% more can be done in new insulkated house. If you have existing system and you join a HP and use the pellets/gas/coal to HELP in the colder month, I think this is the bes solution! Obviusly install hybryd from scrach is not cost effective! My 2 cents... I am not a pro, but I design, and read a lot on this topic in the years, as I project my systems myself.

[@patrickwheeler2646]

@Matematiks yes I'll correct you because you are wrong, -5 is a very rate occurance and even when it happens it is not sustained for longer than a few hours but let's go with that anyway. A Vaillant aroTherm Plus at -5 with a 55° flow temp will hit a scop of 3.1 still, in fact there is no point at which it will go below 3 unless it's defective in some way. We have a heat pump for our office and it has never gone below a cop of 3 despite it being a 1960s building with normal pipes, we have upgraded the rads now to maximise the efficiency but it was OK before. Oversizing can be eased with a buffer but there are other inefficiencies there also, we go into distortion in another video.

[@rob-stewart]

@@patrickwheeler2646 According to the datasheet, for the 16kw unit the SCOP is 3.59 at 50 degrees (which our house comfortably runs at when I set my Gas Boiler flow to 50). In theory if my gas boiler is 90% efficient (pretty much the best is could be) and using the new April price cap gas cost at 7p that's 7.78p per heat unit. With electric at 28p and a scope at 3.59 that's 7.80p per unit, which is very close and would only take adjusting the flow on the ASHP by a small amount, e.g. to 48 degrees, to better it.

[@JohnBell-rf6oj]

When I first started to look into HSHP in 2021, I got two quotes for my 1910 two-bedroomed 100 sq meter country cottage. One calculated heat loss as 29597 watts and recommended a Grant Aerona³ HPID17R32 17kW ASHP. The other, almost certainly more accurately, calculated heat loss as 7981 watts and recommended a 8.5kW Mitsubishi ECODAN Air Source Heat Pump. Just how is the average householder supposed to know what is correct? It's a minefield.

[@HeatGeek]

By checking against our 'what size heat pump' video perhaps.. your right it's a sorry state though

[@jammil2786]

Useful video, if you've got access to your gas consumption then you can check your peak and average heating. Did this for last year and confirmed the instantaneous matched the boiler at ~20kW but the 3, 6 and 12 hour averages were ~13, 10 & 9 respectively, with the highest for when it was -5°C outside and 20-30 kph wind in Feb 2020

[@sic1038]

Cracking. Me thinks the quote I had for 14kW may have been a bit pessimistic for my early 2000s built semi!

[@patrickwheeler2646]

It could be correct if the house is quite large or you have a lot of glass. The installer needs to show their heat loss before you should accept their quote though .

[@sic1038]

True enough and tbf to them it was just an estimate based off my annual gas usage. But ours isn’t big nor has loads of glass so hopefully it’d be a lot less

[@patrickwheeler2646]

@@sic1038 obviously its always a good idea to get a second (at least) opinion. Have a look at the find a heat geek map on our website, hopefully we've trained someone near you.

[@vlodski73]

Really appreciate your podcast. Full of knowledge and very substantive !!! Thank you !!!

[@barryhogan2168]

A point well made regarding the qualifications and experience of the person specifying, installing and commissioning your system. There is a vast difference between a salesperson, surveyor, technician and engineer. As a chartered professional engineer I often find the usage of the term "engineer" is abused in this country. It might be worth clarifying what education and experience sets a heating engineer apart from a technician. For example, to obtain professional chartered engineer status you typically would need a Masters degree in engineering (4 years) and 5 years+ experience, as a minimum, in your engineering field which would be challenged at a chartership interview. That person is then entitled to use CEng as a post-nominal.

[@HeatGeek]

Personally I think people get a bit pretensious with the term. The dictionary definition is "a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures". There is no mention of specific training or qualification.

[@barryhogan2168]

@@HeatGeek Exactly, but when you are trying to provide confidence that the person carrying out the work is a suitably qualified experienced person (SQEP) if you are having to ask a member of the public to ask a series of questions, which they may not understand or be bamboozled by the answers, then the industry will always be plagued by charletons (especially where there is government grant money involved). I know if I'm dealing with an engineer who is chartered then they have met a certain attainment and experience level. Is there anything equivalent in the heating engineering arena that you and others can point to or even establish to provide that confidence? Engineering as a discipline is waining in this country. In order to attract the best and brightest we may need to adjust perceptions of what it means to be an engineer. www.imeche.org/news/news-article/title-dreams-can-a-protected-'eng.'-title-boost-the-status-of-engineering

[@HeatGeek]

@@barryhogan2168 that's what we are trying with the heat geek accreditation I talked about at the end.

