Heat Geek vs Skill Builder 🔥 The Final Round

[@eliotmansfield]

shall we do a gofundme for 3 more mics?

[@ETH92]

And 1 more stool

[@grassabrutta]

@@ETH92 damn ... I just let one go

[@wobby1516]

When I started in the heating business 60 years ago as an apprentice most houses were heated buy coal in the living room and an oil stove elsewhere. Now everyone has central heating but it’s taken 20-30 years to get there. Heatpumps will eventually become the norm but it’ll take an equal amount of time and just like in the passed there’ll be crap installs that will have to be fixed.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

600k installs a year by 2028 hopefully!

[@stpOwner]

Nothing heats a house as well as coal

[@shmink2]

"Heating knowledge has been lost because a plasterer and a chippy can put in a combi boiler" - Tommy hitting such a serious point there.

[@brianfreeman8290]

I've been watching Roger since the beginning. I trust him.

[@aerenewables]

Hes a dinosaur

[@jollyfinequality9865]

@brianfreeman8290 Agree 100% He has an experienced and well rounded view. In addition, there is a shortage of good engineers or more good designers & installers. As they said at the beginning, they are generally jumping on the band wagon, chasing the money. Most are wanna be heat geeks...

[@shmink2]

@@aerenewables he's the definition of "stuck in his ways". Unfortunatley so is a lot of the UK tradesmen.

[@langy1318]

All we need now is an army of problem solvers per household plus a technician owner to monitor.

[@edc1569]

Missed the point mate, if you put the right design in it’s simple, much less to go wrong.

[@langy1318]

@@edc1569 Not enough of that standard of engineer and won’t be for the foreseeable future.

[@philipmenzies7087]

What I get from this is don't have a heat pump.

[@steve_787]

My takeaway from this is that the old guard are going to retire and the newly trained engineers are going to be left sorting out the massively inefficient heating systems we've all been led to believe were the bees knees. We've been overpaying for our heating for decades and just wasting fuel. If a house with 9" brick and some additional loft insulation can be 500%+ efficient there is just no excuse. It's just been done wrong for decades.

[@Burty117]

Spot on, we brits for some reason hate looking out to the rest of the world to see how they do it, but Heat Pumps and decently insulated housing has been the standard for 20+ years for many countries even close neighbors. We have been doing it wrong for a really long time now.

[@steve_787]

@@Burty117 yeah, I think it's that resistance to admit we haven't been doing it right. When challenged the come backs are usually something along the lines of "it's tried & tested" which is short for, 'it was the first thing we came across that did the job so didn't bother trying anything else' or just 'that'll do'. Like most things that are a bodge job to start with, it's always more costly to put right so people question the value in it when it's "working"

[@px794]

Our climate is different to other nations, so the regulations we've had have suited that. It is only political machination that has engendered this need for insulation and other forms of heating. If electricity were vastly cheaper and the government had begun fracking and not taxing energy companies to find new gas wells none of this would be necessary. Yes, we should insulate, but as our environment is damp our homes also need to breathe.

[@steve_787]

​@@px794 The Building Regulations keep getting tighter so I wouldn't say that the regs have been suitable, especially Part L. If they were, then they wouldn't change but wall u-values have dropped from . Heat loss is heat loss. If you have crap walls then you'll spend more on energy which is just a waste of resources (no matter the source) and people over spending which typically leads to fuel poverty. Ventilation is covered under Part F so there should be no issues with breathability. If people get damp after insulating a house, it's because it's been designed wrong.

[@normanboyes4983]

@@px794Not quite we just had very cheap energy so no one was especially interested in efficiency.

[@flatfoot]

The solution could be solved by passing a law that all heat pump installs need SCOP monitoring & funds are withdrawn for installers who fail repeatedly

[@ashbridgeprojects6916]

That will double the price. It will never catch on.

[@edc1569]

The equipment to actually meter scop is pretty pricey, I guess. You could require the manufacturers to produce reliable data?

[@zteaxon7787]

The solution is abundant, cheap nuclear power and electric heating everywhere. Far simpler, more failproof and in the end cheaper. A regular electric heating for a home is perhaps 90% efficient. With good insulation there is no net benefit to complicated heat pump setups compared to regular electric heating.

[@zteaxon7787]

People end up paying enormous amounts of money ripping apart their homes to install heat pumps which are near 1 to 1 as effective as electric radiators when you actually need them. Then they have to be serviced regularly and have a lifespan of maybe 20 years.

[@paulwood6729]

@@zteaxon7787 And you don't have maintenance with all electric.

[@robinbennett5994]

Rodger is asking some very good questions, but he should be asking the government, not heating engineers. The heating engineers turning up expecting a debate on whether heat pumps work, and were asked to explain why a conservative government has produced an ineffective regulatory body.

[@normanboyes4983]

Governments do not have a clue, that’s how we ended up with the disgrace that is MCS. Competent heating engineers with experience of heat pump installation are exactly the people you should be asking what the obstacles are to a successful National roll out and how they could be tackled.

[@PaulusTigana]

I installed an air to air heat pump (Mitsubishi) about 2 years ago. I previously had electric panel heaters and a fireplace to provide heating. I reduced my electricity consumption by approximately 30% in winter, and I now almost never use the fireplace, saving an additional 400-500£ per year. The house is now more at a constant temperature and much more comfortable than before. This is not the whole picture though. In spring, summer and autumn we get quite a few cold days and nights where before I would just put on a sweater or get under a blanket. Now the heat pump keeps a constant temperature so I use electricity I would not have done before. I also use it for cooling a couple of days in summer when the weather gets hotter than normal. So consumption in winter is much lower but it has increased a bit the other 3 seasons so in total the total electricity consumption is down about 20 %. Keep in mind that electricity is much more expensive in winter so savings are pretty good. For my house the pump with install was just north of 2000gbp. The install took about one and a half hour. If energy prices keep beeing high as the last few seasons I will probably break even sometime within a couple of years. There are a couple of drawbacks. I now have a plastic box on the wall in my living room. It is not pretty, but in my home it's not in the most obvious place so it does not bother me. There is also fan noise. In the lowest setting it is not noticeable. But in my home the lowest setting is not sufficient so there is constant audible fan noise. I wouldn't say it is loud, and you get used to it, but it is there. If you can place it in a stairwell, hallway or other part of the building you are not constantly occupying, then the fan noise would not be an issue. For our home we had to place it in the living room for best performance. According to the dealer the pump needs service every 2-4 years depending on use and model. This adds to the running costs. If I was to do anything different I would have gone for a bigger heat pump. It is not as quiet on the lowest setting but for our home we rarely use the lowest setting anyway. If you have the indoor unit right over your head in the sitting area then the nearly silent low setting is probably more important. Still, if possible, two smaller units in different locations is probably better than one large one for spreading the heat evenly throughout the house. I can absolutely recommend our heat pump to others. It has made our lives easier, more comfortable and hopefully we can save some money with time.

[@SkillBuilder]

A very good comment and I am sure it will help a lot of people to make the right decision

[@andyhello23]

Could listen to these people all day These sorts of people should be on gov rnd development on this heat pump stuff, and unless you have this sort of knowledge in real world, you should not have the job advising where this sort of techs go. Very good talk, like i said, i could listen to them all day speak on this subject Experience and knowledge today is slowly diminishing, as everyone denies how important those things are. Like roger said the gov needs to have a strategy to do new things, and they employ too many people who simply do not see the bigger picture on what ever topic you want to choose. In computers, there used to be separate qualifications, as computers used to be separated into different areas. Plumbing needs to go there, and divide things into compartments Today people think anyone qualified as a plumber should know everything, but as you proved, alot of areas in plumbing needs real qualified people to understand and implement what ever is needed to install such systems. Roger also made a good point, is that people installing these heat pumps need to fix the problems in there house first. So really every heat pump install needs an engineer who has the knowledge in these areas to do a complete install, otherwise there is no point. I love how this part of plumbing is still learning how to do this, and you people are slowly learning to adapt to the problems that this new technology is applying to plumbing industry. Anyone installing a heat pump, needs to see it as a real investment, and real install, otherwise do not bother, as you are wasting your time. Not surprised such people as your guests are booked up long in advance

[@jammiejammie2570]

Great words from all of you. Now I can only share me thoughts of the years I have been in the industry. Firstly the training is not there. Colleges are only interested in one thing. Success rates. Colleges do not have the resources or the educated tutors to teach this. I myself was a lecturer for 10 years teaching the next generation of plumbing an heating engineers. Don’t get me wrong there are some good apprentices out there but disadvantaged by today’s educational system. I have tried so hard to change the minds of my superiors with no avail. I now with all my knowledge have gone back on the tools installing heat pumps as I did 20 years ago.

