My 17.09 MING x Massena Lab Hour-Hand Failure

[@Nefville]

These things happen and you have to keep it in mind, these are tiny complicated machines and every so often one will have issues. Their customer service sounds excellent however. It's a curious issue; I'm a technical person, I wonder is there some gearing issue where two gears are slipping... actually that would worry me, you might get metal shards where the teeth have ground down that could get in places they shouldn't. I'd be interested to hear what is causing it if you find out. Also you did some excellent troubleshooting with the time lapse, very nice work. Thanks for the vid.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yes, this wasn't my first newly acquired watch that has had an issue. Never had an issue like this before but then again this is only the second watch I've had with a GMT function. Hopefully it hasn't run enough to shred too much on the gears, if that is happening. Also, if those gears are dial-side and most of the other components are shielded by plating it might be low risk (I've taken apart several watches and usually the gears for the hands are pretty well separated, but there are always ways of course for such fine metal shavings to work themselves into the worst of places).

[@OrionWatches]

It seems as if the hour wheel is slipping engagement - due to an insufficient spring to keep it flush/engaged.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

@@OrionWatches I've wondered if it is something along these lines (I had not considered a spring specifically though). In some more manual tests there were times where it would seem to hold. I'll still have them look at it, I can't trust it if it's intermittent.

[@mentalplane]

Actually these things don't happen lol

[@OrionWatches]

@@WatcheswithDennis Try holding the watch vertically and setting the time very slowly, usually there's a certain area where slippage is common.

[@hunterphan5506]

Very well done video. This is a serious issue for such a beautifully designed and expensive watch.

[@keysersoze503]

You are doing a service to potential buyers and the manufacturer. Thanks!

[@joshuagoh1877]

Thanks for sharing the video. Same issue for me too unfortunately. Their response has be prompt and consistent. They also recommended me to wear it for a day for the hour hand to "catch up". I will send it back for refund if the problem doesn't go away. I worry the problem will come back after the repair. Disappointing to say the least. The dial is really nice though. What a pity..

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Sorry to hear about this. Given the nature of the issue I have no context if the repair is easy or not, and if I would think it would "hold" or not. I *hope* it would be a reliable fix. Purportedly many of these are fine so my wonder is if something wasn't tightened down properly or if a wrong part was used somewhere (the latter seems super odd though). The watch is so unique compared to anything else I own I really want it to be resolved so I can keep it. I never expected to have an issue out of a two-handed watch (especially one at this price-point).

[@abdulrahmanshiker3357]

Same issue here ..

[@OldFArt-gx9fh]

Yes, I also have this collaboration watch and yes, the problem is also there. I did not report it, so the failure rate is higher than the 2% you mentioned.

[@watcheswithabdullah]

I wouldn't be so hard on Ming. It's still a relatively new brand with fresh ideas. I would give them a few years to really establish themselves. We've even seen huge blunders made by the likes of Panerai and Tag Heuer. I just hope they learn from this and improve because they've been doing so well overall.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I don't think I've been particularly critical, just focused on reporting the specific issues I've experienced. Their communication with me, as noted at the start of the video, has been quite good. Since this was recorded I've actually already had them provide me the return information. Tracking indicates my watch arrived to their watchmakers today for repair. They've not committed to a specific repair date yet as they want to be sure they can identify a permanent fix. I agree with you that MING has some very refreshing ideas for watches and I hope they do well.

[@watcheswithabdullah]

@@WatcheswithDennis Sorry, yeah I wasn't referring to you. But lately I've seen a lot of videos of people mocking and bashing Ming with their recent movement fiasco. It's definitely not something to be ignored as their prices are quite significant. But yeah, I'm on the same page as you on this! 🙌

[@avarmauk]

I have two Ming watches arriving later this year. I hope they resolve your issue. I’m willing to be somewhat patient to help support a very promising brand. But I hope they see the gravitas of the problem people seem to be experiencing.

[@brendancunningham1182]

Good video. Thank you.

[@christ6874]

Is this the watch that had the system failure when they tried to launch the watch? If yes, this doesn’t bode well. Not the kind of issue for a watch at this price.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yes, they tried to sell via the website twice and it went down both times. Ended up doing a lottery style where they contacted people on their notification list (or who wrote in to them) and offered them the watch.

[@rolexer]

Wow ty sir.

[@avarmauk]

Any update since?

[@WatcheswithDennis]

They contacted me in late August to say they identified the issue and were upgrading a couple movement components (the retaining spring fro the hour gear and the cam and jumper spring profile for the independent hour setting mechanism, specifically). They were having to order those components and they predicted my watch would be serviced and ready to send back to me at the end of October. I've not heard anything since then but given it isn't end of October yet I am not surprised.

[@avarmauk]

@@WatcheswithDennis thanks for the update. I’m glad to hear they are committed to fixing the issue.

[@SinnerAndSaint]

I received my burgundy 17.09 yesterday and I actually have the exact same issue. I also noticed that the lume on the crystal isn't that good. Not a problem with the latter I think. That said I'm still very disappointed. They delayed the delivery for months (!) and said they will fix the hour hand issue that occured on some pieces. Now I receive a faulty 17.09 half a year later. That's unacceptable! I didn't reach out to Ming yet but will do asap. To me it looks that they were unable to fix it yet and that the pressure was to high so that they decided to ship the watches anyway. Btw. I'm actually more surprised that this happens anyway. Because it was not Ming but Schwarz-Etienne that modified the movement for them! And they are a well known watch movement manufacturer that are also doing some really high end stuff. So I'm really quite surprised that this could ever happen. If they now have really identified the issue according to the technical details they released it's clear that the movement was modified under pressure to produce them in time. SE should otherwise have known better. I'll try to keep you updated here.