[@salvadordavinci7]

Very informative thank you, greetings from the Netherlands. Sadly no dutch installers did the heat geek course...yet!

[@Daniells1982]

From a none heating engineer but someone who is interested in the evolving heat pump market, the top and bottom of it is starting with good design factoring in all the potential issues that can lead to poor efficiency, which makes perfect sense. Being mis-sold a heat pump by a used car salesman is where the problem starts which you've rightly raised in the video. With the government promoting heat pumps and offering funding would it better for the government to control the design side of it by employing competent designers, willing to invest the time to produce a quality design? This info could then be used for tender purposes for installers to price on. I know it may overcomplicate things but might avoid the funding being abused and ultimately benefit the client to ensure they have an efficient system that functions well. Just me throwing out my thoughts.

[@HeatGeek]

That's where mcs are going. Our course is going to be a certificate to entry too that.

[@Swwils]

Feb 2020 new build supplied with 30kW 80C flow temp gas boiler and people say the industry is OK?

[@NikolaiBeier]

45 Celsius above best practice. :-( What a waste

[@Sean006]

Criminal.....the government is to blame because they set the regulations for new builds.

[@Swwils]

@@Sean006as far as I can tell in England there currently is no regulation on boiler size or flow temp. Essentially aslong as the boiler "can" perform to the required efficiency as noted in the database then it will pass SAP and there is no requirement for the actual installation to be efficient. Luckily this is addressed in the next edition of the building regs where flow temp is defined like it is in Scotland and Wales. If anyone knows different then let me know.

[@johntisbury]

Excellent content and approach. Just hope lots of consumers get to see this as it helps them to see the red flags.

[@brackcycle9056]

Great advice , you guys should be given TV show.. ................where can i find info about the hamsters in wheels solution? it sounds amazing

[@patrickwheeler2646]

And that's exactly the kind of hijinks you can expect from our show coming to terrestrial TV this spring!

[@OddityHarrison]

Just dropping the pre-video like because you know it's going to be 🔥

[@HeatGeek]

only the best from the Oddity forge!!

[@banejovan5858]

Good video, and I am watching all your videos in the past. Can you tell me is there need to install buffer tank in a system of 180-200 m2 house? I dont want a complicated system. As you say only a heat pump and radiators. Thanx

[@robertcole7500]

I think customer education is vital, but it would appear, from your comments 3/4 through, that if you opt for a Heat Geek installer/commissioner, you avoid most if not all of the Heat Pump bear traps. Robert

[@tlangdon12]

The ‘Insulate Britain’ have a point. Unless the government and construction industry help improve insulation values across the UK, the average consumer is not going to be able to afford to run a heat pump, even if there is assistance to buy one.

[@HeatGeek]

Agree

[@sidperry7748]

Small nuclear reactors are required for our future power source, hot water piped to every house and a heat plate exchanger installed for rads and hot water , the hot water would be on a meter the same as your cold main supply to your house , no need for heat pumps for every household

[@stevekarlsen9597]

Brilliant advice....thank you 😊

[@Habel69]

Ive had a quote that says the the design flow temp is 50c with outside temp of -3.4c. Is yhis good enough? This is with undefloor heating down stairs and rads upstairs. They are going to replace 3 of the rads. I asked if they could design for a lower temp. They looked at 45 but said that all radiators would need replacing and would cost alot more. They said it can still bw run at 45c but turned up if it gets colder. Is this good advice or a lazy sytem design?

[@ignitehemi3364]

How much more electricity will a undersized heat pump use? I have a 3.5 ton, which I need a 5 ton. Will it be cost efficient to replace the unit. The unit is 4 years old.