[@RR-mt2wp]

Outstanding video, government 0 % Vs 100 % engineers.

[@dilaliotube]

Can you name a gov scheme that was successful? I don't think I can! Worrying ain't it!

[@richardlewis5316]

I agree - the MPs who we have these days haven't a clue about practical matters - probably studied 'Media' at University!!

[@Roobubba]

When I first started following John's story here and on the heat geek channel, I was initially quite hostile to Roger's position. But I was wrong: Roger is asking those hard questions and posing all the right challenges, and the heat geeks have answered them in practice in the way they've fixed up John's awful installation. We're getting a heat pump installed very soon, I'm not at all concerned about it and very excited with the process, but I really hope that the wider industry can meet the challenge that currently it looks like only heat geek is rising to.

[@Jimages_uk]

It was after listening to Roger in the past, that I held back from getting an installation, and I think he did me a good service, I will move to a heat pump when my current boiler needs replacing, but thanks to him, and Heat Geeks, I know better, not to go to just anyone to fit it, and know the questions to ask.

[@Jimages_uk]

perhaps a bit of a solution is to have accredited heat loss surveyors, (holding a recognised qualification) who are only involved in providing a service for the homeowner, and have no ties to any installation providers, this survey can then be given to installers, if Heat Geeks don't need to go through that process, but know that the survey itself can be trusted, this would free them up to do more instals reduce their costs, and hopefully provide a recognised body doing the surveys and meeting certain standards, and having some sort of responsibility for if they get it wrong.

[@timstradling7764]

Ill stick with my wood burner and an extra jumper - old school😅

[@markrainford1219]

Government says you won't.

[@paulgoffin8054]

@@timstradling7764 As long as you're far enough out in the woods, go to it If you live in any sort of town, the rest of us can't live with the pollution you're producing.

[@timstradling7764]

@@paulgoffin8054 I live in the sticks, and wouldn’t want you to suffer. Timber sourced from my own patch. More carbon soaked up than produced.

[@timstradling7764]

@@markrainford1219 I don’t burn hydrocarbons such as oil or gas to keep warm. House is very well insulated. Not a huge step to get a big imported solar array and battery backup if the gov says No. Which is most polluting? I wouldn’t want any subsidy either, which most “schemes” require to get any take up.

[@markrainford1219]

@@timstradling7764 Envy you mate, wish I could do that. Got a tiny homemade wood burner in my man-cave, but just waiting for the local council busy bodies to come knocking.

[@racif]

I learned something new. That technique for folding them is brilliant!

[@terryT-r5o]

This was a really good session. Thank you.

[@f1remandg]

Needs to be more of this and solutions, this is what will grow the country, planning, like USA and micro chips, to name one.

[@BillsCountrysideAdventures]

It starts like sparks do, you need regulation. It starts in colleges and teaches the right things. You are never going to win unless we have regulation and someone to fine for dodgy installs.

[@xxwookey]

Regulation is good, but it's very easy to stop competent homeowners doing anything. Homeowners _care_ are their own houses, and are capable of doing very good work, but things like MCS are written in such a way that a really good geeky install by a homeowner (say Glyn Hudson's) 'doesn't count', so the 7 grand grant is not available. The electrics regulations have not worked either in terms of improving safety significantly. We still have kitchen installers self-certifying mediocre work, but competent individuals can hardly do anything legally, and tiny bits of work that happen a lot in retrofit need a £300 electrian visit. Regulations need to be written in terms of _outcomes_ and standards not 'club membership'.

[@davidstorm4015]

Wow, finally we are getting some common sense discussion around heat pump installations, thanks to Skill Builder and Heat Geek. The fault here lies completely with the Government, the lack of training, the lack of properly qualified and experienced heating engineers and the fake news that is constantly circulated stating that heat pumps don't work.

[@squeaky_honda]

The middle-ground is an aircon. I've had one for a year, and heating+cooling for half of the house totaled 545kWh at an average cost of £0.17/kWh. That's £92/year. When it's been 4-7C outside for many days, the AC uses 4-6kWh/day, while the gas boiler was taking 35kWh/day at £0.07/kWh (it's new and efficient, but some of the pipes might be too thin). Installation of an AC costs 1-2k and takes ~4 hours. An aircon easily has consistently better SCOP than the water-moving heatpumps due to even lower flow-temps.

[@markfernandes2467]

You can't get the BUS grant with an air to air system, that's the problem. Another is you then need a solution for DHW (hot water ). sure it's VAT exempt, but no 7.5 k. Mini split + say 3 emitors is gonna come in at arond 7.5k ex vat. so 2 or 3 times more than a combi would. Also, you have to think about the condense for all the internal units & how to pipe it all. If the BUS wa available & if manufacturers brought over some of their solutions that can also manage DHW, it would be a great option, especially for flats, sure. The cooling is a great bonus too.

[@squeaky_honda]

@@markfernandes2467 I never said get rid of the combi (for hot water, and maybe some rooms). But even if you removed the combi, it's just 1kWh per shower with an electric shower, so £5/mo per person, which is lower than the monthly 15+10 costs of standing charge + annual service . Like the video reiterated, wherever you get government incentives you get cowboys and actually inflated prices that negate the incentive. You DON'T want the BUS grant. Condensate pumps for the other issue. Whoever quoted you 7.5k + VAT is ripping you off.

[@johnhunter4181]

@@markfernandes2467 The £7.5k BUS grant disappears into the MCS Xmas fund and has done nothing but bump up prices. MCS rules also mean we're still oversizing everything because no account can be made for the heat generated by solar gain, people, pets, TVs, toasters, cooking etc etc and it has to work on the very coldest 4 days of the year when you could just put on an extra jumper or an electric convector. This leads to oversized systems for the rest of the year. Without MCS most of us could use a high temp air2water HP that wouldn't need any changes to the rest of the system. And if you have a combi keep it for DHW and simply add air2air HPs for space heating. But FFS improve insulation first!

[@normanboyes4983]

How do you measure SCOP on an Air to Air system?

[@normanboyes4983]

@@johnhunter4181Would you care to be specific on which MCS rule(s) force you to oversize a heat pump?

[@jimhud134]

We’ve just had a heat pump installed in our 300 year old plus house, they are coming back on Monday (tomorrow) to finish it off. After watching this I’m a bit nervous about how good it’s going to be, wish us luck. 🤞

[@SkillBuilder]

Let us know how it goes.

[@EverydayLife621]

The pivotal discussion is as to whether one should remove the old bolier, it makes no sense to do this in one go? - and I'm a university (Russell group) professor

[@richardlewis5316]

I had a heat pump salesman visit me and I said I wanted a heat pump and the combi. He got up and walked out as he was probably only after the money for removing the boiler!

[@EverydayLife621]

@@richardlewis5316 Update I've just done this DIY (and kept the old oil boiler), It cost me £1000 for a new "accident damaged Daikin 6kw heat pump" - The atternative was £7500 from octopus (ie £15000 total) - not used any oil todate and the daily cost on electric is around £1 for the house, car & heatpump - I'll advise in Jan 25 when the costs are the highest (house is a grade G).

[@effervescence5664]

Roger is entirely correct, unless a heat pump comes along with a far larger modulation range while maintaining efficiency so it can be dumbed down for installers the 600k target a year is 20 years away. They won't be as cheap to run as a properly designed system but they'll meet the carbon targets on paper. Many installers now are going MCS route via a manufacturer though so it's down to the manufacturers to design and carry the MCS rather than the companies which is a double edged sword. It will either tarnish the manufacturers or allow enough to be installed with the back up required.