[@avarmauk]

@@SinnerAndSaint oh no that’s so sad to hear. I received my 17.09 in blue a few weeks back. I guess I was lucky as I didn’t see any issues with the hour hand. You right that these issues are down to SE. And this really shouldn’t happen, since this type of mod should be child’s play for such a watchmaker. I hope Ming sort out this mess, I can’t begin to understand how disappointed you must feel. Good luck

[@SinnerAndSaint]

@@avarmauk Thanks! No big trouble with the issue itself. It's more about the communication and that I actually receive a faulty watch so late on. I also wonder what Ming is doing with the already shipped watches. It seems that they only repair the ones that are being claimed by the customers. Which would be a bad thing. Because if they identified some mechanical issues or better a solution to avoid those issues (as they claim) it is clear that every other Ming 17.09 without the fix may potentially fail at some point. Because if it's the way they tell us it is something that needs to be fixed. So I don't believe that there are any early 17.09's out there where this will NEVER happen. I don't say it affects EVERY watch but it could potentially when just examining the current known facts. And that would be a really bad thing, also for the secondary market. Because then people know about the issues and of course want a proper working watch and not one of the faulty ones.

[@davidhfriedman]

Is this also an issue with non-massena 17.09 watches?

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I've not heard of an issue yet outside the Massena ones but I don't know how many shipped. Some people are concerned as I believe a big batch are due out in 2022.

[@SinnerAndSaint]

To keep other potential buyers informed I wanna give you guys a quick heads up here as well. I assumingly still had the issue on my burgundy 17.09 which I just received two days ago. I was disappointed that they didn't seem to fix the issue at all! But they DID! Well, kinda... I already commented this on the actual 'failure video' from Watches with Dennis so please read carefully if you want to know the details: It really seems that I forgot to do the 'backwards crown rotation' trick in the 2nd crown position while playing around with the independent hour hand feature when I got the watch. Never used it later on while doing my observations. Just after our last comment conversation yesterday I checked again to make sure the 'rocker' was disengaged in the 2nd position. After that I let it alone and checked what the hour hand is doing. Now I can confirm that the hour hand DOES catch up as it should be! Which means they 'kinda' fixed it. For me as an owner it's not a big deal if you know this and follow the instructions. But you can't really say that they actually fixed the issue. It's clear that the use of the independent hour feature does lead to an hour hand drag if you not disengage it MANUALLY with the move described above. This will definitely trigger some discussions on the secondary market as sellers need to explain the whole story to the potential buyers to make sure that it's not an actual issue anymore and more of a peculiarity of this modified movement. I think you can see it like the Oris calibre 400 'issues' Oris does claim it's not an issue but a peculiarity of their new movement. They may be right - for me it would be annoying. On my Ming I can live with it, anyways. I think the whole story shows that there is a reason why so many brands (even higher end brands) are using base ETA / Sellita movements. Doing your own movements does really bring new challenges many never thought of before. That's why I really respect a good base ETA or Seiko movements because these things are tried & tested and are running for decades! Maybe this will help those who are interested to understand the current situation with this 'issue'.

[@jameskwon7617]

This is a known problem with the Ming. They are using a GMT movement and using the GMT/UTC hand as the hour hand. That is why you can quick set the hour hand. The GMT/UTC hand was never meant to be used as an hour hand, and most likely would have to be re-geared to run on a 12-hour rather than 24-hour cycle. If they used a 12-hour GMT movement (like some Sinn models), the GMT hand still should have never been used as the hour hand. I don't think it's meant to be as precise as the hour hand. Anyway, Ming has a lot of work to do if this is the root of the problem.

[@SIMETHESHAMAN]

Is it a GMT watch? Where is the 2nd timezone? If not why? Just so they can have an hr jump as a setting feature?

[@WatcheswithDennis]

It's a GMT movement but not a GMT watch. My understanding is they mounted the hour-hand where the GMT-hand would go, modified the GMT hand to take 12 clicks to round the dial rather than 24, and thus achieved a sort of jump-hour (sort of because it does only jump forward, not both ways).

[@tbd1613]

Unsure, however, all the problems seem to associated with the black dial version. I was one of the lucky ones to receive the honey gold and after checking mine, I did not have the problem with the hour hands.

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I think someone posted an Instragram photo of a Honey dial with the alignment off. But I've only seen the one.

[@richardsims4717]

Should have got an Ophion Velos.Sorry for the trouble

[@steinb6271]

It's too bad there very recent reactions/responses to both this and some lume issues are not a terribly good look. Methinks they could use some PR guidance before doing much more public response postings...things are quickly starting to go sideways for them on Reddit and TRF (as well as other forums).

[@WatcheswithDennis]

I'll have to check I've only really followed the WatchUSeek discussion (and saw some Instagram posts).

[@truxton1000]

Very strange, one would think a problem like this would be impossible to occur as the hands are connected to gears that always would keep this in sync. Maybe it's due to some kind of clutch that is adjusted too loose. Anyway as this has happened on a brand new watch I just wonder what will happen when the watch gets a bit older and this will potentially happen again and again, I would never buy this watch regardless if it was repaired. I think the design is ugly anyway.

[@biaoist]

subscribed

[@eyeshowyou]

Thats bad...realy bad. Love the design

[@WatcheswithDennis]

Yeah it was a pity. They say they know what parts to replace but I am not to expect it back until late October.

[@ryanbanks4265]

Lol.. you want it repaired??? after hearing mings excuses I would have wanted my money back. That brand is dead.

[@Milofchg]

The design is ok but these are shitters. I’m sorry, just because you have to order them, doesn’t make them special