[@gfkw47]

Like several others have said - I wish I'd found your videos before I started on this journey. But it is up and running now, In the main my Stiebel Eltron WPL 25 AS with a SCOP of 3.7 and a flow temp of 45 works well. The house is warm and comfortable most of the time, The problem I am having is with their Easytron Connect smart TRV system. In some rooms they work fine but others do not. Have you had any experience with this control system? It seems to me to be that the TRVs are reacting to the constant flow of warm/hot water in the pipes flowing into the valve and then closing them before the room has reached target temp. Not being a heating engineer this is just a guess but my thinking is that the TRVs would operate more accurately if they were mounted horizontally and at the top of the rads so they were not influenced so much by the water temp in the pipes. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks

[@davidreece1642]

May I ask what your EPC cert score is?

[@dkdanknowles]

Really useful video - thanks! Our three installers/engineers have suggested 3 different models and bad-mouthed the other engineers ("oh we would never install a Daikin..." etc.) for what they've suggested. How do I know who to trust and which model is best?! (Samsung 8kW v Daikin 9kW v Vaillant)

[@LeiChat]

Thanks for the advice. Are there any brands of air source heat pump that should be avoided? Or features/specs that make some brands/models better value for money?

[@iandale5412]

Why not take last year’s consumption divided by area as an indication of heat demand?

[@toniilievski3934]

I have around 4kw heat loss and 8kw heat pump (they were pushing for 10 :S ) , there is option to set the upper limit on the pump , would the pump run better if i put a limit to 5/6kw ? Im upgrading the radiators this week , i used your formula for the radiators and should be fine with 40C flowrate on -3 . Ty

[@HonzaZalabak]

What power of heat pump would you advice for house with 12 kw heat loss in -16°C. With average december/january average temperatures of -2°C? (Thats about 6-7 kw). Big house, well insulated. I heard that you should size the heat pump to turn on bivalent heating in -7 °C?

[@Sean006]

Great advice. Everyone thinking of getting a heat pump should watch this excellent video. Why the hell aren't the government funding such consumer advice!!! 🥴 Thankfully we have Heat Geek to gallop to the rescue in shining armour PS I see the medication is working!! 😉

[@HeatGeek]

Thanks sean 😆. Medication?

[@jankaskyevitchjellbet7293]

How humidity effects air heat pump? I live in UK and want to install the system.

[@yoshicrafto2242]

Thanks

[@gino2465]

This video has really been fair, I tell you what I am going to do. I have had a quote for a new boiler and it's an like for like. I will now have a quote from several heat pump installers and I will share my info. It's the cost I am intrested in as £2700 for a brand new boiler and that's it it will give me what I need without any additional costs. I will get back to you all.

[@HeatGeek]

If your only interested in cost, a heat pump upgrade is going to be 12,000 to 16,000. That might save you some time.

[@gino2465]

@@HeatGeek thank you for getting back to me with an honiest awnser. So my install would have to factor £15k extra for 3 phase of so my £2700 quote to heat my home and supply hot water would or could be getting onto just under £30k. My goal last year to be focil free failed and its not going to happen any time soon. Being honiest and up front shows your a good company to deal with.

[@HeatGeek]

@@gino2465 thanks, there's no getting away from its being more costly. You HAVE to believe in climate change and have a desire to lower carbon. It does not stack up if you look at it souly from a financial perspective unless your building from new or perhaps a full renovation.

[@gino2465]

@@HeatGeek I am and am trying to do the right thing but I don't have an endless supply of cash. And it's millions of other lower income families in the same situation. We all want to save the planet 100% with you.

[@HeatGeek]

@@gino2465 of course! I couldn't afford one right now either!! The gov must do more. Not all are with us though.. you'll see plenty of comments on here saying that climate change is a conspiracy unfortunately

[@devinspaul]

Hi. I’ve been quoted for 16kw pump but my house is 2600sqf with radiators so I’ve been informed this is what’s required Does that sound ok?

[@sc4114]

What type or credentials does some one need to do heat loss surveys in the UK?

[@homertrix]

How important is heat loss through the floor in the heat loss calculation? We're busy improving our thermal envelope ready for a heatpump but not really keen on digging up the concrete floor. After our improvements our heatloss is calculated to be c.8kW at -7 degrees, however over half of that is floor loss. With the concept of "heat rising", how important is the floor loss portion? Finally, one question you didn't raise is domestic hot water heating and the impact on the heatpump sizing.

[@HeatGeek]

Its just as important as walls or ceiling. its conduction not convection your calculating. Hot water is a bit potential subject, its very rare you cant just size for the building heat loss though.