[@normanboyes4983]

Heat pumps modulate to about 25% of their rated output as good as many gas boilers and better than some.

[@user-ry7yg2hk7i]

GSHP are the best on any house. ASHP must be use undersized and use in hybrid mode for best SCOP.

[@Traumahawk007]

Gov needs to subsidise Mini-Split Air to Air. Much simpler solution Ok units on wall can look ugly but other countries manage OK. Benefit of cooled air too

[@xxwookey]

The exclusion of A2A from support does seem quite ridiculous. They are indeed a great solution for many people.

[@Dr.Stacker]

I would never consider one myself, hate the look of them, gives it a hotel vibe

[@jfinnie78]

Given the industry is presently under-trained and fairly disfunctional (manufacturers insisting kit needs installing that doesn't, etc), it can only really make sense for most people to be embarking on heatpumps if they have large excesses of cheap energy from solar and/or are doing a long-term project where they have the time to research, get an installer who knows what they are doing and can navigate to a manufacturer-approved system that will also be performant and economical in a high-electricity cost environment. Anyone who needs a boiler based system repairing quickly due to failure is probably best off just getting a like for like gas replacement, as chances are you're not going to get a quality result in a hurry.

[@xxwookey]

It is certainly a problem that many installs are 'distress purchases' (help, my boiler broke!). But decarbonisation is really important to all of us, so people need to start on the research now to work out where they want to go when their current kit dies. So they _are_ ready to electrify when something breaks, or even before. Putting in new gas boilers now is basically climate crime. Obviously you can't really blame individuals who would quite like their hot water and heating back ASAP, but committing to another 15 years of gas burning _does_ make you a bad person, so do your best not to end up in that situation.

[@jfinnie78]

@@xxwookey Disagree very strongly. Until the industry gets itself to a place where folk can be guaranteed good design and an install that's going to be economic (at least partity with gas) to run, with an excess of engineering capacity (both installation AND servicing and repair) you can't blame people for going with a known quantity. If I can't get it installed at the drop of a hat when I'm waving a cheque for £10-£15k at someone, what chance do I have of getting it repaired promptly when I need it? The "climate crime" as you put it is being committed by Govt in not forcing this electrification on all new builds and refurbishment / extension projects where it clearly can be specified, there is no time pressure, and all the various calculations etc should be being done as a matter of course for Building Regs purposes. Until such a point, if the housebuilders of the country aren't obliged to with everything in their favour for successful deployments, why should I feel a burden to be doing the "right" thing at my cost and risk?

[@xxwookey]

@@jfinnie78 Fair point. Clearly new-builds that are still gas-powered are a shocking inditement of policy failure. (some of that is 'just' the slowness of the planning process - things got planning permission 7 years ago but only now are actually being built) but if New York can legislate against new gas boilers in new-builds then so can we. The reason that everyone should feel pressure to 'do the right thing' is that it _is_ the right thing. And we have been collectively so slow with all this that there is serious pressure to get on with it. Yes it's harder/more uncertain at this stage because it's not yet totally standard, but it's not less important. So you just have to do a bit more research. Yes 'blame' isn't the right language: people need support so that they _can_ decarbonise. That might be advice, money, reassurance, whatever they need. But just saying 'nah I can't be arsed - bollocks to the planet' - well that's not really acceptable. There will be some of that of course - there are still actual climate deniers out there(!), but it's time for social (and practical) norms to change. I've not fitted my HP yet, but I have been researching it for the last 2 years (and I spent the last 17 years insulating and airtighting the house so I only need a 3kW one). I'm hoping to get it all sorted this winter. There is no way I would ever put another gas boiler in (the cooker has already gone). I'm slightly embarassed that I put a boiler in in 2008, but I thought I needed to go fabric-first, and I have only burned about 300kWh in those 16 years so it's not too bad.

[@jfinnie78]

@@xxwookey If you have really only burned 300kWh worth of gas in 16 years I can't see why you need to replace it with anything... Let alone 3kW! Something doesn't add up there.

[@xxwookey]

@@jfinnie78 There was solar thermal and a woodburner filling in most of that gap. The woodburner has to go too.

[@hjworkshop1]

For a final round I’m amazed that we couldn’t get install prices and running costs that were clear. I don’t care about efficiency if you have to pay the earth for it.

[@SkillBuilder]

We had all that in a previous video.

[@hjworkshop1]

@@SkillBuilder thank you 👍

[@calderjack7818]

Excellent video although the conclusion is somewhat depressing when it comes to the heat pump industry. If there are so few properly trained installers who know what they're doing, how can potential customers have any confidence in investing in one?

[@yts4106]

What the heck is going in the UK? Would love to see a rant video with your take on it. Greetings from Norway. You're the most sensible voice from Britain that I know, thus asking.

[@SkillBuilder]

I get a lot of stick when I do political rants but I will think about it.

[@xxwookey]

@@SkillBuilder There is some hope that the new lot will be significantly less moronic than the last lot, but we have the buildings and economics that result from more than 15 years of bad policy to deal with, so it's all quite hard to fix.

[@WoodyNWUK]

Firstly, nothing against Heat Geek here, I just happened to use their site after watching some of John's heatpump story. They appear to be a decent company in a currently less than decent industry. According to HG the "with grant" install (based on similar installs) would cost us £5350. They projected an annual heatpump running cost of £450 against a current gas cost of £770. So, on paper, a saving of £320/yr. That would take 15 years just to recoup the cost of the install. However, their estimate of my current gas use is wrong. Last year my gas use was £420. £30 cheaper than the projected cost of running a heatpump. So, for us, it could cost £30/yr more to run a heat pump. Until heatpump installs are comparable in price to a boiler install, around £2-3k, they just aren't financially viable for most people. And that's not even taking into account the amount of space one takes up if you have to have a hot water storage cylinder installed again, and the huge external box that needs good airflow so could take a chunk off your likely already small garden. I'm not saying they don't have a place, I just don't believe they are ever likely to be suitable for every home in the UK, and the move towards banning gas boilers is a bit extreme.

[@SkillBuilder]

I think it is very hard to argue with your conclusion and even Heat Geek say that the real motivation has to be about CO2 reduction rather than economy. I think they are being a little conservative with the installation costs. John's system was £22,000 so even with a £7,500 grant, which he didn't get, he still won't pay off the investment even if he lives another 30 years.

[@nickhickson8738]

I live in a large-ish 3 bed semi, built in 1929 and has a narrow side back passage and a rear aspect wall facing sort of E/NE with only a limited area of wall where a Heat pump could go and even then, behind that wall are two living space i.e. no space for the plant room. The front of the house is full of windows and is drenched with hot sun in the Summer. The front and back of this house has two extremes therefore and nowhere that I can see, where a heat pump could go, not that I would ever consider one.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

You can put the external unit up walls if necessary, and the water cylinder could in future be small (see the Heat Geek mini).

[@xxwookey]

You don't need a 'plant room'. The unit can be outside, down the garden a bit, up on a wall. It's hard to envision a house where an HP can't be fitted in somewhere.

[@johnfreshwater3790]

I have seen many installs by so called MCS certificated companies and have had to put some right myself. MCS is not the answer a certificate proves nothing. The company that fitted my friends heat pump under the bus scheme just used a subbie and then signed it off without even checking it. I had to re run the flow and return pipes and they had left external pipes un insulated. Getting a heat geek is a more reliable way of getting a good job MCS like many other schemes is just a cash cow

[@kevindruce8915]

Thanks for sharing

[@nickhickson8738]

Not a video to be missed but I'll be watching it later before I get a kip.

[@andrewwest5562]

Had a heatpump for 3 years and can't fault it, had trouble finding someone to service it! Finally found a company which was recommend, guy turned up with no tool box was here maybe 1 hour.. never removed the cover off the heat pump just cleaned the cover with baby wipes then removed the strainer to clean played with the controller and took reading taped the pressure vessels and that was it. In the end of the day I could have done everything he did and more?