[@hvacdesignsolutions]

The problem with installers is many do not now how to size a heat pump. Many end up undersized for conditions outside the pumps EN rating. They approach it like sizing a boiler. They should read the bloody install manuals.

[@HeatGeek]

Ah yes.. but luckily those engineers are also hugely over estimating heat losses so all good.

[@BillsCountrysideAdventures]

Hi, just had a install of a Vaillant AroTHERM Plus heat pump, they have installed all new 22mm pipes and rads, but wanted to keep towel rail and they only heat at the bottom. Also they added anti freeze and said it had to pump around so rads will be cold at the top. Some rads 4 days later still cold. Bad install? Also they have put a timer on immersion to run for four hours, but why not use heat pump only? Hope you can help us.

[@ChapmanPlumbing]

Yes crap install. No need for an immersion with arotherm. Take the anti free out it's crap, you want antifreeze valves instead. 22mm pipe is OK for a 5 or 3kw.. if 7 or above should have 28mm

[@BillsCountrysideAdventures]

@@ChapmanPlumbing just checked think it's a 3.5kw system

[@BillsCountrysideAdventures]

And it's got 28mm pipes from outside unit to the tank

[@ChapmanPlumbing]

@@BillsCountrysideAdventures well the pipework ls definitely not undersized lol

[@HOMEAROMAS]

Hi guys, love the channel, funny and informative. However, I'd like you to talk about AIR to AIR systems. I want to know all about them, what temps they get to at X outside temp, can they be used like a central heating system, ie timed to come on just when you need the house heated, or do they need to run all day? Do they output the air at what ever temp they can get to, or can you set the output air temp? Do they control the temp in the house, so change between heat and cool. Just as much info as you can give. Cheers, keep up the great work.

[@HeatGeek]

Coming soon. Not great for comfort imk.. Good for cooling obviously though

[@HOMEAROMAS]

@@HeatGeek I'll definitely be looking forward to that episode, as everything I have found out so far suggests they are the way to go.

[@dorsetengineering]

Can I size my ashp off the instantaneous gas consumption in kW, off my smart meter, when my non-modulating heat only boiler is firing under a CH call for heat?

[@charlespleydell6746]

I'm not a heating engineer (but do have a couple of unrelated Physics degrees). I'd say no. When your boiler is firing: it's firing on its maximum output which is a function of the boiler: not your house's requirements. In a cold winter week, read your meter at a set time of day on Monday, then read it at the same time a week later (or if your smart meter can display what you've used over a week), then divide it by 7 to get daily usage averaged over a cold week. This gives the amount of heat used in kWh your boiler is using to heat your home in a day. This is NOT what your house's requirements are , as a non-modulating heat only boiler is not as efficient as a low temp condensing boiler set up correctly, BUT it will give you an IDEA what sort of heat pump size you'll need. Best bet is to get a heat survey done by someone who knows what they're doing!

[@dorsetengineering]

@@charlespleydell6746 I’ve subsequently done a heat loss calc for the property and come out with a 6.7kW demand. Current boiler is 11kW and managed fine when there wasn’t any double glazing or loft insulation.

[@hrgdavor]

how much different is installation for using underfloor piping for both heating and cooling ?

[@ChapmanPlumbing]

None.. the flow temps for cooling are limited though to prevent condense moisture

[@hrgdavor]

@@ChapmanPlumbing I tried to look for information about cooling on your channel, do you have some pointers bout when it is worth considering (perhaps another channel that has good info on the topic like u have for heating ?) ... I am looking into it for a new hose in area where I might need cooling as much as heating ... Adriatic sea. avg temp for cold months in late autumn and winter is 6 celsius, and 30 celsius during summer.

[@ChapmanPlumbing]

@@hrgdavor sorry I have little to no expertise in that area

[@louw907]

Can I put a link to this on our website?

[@HeatGeek]

Ofcourse! That's exactly what it's there for 👍

[@louw907]

@@HeatGeek Fab Will be sending on to all our potential Heat Pump customers so they are well informed whoever they use

[@philipgardiner145]

Great video as always I have been wrestling between a boiler and ASHP in our old draughty house for ages, your videos are a real help. I might get you guys round to help me out 🤝🏾🫶🏾🙏🏿

[@justinhalsall4077]

Have you had anyone from the Netherlands take the Heat Geek course?