[@SkillBuilder]

yes the servicing of many things is a waste of time. The trouble is that the manufacturers use it as a way of getting out of the warranty. You need the piece of paper

[@stephendavies6949]

Heat pumps are following the classic Product Lifecycle graph. Only the brave should be the Innovator & Fast Follower customers in this marketplace. Hopefully, by the time my current gas boiler requries replacing (in around 8-10 years), the technology and the market roadblocks will have been sorted.

[@normanboyes4983]

Heat Pumps have been around over 50 years - it is a mature technology. As they said in the Q/A it is the system in the house that requires the attention to assure good heat pump performance (emitters and pipework diameter) to ensure sufficient flowrate is achieved.

[@stephendavies6949]

@normanboyes4983 Fair enough, but for a customer like me who has, at best, a rudimentary knowledge of heating systems, we have tontrust the professionals to do a complete and proper job.

[@normanboyes4983]

@@stephendavies6949 Yes and that is the nub of the problem. Customers trusted gas fitters to fit boilers and they did less than a good job at that - but it did not matter so much because the house got warm and gas was cheap. The boiler was a wreck after 20 years. New boiler guv? No problem ….

[@stephendavies6949]

@normanboyes4983 Yep, as a customer I'm OK with a new boiler after 20 years of having a warm house. Now I risk spending far more cash and living in a chilly house. My boiler is less than 3 years old, so by the time I have to change it, I'm sure things will have improved.

[@richardwigley]

I did the online quoting thing on the Heat Geek website and it said my yearly saving would be £20.... Am I missing something?

[@SeanW-zi6kj]

Unless you're on something really expensive like storage heaters - they're not going to save you loads of money at price cap rates. They're going to be broadly ballpark similar costs. Do it when you were going to change the boiler *anyway*. Also, I mentioned price cap rates - that's not the only option, there is the Heat Pump Plus add-on with OVO that costs 15p/kWh for electric going through the HP, there's Octopus agile and all sorts of tariffs and things you just can't do on gas. Pairing with batteries etc etc etc.

[@dorsetengineering]

Rambled my way through that question but I think everyone got what I was trying to say….

[@MrPhaseShift]

That's made my mind up! There are only 2 options, HG trained guys installing or don't do it. But then, what about Viessman? Are their guys getting there? Expensive kit mind.

[@SeanW-zi6kj]

That's my thinking too. There is no other way at the moment that a householder knows that the engineer *knows* this stuff or has just been chucking it in for the last X years.

[@MrPhaseShift]

@@SeanW-zi6kj I’ve pulled trigger, local HG has made contact, survey date being sorted. Wife checked the CheckaTrade reviews and he gets a lot of 10s. So far so good.

[@makeaguitarnoise]

My sister in law in Germany just got a heat pump installed. I don't think the company who installed it had the knowledge to do so correctly. We shall see come the winter. Cost her 50,000 euros although they get a subsidy from the Government. I think approximately 15,000 euros

[@tonydization]

Germany installs 100,000s of hps a year compared to 10,000s in the UK and their training and education of programs for installers are generally far superior and comprehensive, any particular reason why you think your sil's installers didn't have the knowledge?

[@derekclark7545]

If you understand heat pump systems like Tommy does then don't argue with him, and what he says about Combi boilers is so right, totally oversized for 85% of house's under three bedrooms, where is the energy efficiency in that. Roger is quite right about the bigger picture though, we are not training enough people and there is no strategy. One things for sure the training is utter rubbish unless you use someone/company trained to HeatGeek standards.

[@GaryBox]

The reality is that there are far fewer complaints about combi boilers than there are about heat pumps, even though heat pumps are still quite niche. I look at what utility companies charge. The price per kWh for gas is FAR cheaper than what we are charged for electricity. The economics don't make sense. I don't trust the government and as such prefer having options. Currently I can heat my small bungalow in a few different ways. I do have a combi boiler but I also have an air conditioner which we installed chiefly for cooling but can provide heating too. The government seem to want to crack down on options, gas for political reasons to punish Russia and also wood burners. I don't trust the government to be able to generate the electricity required from wind turbines and solar panels and they seem to be very slow to support new nuclear plants.

[@xxwookey]

@@GaryBox Firstly this isn't just about economics, it's about emissions and long-term survival. We have to decarbonise, otherwise much of the world is going to be a really miserable place. Secondly, the economics _do_ make sense. Not paying other countries for fossil fuels, not being exposed to wild price swings, and having more efficient buildings and heating systems, all make sense, especially in the longer term. 'My gas + boiler is cheaper today than improving anything' is a very shortsighted view. If we improve the buildings enough we'll need less than half the energy we use now _and_ if you use that energy at 400% SCOP that's 1/8th of the energy used now for heating. That's less generation than we have now, not more. Insulated and airtight buildings with heat pumps is the most amazing power-up for the economics of the nation. But it does take time - you can't EnerPhit all 23 million houses very quickly. And the morons in charge have allowed the last 20 years worth of mediocre buildings to be put up, primarily to make Barrett and Persimmon money, so even the new ones aren't very good. It's extraordinarily short-sighted.

[@GaryBox]

@@xxwookey When politicians get involved and do exactly the opposite themselves as to what they are telling the rest of us to do it's not about climate. My gas usage is much lower than the average household because we only use gas via the combi boiler for some heating in winter and to get hot water from a couple of taps. Everything else is electric and we use more electricity than the average user in part because we work from home. I live in a 1930's bungalow and have no intention of paying through the nose for a heat pump. I have an air condioner unit for cooling on very hot days that can also do heating so I'm not against technology but that cost me £1300 fitted whereas a heat pump that will also heat water is incredibly expensive. By banning gas boilers they are effectively removing choice and forcing me to go with a device that uses electricity. The unit cost per kWh is so much more for electricity. We are told that solar and wind are now the cheapest energy to produce but the facts (our bills) simply say the opposite. I'm not wedded to any particular technology and want the free market to be allowed to show what works best. Personally I think we could be doing much more with nuclear and hydro instead of solar and wind. When the Ukraine war started and western nations stopped relying on Russian gas there was a huge inflation spike. It was very telling that the country with the lowest rise in inflation was also the one with the most nuclear power (France). If humanity is so toxic to the planet (and I agree it is in terms of waste in oceans) why are there no calls or tax policies to manage population? It's like they want even more consumers and green parties encorage immigration of people from poorer countries to wealthier, higher carbon countries. The same green politicians don't practice what they preach. Sorry but it sinply looks like a cash grab and about control rather than any green issue.

[@xxwookey]

@@GaryBox How do you propose we decarbonise _without_ banning the fossil fuels? What is the point of giving people the option to pollute? You don't get a 'choice' about crapping in the sewer system or on the road outside, nor about putting your rubbish in a bin for processing or just leaving it somewhere in the neighbourhood. Pollution has to be controlled for our collective good, and gas boilers are pollution. I do agree that politicians who don't follow their own advice are not helping, which is why Caroline Lucas got a lot more respect than most. Kevin Anderson is someone who walks the talks and gains a lot of credibility because of it (he's a professor, not a politician, but the same principles apply).

[@timsyoutube6051]

The trouble with heat pumps is it puts the onus on the public. Surely its a governments responsibility to provide us energy, ideally cheap and clean energy. If they made more strides in this direction we could just heat our homes and water electrically.

[@charlesmarsh9608]

You start with a hell of a lot of insulation.

[@racingtortoise46]

The vid mentioned £500 for the loft insulation. I'm finding the housebuilder skimped om a few things. House built early '90s, detached, roughly 36 x 24 + 18 x 10 footprint, no cavity wall insulation and 15mm flow and return pipes. As a first step I've been quoted just under £5k for beefing up the current "joist depth" insulation to current standards. Seemed excessive to me.

[@Jamesp1972]

Imagine if we had a proper coordinated and credible construction industry and it wasnt all following the money

[@xxwookey]

And it was actually required to build decent houses.

[@aerenewables]

Go on tommy

[@maxthemagition]

I do not believe it! A very easy way to establish the facts and check the efficiency of your home.... Step one......On a cold day or night and your house is nice and warm, take a note of the temperature outside and inside your house and then switch your heating off whatever it is. Step two.....24 hours later take note of the temperature outside and inside your house and then switch your heating back on. This test checks how well your house is keeping the heat. Srep three.....Check how long your heating takes to get back to the start of step one....This checks how good your heating is in heating your house. Step 4......take meter readings of the source of your energy before and after the tests....This tells you how much it costs to heat your house given the required inside temperature and the outside temperature. Surely nothing could be simpler? I did the test for my house and I was very happy with the results and I have gas CH..... First my home did not drop in temperature very much over the 24hrs. (Delighted) Second the temperature returned to a comfortable level within 1 hour. (delighted). The cost was minimal as I only used the gas for less than 1 hour intermittently as the gos boiler switched off and on several time whilst it was heating the house. I'm sticking with Gas thank you very much!

[@adrianred236]

Roger needs to start knocking bad HP installations rathar than the actual heat pumps.

[@SkillBuilder]

Heat pump sales in the U.K are dropping dramatically and manufacturers are making redundancies. Ask yourself why. It is not due to a few people like me, it is thousands of people telling their friends and neighbours that the heat pump has not performed as promised. To the householder the reason for that is academic. They are cold and their bills are high. Yes we could go around each installation and find ways to improve it but that shouldn't be necessary. In this day and age there should be plug and play options that can be installed by fitters who do not have an egineering degree. One day that will happen but I am saddened by the way the whole thing has been handled. If the government had left the market to mature through organic growth we would not have all these get rich quick spivs selling heat pumps to people who would be better off keeping their gas boiler. If it were saving the planet it might be worth the pain but it isn't.

[@markrobinson1458]

I've already made my mind up, the guy with the glasses has an arrogance about him, he may be mustard at his job but I'd show him the door after 2 minutes.

[@SmartAndTidy]

Totally agree. It's the customer's fault for not using someone like him? Get real.

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

Why? I'd rather have someone who knows his stuff. I guess he's just fed up with all the crap from no-knowledge gas advocates trying to tell him heat pumps don't work.

[@mrshitstain]

He’s a great person, frustrated with a vital industry that is being neglected by incompetent governments.

[@stephendavies6949]

Really? If I were a customer I'd be very happy.

[@normanboyes4983]

I would not lose sleep over it - he would likely reject you as a client on first meeting you. These guys are on the top of their game and have more work than they can possibly handle, so they get to choose who they want to work with.

[@plumbertime]

Why can’t we just fit a well sized system boiler designed at low temps with all the bells and whistles.

[@edc1569]

Perfect plan, can be swapped to a heat pump in future when gas prices rise.

[@robinbennett5994]

Because that would cause a lot more pollution and make climate change worse. And if you have the skills to install a low temp system, you could install a heat pump.

[@matthewseymour8972]

You can, but it will cost more in the long run so why would you want to do that?

[@markrainford1219]

@@robinbennett5994 Climate change will be altered by this?

[@px794]

@@robinbennett5994 There is still no uncontested evidence that man affects the earth's climate. Burning gas remotely to generate electricity is vastly more inefficient than burning it locally to generate heat.

[@davideyres955]

There isn’t a problem with heat pumps themselves. The problem is that we have houses that were designed with cheap gas in mind. All new houses need to be better designed for insulation and air tightness. We should be mandating no standing charge for gas so we can have heat pumps when the weather makes them far more efficient and use gas if the temperature drops or you want to heat water. Hybrid makes much more sense especially when we have massive investment in the gas infrastructure.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

I can't see them coexisting for long. We need to incentivise the transition from gas by moving climate levies to gas, rather than prolong use of the gas infrastructure that will need to be decommissioned.

[@xxwookey]

An awful lot of the houses were designed with coal fires and very high ventilation rates in mind, never mind gas. New houses should barely need any heating at all beyond the gains from the people and kit in them and sunshine through the windows. Fully half the heating load is hot water.

[@riptiz]

No problem, all those on the rubber boats are heat geek trained, ask the government.

[@SkillBuilder]

It is funny how many of them are doctors and dentists. I thnk they are told to say that because it gives them a better chance of being given asylum/ Maybe if they say they are heat pump installers they will be fast tracked and given a council house.

[@paulwood6729]

There's something I just fundamentally don't understand with heat pumps. The circulating fluid on the heating side (presumably water) must be at least ambient temperature, otherwise it'd be taking heat out of the house. The fluid on the pump side must be at least that temperature when leaving the heat exchanger as it'd be taking heat out of the heating fluid. That fluid is then chilled to much below outside ambient temperature in order to pick up heat from outside. So energy is used to chill the fluid just to have it warmed back up again, mostly by compression. Why not remove much of the system and associated energy used to run it and just electrically warm the heating fluid?

[@tonydization]

Understand how refrigerants work, they are not ordinary fluids.

[@paulwood6729]

​@@tonydization A refrigerant is just a fluid with a low freezing point, allowing it to transport heat. It still needs to be cooled before collecting heat from outside and that requires energy.

[@tonydization]

@@paulwood6729 I'm not going to argue or explain the laws of physics to you. Go back to first principles and fundamentally understand how these systems work and can be 300 +% efficient and you should get your answers.

[@paulwood6729]

@@tonydization Don't/won't/can't, they are all the same to you.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

It's the phase changes of the refrigerant that release/extract the heat. The refrigerant can extract heat from air down to temps below zero Celsius and release it to the water for the radiators to keep the building warm/warm the domestic hot water.

[@JoshuaStringfellow1]

Does Roger have any ideas about how to incentivise heat pump take up without the negative consequences he's describing of the grants so far? (Genuine question, not snark) He complains a lot about the government getting involved, but the alternative of just letting it grow organically doesn't work either if you want to transition from gas heating in any sort of time period that is necessary according to the climate wonks, especially if the spark gap isn't addressed. So what's the play? My own opinion is that the grant ought to include open monitoring as a requirement* (this has its own consequences, not all of them positive depending on a customers POV**), and I think there's lots of ways that that the grant money could be handled better, e.g. maybe it ought to be metered out over a few years rather than a single lump sum, with a requirement for the system to perform to a certain standard over that time. This would reduce uptake compared to the existing BUS in the short term as it would be more expensive for installers initially (like leasing a car), but it would help avoid the boom bust nature Roger describes. Or treat it like a loan but waive the repayments provided the system is performing adequately, deals with the initial upfront cost for installers but adds even more admin. These are just ideas, but I think some more constructive engagement with how the government should encourage uptake would be interesting, rather than just panning the existing and historic schemes. * or have an additional grant to cover monitoring ** if installers are publicly tied to an installation there's a chance they focus on efficiency above and beyond what the customer wants, insisting on oversized rads, etc, even if the customer would rather an ever so slightly larger lecy bill to avoid an unsightly bulky rad. Efficiency is good, but sometimes other things are more important.

[@normanboyes4983]

The first step government should take is to engage with the industry (not MCS ) and invest in specific education and training (current provision is not good enough), allied to that an apprenticeship scheme and incentivise proven installers to take apprentices. I agree with you on mandatory Open Energy Monitoring and maybe a minimum specified annual SCOP (say 4) as a measure of achievement for the installer (as part of their path to ‘proven installer’) and maybe change the BUS Grant so it goes to the installer but enabling it to be clawed back if a bad install or minimum annual SCOP not achieved.

[@deanofakesie8153]

a good start would be to make it compulsory to have them separately metered which would talk to the owners smart meter , if and when the anaul figers are above a recomended scop , then someone will attend to see if its user error or installer error, if its the installer , then pull their goverment accreditation a bit simular whats coming with the heat network efficiency scheme

[@JohnStowers]

I dont understand why heap pump installers complain about combi boilers being robust and easy to install as though that is a negative.

[@tonydization]

The complaint is they are easy to install because they're often incorrectly specified.