[@ChapmanPlumbing]

I'm not sure... had a couple from US.. 1 from Nz.. its in SI / metric so very applicable

[@danilosabbatini7451]

how can I find a skilled installer in Belgium?

[@patrickwheeler2646]

What's up KZbin!

[@DaveCorbey]

If the entire system free and installed completely free, all the installation work free, all my microbore ripped out, all my radiators replaced and floors lifted. I still wouldn't have one at the moment.

[@ChapmanPlumbing]

intresting

[@uksupporter8867]

Don’t do it, your house is not insulated enough and to benefit from a ASHP would involve a massive cost to insulate it to deal with the serious lack of of KWH you lose from installing one, ie your current boiler is 17kw in gas with a modulator built in so will never use this, something the do not tell people( for example my 2k modulating boiler has dropped my bill by half in a 2000 square foot house ) against a most likely 5kw a heat pump will produce so how will they replace the missing 12 kw easy it’s like running a kettle element all day which they have fitted so will cost way way more than gas

[@forgotmyname11]

Good points but totally disagree with the hybrid heatpump argument. If you dont have a fast & non-outside temp dependant source of heat, how are you going to provide hot water or heat the house during a snow blizzard? A heat pump will not work in those conditions unless you MASSIVELY oversize them, which is expensive and inefficient by itself. Maybe I should be giving this course instead...

[@HeatGeek]

You've lost me.. I didn't say hybrids don't have their place. And if your heatbpump matches thebcylinder coil rating over sizing it will do absolutely nothing.

[@HeatGeek]

Also.. all of our heat pumps heat hot water on theor own.. not immersion, no boiler .

[@forgotmyname11]

@@HeatGeek a heat pump is efficient but only when the outside air is not too cold, beyond a certain point the COP drops from 3-4 to below 2. This at the point you most need to warm the house when its freezing outside! So either you need to double the size of your heatpump, say from 6 to 12 kW which will make a negative ROI on the extra investment, or you need a backup heater electric or gas which is why hybrid is the best & most used. Also, for hot water, you only need it like 5 to 10 mins a day (shower plus 30 secs or so for hot tap water) meaning the heatpump capacity for this will only be running 10 mins a day instead of 12 hours a day for heatinf yiur home, thus no ROI on that either. The best system for a standard size house of 150m2 is hybrid heatpump 4-8kW plus 4-12 kW gas or electric boiler & backup heater(s), for UK climate and avg insulated house Rc +/- 2,5

[@HeatGeek]

@@forgotmyname11 incorrect. our heat pump sits at a cop of 3 when -2 outside and can hit 6 in shoulder months, as many of our customers do. you do not need a backup heater or hybrid. The size of the house has nothing to do with any of it.. its the heat loss and rad sizes that are importnant.

[@RealtalkManc]

Fischer have a separate hot water system that sits along side the heat only heat pump.

[@jdew7789]

Great video and v helpful, but being given ideas by a dude with a reverse baseball cap on does not automatically instil confidence!

[@HeatGeek]

Thankyou! The hats staying, sorry

[@SuperWayneyb]

🤘😎🤘

[@ralpharmsby8040]

Another video with a bloke pulling a daft face. Is that supposed to make me watch it?

[@stupidusername38]

question. If the system is mostly impacted by the pipes and the radiators and not the box outside how can the SCOP be engineered to be efficient if the installer is having to work with existing pipes and radiators. Surely the bottleneck when installing an ASHP with existing rads/pipes will be the limitation that inhibits maximum efficiency unless bigger radiators and wider pipes are installed

[@stupidusername38]

i think knowing how long air source heat pumps have been around is useful for us consumers to know as it may only be a relatively new industry and if a business says they've been installing heat pumps for 3 years and the industry itself is only 8 years old then 3 years isn't too short a time.

[@HeatGeek]

Heat pumps have been around about 150 years. All air con, fridges, offices, all macdonalds, ither restraunts, heat pumps everywhere for years and years

[@stupidusername38]

@@HeatGeek and are they the same systems that would be installed in a domestic property?

[@HeatGeek]

@@stupidusername38 the ones from 150 years ago no lol. But mini splits in offices yes absolutely... infact the newer heating derived ones are much better.