[@JohnStowers]

​@@tonydization yes, and? They equate over with incorrect because they undervalue robustness

[@tonydization]

@@JohnStowers If a combi is cycling like crazy because it is oversized that doesn't equal robustness.

[@JohnStowers]

​@@tonydizationaverage lifespan of combi boilers disagrees with you there ....

[@aerenewables]

Quality video. Rodger has no clue

[@davecavaghan7889]

no one has solved the problem of replacing a combi boiler with no space for a unvented cylinder or the microbore issue,and why do heat geeks charge 000’s for their warranty,if they have so much confidence in the product they’re selling why charge for a warranty?

[@xxwookey]

There are solutions: Zip taps, tank in the loft, phase-change box the size of a desktop computer, small undercupboard tank. The microbore problem is straightforward to solve: replace it with fatter pipe. Or leave it and have significantly higher running costs. You choose.

[@brucejoseph8367]

John hasn't had his heat pump go through an extended period of very cold or below freezing weather, but it's being shown as an example of a successful installation. I hope for his sake that it lives up to expectations. Will it be cheaper or dearer to run than a gas boiler, or about the same, only time will tell. As this is the final round I doubt we'll ever find out.

[@robinbennett5994]

You can track the performance of his system on open energy monitor. If it's getting a SCOP better than about 3, it's cheaper than gas.

[@stulop]

They did the maths. He has a guaranteed COP.

[@brucejoseph8367]

@@stulop lets hope his guarantee keeps him warm in the winter.

[@stulop]

@@brucejoseph8367 No hope needed, they used science and mathematics.

[@calderjack7818]

​@robinbennett5994 even tho electricity is 3/4 times more expensive?

[@therealdojj]

"do you turn your fridge off" 🤣 Great video 👍

[@amd4life89]

Fridges and Freezers don't modulate, the compressor turns on and off as required just like a gas boiler would so that wasn't a brilliant retort! 😂

[@dannyhowarth1728]

Just about to comment same

[@robertbeal]

Heh, I came looking to respond similarly. Hook it up to a power meter and it's easy to see when it kicks in and off.

[@HA05GER]

​@jamesclark5654most thermostats we have in home the basic turn the dial to set the temperature, they have a fall back so you may have it set to to 20 but it may take a temp drop back to say 17 before the thermostat clicks back in.

[@colincampbell3679]

Now all we need is a system that works like it should and don't cost many many thousands and the people whom do the installing can fit easier! New Government now saying green power is good etc. we will see? Somehow the oil and gas lot will find a way to stop the changes I am sure just like they put out lies about EV's and green tech in general as those will stop them selling oil & gas soon.

[@wattsupmike7593]

I Ripped Out My Gas Boiler. Whole house 19-21c at 5c outside for 2kW heat loss.

[@SkillBuilder]

That is due to the insulation. 2 kw heat loss doesn't change with the heat source

[@wobby1516]

I’ve had a heatpump fitted by Octopus 🐙 and it works fantastically well however it has to be said that heatpumps heat slowly and therefore have to run longer but on cheap rate electricity and a scop of 4 it’s cheaper to run than gas.

[@Jimages_uk]

14:30 We need to stop sending everyone to university, and get a lot more people doing apprenticeships and learning skills, our education system is set up for people working in offices in London, instead of the the nation, and its needs.

[@Robert-cu9bm]

With a boiler you can do individual rooms and heat only the room you're in saving costs. Whereas with a heat pump for it to work correctly you need to heat half the home.

[@SkillBuilder]

more than half, you need to heat rooms you don't use.

[@niallmaccann]

Rubbish

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@niallmaccannif you read/watch the Heat Geek material they highlight that unless your house has a thermal barrier (says a house with wings) it will probably be cheaper and more efficient to heat the whole house, rather than individual rooms.

[@davidscott3292]

Just remove all subsidies and government interference, and we will see what choices people make.

[@Ben-gm9lo]

I appreciate your view, but there won't be a choice in a few years time once gas boilers are not longer allowed to be installed. We can all carry on with our heads in the sand believing in the future of our combi boilers and spouting about our right to choice, but we need to start the transition as early as possible to make it as smooth as possible. The government has joined the global decision to make change before we cook our planet. Hard to believe they will back down on that unilaterally. As Roger says, this is going to be an interesting and sticky mess for years to come.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

Unfortunately we need to mandate a transition and help people to make the change. The existing system is unsustainable.

[@davidscott3292]

@@Biggest-dh1vr Even if true, which I doubt, the UK crippling itself economically will have no effect globally. Indeed, it is potentially counter-productive.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

@@davidscott3292 it's climate denial to suggest the UK doesn't make a difference. The UK can help fix our own emissions and provide money and expertise to help other countries. The majority of the UK populace support the Net Zero 2050 target. There will be an increasing expectation from other countries that we 'do our bit' if we want to continue to trade and influence others.

[@bordersw1239]

Is that a Gas Safe sticker on the Heat Geek’s grey T shirt? 😂

[@mrfr87]

He is a skilled heating engineer. Gas, heat pump doesn’t matter he knows his stuff.

[@bordersw1239]

@@mrfr87 .ah, so he has a masters or doctorate in heating engineering?

[@moondog4561]

You need to be gas safe as well if you are planning on replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump sir

[@bordersw1239]

@@moondog4561 . Apart from disconnecting the old gas boiler - why?

[@moondog4561]

@@bordersw1239 so they can disconnect the old gas boiler safely and not have to outsource a gas engineer to save costs maybe?

[@edc1569]

I had a Viessmann 200 boiler put in as part of a house refurb, the boiler is next to the cylinder, the boiler has two ports dedicated for connecting to the hot water cylinder. The kid was so brain washed by what he was taught at school he capped off the dedicated ports and installed two entirely unnecessary motorised valves. Now the system can't do weather comp and has a bunch of unnecessary complexity and failure points. Something fundamental needs to change about how people are being trained - this guy has zero hope in a world of heat pumps and he's in his 20s.

[@markfernandes2467]

Why didn't you stop him? You seem to know what he was doing wrong. YOu've paid 2k for a 200 , what's the point if it's installed worng & doesn't even use weather compensation??

[@jamesjulian]

There’s no free lunch, I remember from the first video the customer was trying to run it like his gas boiler. Switch it on when he’s cold so he never got warm. Since the heat geek visit he’s happy to leave it on whether comp and warm, no shit Sherlock. Maybe it’s because I’m a heating engineer I don’t mind paying to be warm ?

[@nickhickson8738]

Yes but didn't that first video also show that John's ASHP was making an awful bearing noise and was off vertical which didn't help?

[@ricos1497]

​@@nickhickson8738yes, among many other issues.

[@haydnlawrence8167]

@@nickhickson8738 The system did work but was too expensive to run and noisy , which Adam said fitting a weather comp sensor would solve the running cost issue. Then in the next episode a team of geeks turn up and rip out half the instal . Now we find out from Roger that 200mm of loft insulation was added , so maybe this was the main reason the system was expensive to run and didn’t need a huge revamp .

[@HA05GER]

​@@haydnlawrence8167insulation isn't going to affect it's efficiency so realistically it shouldn't make a difference as the gas boiler is going to.run longer without the insulation.

[@haydnlawrence8167]

@@HA05GER The insulation is reducing heat loss from the building regardless of what you are using to heat the building.

[@frankhilgers3811]

I am sure, you are good lads and experts. But the ammount of tattoos scare the shit out of me. No way, we do business.

[@px794]

I've been fortunate to have a heat pump installed via the ECO4 grant - I was close to tearing out the loft insulation and storage heaters to get it. As our road will never have gas (despite the pretence we could) this was our only option and I jumped at it to get central heating. I am worried about the cost of having to leave it on all the time, even if only for three months. The significant 'gubbinage' of expansion vessels, tanks and pump are also points of failure. Then there's the elephant in the room - electricity is expected to become 12-15% more expensive in October and net zero mania will only increase it, either in bills or in direct taxation (which is the same thing, really). With my boiler it was simple. I turned it on, I was warm. If I was too warm, I turned it down. Too cold, up. I've not had a Winter with the pump yet, and I am looking forward to central heating again. If it can get the whole house to 16-17 that'd be better than the average of 10 I had before. Despite no investment from me directly - I consider the grant a tax rebate - I am still unconvinced. The scop lark is banded about because of the running costs and inflexibility but... that's the point of technology: to make our lives more comfortable on demand, not to make us slaves to their operation. For heat pumps to take off electricity must be cheaper than gas, say around 5p per KW/h and the devices made significantly more flexible. Neither will happen for political and technical reasons. This is why when we move we will demand gas central heating.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

If it has been installed well the SCOP should make it roughly equivalent to gas heating. If you watch the Heat Geek videos, you'll see how the weather compensation feature, along with leaving radiators on enables good efficiency.

[@inh415]

​@@Biggest-dh1vr the same or cheeper than gad assuming like for like, as in heating with gas 24/7 rather than just cor an hour here and there.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

@@inh415 Heating with a heat pump should make the house as warm for the same cost as gas. Heat pumps put more heat into the house for less energy. Electricity will continue to be more expensive per kWh than gas, but the 'magic' efficiencies of a heat pump will deliver the same heat into the house for roughly the same cost.

[@inh415]

@@Biggest-dh1vr unless only heating for an hour or so every evening, where a heatpump will cost more. Edit. An air to water heatpump. Air to air is ideal for intermittent heating.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

@@inh415 That would be a strange way to heat. A heat pump could be programmed to efficiently hit a target temperature at a certain time. The most efficient way would probably be to ramp temp up fairly gradually in advance.

[@MrJimjam2011]

Once the grants dissapear the whole heat pump thing will go the way of the dodo. Absolutelty no use at all in an old house.

[@cedarstuff]

The only way heat pumps survive is if the grants are removed. Then we'll see proper innovation to compete with combis, and more competitive pricing.

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

old houses are fine for heat pumps but like ALL heating systems, you need to insulate or you have to burn more and more to make up for the heat continually leaking out

[@flatfoot]

The main reason heat pumps "don't work in old houses" is because the grants weren't available for houses with poor insulation. As long as the emitters are suitably sized heat pumps work fine in any house.

[@inh415]

As long as you install enough radiators and or UFH, a heatpump will heat old uninsulated houses fine. Fully insulated vs uninsulated for a stone farmhouse at lease is about half the heating requirment. Generaly not worth the cost of insulating other than low hanging fruits like loft insulation. The cost of insulation without a grant will lightly not pay for itself within a lifetime.

[@cornsiecornsie]

Can someone tell me are air source heat pumps designed from the ground up to be a heat pump or are they reengineered air con units?

[@andykostynowicz]

To be honest a heart pump is basically the same as an air conditioning system. Just utilizing the hot side of the system

[@demomano9915]

@@andykostynowiczYou have just given the secret away!

[@haydnlawrence8167]

The difference is Heat Pump guys claim the HP extracts warmth from cold air . The ac guys do not claim the ac unit extracts cold from warm air .

[@andykostynowicz]

can see you don't really understand the concept. Hot and cold is just a human perception. What you are really doing is extracting energy from the air. All things above absolute zero has free energy that can be extracted. Granted in -60C it is much harder to extract heat energy than at +60C but it is still possible.

[@haydnlawrence8167]

@@andykostynowicz I understand the concept I just don’t believe the BS 💩

[@f1remandg]

The fact that the Government couldn’t sort out three barges for the Asylum seekers, they got two wrong and the third wasn’t fit for purpose, track and trace! Furlough, NHS, £34,000,000 for Keegan’s department to be renovated, they aren’t experts in anything, planning is required, along with training like apprenticeships.

[@richardlewis5316]

I have watched the saga of this house and listened to the previous meetings where Mr Heat Geek is trying to convince us that its always somebody else's fault why the HP does not work. Same today Mr 'Alton Jones' has spent all his air time on blaming others. To hear talk of SCOP and 500% efficient to heat a 30 gallon tank of water is ludicrous especially as its summer. I have a combi which heats my shower once or twice a day and costs about 48 pence per day to achieve this. No other hot water needed Heat pumps and EVs are all in the same 'Car crash ' situation as neither work as well as fuel - petrol or gas for ease of use - ie being able to turn the heat on when its cold in the evening.

[@andytunnicliffe7223]

So, how come my EV is cheaper to run than an ice car?

[@TheTW11]

History is littered with examples of how you must never, ever be an early adopter. Surely everyone knows this? It's the same with EV's. One day the battery technology will improve and EV's will make sense. But that's not where we are at today. Let some other idiot take the hit.

[@defragsbin]

I think it's fine to be an early adopter if A) you are passionate about it B) understand the risks C) enjoy tinkering D) can afford the cost One of my mates' dad who is a car mechanic installed a ground source heat pump best part of a decade ago and spent time wrestling with it, as much of the setup didn't work properly and the components barely worked together, but he taught himself a lot and got it working really well after a year or two. Some people just love to tinker and solve problems! As for me, after a few years of sporadically learning about them, I'd get a heat pump through a reputable installer like a top tier Heat Geek. Would I advise my friends and family to get a heat pump? Only if they did their homework and had a trustworthy installer. If you pick an installer at random it's not worth it, even with the subsidies. Too much risk of a cowboy job because so many installers don't know what they're doing.

[@JoshuaStringfellow1]

We're past that point today with the technology for heat pumps and EVs, if you've got the budget (that's a big if, tbf). The limitations are finding a decent installer for a heat pump.

[@GaryBox]

Generally I agree you don't want to be an early adopter. The problem is made worse by the government who ruin everything they touch. They want to ban gas boilers and wood burners and force people to switch to an electrical system. They are doing the same with our cars. The grid won't cope with the demand for electricity. Slow to support new nuclear plants or hydro electric but wind turbines and solar aren't reliable.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@JoshuaStringfellow1secondhand EVs are a great buy currently. They're superior to ICE cars for many users, including cheap home charging and low maintenance costs.

[@perkulant4629]

Heat pumps can do one. My gas boiler is cheap to run. Only need it on Nov-Feb.

[@davidscott3292]

Yes, and don't put in a boiler that is bigger than needed.

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

how do you heat your water the rest of the year?

[@JohnJohnson-mt9yt]

So the heat geeks boss is ex-naval intelligence, go figure. Those Putin-funded sceptics don’t know who they’re dealing with.

[@CosmicBrain21]

Fact is: If the government didn’t interfere, then no one would have a domestic heat pump system.

[@McOw123]

And that would be a shame because I love mine, and dirt cheap to run with my solar/battery install and cheap overnight charging

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

if the government didn't interfere for the common good then your food would be full of toxic sh*t, your cars would be unsafe etc. Sometimes you need the government to force the luddites to a better cleaner solution.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@McOw123and heat pumps are a key element in the transition from fossil fuels, so without them we wouldn't be helping the environment, meeting our legal targets and consequently be paying large fines.

[@aspie2901]

Just bypass the shit 👍

[@jaydee743]

Too complicated for the lay man to understand

[@dama054]

MCS is not fit for purpose

[@rubblestacker]

Energy is not created or destroyed it just changes its form with Losses every time it dose so. simple physics.

[@itsmyview2024]

MCS are a joke, wont talk to end users, wont answer questions about their install recommendations, hopeless.

[@industrialmonk]

The problem is that real engineer's are generally old & retired. Engineering Has been devalued to the point that i wouldn't have most sweep the work shop. I have designed & built a off grid system that every so called heating engineer has informed me will not work but has been working now for 30 years & is being updated to use the wast electric from solar PV panels with almost no modifications. I believe that a heating engineer is no good if he can't make a simple thermo siphon system work even the lowest Victorian plumber could do it.

[@edc1569]

The smart engineers are working in aeronautics, bio-sciences, computer sciences, finance, etc, etc they haven't all got old and retired, problem is people in these areas aren't prepared to work at the rate you expect to pay. We could still do so much more, stop teaching kids dumb s-plans, someone develop some good apps as tools and teach them how to actually design and size a system - it is not rocket science.

[@MrCarhoo]

When a freezer gets to temperature the compressor turns off. So yeah. 😂 I went to Worcester and they said heat pumps are rubbish as an engineer.

[@Casualobserver-t7o]

I think you’re all missing one very important issue. Heat pumps can only generate low grade heat I.e not very hot not very quickly. You need to keep as much of that heat to stay in your house as possible hence you have to heavily insulate all walls. Floors and ceiling space. If you have to insulate to that degree then by all means do it but keep your gas boiler. You’ll probably find that your boiler will run about 10 mins every hour. You’ll see a massive difference in your energy bill and have a warmer house than what a heat pumped house can deliver..happy days..

[@SkillBuilder]

I am not sure that anyone missed that point. All new homes have to be heat pump ready in terms of the insulation levels and heat emitters. We have several videos on the subject including this, which was the first one we made. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZmkfIB3mNJ9fMk

[@mattridler377]

Please don’t do the mic drop thing.

[@SmartAndTidy]

As a prospective heat pump customer, it puts me off to be told by the installer on the right that they work - but only if someone like him specifies and installs them. These things are totally underdeveloped for the UK consumer market. It doesn't help me to watch smug grandstanding like we're all idiots.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

Big installers like Octopus and British Gas can do good heat pump installs. Heat Geek have a page with questions to ask their engineers.

[@robertstubbs8062]

Heat pumps at present is defending the indefensible. Combi boilers work.thr heat pump guy has an answer for everything he doesn't convince me.

[@flatfoot]

Maybe look at the graphs & the maths & then draw a logical conclusion?

[@johnhunter4181]

We've had a/c heating and cooling the house for a year now. £3.5k to install and no disruption. MCS is a total joke and folk at HeatGeek are completely ignorant of how a/c can work. They know nothing about MVHR. Do they even have a single fgas engineer working for them? BUT another thing HeatGeek don't give a toss about is insulating a house before they start. Draughty gaps around your front door are not a problem for HeatGeeks they're an opportunity - a chance to sell some bigger rads, UFH and oversized/overcomplicated heat pumps. HeatGeek are next gen luddites who spotted the chance to cash in on a public funded gravy train.

[@markfernandes2467]

3.5 k? installed?? lol, pull the other one. MCS is a joke, you're right on that but it's actually OffGem that writes the rules. Heat Geek don't do air to air because the BUS doesn't cover it. The gov is obsessed with Hydronic sytems for some reason. I think you'll find the Heat geeks are all F gas certified. They need to be to install split systems. They aren't MVHR techs tho. They do care about insulation but home owners don't want the cost and bother of installing more of it. Heat geeks are hte best HP installers in the country. Not oppertunitists. There are plenty who are tho.

[@johnhunter4181]

@@markfernandes2467 Two Panasonic Etherea mini-splits were supplied and installed for £3.5k - one upstairs and one floor unit downstairs which covers our quite open plan (150sq.m) 4-bed house. You can get much cheaper units than ours - in countries where this isn't a novel system installation would be much cheaper. It all works because we have good insulation and MVHR to circulate. Ignoring all that MCS nonsense, you are free to install the system you want AND keep your gas boiler, which we use for towel rails in winter and DHW. We can run just cooling upstairs or just heating downstairs or have both heating in winter and this also gives us a backup if any system breaks down. It all works great but HeatGeek wouldn't consider it ...EVER! "HeatGeek" implies an interest in all methods of controlling heat not just a one size fits all installation of Air to Water Heat pumps.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@johnhunter4181the Heat Geek office has A2A, but they focus and advocate for A2W, which they see as better, which is their choice, surely?

[@HA05GER]

The heat geek guy on the end come across as a cocky bell end. Also his fridge analogy was not what he thought it was.

[@rocketmunkey1]

I like the way he cockily tells everyone heat pumps are great and then says he's too busy to fix their heat pump problems, which A) demonstrates how problem prone they are and B) That he's not going to fix them when they do go wrong.

[@HA05GER]

@@rocketmunkey1 yep and they wonder why people won't swap. I could have a gas engineer at my house within an hour and pretty much every single one will book me in even if it means a wait. I would bet that there isn't a single one that will cockily tell me na I'm not fixing your heatpump tough shit basically.

[@rocketmunkey1]

@@HA05GER They're going to go the same way EV's are headed into a tip, Those who did fall for it, are sacking them off and will never buy one again and they are telling all their friends and family how useless they are, the clim ate 5 cam is coming to an end !

[@HA05GER]

@@rocketmunkey1 yeh I'm not convinced by Evs however I think heatpumps have a place. My mum has one in a no gas property and it works fine for her but it's scop is about 3 so still slightly more than gas but cheaper than oil or resistive heating.

[@Jamesp1972]

Bisby also makes ridiculous sweeping statements

[@jamesharrison4503]

Heat Pumps are No good once the temperature falls to -2 they are useless, my Heat pump has been on for three hours and only managed to get the house up to 18.5 c. Between switching off to defrost and then switching the heating off to heat hot water they are useless unless you can afford to keep it on 24/7 which would cost £100 per week which is not feasible on a state pension. Yes, it is a 4-bed timber framed house fully insulated and double-glazed. So I for one will be going back to a gas boiler which heats my house and hot water simultaneously.

[@MT-zn6tc]

Wow - our timber framed bungalow maintained a steady 21degreesC at -2 and it cost us £4.00 for that day. You're probably not using it properly if you only switched it on for 3 hours. They need to heat the fabric of your building. They do cost a bit to get up to temperature but very little to maintain it.

[@alanc1406]

Would it be better to have maybe 2 -3 smaller heat pumps to accommodate different zones and undersized existing pipework as opposed to a large heat pump running 24hrs

[@markfernandes2467]

No

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

its on for 24 hours (standby) but doesn't run 24 hours

[@Felix-st2ue]

Having it run 24 hours means heating the water to the exact temperature that's required to heat the place. The lower the flow temperature, the better the efficiency. So if it's warm and the HP doesn't cycle, it's perfect.

[@haydnlawrence8167]

Roger noshing off geeks not a pretty sight.

[@markellwood4132]

You will never stop learning. £32k a year is a good salary. It is better than student debt and a degree in media studies. You will be doing something useful that keeps the UK working and a wage to look after your family.

[@zteaxon7787]

It is all relative to housing, food and other basic essentials prices and the tax burden, mortgage rates. Given all of those 32k is NOT enough for even someone doing a perfect trajectory in school then starting in business to have a house and family by the time they are mid 20s. If they can save 10k a year they'll have 50K (hopefully each) by the time they are 25. That doesn't buy you anything to live in. Or the car you need to go to work. Or cover unforeseen expenses.

[@zteaxon7787]

I just started making 32k£ gross in Belgium as a utilities networks designer in Belgium and can tell you even here it can not cover the expense of just taxes, living expenses on its own for 2 kids and the wife Maybe Belgium having perhaps the most disgustingly high taxation in the world doesn't help of course. I was given "vacation money" and I calculated the tax on it to be over 80%. Before you get to spend the money where you have to give 21% vat.

[@offshoretinker]

How about a committee to discuss whether gas boilers work? You could not give me one for free any more than you could give me an electric car and free charging. There's more hot air here than any heat pump could extract.

[@edc1569]

You’d complain about a free Tesla with supercharging and a home charger? What would the complaint be

[@haydnlawrence8167]

They don’t extract heat from the air .

[@Ben-gm9lo]

@@edc1569 he would have to take his head out of the sand and acknowledge that times are changing.

[@ktm-bc1dw]

2k will change most combi boilers. 7-10 year warranty bargain. Heat pump 15-20k ish will not be reliable. Repair undertaken outdoors 😮

[@robertstubbs8062]

To compare with a fridge is nonsense. If a fridge is too cold you don't have to turn it off you turn it down. I don't care what you say there are curtain situations where heat pumps struggle. Heat pumps aren't ready either.

[@markrobertson4320]

For you to suggest that there is no comparison with keeping something cold and keeping something hot is ridiculous , you need to educate yourself , To start off your education have a think on why an air conditioning unit can cool or heat your house ?